BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??

Subject: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:10 AM

If anyone can add to this, I would appreciate it.

We watched a tape of 60 Minutes from last Sunday tonight. The middle segment was about a town called Karbala (sp?) in Iraq, a Sunni Muslim town that welcomed the war, welcomed the Americans, had suffered long and brutally under Saddam, and were glad to be a part of "Operation Iraqi Freedom."

Once Saddam's Baathists were out of power, the people of Karbala elected a new city council, a police chief, and settled into what they thought would be a new life. Their chief cleric told them repeatedly to remain calm, help each other, to avoid violence, and to work for the betterment of the community.

Then the Americans moved into Karbala. They disbanded the new city council and threw them in jail. They arrested the new police chief and threw him in jail -- he escaped, and is hiding out, although he was interviewed on 60 Minutes.

The Americans then installed a former Baathist -- from Karbala, a man who had tortured, killed and terrified the people of Karbala for 24 years, and who was a main aide of Saddam's -- as police chief. No reasons were given. They also created a new city council made up of former Baathists from Saddam's regime. All the cops in Karbala are former Baathists.

Several of the Sunni Muslims that the people wanted to govern them have been thrown in the American military jail. Steve Kroft went to the jail and interviewed the Brigadier-General in charge, who proudly showed him around the jail, indicated where Saddam had had people murdered, claimed the jail isn't like that any more of course, etc. etc.

But Kroft had information that the Brigadier-General didn't know he had. He asked her (the B-G) about the prison routine and was told that prisoners - mostly common criminals, but some accused of anti-coalition crimes - are brought in, processed and charged within 72 hours, and then have access to lawyers, etc.

Kroft then asked her about one of the council members, an elderly man with a heart condition, who had been in that prison for a month, had been denied visits from family or lawyer, and had not been charged. She checked it out on the computer, tracked the prisoner's name, and was trying to explain the situation when a bunch of types (US) showed up, made 60 Minutes turn off the camera, and shut her up.

60 Minutes later got written information that the case was not open for discussion, that no reasons had to be given, and that was that. As of program time, the man had been in prison for 2 months, and still had not been charged.

Reinstating Baathists? Denying democratic elections in a small city? Throwing people who are not Baathists in jail?

WTF is going on in Iraq???

(Sorry for an extra-long post - I may have a few details wrong, but the essential story is correct.) Anyone know any more about this disgusting story?

Edit: Just found a link, and I'll make a clicky at the bottom.

From the link:

"When the U.S. Marines pulled into town, their American commander decided to install as police chief Gen. Abbas Fathil Abud, a high-ranking member of the Baath Party, who had served Saddam for 24 years.

When 60 Minutes arrived at his office, he was closeted with U.S. military officers and protected by American troops.

"There is a lot of cooperation between us and the American military police," says Gen. Abud.

Even though Ambassador Paul Bremer is on record saying that no high-ranking members of Saddam's old Baath Party will hold power in Iraq, in Karbala, the U.S. government is cooperating with Gen. Abud and has put him in charge of a well-armed force – even though he is a Baathist.

"The decision is Mr. Bremer's. He's the decision maker and he can make an exception," says Abud.

Neither Ambassador Bremer nor the Marines would discuss any aspect of their role in Karbala."

Karbala Story

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:14 AM

dunno, don't know nothing about it, don;t really give a shit either.john

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:16 AM

ps, fed up of hearing about it, tjis is music sight, not iraq sight.john.
who do you think will won folk singer ogf the year award tonuight?

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:33 AM

She said "Hell" jOhn, not "Hull".

