BS: Lions & tigers in America?

Subject: The Treasure of The Sierra Madre
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:49 AM

I've started reading The Treasure of The Sierra Madre, which is set in ... well, I don't know where! The guys haven't got to the SM yet, they're still in some place there's a lot of oil wells, and the local "indians" are brown-skinned rather than "red" (this is non-pc 1935, OK?). The gang sets off on a trek through the jungle, and are constantly worried about the presence of lions and tigers (which are extensively hunted by sailors and the like).

Were there really lions and tigers there then? (And where was "there"?) I can't imagine that author B Traven, who spent many years in Mexico, would be ignorant onthat point, yet I always thought they were Asian animals.

Lighten my darkness, please!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 08:10 AM

The mountain lion (felis concolor), otherwise known as el tigre has a range that extends from British Colombia east to the Rockies and south into South America. Tigre also tends to be a generic name for large cats.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM

I never thought of mountain lions! I remember now they occasionally featured in Champion The Wonder Horse (or Lassie or something!) Hay muchos, muchísimos tigros aquí.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 08:26 AM

And don't forget pantera onca -- the jaguar. Subspecies are found in Mexico, Central America, Belize, Amazon forest, Brazil, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru...and Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

How could you forget that famous Latin American musician, much lionised, Steve: Xavier Couger.

RtS
(I'll get me poncho....)

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:13 AM

¡Caramba! I suppose it could have Prez Prado in a stripy suit ... This is getting silly now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:17 PM

Jaguars are commonly referred to as tigers in parts of Latin America. And of course "mountain lion" is another name for cougars or pumas.

And whether regerred to as Indians, Native Americans or First Nation, brown is a more accurate term than red when it comes to skin. (More accurate than white for most "white" people for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:26 PM

Mountain lions were also called "panthers" or "painters" by settlers in the Old Northwest, South, etc. Historically, their range was far greater than it is now, extending (I believe) nearly to Maine. Recently these lions have been confirmed in Illinois and other Midwest states -- it could be that they are reclaiming what their ancestors lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:43 PM

The mountain lion--which may still exist in Quebec, and does in the Canadian Rockies--is variously called the puma, cougar and I would think a few other names. There are occasional attacks by the cat on people in Canada--however, they are infrequent. Usually, an adult human can drive them off. Gotta watch your kids in mountain lion country. (I am not at all suggesting they should be killed off. I don't want the vegans mad at me!) Tigers per se: No!

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 05:02 PM

Yes, the tiger reference still seems unsettled. I know from googling that there is a scene where Bogie goes off to check out a noise dscribed as a tiger roar. If Mr. Parkes could give us some quotes from the novel it might help. (My guess is that we're talking about (mountain "lions" and) a central american cat, perhaps a jaguar, as mentioned, ranging up into Mexico but not the U.S.)
-guest

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 05:11 PM

Sorry about the diversion but why are there Kookaburras laughing on the sound tracks in lots of old movies set in all sorts of exotic locations that aren't Australia?

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:46 PM

Because they sound like long-billed parrots.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:51 PM

For the same reason that there are Howler monkeys from South America on the sound tracks of movies set in Africa. Because they sound more like what people think the jungle should sound like than the real thing?

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM

Come to think of it, there ARE tigers -- Bengal tigers, for instance -- in the US. They are found in zoos.

They are also found in places like Lion Country Safari. And they DO get lose.

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Mountain lions do a Great Good for the environment. Around here they're eating yippy little dogs, and in California I understand they're helping to keep the jogger population under control.

By the way, these are true lions, members of the same family as the ones in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:35 AM

Mountain lions have been sighted in our area of the Sierra Nevada foothills of California, including one recent sighting on the property next to ours. We saw some droppings that looked like mountain lion scat, but we had no way of knowing for sure. The only wild feline we've seen was a bobcat.

There was a jogger killed on a trail near here ten or fifteen years ago, but that's the only attack I know of. We keep our eyes open for bears and lions and rattlesnakes, but there hasn't been any problem in the 15 years my wife has been here.

-Joe Offer, Colfax, California-

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: open mike
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:09 AM

Joe, are you near Cool?
in 1988 a mt lion (a.k.a. catamount)
killed my milk goat and earlier this
year my next door neighbors lost a
goat to one also.
see this link: http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=47
We also have bears,
raccoons, foxes, bobcats, skunks and the
wonderful and beautiful ring-tailed
cat, which was often kept as a pet by
miners back in the "old days".
http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=84

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: open mike
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:13 AM

florida panther--endangered species...
The Florida panther (Puma concolor coryi). They have long legs, smaller feet, and a darker, reddish color. Seventy five still remain in the wild, down from over 500 at the turn of the century. Threats that face them are the draining of the Everglades, hunting for sport, mercury poisoning, cars, and a lack of genetic diversity. There are breeding plans that take pumas from nearby populations and release them into the wild, hoping to create a stable population. But as clear cutting continues, the Florida panther will suffer greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:25 AM

There have been fairly regular reports of sightings of mountain lions (cougars) in Kansas since I was a little kid - a looooong time ago; but no confirmable "physical evidence" and no acceptably credible witnesses. State Fish and Game zoologists have generally accepted the possibility that they might have returned to the area; but there has been a persistent "zero" confirmation.

