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Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?

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DIRTY OLD TOWN


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GUEST,Len Wallace 04 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM
Mrs.Duck 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM
The Borchester Echo 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM
Brakn 04 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 04 Feb 04 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Len Wallace 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM
IanC 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM
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GUEST,Bill Kennedy 04 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM
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Subject: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM

Hey Mudcattanites,

Ewan MacColl's song, Dirty Olf town was written in 1956.

Does anyone know which town he was refering to 9if any)?

Thanks.

Len Wallace


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

Edinburgh, I remember?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

I expect Salford.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

Salford.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Brakn
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

Salford


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:32 PM

Salford.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

please forgive my ignorance. If it is Salford, where exactly is Salford (or a good approximiation)?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

near Manchester

:-)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM

near Manchester, Lancashire.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM

bad memory, not AUld Reekie;
I've seen Salford, but also some say Sheffield as the source;


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM

They would be wrong. MacColl was born James Miller in Salford, and grew up there. Do we really need to go over all this again?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:42 PM

no, needn't go over it again, but just because someone was born and lived somewhere doesn't mean he couldn't write a song about somewhere else, does it? just reporting what I've seen in print, and yes they could be wrong


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:44 PM

The third verse is often sung

Smelt the spring on the Salford wind.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:44 PM

Bill

If you read some of th information readily available on this site, you'll find out that MacColl wrote the song for a scene change in a play about Salford which he wrote. Since MacColl, elsewhere, said that the song was about Salford, do you need to keep arguing about it?

Wouldn't it be better to read the information that's available first?

;-)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM

Ewan MacColl was born and brought up in Salford, where his song is set.

Bill Kennedy: some say Sheffield as the source. Many people say it's about Dublin too, but that doesn't mean they're right!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:53 PM

I've read it, and never have seen a reference to McColl himself SAYING it was about Salford, though I know it was written about a play about a town like Salford. poets and writers often write things that are intentionally ambiguous, and based on thier experience, and he is successful in that the song fits the experience of many an industrial town. I'm not arguing about anything, just pointing out that a writer should not always be taken so literally. Just because he grew up in Salford doesn't mean he could have been writing about ANY industrial city.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM

Salford, I heard Dominick Behan singing this song on a Third Programme broadcast as long ago as 1957, and dear old sunny Salford was stated to be the town.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

Although Salford now forms part of Greater Manchester, the County Palatine of Lancashire still remains for some administrative purposes. Magistrates here are appointed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster rather than the Lord Chancellor. Salford can still consider itself Lancastrian, just like Ewan MacColl!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM

Well, Guest Bill Kennedy (?aka troll) you can argue, ponder, postulate and consider to your heart's content.... but the answer is still Salford!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Eugene Judge
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM

No doubt about it:

Written in 1946 for a Theatre workshop production, 'Landscape With Chimneys', a documentary play about Salford, Lancs.

I recall finishing off in our local session when a young man said.
"Your not packing up without playing my favourite Irish song are you?"
"What's that?"
"Dirty Old Town"

He looked a little suprised when I told him of its origins.

Eugene


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,anon outsider
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:21 PM

Right children stop squabbling! lets all agree that it's S A L F O R D !
Now then Dat was easy peasy wannit!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM

Cleveland !!!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: nutty
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:44 PM

DIRTY OLD TOWN (1949)

"This superb song was written to cover a scene change in a play which was set in Salford, Lancashire, the city which provided the philosopher Friedrich Engles with most of the information for his book The Condition of the Working Class in 1844. The gasworks croft was situated somewhere along that desert highway called Liverpool Street."

Quoted directly from The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:17 PM

Thanks for that, Nutty.

I'd doubt that Salford provided "most of the information" for Engels book, he looked at lot of places around (what is now) Greater Manchester. But those are questions for political historians or pedantic geographers.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:03 PM

Cleveland U.S?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

Salford


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:11 PM

Thanks, skarpi! *grin*


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:13 PM

Saw a train set the night on fire

One of the great descriptive lines!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: cobber
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

It's a bit late to get into this argument as it's been pretty well settled. We did a festival in 1979 with McColl and the song came up in conversation as our bass player was from Salford and he'd always said the song was from his town. (By the way these days it's just a suburb of Manchester the way the cities keep growing)McColl confirmed to us that he had written the song about Salford. Ah! Cry the doubters; but he coud have just been being nice to the bass player. Anyway, later that year we were in England and we went there to visit our bass player's relations etc and the one thing we noticed was the lack of racial tension. It was so bloody cold everyone was blue!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 07:36 AM

It can't be Cleveland UK as that is a region containing such towns as Stockton on Tees, Middlesborough, Esten and many others all subject of Garbut songs form time to time!

A


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

It's feckin SALFORD. End of discussion,
eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: moocowpoo
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 01:16 AM

it's about Canberra


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 03:28 AM

SALonika...not!
what chance of passing on the tradition, when some Doubting Thomases refuse to accept existing knowledge...


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM

Mornington Crescent!

That should finish it ;-)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: moocowpoo
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 12:26 PM

no it shouldn't, I've thought about it, it's really Wollongong


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:03 PM

In case anyone needs more evidentiary support:

I never was out of Salford Town, the place where I was born,
Except when I was in the ranks and wore a uniform.
But I'd sooner never travelled if the only way to see
The world was through the battlesights of a Mark IV 303.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:14 PM

Interesting that you should mention his military career, Curmudgeon. Does anyone know what he did during World War II? His autobiography appears to ignore that part of his life.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: jacqui c
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

OK - it's Salford, but in this part of the world we call it the Stevenage Song. If you've ever been to Stevenage......


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

... be sure to dream by the old canal


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:05 PM

Oh for f**k's sake...


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:26 PM

Wollongong is a dirty old town, come to think of it. Never been to Salford, so can't say. It definitely isn't Milton Keynes. It's a smokeless zone.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:13 PM

Rosebery (Tasmania). MacColl did a concert there, and they held a wedding reception in the other half of the 'phone booth.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 06:02 AM

Although Salford now forms part of Greater Manchester

On March 31 1974 I lived in Swinton and worked in Worsley, both in Lancashire. On April 1 I woke up in Salford, Greater Manchester and went to work in Salford, Greater Manchester. However...

Some time later (Can't remember the exact date I'm afraid) the conservative government under Margaret Thatcher, decided that the big local authorities like Greater London, Greater Manchester, Merseyside etc. were far too left wing and wielded too much power. So they were disolved.

So now, oddly enough, the new Salford metropolitan area (covering Salford, Swinton, Worsley, Eccles and Irlam) still exists but Greater Manchester doesn't. Leaving us almost exactly like the political layout in medieval times with a replica of the Hundred of Salford in the county of Lancashire!

