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BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy

ced2 24 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM
Peg 24 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM
Donuel 24 Dec 03 - 08:30 AM
ced2 24 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM
C-flat 24 Dec 03 - 10:46 AM
artbrooks 24 Dec 03 - 10:49 AM
C-flat 24 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM
Beardy 24 Dec 03 - 12:08 PM
Bill D 24 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM
Bat Goddess 24 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM
Charley Noble 24 Dec 03 - 02:08 PM
JenEllen 24 Dec 03 - 02:09 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,petr 24 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM
Bat Goddess 24 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM
open mike 24 Dec 03 - 04:31 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 04:34 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM
Donuel 24 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,heric 24 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM
artbrooks 24 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 07:04 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 03 - 07:14 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 03 - 07:15 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,petr 24 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM
mooman 24 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM
Gareth 24 Dec 03 - 07:50 PM
Gypsy 24 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Dec 03 - 08:47 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 03 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,pdc 24 Dec 03 - 09:05 PM
Beardy 24 Dec 03 - 09:39 PM
Amos 24 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM
artbrooks 25 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM
akenaton 25 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 03 - 07:52 AM
GUEST 25 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM
JenEllen 25 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM
artbrooks 25 Dec 03 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,& Concerned 25 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM
akenaton 25 Dec 03 - 04:51 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,& concerned 25 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 08:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Dec 03 - 11:08 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 11:45 PM

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Subject: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: ced2
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM

I understand from this morning's news that it has now crossed the pond! Greater risk from offal than steaks etc. i.e. burgers, sausages are more likely to contain the prion... I am surprised that it has taken as long as it has to surface in the bovine population, it seems to have been widespread in the executive for a few years now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM

Here's a song I wrote about it when it erupted back here a few years ago. A friend bet me I couldn't use write a song featuring the term. And he paid up too:

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
that is why those Frenchies fear to fight us
and there's not a soul in Brussels
munches meaty English muscles,
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis.
    Glory glory allelulah
    British Beef may be peculiar.
    But every patriotic Brit
    eats up every little bit.

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
these are time that surely must excite us,
and those fancy foreign demons
dare not face our British semens
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
    Land of Hope and Land of Glory
    sure our cows are feeling poorly
    but thanks to Mrs T we know
    how a crazy cow can run the show.

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
since we're British they'll not dare to eat us
as the Queen's Own Royal Cattle
are butchered in each battle,
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
    Johnny thinks he's on a dinner
    eating mad cow pie for dinner.
    Litle John turned Desperate Dan -
    would you buy a used cow from that man?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Peg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM

I knew it was only a matter of time. I am surprised it took this ong, actually, but who knows whatthe feds have been hiding all these years...

I amnot allowed to give blood in this country because I have spent more than six months living (and presumably eating beef) in the UK over the last dozen years. No one knows if BSE is spread through blood transfusion, but no one is taking chances either...

Also; weren't some deaths in the UK attributed to BSE found in people who did ot eat beef? I had gathered at one point that it was not exactly clear how this could be spread...

Beef is not such a huge export for us, but the domestic industry will suffer mightily. Maybe people will finally give up the goddam Whoppers and Big Macs once and for all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:30 AM

peculiar / alleluya

very nice.

BSE has been in this country for decades.
US elk and deer herds have been hit very hard.

You know they used to call this stuff Scrapie.

Now that farms are 95% mega corporations, spotting the disease let alone caring is unlikely.

They say the prion proteins are ubiquitous in the soil but eating the twisted protein is always dangerous.

There is a glimmer of hope in fighting this syndrome.
I can post this hopeful research later.
Prevention is tough however since 1200-1600 F is required to destroy the protein should it reside on surgical/dental instruments.



