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Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles

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JUDAS


Related threads:
A Song about Judas Iscariot (17)
Lyr Req: My Name is Judas (8)
(origins) Lyr Req: Stand Up For Judas (Leon Rosselson) (27)
Help: JUDAS (6)
(origins) Tune Req: Judas ballad (Child 23) (3)
Lyr Req: Stand Up For Judas (Leon Rosselson) (4)


Lighter 27 Jan 04 - 03:10 PM
Malcolm Douglas 27 Jan 04 - 03:43 PM
Lighter 27 Jan 04 - 04:07 PM
Nerd 27 Jan 04 - 04:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jan 04 - 05:14 PM
Lighter 27 Jan 04 - 05:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jan 04 - 05:40 PM
Lighter 30 Oct 10 - 08:54 PM
wysiwyg 31 Oct 10 - 07:32 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:10 PM

According to "The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles" (1961), Niles collected three versions of the religious ballad "Judas," each with a different melody.

                                  "JUDAS"
                               (Niles No. 16 A)

                1. 'Twas in the merry month of May,
                        The Easter time was near,
                   Our Jesus to dear Judas said:
                        "I fear my time is near, is near,
                        I fear my time is near."

                2. "How near, how near, how near, my Lord,
                        How near your time, how near?"
                   "Thou knowest well, dear Judas,
                        Thou knowest well, I fear, I fear,
                        Thou knowest well I fear."

                3. "Go take thou pieces of silver,
                        Go take thou pieces of gold,
                   Go take them to Jerusalem
                        Where bread and meat is sold, is sold,
                        Where bread and meat is sold.

                4. "Nor tarry long upon the way,
                        Nor seek out folk or foe,
                   But take your silver pieces
                        And to the market go, market go,
                        And to the market go."

                5. Now Judas had one sister,
                        An evil sister she,
                   She hated gentle Jesus
                        For His Christianity-ee-ee,
                        For his Christianity.

                6. "Thou shouldst be stoned, Judas,
                        With large stones and with small,
                   Thou shouldst be stoned for trusting
                        This false prophet of all, of all,
                        This false prophet of all."

                7. Now Judas took a little rest,
                        He took a nap of sleep,
                   He laid his head in his sister's lap,
                        And there he slept so deep, so deep,
                        And there he slept so deep.

                8. When Judas woke from sleep and rest,
                        He sought his sister dear:
                   "Pray help me find my silver,
                        'Tis lost, 'tis lost, I fear, I fear,
                   'Tis lost, 'tis lost, I fear."

                9. Then quickly up spoke Pilate,
                        Then quickly up spake he:
                   "Come sell the prophet Jesus,
                        Come sell him unto me, unto me,
                        Come sell him unto me."

                10. "I will not sell my Jesus,
                        Unless it be for meat,
                   To feed my hungry brethren
                        Who have no meat to eat, to eat,
                        Who have no meat to eat."

                11. "Oh, silence, Peter, silence,
                        Silence, for well I know,
                   Three times thou wilt deny me,
                        Afore the cock doth crow, doth crow,
                        Afore the cock doth crow."

Both text and dorian tune said to have been collected from Mayberry Thomas, Knoxville, Tennessee, in August, 1933. Niles observes, "Mayberry Thomas admitted that in his youth, some verse not unlike the text of his ballad about Judas were sold on broadside sheets by colored preachers in the neighborhood of Chattanooga. He also said that a teacher of shape-note hymn singing named Pushmire once taught the song of Judas and sang it with great energy and noise."


                            "JUDAS AND JESUS"
                            (Niles No. 16 B)

          1. Judas 'trayed Jesus, and Jesus hung the cross,
             Yes, Judas 'trayed Jesus, what a loss, what a loss!
             Judas 'trayed Jesus and died by his own hand,
             Oh trouble, oh trouble, in the Holy Land.

          2. It was the night of the very last supper,
             They were in a room called the small room upper.
             Jesus said, 'Judas, you will 'tray me today,
             Oh Judas, you will 'tray me for gold and for pay."

          3. Jesus said, 'Peter, you will sure 'tray me,
             But not for pay and not for fee."
             Jesus said, 'Come, the cross is on the hill.
             I go to the hanging, 'tis my Father's will."

Text and minor tune said to have been collected from Harkus and Tillie Whitman, June 19, 1909, in Jefferson Co., Kentucky.


                           OH JUDY, MY JUDY
                           (Niles No. 16 C)
            
         1. "Oh Judy, my Judy, hit's time that I go,
            I know you will 'tray me though I love you so.
            Go take of this money and buy us some meat,
            Our brethern are hungry, got nothing to eat."

         2. For pieces of silver, for pieces of gold,
            Our sweet brother Jesus to soldiers was sold.
            "Oh Judy, oh Judy, today I will die,
            Upon that high hill where the wild birds do fly.

         3. "Oh Judy, oh Judy, it's you will die, too,
            Because you did 'tray me when you might-a been true.
            Oh Judy, oh Judy, don't try to deny,
            You sold me to soldiers, and now I must die."

"From the singing of Pete Mulleneoux," age 75, Jefferson Co., Kentucky, July 4, 1909. "He was related in some way to the Whitmans, who lived about two miles away."
                        
                  
Questions: Are these songs genuine survivals of Child's 12th century verses, which have apparently left no other traceable descendants? Or are they adapted from some other, perhaps broadside ballad of Judas?
Or....?

Niles Center? Malcolm ? Q ? 'Catters at large? What say you ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:43 PM

We can't be sure that Child's Judas was ever actually sung, and I'd think it most likely that these are quite separate songs; it isn't immediately obvious that the second two above are even related to the first, though of course they tell the same well-known story. A few other collectors found versions of the second two quoted above, I think. On the other hand, I haven't read either of the two detailed studies of Child 23, and there may perhaps be a lot more to say that I don't know about. Bronson will have been aware of Niles' finds, but did not include, or refer to, them in his Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, which may be significant.

Perhaps you'd like to post the tunes?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:07 PM

Tunes are still beyond my ability.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:41 PM

I'd second Malcolm and say that most folklorists do not believe that JJN ever collected a version of Child 23.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:14 PM

Thanks, Lighter, for placing Nile's lyrics in Mudcat.
Short references to Judas are in a number of hymns and gospel songs and rarely in Negro religious songs in the few books that I have but none approach the story in 16A. I can contribute nil.
I can't see any links in this scant material to the 13th c. poem (Child #23; in another thread errors are mentioned - however the new edition by the Heimans' reports that the Trinity MS has been recovered, and Child #23 is correct in all essentials- see Appendix to #23).

See threads 6754, 7854 and 45103 for more discussion and songs about Judas.

Incidentally, an interesting comparison to the song, "Stand Up For Jesus" in thread 7854 is the poem on Judas, "A Roman Lawyer in Jerusalem. First century." William Wetmore Story, 1902 (Search Judas in American Memory for text).
"The case is of one Judas, Simon's son, Iscariot called - a Jew- and one of those who followed Christus...." (p. 7).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:19 PM

Thanks for your insight, Q. I would have linked this thread to the concurrent thread on Niles authenticity, but couldn't figure out how to make one. I just posted a few additional thoughts there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:40 PM

Thread 7854 (Stand Up For Judas): Judas
Thread 6754: Judas
Thread 45103 (Help, Judas): Judas
I suppose eventually these will be noted at the top of the thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:54 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Judas' (Child 23?) by John Jacob Niles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:32 AM

I'd missed this one-- thanks for the refresh.

~S~


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