I still live in Salford but now within the old city boundries and it is not doing too badly for itself. It is a little disconcerting that, as a city, we still have a university and a cathedral but no city centre:-( We do, of course, have Ben Kingsley, L S Lowry and, to bring the thread back on line, Ewan MacColl:-)

Oh, and yes, The dirty old town is Salford but barely recognisable as such now.

BTW I believe Mr Millers lack of record in WWII was due to his call up avoidance but I could be doing him a dis-service. I heard the name change was part of that issue but does anyone realy know?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 08:28 AM

Ewan did not avoid military service, If you can get to watch the BBC film by Tim May, ' The Ballad Of Ewan MacColl ' you will find out that at the outbreak of ww2 Ewan enlisted and Joan [ Littlewood ] went to work for the BBC.
eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM

Thanks Eric - I never did like that tale, paricularly about a Salford lad:-) but did not know how to refute the claim. I can now do so with impunity! Can you remember regiment or record? Or any idea where I could see the film?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:55 AM

I'll have to watch the video again Dave, then I'll get back to you.
eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:25 AM

Just to annoy some people it's Salford, Manchester north west England Great Britian(For English mudcatters).
Because some English people forget that they live in Britian and that the union jack is the British flag and also 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem.

Tom Frae Saltcoats Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:28 AM

PS and some people from the all over the world thinks that great Britain is England but it's not.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

I agree entirely, Tam. I am English. I live in England. I want nothing to do with the British that apparantly everyone from the rest of the world hate so much;-) I reckon it was the influence of other more violent races that caused so much hatred. Us English are a wonderful, peaceful race...

By the way 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem. How come it is OK for the Scots to have their own (Flower of Scotland)and the Welsh (Land of my Fathers) but not the English?

Oh, and finaly, what the f**k has all this got to do with Ewan MacColl or Salford?

Cheers

Dave the (Russian/Polish/English/Welsh) Gnome that loves anything Scottish!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:46 PM

We know MacColl went to Catterick at the start of WW2. There is no evidence that he stayed there. He was also supposedly "on the trot" - deserted.

What I find fascinating about MacColl at this time and I have yet to hear a definitive version - is that for this period he made no contact with anyone at all!!...........no-one I have ever heard of has ever come forward to say "I went to war with him" or "I sheltered him when he deserted"........and supposedly he "wrote a song a day" (Littlewood again).

However I have already been shouted by Dick Gaughan and others on another message board for daring to disucss this so that is the end of my contribution.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:55 PM

If he did nothing other than write a song a day during this period it would have been time well spent. It's otherwise uninteresting and irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:07 AM

It's interesting and relevant if only to find out where the songs are!
I happen to think what an important figure of the 20th century (to me) did for five years of his life at a particularly important time for politics when his life as Peggy described it on Desert Island discs was "driven" by politics.

I'd like to know why no-one seemed to know him at this time.

I'd like to know how he reconciled his communism with the first couple of years of the war.

I am not bothered about him being an avid TV watcher or knowing he had difficulty purchasing a bottle of milk.

I'd actually like to know why he didn't want to tell us!!

However as I said before that's it..........no more discussion from me on this thread about him and the war.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:53 AM

Going back to a very early postin' in this threaD - how the hell did Jimmy Miller become Ewan Maccoll. I ask this becos i've heard dribs and drabs over the years about MacColl re-inventing himself as a Scot and generally being a bit of a poser.

Nothing wrong with that, a course, he was in the theatre, and a major motive force therein so I read, and actors do like flexible identities and self-concepts. I'm just interested in WHY?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

I offer this for waht it is worth.

It is rumoured he deserted and changed his name.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:51 PM

Oh - don't tell us that Dave! Eric just restored my faith in this most famous Salford old lad and now I am not sure again:-(

Cheers

:D


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: nutty
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Forword to the song " Browned Off (1940-1945) " in The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook states .................

"When Ewan was in the army he wrote quite a lot of what were, at the time, incendiary pieces, Joan Littlewood writes...."the Medical Officer resented the entertainment, 'Write another song about me, Miller, and I'll give you an injection in a place you will never forget'" (Joan's Book,Joan Littlewood's Peculiar History as She Tells It, Methuen 1994)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM

I just felt like saying it, I know it's got nothing to do with Ewan McColl/ Dirty old town/Salford. I just do these things because that's the sort of person I am. I was going to say other things then I thought I better not.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:37 AM

Flower of Scotland is the unoffical national athem of Scotland, whereas God save the queen is still the offical national anthem of Scotland.
We are not allowed to have an offical national anthem because Westminster says so. (Scots). But that's got nothing to do with Ewan McColl, I just have these wee rants now again.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:46 AM

Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye would make a far better Scottish national anthem, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:03 AM

No Gods And Precious Few Heroes
(Brian McNeill)
Chorus:
'Cause there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal
And it's time now to sweep the future clear
Of the lies of a past that we know was never real

I was listening to the news the other day
I heard a fat politician who had the cheek to say
He was proud to be Scottish, by the way
With the glories of our past to remember
Here's tae us, wha's like us, listen to the cry
No surrender to the truth, and here's the reason why
The pride and the glory's just another bloody lie
They use to keep us all in line

So to hell with the heather and the glen
They cleared us off once, and they'll do it all again
'Cause they still prefer sheep to thinking men
Ah but men that think like sheep are even better
There's nothing much to choose between the old laird and the new
They still don't give a damn for the likes of me and you
Just mind you pay your rent to the factor when it's due
And mind your bloody manners when you pay

And tell me, will we never hear the end
Of poor bloody Charlie and Culloden yet again
Though he ran like a rabbit doon the glen
Leaving better folk than him to be butchered
Or are you sitting in your council house, thinking o' your clan
Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land
Try going doon the broo wi' a claymore in your hand
And count all the princes in the queue

So don't talk to me of Scotland the Brave
'Cause if we don't fight soon there'll be nothing left to save
Or would you rather stand and watch them dig your grave
While you wait for the Tartan Messiah
He'll lead us to the Promised Land wi' laughter in his eye
We'll all live off the oil and the whisky, by and by
Free heavy beer, pie suppers in the sky
Will we never hae the sense to learn

Final chorus:
Ah, there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal
And I'm damn sure that there's plenty live in fear
Of the day we stand together with our shoulders to the wheel

Ay, there's no gods!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,obione
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:14 AM

So, we finally get to the crux of the matter.This man changed his name because he was a deserter during World War Two. Is this true? If it is, would it not be better to quietly forget he ever existed?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:17 AM

Aye, that one too. It's actually co-wrtitten by Hamish Henderson and Brian McNeill.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:18 AM

I emphatically DID NOT say that was the reason. I offered it as a romour.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:38 AM

Freedom come all ye is an internationalist song, whereas flower of Scotland is a nationlist song. or we could have no gods


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM

Dirty Old Town doesn't rhyme. Quite clever really. I was on a website last year which postulated that he deserted from national service. This may have been his decision that he could not support war in any of it's forms. It may be more sinister.