.......................................on the far side : )

One of my favoirte sci fi novels ties together cattle mutilation and prion disease used as an extraterrestrail weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: ced2
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM

Don't let anyone fool you that it is as benign as Scrape.. The farming community in Britain tried that as their first ploy..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:46 AM

I had a definate feeling of deja-vu listening to the American spokeswomen reassuring her fellow citizens that she would be having beef for Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:49 AM

Canada had a case about 8 months ago-nothing since-so perhaps this will be just as isolated. Watching for it and identifying it quickly is a much better business practice than trying to conceal it. Beef is, by the way, a major export item for the US-about $2.6 billion last year. More here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM

I meant to include this link in my last post.

C-flat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:08 PM

From what the spokesman from the US meat Farmers said this morning on BBC Radio 4 they have not heeded some of the warnings from the British experience. He gave the impression they were still rendering products from spinal cords etc and feeding it back to the cattle.
As we learned over here cattle are not meant to be omnivorous/carnivorous.

I hope the US authorities have not concealed the size of the problem like the Tory Govt for 18 months. At the time I was working for thye Ministry of Agriculture at the Central Veterinary Laboratory in New Haw and was processing invoices for Veterinary surgeries around the UK and this phrase kept appearing. When the matter became national news after 18 months MAff denied any previous knowledge and covered up their ineptitude and laissez faire attitude to the crisis.


Stewart


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

it's sad, because there was just an article the other day about how the cattle ranchers have finally had a GOOD year and are paying off some debts, due to reduced supply and increased demand (partly due to the Atkins diet!)...they said 2-3 more years of good prices and demand would offset 4-5 years of drought and misery.

Now this....panic will probably offset any gains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM

It's scary when you realize what's been fed to beef cattle -- not only other meat byproducts, but other "protein sources" including chicken manure. When will they realize it doesn't make economic or any other kind of sense to feed meat to herbivores? And then there's the antibiotics, etc., but that's a whole 'nuther argument.

And when will most people start paying attention to what's being done to their food?

Oh, and then there's some low end ground meat that incorporates the slurry of meat bits that's forced off bone by high pressure water. No spinal cord or such material in that, of course . . .

I try to eat intelligently, but who can AFFORD to? Especially those of us who are "victims of the Bush prosperity."

Makes me spit . . .

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:08 PM

Brilliant song, McGrath! Maybe we can adept it for here.

Yes, the brain and spinal cord, please, but hold the lettuce!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: JenEllen
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:09 PM

All I can say is thank the gods that the prion isn't transmitted by people spouting off about
things they know nothing about. It would be an epidemic of the grandest around here.

As for it being only a matter of time? You can take your Whopper and stick it where the
sun don't shine. Washington beef is a HUGE export. Many of the people I know in this
valley, it is the lion's share of their income. We export massive amounts to Japan, along
with other products, and that trade is in serious danger of being ended.

BSE is different from the TSE that affects cervids. Assuming they are one and the same
only feeds into the ignorant media hype.

The farms and dairies in this area are not all mega-corporations. Many are co-ops of
family farms. Granted, not many do the birth-to-burger ranching anymore, but these are
regular people who are trying to make a living.

There hasn't been any 'ploy' to this point other that the bullshit I've seen on national news
this morning. If you'll accept a timeline from someone who might actually know
something about this, here's how it's played out in our valley:

A dairyman (NOT A BEEF RANCHER--THIS COW WAS NEVER INTENDED FOR
SALE OR CONSUMPTION) had a downer cow. It happens. Broken leg, poor
constitution, whatever. A downer is simply classified by the fact that it can't walk on its
own. The dairyman sends the cow off to be slaughtered. It sits in a lot pen with other
cows until it is slaughtered under a lot number. Because the cow was a downer cow, and
because we have VERY STRICT GUIDELINES for downer cows, the cow's tissues were
sent off to be tested. It happens for EVERY DOWNER COW. It's a red flag, and is
something we do on a daily basis for every downer cow. This one happened to come back
with BSE+ tissues. The slaughter didn't happen yesterday when the news broke.

