Should our folk club be non smoking?

Subject: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:28 AM

I've come in as a guest on this one as its a delicate subject.

Basically our singers club has been thinking about making it a non smoking club. This naturally will not go down well with smokers. I wouldn't mind opinions on this one.
I'm a non smoker, and support a ban but still feel uneasy on the issue. Cheers

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,c,sparra
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:45 AM

Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation and no pipes suits me. Now where's me tabs.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Players No6
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:46 AM

In my experience a high number of musicians are also smokers.As a smoker myself, I would not set foot in a non-smoking folk club! open the windows! fit an extractor! or lose half your audience!

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:48 AM

Democracy says that if most people are Non Smokers, go for the ban.
Commonsense says if All the audience are Non Smokers and most of the singers and musicians smoke, bang goes your club. I know a lot of people who limit their attendance of some clubs simply because of the Smoke/Non Smoke situation. Its down to the people who go to the club most of the time, and has nothing to do with ANYONE else.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:52 AM

Yes all folk clubs should be non smoking, but you'll probabaly lose a lot of members
Chapeltown Sheffield has a lovely club called No Smoke foke, with an excellent following ~ it has won the Roy Castle Award, Roy was a National entertainer for many years who also played trumpet and contracted lung cancer
Singers also need lungs to breathe with!

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:53 AM

I would be delighted to join the half of the audience who stayed.

Some of us are fed up with feeling horrible after a smoking club night just because some smokers won't pop out and have a smoke at the bar or in another part of the venue.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dani
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:02 AM

We have a smoky club down the street: not folky, but they host blues jams, rock bands, jazz improv nights. The smoke is fine there, I guess, but as an ex-smoker I find it a little uncomfortable, and when I go home at night I reek, and need to leave my clothes on the porch overnight!

Our place hosts more folk-ish stuff, and the place has always been non-smoking. People smoke out on the back deck, and bands have told us over and over and over that they appreciate having a place to play that's NOT smoky.

Allowing smoking eliminates plenty for sure, NOT allowing it means some will have to walk in and out a few times during the night.

Tough call.

Dani

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:02 AM

we have four non smoking venues in sydney - the smokers have to go outside. and now smoking is banned in any hotel, venue, restaurant or place that serves food.

next year, every area in pubs will be banned for smoking. they've been bring it in gradually. the venues have survived.

fred

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:04 AM

I'm a non-smoker and hate very smoky atmospheres, but I agree with previous postings, good ventilation can usually help to reduce the problem to a point where it's bearable. One problem can be that some fans make rather a lot of noise though. Linda (who suffers from asthma) and I have often opened pub doors and turned straight round and left because of the smokiness of some pubs though. Sometimes the smell of the smoke seems to stick around for the rest of the day.

There is talk about making all pubs non-smoking areas, but I think that would cause many pubs to close down or break the law. A much better idea would be to impose a limit on the amount of smoke particles in the air. Any premises exceeding this could then be shut down as they could be for other health hazards. Would this be acceptable to smokers or do they prefer a heavy fug ?

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: KJ
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:07 AM

Difficult one, as a smoker & a performer I prefer to visit clubs that allow smoking. However, I don't really like imposing my filthy habits on others who disapprove. Is your club big enough to have a smokers corner or a designated table by a window or some form of ventilation?

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,You only have one set of lungs
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:07 AM

Yes.   I love Irish music but avoid Irish pubs in the U.S. if there is a haze of smoke hovering above in a cloud. I don't drink or smoke but often a pub is where the best music is. What a shame it is that a singer will intentionally harm his lungs and vocal cords with such a disgusting habit (I am an ex-smoker and alcohol drinker).

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,G String
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:13 AM

Listen to the "Ciggy Song" by harri Watts band.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:14 AM

I `ad that Tony Blair in my cab the other day. I asked `im what was `e was gonna do about the non-smoking lobby? `e says I`m gonna support it so as to make people more `ealthy. I says does that go for cannabis as well? `E says nah, we`re gonna legalise it!!