He wrote some good stuff but I didn't like him on the rare occasions I saw him perform. There is a MacColl society in Salford which venerates him (and gets a large grant , I believe) , to do so every year.

Kirsty MacColl was a superb talent and a dreadful tragedy and loss to music in general.

Spot the Dog


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:57 PM

The "Rumour" of MacColl's desertion was prevalent in the '60's in Folk Clubs in NE England.

Somebody out there knows the truth - can they put us out of our misery :0)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:08 PM

Let he without sin cast the first stone

If Ewan did go AWOL cos he didn't agree with war .... fair enough

If Ewan went AWOL cos he was scared shitless ...... fair enough ....most of us would be a step or two behind him, many who didn't go AWOL only stayed cos they were more scared of the Army authorites

I don't even know why I'm putting this on, at the end of the day it's got F*** all to do with any of us

I think I'll go and buy a copy of the Sun to get some unbiased balanced reading


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,obione
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:02 AM

It's a good job the rest of that generation were not treacherous deserters otherwise the rest of us would be speaking German now.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM

Was fur Quatsch ist dass?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Why are deserters treacherous, these people woke up and said sod this for a game of soldiers, why should I be fighting in a war that I didn't start I'm off. Was ist das.

Ja
I could be considered as a coward because I don't beleive in fighting, just like Ewan, he and other deserters are my heroes because the told the rest to fuck off, at lest he was after the war alive.
Why should he fight in a war that he didn't start, let those with the most to lose ie politicions let them fight each other becasue they like it.
And leave the rest of us alone.
And Salford is still Ewan McColl's dirty old town
Guten Tag


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:18 PM

Auschwitz. Dachau. Belsen.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Juan Kerr
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

Guernica.Stalingrad.Riga.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:32 AM

Sowerby Bridge.
eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Son of WW2 parents
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM

Tam the incoherent nutter, how would you have us respond to Natzism, extermination camps, world domination megalomania, Gestapo jack boots stamping around Saltcotes....


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Guest: alan
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:10 AM

Didn't want to fight in a war he didn't agree with? Maybe we should make him president of the US (allegedly)!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

I was in Salford - Regent Road - the other day buying a guitar, and it struck me just how much of "the old" Salford must have been knocked down to make way for the new retail shopping area.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Compton
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM

I was just going to say that!! I finally got to visit Salford last year, and Revolving McColl would not have been able to write Dirty Old Town now as you could almost eat your dinner off the pavements now...Posh Old Town really!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:02 AM

Off topic alert!

Flower of Scotland is the unoffical national athem of Scotland, whereas God save the queen is still the offical national anthem of Scotland

Did I dream it or did England have GSTQ sung while Scotland had FOS performed at the Rugby match on Saturday..?

Anyhow - nearly back on track. Indeed, Tunesmith and Compton. Salford had it's 'heart' ripped out in the 60's. I guess you were at Sound Control, Tunesmith? Did you ever visit Salford when that very area was the Shopping Centre? All along Regent Road there were shops, even 2 deparment stores! I remember being amazed at the overhead wires where clerks sent bills and invoices whizzing across customers heads in one of them. Can't remember what it was called though. The shops then went all up Cross Lane, past the old cattle market and on along Broad Street between Pendleton Church and Manchester. All gone to progress alas! We now have a faster road into Manchester, a very nice retail park, some pretty quaysides and, as I said earlier, no City Centre:-(

The housing in the same area was realy awful and did need something doing about it. But why destroy the community because it needed updating? Beyond me I'm afraid. Anyhow, finaly back on the proper track!

Next time anyone is at Sound Control, if they do not already know follow these directions to see what remains. Out of the car park back onto Regent Road - you have to turn left. Next lights (Oldfield road) turm left again. Next lights (Liverpool Street) turn left again. You are now running parralel to Regent Road. Before the traffic lights at the end you will see, on your left, the remaining Gasometers from the famed gasworks! On the right you will see a car 'megastore' sort of thing (Carland or some such). The street at the side of it (Brunel Avenue) leads to the remains of the Old Canal (The M,B&B) and in the same area were Windsor Bridge sidings where you were most likely to see a train set the night on fire:-) You will be lucky to find any of the canal although some bits do remain in the area. The train lines still go through there though.

So ends the historical geography lesson! Next lights turning left again will bring you to the roundabout at the end of the M602, enabling you to continue your journey home no matter what direction you came from.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 10:02 AM

This from Peggy Seeger's website implies he served:
...Last Edition (written by MacColl). This highly successful play dealt with the political events leading up to the Munich pact and used the episodic form which MacColl was later to extend in his experimental post-war play, Uranium 235. In 1939, Last Edition was stopped by the police and MacColl and Littlewood were arrested and charged with disturbing the 'peace'. They were both heavily fined and bound over - that is, barred from taking part in any kind of theatrical activity for the next two years.

The small group of dedicated and talented members of Theatre Union formulated plans for a future theatre and embarked upon on intensive studies of theatre art and techniques. World War II began and within a few weeks the group had been scattered to the four corners of the earth and were serving with various military forces. Consequently, most of the training had to be done by correspondence. Nevertheless, study courses, reading lists, books, etc., were circulated consistently throughout the whole period of the war, and there soon existed a small body of farflung students who between them possessed a considerable corpus of knowledge on matters relating to specialised theatre studies. For example, one member made a study of the Attic theatre, and even went to the extent of learning to read Aeschuylus and Socrates in the original Greek; another specialised in studying the Commedia del Arte and still another concentrated on the Chinese theatre.

By August 1945, a sufficient number of them had returned home and, by pooling their Army gratuities, it became possible to launch the group now known as Theatre Workshop. The ideas which formed this group were the result of the ten years which MacColl and Littlewood had devoted to various theatrical experiments. Up till this period they had directed the plays jointly, but now the functions were divided: Littlewood was to direct the rehearsals and produce the plays while MacColl was to write plays suitable for the group, train the actors and, to a large extent, formulate new training techniques. During this period, he wrote eleven plays. Theatre Workshop travelled from 1945-1952 and a number of MacColl's plays were performed abroad and translated into German, French, Polish and Russian. By this time, enamoured with the Lallans movement in Scotland, he (like many other Scots-born writers) had changed his name from Jimmie Miller to Ewan MacColl, a name by which he was known for the rest of his life.