At the moment, all we have to go on is a lot number---not even the specific dairy where
the cow came from. It takes time to establish a transmission line; whether the cow was
infected here, or was an imported cow from Canada. The feed line is a moot point. All of
the dairies nowadays don't feed animal by-products to dairy cattle. Every dairy I know
feeds soy-based feeds, simply because of the risk of transmission. When the dairy of
origin is established, then the people involved can take steps to reduce further
transmission.

Of course people will be having beef for Christmas. I'm not missing my roast'n'yorkshire
on Christmas for this, and chances are that I have been on whatever dairy this is, and had
my hand up that very cows ass at one time or another. You can subject yourself to all the
media hype you want, but don't seek to infect others with your own personal brand of
poison.

Bill is right, the ranching industry is finally making some headway, but I stress again, that
this was NOT a beef cow. Holsteins are not bred for beef. Outside of a brief time held in
slaughter or sales pens, most Holsteins never even see an Angus or Hereford in their little
bovine lives.

Now, I have to go get ready for a meeting with Ag and Fed types who actually have a
handle on this (instead of crap-media offerings). Enjoy your Christmas with your kin, and
eat whatever you want. If it hasn't got you by now, chances are it won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM

Amen. It is a tragedy here too in Western Washington..I can look out my windows and see cows grazing. I love them to pieces. I pray for the farmers and the consumers..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM

bill d. the US cattle ranchers had an excellent year, not due to the Atkins diet, but the fact that the border was closed (and remains so)to Canadian beef
within minutes of Canada's announcement that it found an infected cow.
(funny that the Canadians have not done the same to US beef, at this point)

its an excellent example of how the economic impact is not accurately
assessed - because if the true economic justification for feeding recycled meat/beef products to cattle - (turning them into carnivores and cannibals) were calculated then it would include the risk of industry losses in exactly such a situation.
(just do a google search for 'economists were surprised' and youll see what I mean)

the Canadian beef industry has lost an estimated 2$billion (imagine a
rancher getting a $1.25 for a cow at the market when it would normally fetch $700) and the US market still hasnt fully opened.
(Japan insists that every Canadian cow be tested- wonder if they will do that with US beef - of the millions that are slaughtered each year only about 20,000 were tested)

even after what happened in the UK a few years with BSE, (the problem is man-made because even though sheep had scrapies for centuries- it was passed on to cattle by feeding them ground up sheep carcasses)
you would think they should ban feeding ground up meat to cattle entirely.

(the irony is also that farmers and ranchers are finding it hard to make a go of it because of the low prices, but I think a lot of people would pay more for grass fed organic beef - also increasing the value for the farmer)

DOnt expect the price of beef to drop, last summer Id go the stores
expecting to get a deal and the prices were almost the same - except the ranchers only got about 25% of the previous price. - go figure


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

Well, I'm an omnivore and not letting this incident scare me. (I'm still concerned about the source of some hamburger and have been for quite awhile. I'm also concerned about factory-raised chicken and the fact that you can't avoid frankenfood these days.) And I hadn't realized it was a downer dairy cow. I know lots more about dairy cows than beef critters, since I'm from Wisconsin.

Curmudgeon and I are having steak and mushroom pie for Christmas -- oh, and cheeseburgers tonight.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: open mike
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:31 PM

the BSE may not be exactly the same as
scrappie but there are similarities.
also similar to wasting disease found
in elk and deer and there is an example
of a similar condition found in humans..
the papua new guinea tribe who used to
be canabals were found to have contracted
a similar condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:34 PM

if there aren't laws to prevent feeding that junk to cows and at least other herbivores, which I truly wish I was, there should be. It is insanity if it is still going on...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM

Jen Ellen, having a bad day???...

I think it should be obvious to anyone taking part in this discussion that small farming operations are not likely to be the ones that are engaging in the practices that lead to BSE...but sadly they may well be affected economically. This happened in Britain with both BSE and hoof and mouth...