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:43 AM

during a war shit happens, join the army expect shit to happen, deal with it or leave the army, full stop, its your job, cope with it, and get a grip, its waht your paid for. if your not in the army, keep your nose out, and let the soldiers deal with it, war is not pleasent, do not concern yourself with the details.john

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:50 AM

"made 60 minutes turn off their camera",
do "60 minutes" have an unconditional right to film every trial in every country in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:32 AM

jOhn from Hull---the posting by guest pdc asks some serious questions, and hardly deserves the trivialisation that you brand it with. And in case you are really as lost as you seem, this is NOT a "music" forum. That one is above. I don't think your remarks do much credit to many thousands of service personnel who, while they may indeed be led by idiots and sadists, must surely feel damned by some of the actions they are compelled to take part in. I am of the belief, by the way, that no matter what truths have already condemned the unilateral assault on Iraq, and no matter what further truths become evident, the Iraqi nation is intended to be permanently under the influence of the USA and its retinue of crawlers. I must give them all credit for their delay in revealing the "finding "of the WMD cache/caches, however. It takes time to build a plausible scenario. [I see they've come up with an Iraqi "general" who is happily proclaiming knowledge of the existence of such caches. Now that could be the beginnings of "preconditioning". He'll be rich for life, that one!]

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:45 AM

Qoute "the posting by pdc asks some serious questions"
sure it does, but is a folk music discussion forum the right place to ask those questions?
I have no problem with the questions been asked, but is this website the best place to ask them?
You may feel that I am trivialising the matter, that is your perogative,
surely it is better to ask such questions to your MP/Senator?

For what it's worth, i'm against this war, we area folksingers/musicians waht can we do about it?
does posting our opinion here really make any difference to waht happns?

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM

> segment was about a town called Karbala (sp?) in Iraq, a Sunni
> Muslim town that welcomed the war, welcomed the Americans, had

Apparently someone did incredibly bad research into the subject.

I did not watch the story; so I can not speak to the accuracy of the U.S. setting up a baathist; but I need to point out two facts.

the Suni branch of Islam was located in the center of Iraq had things pretty good. Their members were in every level of the government, and Saddam professed to follow the Suni branch of the Islam religion.

It was the Shia branch of Islam in the south of Iraq, and the Kurds in North Iraq that was savagely opressed by the Baathists.

For some people politics is more important than doing what is right. and since about 90% of the new media is Democrats, and George W. Bush is a Republican; they try to put Mr. Bush in the worst light they can.

A few days ago; I told Daylia on the phone the reason that I canceled my subscription to the state-wide newspaper.

A few months ago Mr. Bush was meeting with some foreign official, I received early in the early morning edition of the paper, and a friend of mine 50 miles away receives a later edition of the paper.

In my paper; it showed the two leaders sitting together.

In my friend (Bobby) newspaper; it showed another picture of Mr. Bush with his eyes closed to imply that Mr. Bush was asleep and not paying attention to what the other gentleman was saying.

Right now; the chain store Kohl's is supporting a call in contest on radio stations. Well these ads are offensive to me. It has someone imitating the voice of George W. Bush. In these ads; the George W. Bush imitator says some things I find very offensive. Here are two examples.

"Who the hell would name their kid Marvin?"

"Remember the $87 billion spending project for Iraq? I socked a little away for you and me right"

People that do not listen closely enough will assume it is President Bush, and believe that he really did have that spending project passed through congress so he could line his pockets with that money.

That $87 billion od spending. That money was NOT for Iraq.

$20 billion of it was for nation building in Iraq.

$67 billion of it was for the U.S. Military in order to prosecute the war on terrorism in Afghanistan AND Iraq.

The Democrats were absolutely right that $20 billion for Iraq SHOULD have been loans instead of grants. France, Germany, and other countries did not forgive the debts that Saddam Hussein and the Baathists ran up.

It is not right for the U.S. Taxpayer's money to be used to pay the debts run up by a regine that is no longer in power. Furthermore; Iraq is rich in natural resources, and could repay the debt from the sale of oil.

I am telling you this to demonstrate the point "Things are not always as they appear."

I am not a yes-man for President Bush or anyone else. If I could vote for anyone I could as president; I would vote for Margaret Thatcher (the former prime minister of the UK, Colin Powell, Jean Kirkpatrick, Condaleeza Rice, and about 100 others before I would vote for George W. Bush.