RtS


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM

Return to Topic. (well at least a bit)
Salford. My wife always tells everyone the right answer, cos that's where she is from. The Essential MacColl Song Book, quoted a couple of times earlier in the thread does not say that though. Don't have it myself so I can't actually confirm what it says. It was written posthumously though. Again from memory.
My wife used to take me shopping at the OLD Salford Market, before they knocked it all down, along with a hell of a lot more around that area. I guess I will get to see what it now looks like, as we will be over in April/May.
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:54 PM

Give me a call for a guided tour if you like JohnB! Get in touch via the Swinton Folk Club web page Here. Mine is the last contact number. we are, incidentaly, the only folk club left in the Salford area.

Cheers

Dave (Polshaw) the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: matai
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

So musicians, like poets lie and every town they perform in is their home town and Salford is every town, like Barb'ry (hope you dont mind me using your name this way) becomes Barbara in another time, another place but is still the same name, the same song.

affectionately,

Matai (from down-under)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:34 PM

This thread seems to have moved away from the origin of Dirty Old Town, but for the record if you read the correct lyrics (ie. not the ones the Pogues sing) then it says "Smelt the spring on the SALFORD wind". Not debate there!

Greater Manchester still exists and Salford is one of its 10 metropolitan boroughs. It's just the Greater Manchester Council that was abolished.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: nutty
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM

Must disagree with Guest

According to "The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook" that line should be
..
"Smelled the spring on the smoky wind"


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

Ewan MacColl sang more songs I like than any other singer. I am more interested in the people in those songs than in him, and I would be inclined to let him rest in peace. However, when someone writes an autobiography (_Journeyman_) in which the entirety of W.W. II has slipped thru the crack between consecutive chapters, (1) he is IMO as much as inviting people to come up with scurrilous rumors, and (2) one's interest is piqued. We are talking about an era that is now slipping from living memory, and during which large numbers of admirable people, left & right, are known to have behaved shamefully. What could possibly need to be concealed after sixty years?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: LindsayInWales
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:26 PM

just to add my sixpenn'orth, "Dirty Old Town" was the very first song I ever sung in public, with a borrowed 12-string guitar, during a school concert. My guitar was referred to by my school headmistress as "That Instrument" - and was frowned upon if ever I took it to school (1964-67) In 1968 "Jackie and Bridie" sang at the Pioneer Youth Club in St. Albans, and I was lucky enough to perform with them. It put me on the road to a lifetime love of real people and real music.....


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Keith Williams
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:33 AM

Yes, Dirty Old Town is about Salford.It is now sung at Old Trafford before Man United take to the pitch. To who ever was wittering on about Salford being a suburb of Manchester, it most definately is NOT! It is a City in its own right and historically is older than Manchester.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM

It's still only a small part of Greater Manchester - as the City of London is of Greater London.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:52 AM

I can actually claim to have met Ewan. Who always said it was about Salford which he refered to as "That Athens of the North". He wrote while working as a Jounalist in Manchester.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,John Green
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:10 AM

Just after the war I shared a room with Ewan.
I wrote a little song called "Filthy old slum" I left it there in that room, written on the back of a Woodbine packet. Years later to my surprise I heard what seemed to me the same song with the words slightly altered on the radio. I wrote to Ewan and demanded a share in the profits "kiss my ass!" said he.

Just goes to show, who cares what it's about as long as it makes loads of cash.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:20 AM

Not only green by name eh! neither are we.

eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:44 PM

The clincher to me is the use of the word 'croft'. A Salford (and Eccles) name for a patch of waste ground.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 02:54 AM

If you can find it there is an excellent video called ' The Ballad of Ewan MacColl ' much of it filmed in Salford where Ewan points out the ' cinder croft ' in ' Dirty Old Town '

End of discussion.

eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Trish
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 11:33 PM

I think it was Solfard


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:55 AM

Interesting to see this crop up again when I just discovered that the old folkie himself, Rod Stewart, had a hand in the lyrics! I never knew that. Mind you, I didn't know he wrote the Wild Mountain Thyme (known to Mr S fans as 'Purple heather' ) either;-)

Don't believe me? Check it out here

Incidentaly, according to Rod the man, the phrase is 'smelt the sping on the sulphured wind. So now we know. It is about Sulphered.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:07 AM

This invites the question "what the hell were you doing on a Rod Stewart web site" ;-)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM

Looking for the lyrics for Dirty Old Town of course...:-)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM

As the romans would say "taurus excretum"


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:13 AM

But EVERYBODY knows dirty Old Town is an IRISH song , dont they ??


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:14 AM

And at least Rod does credit ewan !! -Oh , by the way , 1oo !!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:21 AM

Salford, Salford, Salford, Salford SALFORD.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:24 AM

and the Sydney version.. (I live just down the road from Newtwon)


I scored my drugs - at the Bank Hotel
Saw a band at the Sandringham,
I snorted speed off a toilet seat
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Dogs are crapping on the street
Queens are prowling on their beat,
Springs a dyke, on a motor bike
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

I had a wank, down at the Hub
Had a lash, at the Hellfire Club,
I played some tunes, at the Carlisle Pub
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Gonna shave my head, gonna pierce my tongue,
Get a celtic cross - tatooed on my bum
Gonna shoot some smack, gonna dress in black,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM

It was about Swinton near manchester but it didn't rhyme so he used Salford instead ;-)

Anyone mentioned that nothing else in the song rhymes either!!

Spot (from Swinton)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,rogthedodge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

As above Salford! and it's not a suburb it's the RC half of Manchester - it has it's own council, cathedral and an RC Arch Bishop (Manchester having a proddy one)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Nickthejack
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

The Song 'Dirty Old Town' was witten by Ewan MacColl and first performed by him so the Pogues version is just a 'cover'. It is of course about Salford, his birthplace - and mine.
Salford is a city in Greater Manchester but was formerly in the county of Lancashire. It is mainly separated from Manchester by the notorious river Irwell and is a city in its own right with its own council although it now shares some of Manchester's resources such as police and transport. Salford has a fine univerity, hospitals and lots of municipal parkland. The famous development of Salford Keys is situated in the city on the site of the Old Salford Docks, as is Old Trafford, the home of the great Manchester United soccer club.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

I was at Salford University in the mid 60's. In fact it became a University while I was there.

The third verse was sometimes sung locally as

Heard a siren from the docks
Saw a train set the night on fire
Smelt the smoke on the Salford wind
Dirty Old Town.