I once rolled a fag for that Bert Jansch in our folk club near Crystal Palace. I dunno what `e thought `e was getting but it was Golden Virginia.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:14 AM

We had one performer refuse to go on because the club was held in a smoking pub. (He was ill at the time, to make due allowance.) Our organiser smokes - the chance of us going non-smoking is negligible! My wife and I would prefer it, but we're only two votes in a non-voting organisation. Them as does the work, meks the rules (and I've no objection to that). Plus we'd need to find a new venue - not easy.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:15 AM

That one upstairs is mine.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:17 AM

I wont hide behind "Guest" on this one. I smoked for 47 years, and what did it get me? CANCER! Smoking is stupid, expensive and fatal. If you must smoke, have the decency to take it out of the room as you would if you had to take a shit!
I MUST breathe, you dont have to smoke.
There is a fine folk gathering at a pub in NH that I dont go to because of the smoke. They have a "smoke eater" but it has a small appetite.I have a dear brother who wont come to my house because he is too damn lazy to step outside with his toxic fumes.
The fact is, in this country at least, only 25% of us smoke. Now, who can argue that the other 75% have no right to breathe clean air?
Your right to kill yourself doesn't include me.
I just lost a good friend to throat cancer, 53 years old. He put off getting examined too long. I'm lucky thay caught it in time, and after 1 1/2 years, there is no sign of it returning.
If I visit a friend who smokes, that's his business, it's his house and his health. I can stand it for a while, but, I firmly believe that smoking should be banned in ALL public places.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: breezy
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:18 AM

I had to hold non-smoking gigs as they were in a straw filled barn.
Funnily or not the barn was ignited by spontaneous combustion during the time we were there one summer.
Always hated the stale stench of tobacca after a night in a smokey venue.
Geoff Pickles from Morley said it wouldnt work.
Well he was wrong.
With children attending it's even more important to be non-smoking.
When I embarked on my project of running a club it was always going to be a non-smoker.
So far so good,and its not that you lose custom its a positive selling point and we gain more than we lose.
And me clothes dont have to be hung outside when I come in at nights.
The story of Roy Castle is true and warnings should be heeded.
Smoke knakkers yer singing voice and breathing.
Stand up and be counted.
Finished,
can I get down now ?

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:18 AM

Only after the fire brigade has put them out.
PP

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Martin from Barton Beds
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:21 AM

At The Bull in Barton we have smokers, but because it is in a Public House and not a room off it we can't ban it altogether, but we try to limit them as much as possible, we have an air extractor and sometimes open the door if needed.This conpromise seems to work well.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:27 AM

Non smoking is the way things are going. Pretty soon it will be taken for granted that any enclosed public place is non smoking, so although I sympathise with the smokers not having their rights, they are fighting a losing battle.

Our folk clubs in Sydney are all non smoking, and they are still going. Make your club non smoking.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:32 AM

All enclosed public venues should be non-smoking, it's about time these selfish people took responsibility for forcing there addiction on other people.
They can't even be bothered to go outside for there fix.
PP

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:45 AM

Non-smoking. No excuses, the smokers have heard the logic and it's unassailable. I have avoided pubs for years because of the smoke and gave up a decent paying hobby of playing in them because of the smoke. The rare time I visit the local watering hole I regret it except for the limited fellowship it brings. I never smoked but my parents did and I hated it since before I can remember, and now that I don't drink I feel like a pariah.

What's so hard about stepping out for a smoke anyway? I gotta step out for fresh air or to take a shit.

Do what you want with your club, but smokers are a dying breed.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:46 AM

There are more non smokers than smokers - and just as many of them want to listen to music.

I left my partner of 14 years (a blues singer/piano player). one of the reasons was that i had reached the end of my limit of tolerance on smoky venues. as the folk ones are non smoking, and i preferred folk, it was an easy choice.

i did not want to spend any more time breathing in pea soup thick tobacco smoke.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:57 AM

I used to smoke for years (50-60 a day at one time), and I know how hard it can be to go without for a whole evening. Nobody's stopping you popping outside or in the next bar or somewhere for the 2 or 3 minutes it takes to smoke a ciggie -- about one moderate-length song: you're not going to miss a lot! I don't smoke now (and I'm well past the self-righteous stage), and I don't like the pong on my clothes after being in a smoky room -- and it only takes one cigarette to do it.

Peggy Seeger sings a very funny song about meeting a guy in a cafe who insists upon his "smokers' rights"; she goes away and changes to an approporiate diet, then comes back and insists on her "farters' rights", and the boot's on the other foot. Just think about it for a moment -- nobody could imagine they'd be allowed to stay anywhere if they insisted on breaking wind at intervals and expect everyone else to put up with it, would they?

Just to clarify Padgett's point, Roy Castle never smoked in his life, but he contracted a particular form of lung cancer that's exclusively found in smokers. He'd worked in smoky clubs and theatres all his life, and it was caused by passive smoking. He died in 1994 aged just 62.

Steve

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:58 AM

I'm speaking as a smoker, in an area that has three clubs that I regularly attended, two of which became non-smoking. I stopped attending.