However of the 10 people that are running for president; I will either vote for Joe Lieberman or George W. Bush. These two gentlemen of the 10 DO understand the following quote "Evil is what happens when good people decide to do nothing.

No matter whether you like President George W. Bush, or hate him; I ask that we can all come together and pray for the best possible outcome (for all concerned) for the world.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

My bad -- I said "Sunni" muslims when I should have said "Shi'ite"

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:30 AM

People that do not listen closely enough will assume it is President Bush...

Will these be the same people that believe Saddam and Iraq had something to do with the Twin Towers?

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:44 AM

Yes, it was the Sunnis who were the faction most closely allied with the Baath Party.

For some reason, a great many Americans seem to be under the impression that the US media has a "liberal" slant on things...(noting your comments, Two Bears).

That's not the way it appears from outside the USA. Quite the contrary. The US media appears to be in conservative lock-step most of the time, just a little to the right of Benito Mussolini when it comes to their perceptions of correct foreign policy and how to deal with other parts of the World in a fair and sensible manner.

However, I wouldn't doubt that there are political games being played between supporters of the Democrats and supporters of the Republicans all the time...with the intention of making their opponents look bad.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:27 PM

Just a follow up to what Little Hawk has written. Unbeknonst to many folks the Federal Communication Comission (FCC) headed by Colin Powell's son, Michael, has been lobbied very heavily by the media to drop the 5 remaining regulations on media ownership. These same folks have contributed heavily to George Bush and other Repubs and minimally to the Dems. And the media has gotten it's money's worth as the Bush administration has been all in favor of dropping these regulations. Might of fact, they have bent over backwards to do it under the radar. Problem is that the lone Dem. appointment on the FCC has held at least two, and perhaps three, unofficial hearings on the matter and gotten the issue some attention and then the Senate got involved and reversed Powell's decision to drop the regs... This is politics at its worse but does explain why media has given Bush a *pass* on everything from refusing to bring up the fact that Bush is an alcoholic (recovering) during the campaign to hiding White House retractions deep inside the paper. It's now wonder that a large percentage of Americans still believe one or more of the *Big Three* lies that were used to whip the country into a lather to invade Iraq. Yeah, the *lies* are printed in the headlines and the retractions, if printed at all, buried... It is a complete falicy to think of media as siding with Dems... It's beyond joke level... They want, like Bush, the *power* to control *everything* and they've found someone who is perfectly willing to assist them...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM

In related stupidity, the Iraqi organization responsible for tallying the number of civilian casualties has terminated that count, and will not be releasing any data. This was done at the request of the department head, and apparently also at the behest of the Coalition.

I guess once they hit 3k they decided that the news belonged with the pictures of returning coffins...

Sorry for the lack of cite, but Yahoo news moved it off their front page after an hour. Can't find a link any more.

Gotta love it. Bury the info and maybe everyone will forget that thousands died not only because of Saddam, but because of America...

M

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

GUEST,pdc, I also saw the story. Disgusting. I had an actual visceral response to the smug smirk on the face Gen. Abbas Fathil Abud, the gink they put in charge. I'm a pretty peaceable sort, but I wanted to slap that supercilious smirk off his fat face.

What the hell do they think they're doing over there?

By the way, jOhn from Hull, if you're not interested in the discussion here, there are lots of threads in the top part of the page for you to look at.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,PDC
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:11 PM

Two Bears said:

"I did not watch the story; so I can not speak to the accuracy of the U.S. setting up a baathist;"

That's why I provided a link -- the entire story is there.

There have been a lot of outrageous acts performed by this administration. There has been a lot of behind-the-scenes sneakiness and covert behaviour. But this story about reestablishing a Baathist regime is not only illogical and irrational, but blatantly flies in the face of all the rhetoric that supports this invasion.

Can anyone answer why on earth the Americans would put Saddam's people back in power?