The song for me still conjures up images of Salford as it was at that time when there was still a lot of terraced housing about. Much of it seems to have gone now.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

I'm sure it's about Saint John, New Brunswick (Canada).

biLL :)


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Betsy
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:36 PM

If you can't find the answer in the 100-odd previous postings - I just don't know - I feel sure it was a shit hole near Manchester where I lost my driving licence - Salford - but One percent of me ( although he was singing about Salford) believes the poetical says sulphured wind .


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Brakn
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

I was told it was about Broadheath, Altrincham (they say, the first industrial estate) but I knew it was really about Salford. It is Salford!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:21 AM

Peggy give 'smokey wind' in the Ewan MacColl songbook, but there was never any doubt that he wrote it about Salford (The Venice of the North), he said so himself often enough.
He was quite proud that so many people from different areas of the globe identified with it enough to claim it as their own.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

If you really want to you can drive down the M602 and at the end you can find the "Gas Works Croft" - a bit of waste land by the gas works. The last time I was there it was a derelict used car lot. Nearby is also the Manchester Ship Canal and the disused Manchester Bolton and Bury Canal (closed just prior to WW2). There are also plenty of railway lines where the glare from an open firebox door of a steam loco would certainly set the night on fire. I'm quite happy with Salford being the inspiration but you can apply the spirit of the song to many old industrial towns. Just as long as you don't present it as an Irish song by the Pogues which is what most pub bands seem to do. I've actually heard it sung in a Salford pub by a local guy in a cod-Irish accent.............


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:01 AM

such an iconic song has through time and oral transmission
far trancended its specific intended localized origins..

wha hey.. F@ck me.. did i write that !!????


i reckons it was writed down on paper about Bridgwater in somerset..




or if you want to get really dirty..



Highbridge..



basically its a song for any old school working class grammer school boy/girl

any where in the UK who was born back in the days before colour televisions and fitted catpets..


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,planktwatrockery
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:09 AM

"carpets"


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

and 'Grammar'


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:12 PM

Salonika.

Oh, no, that was that other song...


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,GUEST, Johann Von Schmutzig
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Much more about the political twists of this fascinating life may be found in a new book by
Ben Harker: Class Act: The Cultural and Political Life of Ewan MacColl (London and Ann Arbor: Pluto, 2007).
excerpts here, including bits from James Henry Miller's military file:
http://www.balladofaccounting.com/ewanmac.php
Enjoy,
Johann


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor Mckwar
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:50 PM

OK. I've just come across this by accident as I was reading up on the old man(Ewan) as I come from Salford(I actually was born in Leith, Edinburgh, but moved here aged 3). The interesting thing about all this is just how much shite a lot of people here have written about this subject. Firstly, the song is written about Salford! Secondly, Salford IS NOT a borough of Manchester, we are a city in our own right!! It is true that geographically we are as siamese twins and due to the proximity we share a great deal socially and culturally, for example, Manchester United has always been considered to be a Salford mans football team, but we are still two separate cities with separate Councils and Courts. Furthermore, Greater Manchester DOES STILL EXIST and it covers a vast area which includes Salford, Manchester, Oldham, Bolton, Bury, Haywood and the list goes on and on. We all used to be Lancashire but they came up with the idea of Greater Manchester in the 70's and old Lancashire(which was vast and covered places from Liverpool to Blackburn) was simply split up in bits.

I know this was a bit of a rant but I'm tired and needed to put a few things straight as I appear to be the only person on here from Salford.

One last thing, in terms of people thinking there is a Celtic link to the song, that is understandable as MacColl was a Celt and a vast amount of people in these old North West Of England Industrial Cities have Celtic roots as vast amounts of people from Scotland and Ireland flooded here during the industrial Revolution. After all, as the crow flies we can only be about 200/250 miles away from Scotland and probably only 100/150 miles away from Ireland(that is a tired man's guess but it can't be far wrong) You only need to see the amount of Scots and Irish that turn up at Old Trafford on a weekend to get the idea!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:22 AM

There's quite a few of us from Salford here Gregor. It's such a good place top come from. It's about 120 miles to Scotland, 150 miles to Ireland (or 25 if Ireland begins at Knotty Ash), and 25000 miles to Yorkshire (the sensible way).

Glasgow, Glasgow, where are you?
180 from Salford.

Apologies to Ivor Cutler.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:42 AM

All along Regent Road there were shops, even 2 deparment stores! I remember being amazed at the overhead wires where clerks sent bills and invoices whizzing across customers heads in one of them. Can't remember what it was called though. wrote Dave Polshaw in 2004.

They had that sort of rig in Master's which was however on Broad Street. We used to get school uniforms from there- they had the monopoly, and were far too expensive for anything else. Most other stuff came from BHS on Regent Road. Don't forget that the shops ran right from the Woolpack at Pendleton Church though to Regent Road baths and beyond.

There was a railway from Windsor Bridge to the docks that ran through a tunnel right underneath St. Joseph's school playground- my dad taught there for some years. It was known as the Funda- because of the noise when a train went through it.

If anyone from that small part of the world which is not Salford would like to understand a little more of the environment McColl sang about, you could do a lot worse than get hold of Robert Roberts' books "The Classic Slum" and "A Ragged Schooling", both of which my father, from Salford though not Hanky Park, recognised as close to his own experience.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:01 AM

he (like many other Scots-born writers) had changed his name from Jimmie Miller to Ewan MacColl

I suppose that would explain how 'he' got so much work done...


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:30 AM

Oops - that last anonyGuest was me.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:24 PM

He might have written about Salford but I think he was heavily influenced by the time he spent in Cleveland barracks!!!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:01 PM

Just reading the sleeve notes on a recent compilation I have with Mr Mc himself singing 'Smelt the spring on the smokey wind'. Doesn't tell me when he sang it but one bit of alarming information did come to mind - Even Rod Stewart has recorded it! I always thought he was a closet folkie. The leopardskin tights were just to put us off the scent:-) And, yes, I do know Rod the Mod has also recorded other folk songs - even trying to claim Wild Mountain Thyme as his own!

Dunno if anyone is interested but I was quite proud of my little self recently when I re-wrote it here to reflect Salford as is. Full story behind it by following various links.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor Mckwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:42 PM

As I previously said, I was guessing about the distance to Scotland and Ireland. It was very late and I grabbed some very rough figures from my tired mind but surely you get the point I was making? Furthermore, I was sort of right on the Ireland guess, It's just that I was way off on the Scotland guess, which I should have really got as I was born there.