A recent "rash" of sightings got a local zoologist out to search, and within the past few weeks turned up one scat that was submitted to DNA analysis that confirmed it was from a cougar - on the campus of the University of Kansas in the northeast part of the state.

According to news reports, the sample will be used for more detailed tests to attempt to determine the "race" of the cougar, since those in the wild are from a different ancestry than the majority of zoo speciments; but for the present - it's unconfirmed that we have a wild cougar, but we have captured a cougar turd.

[Anything found on a college campus has to be treated with some skepticism, but the KU kids are not known for elaborate hoaxes. A few of their traditional "rival" schools have some reputation for such things, though.]

I don't have the book at hand, but I may go watch the movie again in a little while.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:45 AM

...or, of course, Siegfried and Roy could have been rehearsing on the next sound stage...


RtS
(I'll just get me sequinned cape....)

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:14 AM

Now I've read a fair bit further, I find they are in Mexico (efore they go off to the Sierra Madre). A quote? How about "there are many, very many tigers here"? (From my second post, my own translation).

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

So long-billed parrots sound like Kookaburras, Amos. I didn't think anything sounded like a kookaburra. Well that explains it. Must try and get me a recording of a long-billed parrot. I live in an area of Australia where legend has it that American soldiers released mountain lions back just after the War. There are supposed sightings from time to time, usually when there's no other news. I've walked around in these fairly wild mountains for over 40 years. Haven't seen or heard one yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:29 PM

The range of the Jaguar aka as "El Tigre" extends as far as parts of Mexico even now, and at one time they lived all the way up into parts of the USA. Here's a site with a map of the current range.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 04:47 PM

According to the Associate Press today, a 400 lb. Bengal tiger, kept as a pet (!), mauled a 6 year old to death. The owner, the child's aunt, went somewhere, the child went over to the tiger's cage, the tiger did what tigers do, the uncle couldn't pull the tiger off, the cops were called, the tiger shot and killed.

Recently, a tiger "farm" in New Jersey was closed down after one of the "rehabilitated" tigers got lose. The farm was found to be substandard, and the animals were taken elsewhere. These tigers were former pets or from "animal parks" which were taken in by someone with more love for animals than good sense.

I see no reason why tigers could not have escaped into the wild in the US. I can certainly hope not, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:09 PM

We have Lions and Tigers in Detroit but they don't scare anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:12 PM

Those Lions scare Cincinnati's Bengals, but then again, what doesn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: open mike
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:49 PM

i also saw a news item about a tiger being kept in an apt. in Harlem
along with a Cayman...aligator/crocodile type critter. A cop rapelled
down from the roof of the ;bldg. to shoot tranquilizers at the big
cat before it was hauled away. neighbors below said the urine would
seep thru the floor/ceiling to their flat!

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:35 AM

Joybell, a parrot (long-billed or otherwise) that had heard a kookaburra would probably do a pretty good imitiation. They can live a very long time (Winston Churchill's parrot is still alive at over 100), so it wouldn't have had to hear one recently. There was a truly awful kids' tv programme on UK tv in the 60s called "The Tinga and Tucker Club", hosted by Aussie "Auntie" Jean Moreton; T & T were two koalas, and there was a Wombat called Willie and a kookaburra kalled Katie. (These were probably glove puppets, but who can tell? We're not Australian. I think Auntie Jean may have been a puppet too ...) Anyway, this means that any parrots who have seen it may do kookaburra impressions (or kookaburra impression impressions, if you see what I mean) even after all these years; if it had been sold on in the US, who knows where it could have led?

Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-ha-ha-ha-ha, as we strinophones used to say.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:12 PM

I was born in Detroit, Cool Beans, and I am still very proud of those Lions and Tigers. Red Wings and Pistons, too.
But now, in answer to Open Mike, I live in Colfax, not far from Cool, California. Just across the highway from me is the American River Canyon, one of the most beautiful and rugged places in America. I'm on a ridge at 2,300 feet above sea level, with an unobstructed view to the west. All week, we've had a very clear view of the Coast Range of mountains, more than fifty miles away. The sunsets this week have been spectacular.
If you live in a wonderful area like this, you learn not to mind the bears and snakes and lions and lack of central heating.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:47 PM

Listen open mike.......Regardless of Joe's answer, he is nowhere near cool......Trust me on this.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 02:28 AM

That's a good point Steve, but where did the long-billed (medium-billed or short-billed) parrots, living in the jungle movies, hear a kookaburra? Of course a lyrebird on tour could do a good impersonation. Also a friend of ours running a wildlife shelter has a magpie who was raised with a young kookaburra and she can do great kookaburra. Funny I've never heard an Australian parrot do kookaburra but I'm sure they could. Cockatoos seem to like lines like, "Cocky want a cup of tea?" although nobody has ever taught one to make tea as far as I know. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:54 AM

A research student at a uni over here genetically modified a parrot with some gorrilla genes. He now has a 300lb parrot that grabs you by the lappels, lifts you off the floor until his beak is touching your nose and says, "who's a pretty boy, then?"