I shall retire to Bedlam.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:19 PM

It's a precondition of absolute control: Get the press, get the communications systems. Why are people surprised? Most of the internet is channelled through two places in the world. I would posit that Fort Meade is one of those places. Do you really think your URL isn't logged, or that the military/security apparatus of the US doesn't monitor sites like this? Someday we will wake up and not be able to post or e-mail. Scary, huh? Then the various media will inform us of what's goin' on. Then we will regret having let this s##t happen. Gotta love it. Call me crazy on this site. A few years from now you won't be able to--not on the internet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM

John from Hull is just in a pissy mood because his plans to host an all-lesbian songfest at Durty Nellie's fell through completely and his dog isn't talking to him either. Serves the silly sod right, I say! You can only get away with criminal sloth so long before it kicks back and nails you right in the goolies...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:28 PM

Are the goolies what I think they are? Never heard them called that before--if they are indeed what they seem like they might be, if you know what I mean. Are they like "Goolies, said the Queen; if I had 'em I'd be King?"

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:46 PM

From the article mentioned above: A major investigation of Iraq's wartime civilian casualties was compiled by The Associated Press, which documented the deaths of 3,240 civilians between March 20 and April 20. That investigation, conducted in May and June, surveyed about half of Iraq's hospitals, and reported that the real number of civilian deaths was sure to be much higher.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_civilian_casualties_3

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:18 PM

Linked...

Iraq to stop counting civilian dead

M

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

Errr ! Logic block !!!

1/. The people of Iraq are rising against American occupation.

2/. A peoples uprising must be treated as as an insurection and combatants given the rights of Prisoners of War.

3/. So how can you have civilian casualties.

Answers on a postcard please ?????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:40 PM

hAMshter9s. . . I onlY wanNA talk about hAMsters(

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:00 PM

Ah, Gareth. Then you think that if your country were invaded and you and your neighbors took to the hills from whence you harassed the occupying forces, upon capture you should all be stood against a wall and shot? Does a citizen not have the right of protest and resistance?

When a citizenry in toto rises up and resists, I think it's a pretty good indicator that something is not as it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM

I suppose one might consider that initially the Allied troops were going in to oust Saddam Hussein and the gang. Now, maybe it looks like the Allies enjoy the climate and want to set up shop. Maybe, if I were an Iraqi, that would pee me off. Again, it's another CF in which people are getting killed over and because of an ill-defined objective. Again, it's the f##kin' civilians calling the shots and the boys and girls paying the price.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:56 PM

"Again, it's the f##kin' civilians calling the shots..." brucie, my point is that it should be the civilians calling the shots. They are the ones who live there and they will be there long after the current administration is gone.

This will be true until that utopian day when disagreeing rulers will go out and fight each other mano a la mano, leaving the citizenry out of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:25 PM

From PDC's post of 10 Dec 03 - 02:11 PM:...reestablishing a Baathist regime... blatantly flies in the face of all the rhetoric that supports this invasion.

That's because all the talk of democracy is just rhetoric, and empty rhetoric at that. We would have a much better understanding of what's going on in Iraq if, every time anyone from the Bush administration says the word "democracy", we were to mentally substitute the word "control" instead. They seem to be remarkably confused about what "democracy" means. I think they believe it means "you can elect whoever you want as long as it's who we want you to elect". Sounds a wee bit like the "elections" they used to have back in the good old USSR to me.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:10 PM

"Can anyone answer why on earth the Americans would put Saddam's people back in power?"

I don't know....hmm...let me guess?...hmmm...Maybe they don't want nice guys, pdc. If you are a mafia thug, you prefer to work with others of your ilk. God forbid that someone be democratically elected there. Real democratic institutions would be an anathema to this current regime, they like puppet shows!!!! Which probably explains why Howdy Doody is in the oval office and why, whenever he's talking, you can see Rumsfeld's lips moving.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:49 PM

Ebbie: I couldn't agree more. I think it was Twain who said words to the effect that wars would end when rulers met each other in duels, and the winner take all. But Twain's idea wasn't pistols at twenty paces--he thought Gattling guns at twenty paces would be more equitable.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:14 AM

Maybe the reason the USA wants to put Saddam's people back in power is because the USA put them in power in the first place - they just want the same people in power without the independence demonstrated by Saddam.