I'd just like to point out to some people, that unlike myself, Mr MacColl was born in Salford, not Scotland. Although he was a Celt, being from Scottish stock. Also, did he write 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' of Roberta Flack fame?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:09 PM

Yes, he did. Your question suggests that you're new to all this, so it might be helpful to establish what you mean by 'Celt'; the term is much misused and misunderstood. Are all people born in Scotland, or descended from people who were born in Scotland, 'Celts', in your opinion? Are people born a few yards across the border 'Celts' too, or are they something else? The term is meaningless except linguistically and archaeologically, so it really is best not to use it except in those contexts. It only leads to arguments.

MacColl, né Miller, came from a Scottish background, but there's nothing particularly Scottish about the style he used for this song, or for many of his others. The Scottish side of his heritage is something that he didn't really begin to exploit until later in life.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor McKwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:33 PM

One last point I'd like to make in terms of MacColl and his music, into which I believe I may have a small amount of insight.

Like myself, he was a Scot(a celt) brought up in Salford and like myself from the beginning his home life will have been full of the life of Scotland. From the language used, the music listened to, the cultural references, the stories told and re-told, The Scottish Celtic upbringing is vastly different to the Anglo-Saxon upbringing of most of my friends(weather they be Of A/S stock or 2nd/3rd generation Irish or Scots or Caribbean). I'm sure this stuck with MacColl for the rest of his life, as it has with me.

This can be seen in the structure of some of his songs ' The Manchester Rambler ' for example, sounds indicative of Lancastrian folk music, Five Penny Piece could and I'm sure have sung this. Nevertheless, ' Dirty Old Town ' In it's structure and melody is a Celtic folk song. I was brought up with a hundred songs that have the same feel to them as this and I'm sure he must have been. Therefore, Although the song is about Salford, It is a Celtic folk song, written by a Celt. I Thank You.

It's late again and I'm rambling, but you get the idea!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor McKwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:38 PM

Only a Anglo Or a Bloody Anglo-Jock could have made that statement about the use of the word ' Celtic '
You do know that we all hate your kind and we are getting Independence no matter what you say. I won't waste my time with this subject anymore.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:59 PM

I'm takin' a wild guess here...

Blind River.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:05 AM

That's dreadfully aggressively put, Gregor. the point Malcolm made was a genuine historical and ethnographic one- Scotland is a land of mixed origins, and not purely 'Celtic'. The Lothians were Anglo-Saxon overlying Brythonic, the southern lowlands of the West were the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which crossed what is now the border to include what is now Cumbria. The Western Isles and Galloway were colonised by immigrants from Ireland in the Dark Ages. There was a large injection of Norse all around the coasts. And that's putting it simply.

Independence won't change any of that. And neither will "racially" abusing opponents as "Anglo-Jock". Or are you going to ethnically cleanse unacceptable elements after independence?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:31 AM

and to further complicate issues the Celts were invaders anyway, just as the Romans after them and the Saxons after them. As far as I am aware the earliest known settlements around all three current countries of this Isle were Pictish. Just as the Romans pushed the Celts to the outlying regions, the Celts did so with the Picts. I am not sure what the Irish were originaly but of one thing I am sure. As Ireland seems to be the furthest north west that the Celtic people went from their home in the south east, probably in Africa, Ireland would have been one of the last nations that the Celts colonised.

Yes, btw, Ewan did write 'the first time'.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:35 AM

Oi watch it Dave, the Picts are not mentioned by history until the 3rd century AD, and it's now thought they were a coalition of Brythonic tribes. It's also unclear whether "Celtic" means physical people, adoption of a fashion, or a combination of both. DNA is helping a bit, but only if assumptions are made about the genetic makeup before presumed migrations,particularly as regards the Y chromosome haplogroups. And Ireland may well have been infuenced more by seaborne contacts from the south- Celtiberia- than from mainland Britain.

As said, it needs simplifying if you aren't to write a book about it.

Of course, one widely adopted simplification, especially in Ireland, Scotland, Liverpool and the Salford of my youth was Catlick or Proddydog.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Well I never - You learn summat new everyday:-)

I was always told that the earliest settlement around these 'ere parts was in Eccles - And that was bronze age and Pictish! Just shows what bollocks these 'ere pseudo historians tell the gullible public!

Thanks for putting the record straight, Paul. What about the other thing re picts - The peak district was a corruption of the pict district. More spherical objects?

Anyroads - I can tell you something that is true that you may not know about pre-history. Bronze age huts all had a groove in the doorway. It was speculated on for years - was it architectural, religious, cultural, what? When the bronze age village was re-created for TV some years ago they found that the chickens used to gather in doorways and create grooves. Not sure if this was the only reason but it makes you think dunnit?

:D


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:22 PM

I'm astonished that there is still doubt that a) 'Dirty Old Town' is Salford or that b) there is still a question as to whether he deserted. The answer to both questions is YES!
A Socialist / Communist for all his life, a great singer and interpreter of the traditional songs, a great song writer but not neccessarily a person I would have wanted as a friend.
Read the authorised (by Peggy Seeger) biography written by Ben Harker and published by Pluto Press (see Johann Von Schmutzig post), which appears to be a 'warts and all' story of his life and it confirms both 'questions'.
He avoided call-up for as long as he could and then when 'caught' he was too 'soft' to stand all that every other male of his age in the country had to experience, deserted and was hidden away by Littlewood and his friends in the their Theatre movement for the entire war.. He was arrested after the war and for some reason (unfathomable to my mind) the authorities let him go without pressing charges.
I had always suspected the desertion to be case and was sorely disapointed in the man to find it was true...


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:50 AM

We all used to be Lancashire but they came up with the idea of Greater Manchester…….

Sale was in Cheshire, as was Stockport.

According to Wikipedia, the areas south of the Mersey and Thame were in Cheshire, the Saddleworth area in Yorkshire and parts of the south-east in Derbyshire. Back before the Romans, Wigan to Stretford was settled by the Celtic Brigantes tribe with the Cornovii south of the Mersey. You don't have to be from Scotland or Ireland to claim Celtic origins.

DC


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:00 AM

This thread should have ended 4 years ago with one word SALFORD. It's now a totally pointless discussion.

eric


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:02 AM

Peak ain't from Pict- it's from the Pecsaetna, the Anglo- Saxon tribe (mentioned in the Tribal Hidage I think) that inhabited (hid in?) the Peak District, and probably were Saxons mixed with Brigantes. The Dark Ages is a funny bit of history, but no one has recorded Picts that far south except on working holiday (see under Hadrian's Wall).

And yes Doug, prior to the Romans everyone was Celtic, and no one called themselves Celts.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Stu
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:39 AM

"Because some English people forget that they live in Britian and that the union jack is the British flag and also 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem."