I still maintain it was only a matter of time before this happened here; if anything, the USA has the most egregious factory farming practices of any in the world, and at this level is all about the bottom line, and not the health or well-being of animals or consumers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM

I remember 6 years ago the US beef industry sued Oprah Winfrey for Millions of dollars for mentioning BSE on her show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM

we need to realize that farming is the most important thing we do, and we should be doing on a basically smaller scale. When it comes to cows, there should be way more grass fed cattle. We have to pay more for our food period, and we need it produced in more human, sustainable ways. We need to eat more real food and less packaged stuff for sure..shelf life is probably inversely correlated with nutrition and we have done things for the convenience of grocers rather than health of our people. We have to quit gobbling up farm land, driving farming families off their lands..I could go on at length. We need more permaculture, like orchards and nuts especially...we need more people working on the farms as careers. We need better safety and hygiene etc. in slaughterhouses..which I question if they are a good idea in the first place. Smaller farms, roving slaughtering operations that come to the farm...who knows. More inspections. More cost to the consumer, but if it gets high enough we will raise more of our own food, which we should be doing anyway. And to think we are stupid enough as a nation to pave over the best farmland in the world and then import food from countries with who knows what diseases, to say nothing of interuptions of supply lines etc. It all drives me nuts. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

stupid question probably but what happens to a Holstein at a slaughterhouse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM

It is illegal to feed beef byproducts to cattle, and has been for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:04 PM

that is what I thought...stupid as it is you can't imagine anyone doing it...we have lost our collective senses..but in a way that is worse...because then how did the cow get it? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:14 PM

Dairy cows who can no longer produce enough milk are slaughtered and used for pet food and cheap ground beef products like frozen burger patties and sausage and hot dogs.

"Ms Veneman said that only the "muscle cuts" had been sent for processing for human consumption and there was no record of the disease being transmitted through the meat. The brain and spinal column had been sent to a "rendering facility" elsewhere, but she did not specify how it had been used." (Guardian UK)

"Yesterday, Elsa Murano, under secretary of agriculture for food safety, said its brain and spinal column had been sent to such a plant, to be turned into protein feed, oils and other products. It is the brain and spinal cord that are the most likely to be infected with prions, the misfolded proteins that can lead to a mad-cow-like disease in humans." (NY Times)

It does point out the ridiculousness of testing for BSE in downer animals but not requiring the results of those tests before the animal is, er, processed. The infectious prions are mostly found in nerve tissue, but are also present in other tissues in smaller quantities.

To date, the USDA has stalled on releasing mad cow records to UPI for 6 months under the FOIA. It seems highly unlikely that only ONE cow out there in the US has this disease. Just over 20,000 cattle were tested last year, which seems like a lot until you realize we are talking about a herd oF 35 million. With such a long incubation period, it's very difficult to track this disease.

Art, some ranchers have been violating the feed ban, according to the GAO last year. They aren't usually punished. Besides, it's not illegal to render cows, feed them to pigs, and then render the pig and feed it to humans. Calves are allowed to be fed beef blood and fat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:15 PM

...render cows, feed them to pigs, and then render the pig and feed it to humans...

....or back to cows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM

Of course any containment program will be designed to protect the big producers at the expense of smaller, usually safer, farmers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

everything that Elsa Murano has said, that it was an isolated case
and so on, is exactly what the Canadian agricultural minister said
and yet the US shut the border to Canadian beef within minutes.
so what do they expect from other countries?

scrapie is not exactly the same as bse because it is a sheep brain wasting disease - and has been around for centuries - sheep end up rubbing against walls, fences hence the name - but when scrapie infected sheep were ground up and fed to cows in the UK we had an entirely new disease, because that is the only way that cows could get it since normally cows do not eat meat.
essentially, scrapie, bse, kuru (the new guinean human version) and cjd creutfeld jakob all share the same thing - the prion, which is a kind of protein, although not living, it can make copies of itself and is difficult/or damn near impossible to destroy. I understand that
medical examiners shun autopsies of suspected cases as it is not possible to sterilize the equipment.

and as far as I know, beef by-products are still used in feed - they only removed the 'risky' bits, such as spinal cord and brain matter.

correct me if Im wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mooman
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM

TSEs (e.g. Elk CWD) in some of the the native Cervid species (deer, elk) in the US is endemic and has been known about for a very long time. Scrapie was first diagnosed in a US sheep flock in 1947.

