BS: Victims of terrorism speak

Subject: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM

Victims urge international trials for terror suspects (Guardian)

Victims of terrorism in many parts of the world gathered in Madrid yesterday for a congress at which they demanded that suspects should be tried by international tribunals.

The 150 delegates from as far afield as Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Algeria, Colombia and Israel told of lost husbands, wives and children, and of living with the physical and psychological mutilation of the attacks...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:36 PM

Wolfgang: You will note that the United States does not join the other countries in this belief. The attacks on 9/11 took place on U. S. soil. I don't believe our country will ever allow a court based in any other country to decide the guilt or innocense of any terrorist who commits an act of terrorism on U. S. soil.

At least I devoutly hope not.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 05:25 PM

... because the US doesn't want to set a reciprocal precedent - with its documented history - of anyone in the International Community being in a position to try US citizens (- funny how Israel sems to hold a similar position)... ?

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:13 PM

This would presumably be the kind of thing that would worry Bush and Co: "Ghislaine Doucet, of the French group SOS-Attentats, which helps terrorist victims, said calls for vengeance should be avoided, but demanded that terrorism, including state terrorism, should be made an offence triable by international tribunals.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:18 PM

Wow...we're moving into some real gray territory there, aren't we boys and girls? I imagine there are thousands of Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, and Somalis non-combatants who have felt pretty terrorized by our Blackhawks roaring over their homes at all hours.

The other question is, what about situations where internal dissent is classified as "terrorism" by an oppressive government? Seems to me the US glorifies its role in such an uprising once upon a time.

Pretty gray territory.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

Whilst my sympathys were and still are with the NVLA, no doubt there are a number of Vietnam People, and Ammericans, who are still traumatised by what they suffered at the hands of "Charley".

BTW I see the French are making noises on this. An international trial - Yes why not? Do Algeria and "Rainbow Warrior" ring a bell ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:54 PM

Terrorism is about the techniques used, and the people targeted, not about which side the people carrying out the activities are fighting on. Guerrilla warfare is no more (and no less) liable to involve terrorism than regular warfare.

Terrorism is essentially killing or injuring civilians as a way of trying to achieve some political end.

Every armed organisation, or political organisation controlling an armed force, has a duty to search out and deal with anybody in their own organisation who takes part in, orders or colludes in terrorism. More especially when they are in senior positions, however senior. To fail to do attempt to do this is itself to collude in terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:41 PM

Czech newsclippings when the Russians fought in Afghanistan
in the early 80s - referred to anyone who fought the russians as terrorists. one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:41 PM

"Terrorism is essentially killing or injuring civilians as a way of trying to achieve some political end."

That'd be the London Blitz, the bombing of Dresden, the fire-bombing of Tokyo... My Lai.

And borderline cases, like destroying a building that a sniper may have fired from.

Or Waco.

No one has clean hands.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:07 PM

Not to mention the Lusslow massacre.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:38 PM

I agree with you McGrath - so why is Isreal's PM not up in an International Court for alleged war crimes commited whne he was a Military officer? .... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:34 PM

Terrorism is the practice of causing people to experience a sense of terror for the purpose of controling them. It doesn't matter who does it, or whether or not it's done by recognized governments or by guerrilla fighters. If someone causes people to experience a sense of terror in order to make them easier to control, or in order to make them behave in a certain way, they are terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:55 PM

I know a lot of domestic situations that qualify under that definition, Carol! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:18 AM

oops. **Ludlow ** Massacre. That was a peculiar typo.

I've been told that terrorism has only been successful when practiced by a governmentt against it's own people.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:47 AM

I guess so, Amos. I probably should have said when it is practiced against groups of people. When practiced against only one person, it's probably just abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:04 PM

You folks never met my mother !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: MAG
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:33 PM

A whole bunch of those video games classify freedom fighters as terrorists. I don't think Dubya can tell the difference either. It has been said above: who is doing the naming?

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:48 PM

Methinks you are right on... CarolC! It is very hard to draw a line between terrorism and abuse... the use of intimidation and bullying... to exact an unnatural response...

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:52 AM

Well, there are all kinds of terrorists. I've been told the most virulent are the Tamil Tigers. No one seems to be at that meeting to complain about them. And then, the largest group of terrorists that were being harbored by Sadaam were the Mojahadin Kalq (sp?). Since their target was Iran, our leaders seem still to be harboring them. How can that be? That's a war on terrorism?

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:49 AM

One persons terrorist is another persons hero but victims are always victims. Nieghbours become enemies and hate is prolonged and sews the seeds for more hate.

Here is a piece of prose I have in my collection by a person called Holger Teschke called 'The minutes of Hasiba' written in 1992. A victim.

I found it very disturbing and wish that the various goverments and secrect services would consider before they arm so called 'friendlies'

They came in the night with their flashlights
Through Partisan's Hall
They took me with them and we drove
To a bridge over the Drina
On the bridge stood
Ten older women Tied up
And fifteen soldiers They yelled
Here comes one of yours See how we love her
Then they did everything with me All fifteen of them
Afterwards they smoked and put out their cigarettes
In my hair Then one soldier took
His knife and slit a farmers throat
Not quite though So that his head stayed on his shoulders
It did not bother me anymore I had
Seen so much already I didn't care
The he tore his head off entirely and they played
Soccer with it and laughed and laughed
I knew the farmers They were
Neighbours colleagues relatives
Just a few weeks ago I knew most
Of the soldiers too They were
Neighbours colleagues relatives They were
Men just like you.

The odd phrasing is just how this peice of prose appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:14 PM

I posted that link for the victims of this type of terrorism tend to be forgotten.

The terrorist=freedom fighter picture misses one vital point. There are freedom fighters who try only to hit police or army of the ennemy and not civilians. They deserve much more respect in my eyes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 05:06 PM

I can't believe I'm agreeing with DougR. If the crime happened on Canadian soil I would want the person/s tried in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 05:19 PM

And I agree with you Brucie.

Amos: it may be a gray area to you, but it's a black and white one to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:26 PM

If you hit only the police or army, there are still victims-wives and families.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,mick
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:49 AM

Note that the speaker from Northern Ireland was none other than the Orangeman ,David Trimble .Trimble has never done anything as far as I am aware to stop loyalist paramilitary groups from terrorising the catholic community .
Note too that Trimble used the conference to berate human rights organizations calling them "a curse on the world" and "complicit in murder". Given his own equivocal record on loyalist terror groups one would have hoped that Dainty Davy would be a little more circumspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 09:31 AM

"terrorism" is defined differently. It's a buzz word used as
a political football. It is a word that gives certain countries
the right to act violently with impunity.

International courts would be more just than any individual
countries with political axes to grind.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Victims of terrorism speak
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:06 AM

DougR:

Pray share -- what definition do you use that so clarifies the question of terrorism as distinguished from freedom fighters?

A