Well, not me (or the English half of me). A thousand years under the Norman Yoke is enough without adding the artifice of the British Empire to the burden of the working men and women of this country. So she isn't my Queen and I don't owe my allegiance to the Crown, its government or its crappy flag and national anthem.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bousingo
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:53 PM

You're all a bunch of dinks. The song was written about La Puente, California. During the folk music revival in the early sixties MacColl had the displeasure to appear at a most disappointing venue: Johnnie's No Bone Restaurant. He was cheated out of his pay at the end of the night and the local police sent him on his way.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"This thread should have ended 4 years ago with one word SALFORD. It's now a totally pointless discussion."

Exactly!

Charlotte R


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ewans Da
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:40 PM

"One last thing, in terms of people thinking there is a Celtic link to the song, that is understandable as MacColl was a Celt and a vast amount of people in these old North West Of England Industrial Cities have Celtic roots as vast amounts of people from Scotland and Ireland flooded here during the industrial Revolution."

I see the Welsh get ignored ay? lol. I wouldn't use the term 'Celt' to describe the indigenous peoples of these Islands as they are not 'Celts' according to genetic research. It would seem they only adopted or incorporated 'Celtic' custom and culture.

I would agree that though 'Dirty Old Town' was written for Salford, it also describes many many places in the industrial North, or should I say the pre-Thatcher industrial North lol.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:10 PM

Who was 'ere before them cunning Celts then? I need to know these things!

And if this thread had ended 4 years ago, Charlotte, you would not have the opportunity to make a yet another smartarse comment.

Discussions are usualy interesting, often educational and very rarely pointless. Apart from to people who are not interested and would be better keeping away from them anyway?

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:50 PM

Pre-Celt not a lot was being written down, which makes it a bit hard to say. I think the Picts were pre-Celtic; what they spoke we don't know, but it may have been something like Basque.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:31 PM

My understanding is that the Northern Picts spoke a non-Indo-European language, and the southern Picts spoke a P-Celtic language closely related to Gallic. Anyway, I don't usually fill in the race bits of questionnaires as they don't have a box for Picto-Norse.

Did someone mention the Famous Eccles earlier? Wouldn't be out of place.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:20 AM

Aye - I mentioned Eccles. Famous for it's cakes, church and wakes. Also now part of Salford. Well, the town is, not the famous goon character...

:D


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:49 PM

They had that sort of rig in Master's which was however on Broad Street

Just found out, courtesy of Mum P, that the shop on Regent Road with the same 'rig' was Landes. So, Landes and BHS were the two stores I can remember. The Masters I remember was actualy off Oxford Road - Facing where the Ritz is in Manchester and under a railway arch. They had a pneumatic tube system for their 'cheques'. There could have been a Masters on Broad Street but we don't remember it. There was, however, a Manners on Chapel Street with overhead cables and all - Remembered by Step-dad Frank. We never got as far as Chapel Street because we always turned down Cross Lane before we got there!

Did you used to get the same 'clothing company cheques' as us Paul? Another one of the dirty old town losses I'm glad to say - The 'tick' man!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:10 AM

Could have been Manner's- it's a long time ago, but they definitely had a Broad Street branch. And we were far too Middle Class to use clothing czechs, which was why MY school uniform (middle of family) was always hanging in rags. Jimmy could have clinched it for the uninitiated by mentioning getting bridged on Trafford Road.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:25 AM

:D That De La Salle upbringing again, eh Paul? Joys of Middle class-dom. Still -must have done you good coz you know more about picts that me:-)

Aye - Being 'bridged indeed. Again, we didn't get down as far as Trafford bridge because we turned off Broad Street to go down Cross Lane and then off Cross Lane to do Regent Road. Funny thing is I am currently working a stones throw from Trafford Bridge! They have built another bridge at the side of it which I am sure is a fixed structure so I don't thing Trafford Bridge will ever turn again.

I don't remember this either but my friend Dave E. reckons his grandad used to make money putting ashes and cinders down on the frozen cobbles near the cattle market so the horses wouldn't slip.

And who'd think we'd all be here today drinking Chateau de Chatelet...

:D


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ewans Da
Date: 12 May 08 - 11:57 AM

There is genetic research which connects the 'Basques' and the indigenious Briton's/Welsh/Scots and Irish. But the connection is still being debated.

It would seem the debated connection has reached one conclusion. That conclusion is, the native Britons and the Basques are the original settlers or aboriginal inhabitants of Europe.

Britain and the Islands are not Celtic or Franco-Germanic (Anglo-Saxon), but Indigenous British/Scots/Welsh/Irish who adopted absorbed immigrant culture.

:0o


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:47 PM

Ooooh - Thanks Ewans Da. Funnily enough we were discussing the Basques at work today and someone else told me that they were not Celtic - Although they do apparantly have their own bagpipes. Something of an enigma apparantly. All I knew before was that you shouldn't put all your Basques in one exit...

I'll get my coat.

:D


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:56 PM

freedom come all ye is about the speech by Harold McMillan had made in Westminster after visting South Africa, and it is an answer to his winds of changes speech which has nothing to with Scotland except it's written in Scots.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Jypsy Rosy Lea
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 05:47 PM

"All I knew before was that you shouldn't put all your Basques in one exit."


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 06:39 PM

Not much mention of the Norman influence on Scotland yet. Practically all the nobles in Scotland were eventually of Norman stock and as the nobles had the main bonking rights I should think most of the lowland Scots are of Norman extraction!

I'll get me coat.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:36 AM

Salford


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:40 AM

I hadn't time to read every single entry in this (sorry) so apologies if this has been mentioned.

I am bemused to see so much debate, but most people have got it right, it is about Salford.

He wrote it for a theatre workshop musical in 1949, which was called "Landscape with Chimneys."    The original score for the musical was;

Smell the spring on the Salford wind

the original copyrighted score confirms this.

There are many threads in this forum about original words and songs adapting, and this song has been mentioned many times. By singing smoky rather than Salford, it gives the song wider appeal and perhaps that is a good thing.

However, Salford chaps. No buts, just Salford.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

If Ewan was a deserter, why was he never prosecuted?

The song was written in reference to Salford, then in Lancashire, now in Greater Manchester, England, and the place where Ewan MacColl was brought up. When he first wrote the song, the local council were unhappy at having Salford called a dirty old town and, after considerable criticism, the words of the song were changed from "smelled a Spring on the Salford wind" to "smelled a spring on the smoky wind"

BTW what canal do we think he is referring too, we have a choice of two, M/cr Ship or Bridgewater canal?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:42 AM

"If Ewan was a deserter, why was he never prosecuted?"

Well this may never have been discussed before, but either he was Undercover Agent, secretly moving behind enemy lines ( my fav.), or in the post war confusion they had better things to do, (unlikely).