Back in the days of the Tinga & Tucker Club, there were a few remote-control tvs around, but they worked on ultrasound, not infra-red. people with parrots found their new tvs would suddenly begin to switch channels after a few days ... turned out the parrot could hear the remote signals, and would start to imitate them. Pining for the fjords, no doubt...!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:09 AM

Hey, Spaw! Did you know that Coolsville is in Ohio? Really is! Just East of Athens, on the river (more or less).

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:26 AM

All I know is that if you see Lions and Tigers and Bears! Oh My! It sure ain't Kansas, Toto...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:36 AM

Yeah Rap.....er, uh.....Mike I do know that! What's worse is that it's only a few miles from where I live!! And BTW, Coolsville ain't qny cooler than Joe is!!!

Spaw (still Spaw)

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:00 AM

Their were Lions in North America in the pleistocene but now they are extinct.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM

...and the old guy in Treasure Of The Sierra Madre says, "I'm glad to hear such tall tales about the place where we are going. That way I'm sure that they have never been there." (A paraphrase)

"Treasure" is a great book. Great film too---as is much of B. Traven's work. His novel THE DEATH SHIP just may be the most dark, sad and, yes, depressing book I've ever read.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:32 AM

i never seen no lions in real life, i like lion programs on the telly,
if i win the lottrye i like to go on a safari to lion place.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 08:15 AM

j0hn
You obviously ain't not heard your MP in the flesh (AND there is statistically more of a chance with him of seeing his flesh).
When you can understand his syntax, gramma, etymooloogy, &/or accint ----- you know he is a-lyin' - his mouth is moving.

BTW FWIW
The New Scientist, in an article on endangered species, quoted sources as estimating that the wild Asian Tiger population to be 5000 tops (and persecuted). The USA Asian Tiger population was given as 10,000. No breakdown as to the captive/feral percentages but it makes yer think dunnit?

Mr USA-average as a conservationist - discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 08:22 AM

helo, my MP= jOhn PRescott, waht you on about?, did he see any lion or tiger?
i dont thing there any in hull.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 01:29 PM

well he does have two Jaguars!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: NH Dave
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

In spite of what has been said and shown on the URL about cougars, there have been sightings of some form of cougar-type cat along the northern borders of NH, VT, and much of northern Maine. Like any sightings the sighters didn't happen to have a camera with them, or the film was a bit dodgy so the result was an amorphous something that might have been a cougar or panther, so we have no hard evidence. Much of this region is fairly rugged country with few people so you don't get complaints of Fluffy or Wooffums going missing - which could also be the result of an encounter with a coyote, bobcat, lynx, or even fisher - large animal of the weasle family - half way between a weasle and a wolverine, but climbs trees readily.

Panthers or mountain lions were common in NH and VT as late as the 19th century, so there is little reason to believe that they might not be coming back.

    Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:59 PM

You may see lions and tigers with enough bears, jOhn.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 02:49 PM

And pink elephants, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM

Though the Eastern Mountain Lion was supposedly hunted to extinction in New England around a hundred years ago, sightings keep popping up. I've heard one in the woods around our New Hampshire home and we know at least one person who has seen one -- while out hunting over 10 years ago. Spotted a large cat on a stone wall out in the woods and thought at first it was a lynx (much more common in this neck of the woods). Then spotted the long tail. Uh uh. Mountain lion. He fired one shot in the air and skedaddled in the opposite direction.

Sightings are becoming more and more common, while the various state governments keep denying the cats' existence. I think someone got one on videotape a few years ago in Connecticut -- eating a deer on the side of the road.

They're shy animals and there are plenty of deer in our woods. I'm not surprised they haven't taken to staging a parade on Rte. 4.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Lions & tigers in America?
From: Allan C.
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:28 PM

As for the "red" Indians...there are numerous thoughts on how this label came to be used. I'll give you two. The word, "red", has evolved from a very vague notion into a much more specific range of shades (including "true red"). For that reason it is not surprising that it was used to describe the skin pigment of the Native Americans the early settlers saw even though "brown" may now be considered more accurate. Some Indians, when preparing for battle, were also known to have smeared themselves with certain berry juices, producing a red coloration designed to make them appear more fearsome.