To avoid confusion - I am not suggesting thst Saddam be brought back so he can demonstrate his indewpendence again.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 05:01 AM

It has happened before:

At the beginning of the war when the Germans were rambling all over the place lots of the national coppers stayed put.

Liberation of Java at the end of the Second World War - the Japanese although defeated remained as the civil administration, police, army the whole shebang under the command of Allied senior officers.

Same thing in East Germany - joke was Hitler's ex police just changed caps. Head of criminal police in East Berlin was quite high up in the SS Krimpo (?) All done on the premise that ordinary/normal crime still goes on and a good copper is always a good copper and they know the turf

If the guys (US) who came in and didn't know about the background, they might of viewed it rather cynically as a stitch up and removed them as the people in power on arrival thinking THEY were the former ones in charge - bit of a stretch of the imagination that one, but no way of knowing what the riding instructions were at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:37 PM

Ha Ha, Gareth. Another bit of pathetic right wing sophistry. You're saying that the ENTIRE population of Iraq has risen up against the US occupation, so EVERY person in Iraq is by definition an enemy combatant. Two problems with that

1) according to our government (you know, the ones doing the killing) only a small minority of Iraqis are rising up. The rest are happy with their "liberation."

2) Even if the revolt is much more widespread than Bushies admit, can they simply kill, say, a five-year old girl without checking first to see if she had really risen up in revolt? Obviously SOME of the people involved will be classified as civilians, by any boneheaded definition you care to invent for your own convenience.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 12:54 AM

What the HELL is going on in Iraq??

Can you say "Viet Nam"? I've even heard some of the old phrases. Body count, hearts and minds, etc. Once again we see evidence that someone has not learned from history.

Two Bears - "For some people politics is more important than doing what is right. and since about 90% of the new media is Democrats, and George W. Bush is a Republican; they try to put Mr. Bush in the worst light they can."

Actually whether they are Republicans or Democrats is immaterial. They are reporting the events. Bush sent our young men and women to Iraq for no good reason, they are getting killed over there, and there is nothing anyone can say or do to prove that their deaths are justified. As for bias in the news, it goes with the territory. You have to expect some. Anyhow, new schools in Iraq doesn't sell as much soap as the deaths of American soldiers.

Two Bears - "People that do not listen closely enough will assume it is President Bush, and believe that he really did have that spending project passed through congress so he could line his pockets with that money."

Well, actually it was to line the pockets of his buddies, the ones who will pay him a handsome wage once he leaves the White House.

Then there was the comment about the "...smug smirk on the face Gen. Abbas Fathil Abud..." I have had the same reaction, when I see the smirk on George Bush's face.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 05:52 AM

I heard US President George Bush made an official announcement today regarding his plans for when Gulf War 2 is over. First on the list was the division of Iraq into three provinces: Leaded, Unleaded and Diesel.

fred

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 11:42 AM

You can't believe anything that this administration tells you.
It makes Clinton's whoppers seem like nothing.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:20 PM

Frank, I think Billy's intern wouldn't agree, but what he did for the cigar is certainly worthy of mention.

"When a war between nations is lost,
The loser, we know, pays the cost." (Buffy StMarie from Universal Soldier.)

So, regardless what the Bush administration says, we know what's gonna happen. It has ever been thus. The nice thing about knowing someone is a liar is that it then allows ya to 'trust' what they say. It's simply a matter of reading what ain't written down or hearing what ain't spoken aloud. We know he uses the West Virginia slide rule (thanks Bobert and Gareth).