Maybe the clubs concerned think that's a relief, but I enjoyed attending, and playing at these clubs. But I will not drive to a club in the evening, restricted to soft drinks, and not even be able to have a cig. For me, that makes a crap night.

Now there is only one place I can go to sing a song, have a beer, and smoke a cig if I wish to do so. It has all but driven me from the thriving folk scene in this area. And that makes me a little sad.

Any support out there?

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 09:59 AM

Can you please all stop driving as well, as the fumes are also toxic.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dita
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM

The Folk clubs in Stirling and Glasgow are both non-smoking and have been for a few years.

In both it was as a result of members request and was voted on. Despite the fears no loss of audience resulted.

Both have a separate bar where smokers can indulge without going outside.

A number of artists contracts insist on having a non-smoking venue, so if you are already non-smoking, you have no conflict on the night.

I do know that a number of regulars at both clubs wouldn't/couldn't attend if the venues allowed smoking, so it's swings and roundabouts, you might lose some hardline smokers, but might gain some people who have looked in the door and been put off by the smoke.

If you do go down the non-smoking road, advertise the fact (might get some new folk in), put up signs and have a notice at the door.

Hope this helps, John

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:04 AM

Thankyou, Guest.

Perhaps the US could sign up to the Kyoto agreement while they're at it? And replace their Chevy V8s with nice sensible 1.3 hatchbacks...? FAT chance.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Tony Blair
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:10 AM

You could say that you want to help with my latest no-smoking campaign, the one which shows the smoke and ash as fat, and explains what damage it can do to your body - just a thought.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:17 AM

But it's ok to live on Big Macs, and feed your kids chips every night? I have a healthier diet than most people I know. I have low cholesterol, normal blood pressure, am not overweight, and take regular physical exersise.

Oops, I seem to be going off on one....

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:26 AM

I'd go for non-smoking. I have helped run a club for nearly 30 years now and found I can no longer go regularly because my health now dictates I cannot tolerate smoke:-( Why should I have to give up the club I helped establish because of the insensitivity of a minority?

And sorry, DeanMeister, I don't think you will get much support. Not being able to smoke in a club may make you a little sad. Being able to smoke will make some people a lot dead. No contest I'm afraid.

Cheers

DtG
(Smoked for 25 years. Gave up 10 years ago)

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: breezy
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:30 AM

and if you cut out the fags , even healthier still.

You go to a folk venue for the comaraderie and the music not a ciggie.

Not smoking wont kill you.
.
Its cool not to smoke anyway.

George, you reading this.??
If I kept him singing then he could'nt light up.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:37 AM

my father was a dedicated smoker, and he was damn sure no-one else was going to interfere with his pleasure. He died ten years ago with a cancer on his lung.

My mother, another committed smoker, died of cancer in her 50s, as did all her siblings (also smokers).

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:43 AM

I know, Breezy. I'm just a little fed up with a few things at the minute. Like, did anybody see Michael Buerk's follow up documentary last weekend on Ethiopia? I cried all the way through it. But 2 days later George DUBBYA announces he's gonna spend BILLIONS of dollars on the space programme, putting man on the moon, colonising Mars etc. when we can't even sort all our crap out down here. We send boys to get shot at without sufficient equipment, doctors to fix them without sufficient medical supplies, and millions of people are starving to death. But the space programme is apparently more important to the greatest nation on earth?

Frankly, I think having a fag at the back of the bloody folk club is an inconsequential issue. I sit in a traffic jam every morning caused by mothers dropping their children at school, burning fossil fuel, choking the atmosphere, when they only live half a mile away. These are the same people who whinge about a puff of smoke in their direction.

Told you I was off on one...

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

Oh, and what did the Romans ever do for us...? lol

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Oaklet
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:51 AM

De-Mister, you haven't touched on holiday homes or the deregulation of the buses, yet. [{*!*}] I'll tell you what gets right up my nose. Them bloody Cybermen all over the place, that's what.

And sterilised milk. I hate that stuff.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:51 AM

Both Linda and I frequently drink at JD Wetherspoon pubs. Although these do have non-smoking areas, the air-conditioning is usually good enough to make it quite acceptable to sit in other parts of their pubs.