What is not yet well understood (and the same applies to BSE and the possible relationship to nvCJD) are the risks and modes of transmission from food animals to humans. There have been several cases in the US of unusually young CJD patients who have consumed a lot of venison but the scientific jury is still out (according to the latest information I have) as to whether there is a causal link. There is ample evidence, however, that TSE prions can withstand the normal rendering process.

Fortunately the situation may be likely to be easier to monitor in the US than it was in the UK due to the current development of reliable and accurate tests (from Switzerland and the UK and laboratories elsewhere) that can diagnose the disease in live animals. Hopefully some of these rapid in-vitro tests may be approved for application in the near future.

Here's a brief update on current progress on developing rapid TSE tests

Regarding scrapie, the following is a very recent summary of known cases:

Scrapie incidence in US sheep flocks

Peace,

moo (an unfortunate moniker in this instance)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:50 PM

Jen Ellen has a veritable point.

I suspect that any ban on America Beef is nore conected with fiscal sanctions rather than public health issues.

Just a little story, which I can warrent true.

In the mid 70's I was working for a firm of Lloyds (Insurance) Brokers. We had a master cointract for the insurance of meat from OZ to Europe and the US Of A.

A shipment of Frozen beef was unloaded at one of the Gulf ports, and had passed both the US inspection at the pacjing plant, and at the point of entery.

It was shipped by rail to Chicago - The train derailed, and the refrrigerated cars lay on the side of the track for a day or two. No power. No refrigeration.

Bluntly when they were salvaged the cartons/carcases were crawling with Maggots acording to the survey of the Local Lloyds Agents.

I was prepared to agree a Total Loss with underwiters and owners.

Total Loss ? - NO! The meat had been passed as fit for human consumption at the point of despatch, and the point of entry.

No problem, wash the beef, and sell it.

Makes yer think don't it.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Gypsy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM

Well, our beef has been banned by Canada as well as the other countries. This is over 3 billion dollars in the industry as of 2003. Stock market is swaying violently. We are in for interesting times right now, i am afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:47 PM

Australian producers have been trying (in spite of Aust Govt attitudes) to stop import of many foodstuffs from countries that have widespread occurrences of parasitea and diseses that are not present in Australia. Salmon, etc.

The WTO has been used to defeat these attempts.

Go figure.

Aussie beef farmers are unable to take up the slack

1) we sell beef to the USA!!!

2) Aussie beef farmers have been seriously kncked about by the drought. So no spare capacity.


Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:03 PM

Mary G...You say "farming is the most important thing we do"
To my way of thinking ,farming ,and especially intensive farming is the most destructive thing we do.
Im afraid the blame for the arrival of BSE,lies squarely on the shoulders of the farmers.I live in a sheep and beef cattle area in Scotland and most of the farmers are well known for love of money before anything else.When i was a boy this area had a mixed farming economy .The farms produced a wide range of foodstuffs, the farmers didnt make much money, but the work provided lots of much needed employment.
Round about the mid 70s the farmers realised that there were big profits in raising beef cattle,so they sacked all their workers, turned their farm steadings into cattle courts,and ordered the BMWs and 4 x 4s.They used anti- biotics indiscriminately,and used meat derived feed because it was cheaper, although they had been warned frequently by scientists, of problems in the future.   Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:05 PM

I don't know where Jen Ellen got her information from, but it is absolutely wrong. The meat from that downer cow got into the food system, and the USDA is attempting to track it down and find it now: all they have said is that it went into further processing.

We (I'm Canadian) import American beef here, and the US imports Canadian beef. When we had our one case of BSE a few months ago, the US shut down our entire export within minutes of the news announcement. They have still allowed only a very limited amount of Canadian beef to cross their border. Japan still won't allow untested Canadian beef. I won't eat American beef because of the growth hormones they use.