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:09 PM

Yeah Viet Nam, I always thought it meant Vietnamese Country (Nam means country in Vietnamese), but was re-educated - it's Vietnam (like one word you know?) - now go figure how near 40 years of teaching can be all wrong.

If the french had done their job none of this would have happened.

It's all those danged Vietnamese Vets (as in dog doctors) that's causing the problems. Knew it from the git go -

Poor dumb bustards anyway -

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:59 AM

Ebbie 10 Dec 03 - 08:00 PM

"Then you think that if your country were invaded and you and your neighbors took to the hills from whence you harassed the occupying forces, upon capture you should all be stood against a wall and shot?" Does a citizen not have the right of protest and resistance?"

Under criteria defined by the "invader" upon capture you may very well be stood against a wall and shot.

"Does a citizen not have the right of protest and resistance?"

A citizen does a right of protest and resistance - that citizen exercises such rights in the full knowledge, depending on the circumstances, of what the consequences of such protest and resistance will be.

"When a citizenry in toto rises up and resists, I think it's a pretty good indicator that something is not as it should be." Very true, and based on that it can therefore be illustrated that things aren't too bad in Iraq, as citizenry have not risen and resisted in toto, far from it.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:05 PM

Hey Brucie, Monica didn't have it so bad. I think she got the best of the deal. Bill didn't do anything that JFK wouldn't have done.
It's just that the Religious Radical Right Wing nailed him for it so they could put their guy in office. Hillary was right!

As to what is going on in Iraq, it's pretty clear that Americans are not wanted there. The longer they stay the more unpopular they will be with the people who want their country back. (The nerve! :))
Does anybody see Iraqi oil rebuilding their country? The lines at the pump are long these days. And the price of gas?

The Pentagon isn't the only one being overcharged by Halliburton.

Anyway, it's been going on long before the Iraqi war actually took place. It was planned by Perle and company much ealier. They just had to find a convenient way to do it such as by lying about WMD's.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:55 PM

What the HELL is going on in Iraq.
Bush and Blair are trying to "Democratise" the whole of the Middle East,and Saddams Iraq was an easy touch.
Western style "democracy",is the Wests only defence from Islamic Fundamentalism. If it is accepted by the people, it will weaken the power of the clerics and ultimately, destroy Islam.   However ,it is a dangerous game.    As I stated in another thread, these fundamentalists do not fear death ,they actually welcome it .
Almost every one now recognises that these people have "sleeper cells" in every major city in the west.
This is the scenario...The fundamentalists acquire from Eastern Europe, Smallpox, or some other virulent and fatal disease.Their cell in London are given a sample,and two of their number are infected voluntarily.They travel all over london for a week,before symptoms appear and infect thousands of people.Within a further week London closes....Health service cant cope...Public transport stops...Business confidence evaporates.
A week later Bush gets a message saying...The New York cell is in place and ready to go,followed by the Paris cell,ect ect.
Collapse of Western Society....
This scenario is not a wild flight of fancy, but a very simple scheme to put into operation.This is what scares the shit out of Britain and America.
In my opinion ,the only way to deal with Islamic Fundamentalism ,is not to force them to take drastic measures,but to compromise, give a little and hope the climate changes for the better...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:23 PM

There's a possibility of your terrorist "plague" scenario, akenaton, but I believe it far more likely, that a "plague scenario" would arise spontaneously and be spread unwittingly by non-terrorists, witness the SARS epidemic.

Paranoia is a weird and dangerous thing, it skews your perspective regarding other more likely dangerous possibilities that result from being alive. But then, "paranoia" is useful in preventing populations of nation states from fully grasping what's really going on.

Carrying your reasoning farther, I suppose because most of the virulent flu viruses and such, tend to arise in southeast Asia and China, the West should get back in there too and do a bit of "premptive restructuring".