My worries about an outright ban on smoking in pubs is that we will lose even more pubs as a result. The statistics above (25% smokers, 75% non-smokers) are based on the population as a whole. I think that if you excluded the many people who very rarely go to pubs, that you would would find that the proportions would change to much nearer 50/50. If you then weighted the result by the value of pub trade that the smoking/non-smoking groups provided, I think the smokers would probably provide the higher figure. In the area around me, we have lost a high percentage of pubs in the last 10 years - I can think of at least a dozen within about a five mile radius. I'm sure that we would lose at least that number again if a smoking ban became law.

I'm a non-smoker (well I used to enjoy the odd joint when I was younger) and will not stay in an exessively smoky atmosphere. I don't let anyone smoke in my car, and on one occasion turned down a car bargain because the owner had smoked. There is a low level of smoke which I find tolerable, and provided that this is not exceeded I am quite happy.

I also feel that if the majority of a pub's regular clientele are smokers, then it's a bit unreasonable for a relative stranger to expect them to to change to suit him. After all there are plenty of pubs where loud pop music, lack of decent beer, or just the general decor or atmosphere would prevent me from drinking - why should I single out smoke as anything different. I'm actually rather glad that there's a place for people who like those pubs, as it keeps them from trying to change the pubs which I like.

Folk clubs are perhaps a slightly different matter, but there are quite a few performers who I can think of who are smokers. How many performers would turn down a well-paid gig because the premises weren't non-smoking ? Mind you you, when Joe Stead was younger, he hated people smoking in the front row and would often drop their cigarettes into their drinks.

Finally as was proved the other month at the White Horse, Hertford, there can be other reasons for a smoky room beside tobacco !

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:52 AM

The Kyoto treaty at which our half wit president walked out is irrelevent here. Dean Miester, it's not the non smoking policy that keeps you from enjoying that music, no, it's your own addiction. Face it.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SMOKERS RIGHTS.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:52 AM

Deano, Go and have a fag and strum a tune to calm your nerves, but dont drop ash on your guitar.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:56 AM

I have never smoked in my life (and I'm 57)and yet nearly every week I sit in a pub next to smokers like the the Deanmeister, Ossonflags, Les & Maggie etc. It doesn't worry me. I happily set the pretty low risk from the secondhand smoke against the pleasure I get from playing and listening to other players - life without music, now that would be fatal.

R

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 10:59 AM

IRRELEVANT???? TO WHO?

Puff the magic dragon, lived by the sea....thanks for the advice, SL.... feeling better already.

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:08 AM

Sorry to ambush the thread. It's provided a useful forum to get a few things off my chest (no pun intended!)

To answer the original question, I'm not against no smoking clubs, lets face it, we'll probably all be non-smokers before long. But currently, I wouldn't attend one. Guest, if you're starting a club, you must surely have support and a fair idea of who's likely to turn up and play? If a good proportion smoke, then a ban will kill it stone dead. If they don't, then by all means go for it and long may your club live.

Is that a bit more relevant?

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Bobjack
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:16 AM

Only 57!! Jeez, I thought you were much older!

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:29 AM

Deanmeister (11:08) Yes, much more relevant.

And in answer to your previous comment, "Irrelevant???? To who?"
The Kyoto agreement is irrelevant to this discussion. I happen to agree with the position you implied on that, but it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:29 AM

I find it a little incongrous that many people (Not singling you out here DM, honest, loads do it!) begin to discuss the 'important issues' when discussing smoking bans. Yes, there are many, many more important things to worry about. Most of them are so important that we cannot do anything about them ourselves. Yet, when faced with the one thing we can do something about - people will not do it!

It's like saying "I cannot do anything about global polution so I will continue to polute the atmosphere around me". It is a level of reasoning beyond my limited abilities I'm afraid...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:43 AM

The three bars here on the Open University campus are not non-smoking (about the only places that aren't), but they have very good air filters on the ceilings which (a) pull the smoke upwards and (b) take it out of the air. Now, if you can get soem of these, and designate a suitable art of the room a smoking area, you've mostly solved the problem. How much it all costs, I don't know ...

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:48 AM

Yes...

But you have to live with the consequences...

Whatever they may be...

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:48 AM

Was it Billy Connely that said having a smoking area in a non-smoking establisment is a bit like having a pissing area in a public swimming pool?

:D

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: Bobjack
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:49 AM

Last week I played at a small session that comprised 4 guitarists, 2 singers and 1 smallpiper. We all smoke. It would have been a bloody short session if the pub was touchy feely non smoking!

Subject: RE: Should our folk club be non smoking?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:53 AM

What a dilemma our UK governments have created over many years.

Seriously discourage smoking and suffer enormous loss of revenue from tobacco duty.

Let the good times roll, collect the duty and pay enormous health care bills.

What are we like??