There is no chance that this American Holstein is connected in any way to the Canadian case -- it's not even the same breed of cow.

It's time to stop the greed, which is usually the basis of events like these.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:39 PM

JenEllen I feel for you if you are directly affected but if as happened in UK it spreads quickly and without boundaries start panicking now.

Another thing that the spokesman said on BBC radio 4 this morning was that cattle in USA are not individually identified through ear tags etc (I don't know if this was correct). In the UK we had this ID method and still took ages to trace infection lines. If this infection spreads I don't see a quick end due to the inability to trace the spread of cattle across the states. If this sounds pessimistic I apologise but reality sucks big time! However if the US Govt were only testing 20,000 from 35 Million as stated in other posts I would say that smacks of either arrogance or negligence, either of which when the health of the public is at risk is unforgiveable.

Hoping this is an isolated case.

Stewart


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Amos
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM

The panics are being fedf by massive misinterpretation by media, who are invested in their ability to electrify and alarm.

The media tales don't even MENTION this cow was a dairy cow and that American herds are not fed processed cow, but are instead fed soy products. They do not include the time frame in their stories between the time of analysis and the time of reuslts and the time of slaughter.

These critical distortions are creating economic waves far out of proportion to the facts of the case. Those who accept thew media version of reality will live in a world much more frightening than it needs to be



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM

While I don't watch TV, the on-line news from AP, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, CBS and BBC all say she was a dairy cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM

Amos ...The reason that BSE symptoms show up in dairy animals ,is that they live longer than beef cattle.Dairy cattle can have a working life of up to 8 yrs,whereas beef cattle are usually slaughtered around 2yrs,before the symptoms have appeared.
This does not mean that they are not carrying the BSE prion.
In Britain thousands of apparently healthy cattle were slaughtered because of this...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 07:52 AM

Never eat a cannibal cow. That seem pretty basic sense.

And, since in these days you can't trust what you are told by the authorities and shops, for most of us that has to mean never eat a cow.

I believe buffalo is supposed to be very tasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM

if the whole world went vegetarian, and animals weren't factory famrmed, you would never have anything this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: JenEllen
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM

Yes, Guest 12/24, a really bad day.

The briefings yesterday went as such:

The cow was born in 1999---2 years after the law was passed banning feeding parts to cows. The dairy bought her in 2001 and she lived there until she was paralyzed in calving and sent to slaughter on the 9th of Dec. From the owner's lips (I was right, I'd been to that farm before), he said she was showing no symptoms. She was sent with 18 other cows to a Mosess Lake slaughterhouse, tested as downers are, and processed. I assume her meat went where dairy meat goes because she was asymptomatic. Dairy meat does not go into regular processing. It is not going to be your roast, or the steaks at Bennigans or anything like that because a dairy cow is basically a skeleton with boobs. The meat is horrible. It is most likely that the meat went for lower grade consumptions.

As USDA standards require, the response team first quarantines the herd (being done as we speak--the Sunny Dene is under lockdown), the cows will have to be tested. This will require killing the entire herd, and also tracking down the cows that were in the original herd the cow came from before the SD. The animals will be disposed of, and the owners will be compensated for their loss.

Before some other nitwit gets on a high horse, that simply means the meat market value of the animals. It does not guarantee lost wages for the dozens of feeders and milkers that rely on the Sunny Dene Ranch for income. A new herd might be able to be purchased, but because they will only be able to afford fresh cows, it'll take over a year for them to get back on their feet.

It's not a government conspiracy today. Today, it's a whole bunch of families in Dairy Row sitting in parked cars at the end of their driveways to stop people from breaking in and hurting their cows. It's also an entire family at Sunny Dene for whom Christmas is totally lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:33 PM

Thanks, JenEllen-the voice of reason is a refreshing one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,& Concerned
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM

JenEllen

I'm not a nitwit, if that referred to me.