I'm sure that there are a lot of fundamentalist Buddists that live in very crowded conditions with their livestock and poultry, who eat very weird things and practice an odd form of medicine by our western standards, that need straigtening out too, in order for "us" to feel really safe.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:39 PM

Please note that the thread title concerns why the Americans are re-installing the Baathists in positions of power. I think the thread has wandered a bit -- and that issue should be of some concern, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM

sorry pdc, sometimes ya just gotta break the rules or one circles in an ever smaller spiral until one is in danger of flying up one's own asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:40 PM

PDC...That is exactly what I was getting at in my post...
The danger to western capitalism is not Saddam and the Baathists, but Islam which is seen as an obstruction to Globalisation.Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:08 PM

Another item, roaming carloads of thugs are abusing women. Women still have little status in Iraq and less now that the Americans hav taken over. Women are afraid to go out of their houses for fear
of rape and abuse amoung some Iraqi males.

In short, Hell is going on in Iraq. Particularly for women.

Islam in it's most orthodox and theocratic sense would be a threat to globalization. But Muslims don't agree on the interpretation of the Qu'ran. It's analygous to the infighting amoung the Christians sects of the US where Southern Baptists insist on the inerrancy of the bible as opposed to more modern views. Therefore, Islam, itself is not a threat. It would be some Muslim's interpretation of Islam.

There can be no democracy in Iraq as long as American troops are an
occupying force. Democracy can only happen in a country where
the will of the people prevails and elects to have it. It can
never be imposed by another country and particularly in a hegmonic fashion by pre-emptive violence.

The Shi'ites are not fond of American's occupying Iraq. This should be clear by the Ayatollah's beligerence in Iran. The Sunnis are not fond of Shi'ites and they are both part of Islam. So are the Turks and the Kurds who are also not fond of each other.

There is something to be said for the fact that theocracy is the
opposite of democracy no matter where it happens in the world.

And in every case of war, God is on the side of the antagonist.
I guess Bob Dylan got that right.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:22 PM

The problem Frank, is that the Moslems dont need to be united to cause tremendous damage to Western economies.
Capitalism is not as strong as they would have us believe,and depends very much on consumer and business confidence.
There wont be much of either around,on Friday the 13th....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:34 PM

Teribus - '"When a citizenry in toto rises up and resists, I think it's a pretty good indicator that something is not as it should be." Very true, and based on that it can therefore be illustrated that things aren't too bad in Iraq, as citizenry have not risen and resisted in toto, far from it. '

Funny, Aus TV yesterday showed the US troops shooting into a demonstration of Iraquis (one death I seem to remmeber) - seems they were upset about something like lack of jobs and wanted to walk around in public saying so.... It's just possible that the US media is not showing regular clips of such things, unlike in Australia...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:48 PM

Akenaton, Islam is just a decent a religion as Christianity or Judaism -- and just as indecent. All three religions stem from the same source. Fundamentalists in these religions are the ones who cause problems, and fortunately they are in the minority. You wouldn't want to debate with a fundamentalist Christian, Jew or Islamic on any issues on which you hold a reasonable perspective.

The enemy is not Islam -- it is the fanatic, in any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM

PDC..Islam is not an enemy to me personally,and I suspect, not to you.
It is a very real enemy to those who wish to see the advance of global Capitalism.
Most devout Moslems in the middle East are more concerned with the spiritual than the material,and are influenced to a great extent by the clerics.This poses quite a problem for those who wish to impose Western "values"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What the HELL is going on in Iraq??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:10 PM

I can see the plausibility in Ake's argument. However, I'm minded that the chief weapons of the fanatics aren't bombs & germs - they're paranoia & fear. As I said to Ake privately, I don't think capitalism can be tumbled like this. Certainly, terrorism, even the mere threat of terrorism, can provide a steady drain on resources, but (to use a germ analogy) terrorism is a cold virus, not Ebola! Only if the patient is fatally weak can terrorism destroy, otherwise it only does relatively minor damage.

The only thing I can see killing off capitalism is if global warming turns out to be both true & beyond control. In which case, we all go to Hell in a handbasket anyway...