I personally hope all the factory farmers go out of business a.s.a.p and without compensation from the taxpayer, by the state.

If farming practices were sound, there would be no such thing as BSE, Listeria et al.

In other countries, such as India, they treat these animals with respect, maybe because what goes around comes around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:51 PM

I coudnt agree more GUEST.
Intensive farming is a disgrace,but its not only factory farmers who are the villians.Round here its family farms, and Iv watched large doses of steriods administered to young healthy beasts ,simply to put on weight.
Almost every farmer Iv ever met you would think had come out of the same mould.Penny pinching ,avaricious and devious.
I think its something to do with the "market mentality",its a matter of principle to them to be crooked....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM

l Dairy farming here in Washington, at least on the wet side of the mountains, is not factory farming. It is small family farming at its best. It is what America was founding on and hopefully will return somewhat to. Many if not most dairy farmers in western Washington have gone out of business...at least part of the reason is urban sprawl, some is environmental regulation..like cows can't get near streams etc...and some is drop in demand due to dairyphobia. I too hope the insanity involved in meat and dairy production is stopped..by law and by consumers turning to better grown products...I am not for forced feeding, cramped, immobile conditions, antibiotics etc. and not for the slaughterhouse conditions that are horrible for animals and the poor immigrant workers who slice their arms off working there. Actually I probably agree with you. I would like to see small farms, with people making decent livings, with the land zoned for eternity. I would also like to see drops in the population so that there is less demand. We used to have a lot of Swiss people doing dairy here..as well as Danes...you should have seen Puget Island and down where I lived in Longview (which itself was a mill town..not dairy). Anyway, I hope this is one of our last wakeup calls.    I can't imagine the IQ of someone who would feed cowparts to cows.

There is the whole manure question, methane etc.. I think it is quite overcomable, and perhaps is exaggerated..I don't know. I personally worry more about all the cat litter in landfills doing God knows what kind of mutations....

And JenEllen..I thought it was trucked to Centralia..which doesn't make sense crossing the mountains in the winter...it supposedly is in the food chain in Portland stores perhaps as something...at least meat from the Centralia slaughterhouse (or maybe it was just packed there) went to Portland.

I dare say we are smart enough to test at least each herd, and to keep them more or less in once place rather than having these giant feedlots from all over. That too is nuts. Grassfed cows, like nature intended for at least part of the human race. Read Dr. Mary Enig.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM

In India, starvng semi-feral cows wander the streets, through busy traffic, anywhere, leaving little smelly unhygenic presents behind. Even in India, there is dispute whether this reflects respect for the animals, or other things.

There is a charity now rounding up starving cows and moving them out of public areas, and feeding them, but their funds are limited, and compared to the size of the problem, the effect is still neglible.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,& concerned
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM

Robin

If that is so, and I haven't been to India to see for myself, it makes no difference.

I would rather see them clogging up traffic somewhere, than living a pitiless life in a factory farm for the profit of people who don't care about them, apart from the profit they can make.

If you are worried about the enviroment, look around you and see what humans have done to it.

Did any animal ever invent a weapon of mass destruction for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 08:44 PM

some animals are weapons of mass destruction..like flies and rats carrying plagues. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:08 PM

I don't think factory farms are good, or better that India's lousy handling of the mess.

In fact, Cows ARE a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" - all those methane loaded farts - (wait on, I'm stumbling into Spaw's Territory of Expertise!) do great havoc with the ozone layer and Greeenhouse effect.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:45 PM

is the methane problem because the cows are all in one place? If 1 million cows were scattered over 1million miles would there be the same problem as if they were in one square mile or whatever? I think there is no excuse for overcrowding these poor animals and we just have to get used to treating them better, getting better nutrition in the bargain, and we'll just have to pay more. Perhaps much more. That will pose a problem for poor people of course. We need to relook at food stamps so a higher percentage of the stamps is for whole foods, such as meat, fruit, etc., and a very limited amount is for foods with low nutritional value. This will help the farmer and the food stamp recipient. mg


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