Blue Plaque for somewhere in Urmston anybody?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Aeola
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM

What a fascinating thread!! James/Ewan!! would be enthralled.His ancestry was of course mainly eastern european, but, I don't think he was really bothered!!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:45 AM

"His ancestry was of course mainly eastern european"

Who's?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:30 AM

"His ancestry was of course mainly eastern european"

I don't come to this knowing anything about his ancestry other than his father was a Scot called Miller and his mother was a Scot called Hendry. neither of which sound eastern european - though admittedly people can change their names etc. What makes you come to the conclusion that his ancestry was 'mainly' eastern european?


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:21 AM

Aeola how do you know Ewans ancestry was Eastern European ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:38 AM

"he was Undercover Agent, secretly moving behind enemy lines"
Bollix
"His ancestry was of course mainly eastern european,"
Likewise
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:01 AM

Fairenoughski Jim but the current usage is b*ll*cks as far as my "Usage of the Queen's English" 2009, is concerned.

Best wishes
L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:36 AM

Come on Les - If MacColl was an establishment spy he must have been as inept as any dreamed up by the Boulting Brothers or the Carry On team. A spy who left the Communist Party when he could have been of most use to the establishment, an avid supporter of left trades unions who never associated with a leadership who had the utmost respect for him, - likewise CND, the Anti Aparthied movement, the miners, the Anti-Vienam war campaign, even the Co-op... and all the other causes he supported - a leap too far for the most hardened anti-MacCollite, surely?
Jim


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:54 AM

Sorry! Caught out Jim. Just a bit of harmless (?) trolling.

Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM

It is indeed Salford where he grew up, it's a district of Manchester in England. Though on my travels back to Eire, I'm always struck by how many people there believe it's an Irish song referring to Dublin or Belfast, and it's hugely popular there


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:53 AM

L in C# asked:- "Blue Plaque for somewhere in Urmston anybody?

Nice idea, Les, but where would you put it? Ewan MacColl/Jimmy Miller was born in rented rooms at 4 Andrew Street, Lower Broughton, but shortly after his birth the family moved a few streets away to a terraced house in Coburg Street*. Neither street exists nowadays although you can find them both, on either side of Lower Broughton Road by looking in Old Maps and entering "Lower Broughton" in the search box. Look at the Lancashire and Furness 1908 map at 1:2500 scale just north of where the River Irwell makes a large loop south.

MacColl was born nearly 96 years ago, on 25 January 1915. Anybody want to sing 'Happy Birthday' for him next Tuesday?

*Information from Ben Harker's biography of MacColl Class Act, and here is an interesting commentary on Culture in Salford written by Ben Harker.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 09:00 AM

Hi Matthew,

just a dig at his going missing in the war .    ............ Harker places him in Urmston

Les


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM

Doh!!! :-)

Sorry - missed the subtlety altogether there, Les!

Anyway, Manor Road, Urmston where MacColl spent the wartime years is still on the map. Not sure what kind of plaque it might attract, though!

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM

Tricky hey? Surely left him confused for life if not scarred?

Les


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM

I'm not sure - I've never seen it, but I believe there is a blue plaque on the house in Beckenham - Ewan's last home. The fact that when it became vacant the maisonette was rented out to four policemen would have amused him enormously.
"Harker places him in Urmston"
Harker couldn't find his own arse with both hands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 AM

"people there believe it's an Irish song referring to Dublin or Belfast"

I find that strange! There was no Town gas in N.Ireland when I lived there and I believe the same was true of Dublin so how can there have been a gasworks croft.

I do however understand how Salford wind can be misheard as "sulphered"


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:10 AM

Where, as a man who can find many things with both hands, do you place him Jim?

L still in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:18 AM

"Where, as a man who can find many things with both hands, do you place him Jim?"
As somebody prone to throwing the baby out with the bathwater - read his formulistic hatchet-job of collectors in 'Fakesong' - ill researched vindictiveness.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Mick Woods
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:23 AM

Most of the people that "assume" it refers to an Irish town heard it first sung by the Dubliners or The Pogues. As the song doesn't name the town, that's a reasonable mistake to make! Mind you if those two acts hadn't covered it, then it would probably have remained unknown outside of the small folk community in england.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:53 AM

Jim,
Are you sure that you are referring to the correct Harker?
Ben wrote "Class Act" while it was David responsible for "Fakesong".


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:27 AM

Mind you if those two acts hadn't covered it, then it would probably have remained unknown outside of the small folk community in england.

Not sure I agree with that...it was certainly in the songbook we used at school in music lessons. Can't remember the name of the book but it had a lot of British and American "standards" in it and was very widely used in schools at the time (late 1960s). Everyone who passed through my secondary school between 1965 and 1975 would have sung it!


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:44 AM

Well as I remember he told me it was Glasgow or Grimsby ..Summat wi a Grr in it anyway,
LOL


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: johnadams
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:46 AM

Dr Ben Harker with Emily Weygang is the February guest at the Ryburn 3 Step folk club.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:48 AM

on the subject of establishment spies, according to the 30 years ruleas reported in the guardian, both Joe Gormley and Ray Buckton reported back to MI5 ON Union meetings.
Ithink it highly unlikely that Ewan was a spy, I also think Kirstie MacColls death was highly suspicious.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

I feel I have to try and make this clear:

When I suggested he might be a spy it was for want of a better word a JOKE. Ok not so funny. Sorry, these things have a habit of getting out of control here-abouts

Cheers

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM

as a joke, it is quite funny certainly laughable.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:17 AM

It's the Joke Police. Their terrible round here.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:27 PM

That's very kind GSS. I started a thread some years ago concerning the bourgeois nature of a particularly fine pair of chord trousers that Ewan was wearing at a festival in Liverpool around 1970. It ran a bit and I smirked a bit also

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

In fact it was over 4 years ago:

Ewan's chords

I have to say I was, and remain, flattered by the quality of the reponses

Cheers
L in C#


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

"Are you sure that you are referring to the correct Harker?"
Whoops - a knee-jerk reaction on my part to an old béte noire.
Apologies to all, especially Ben Harker.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:55 AM

Jokes do tend to go straight over Jim's head.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Shouldn't you be looking for tall buildings to leap over Keith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:15 PM

Good one Jim.
Ho ho.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,hanky park girl.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:27 AM

SALFORD, of course. get down the new oxford on a sunday afternoon, hear it sung by true salfordian's. were a dying breed.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM

Hey - What's going on at the New Oxford, Hanky Park Girl? Last time I was in there. many years ago and if it is the same place I am thinking off, they had the old judges chair from Salford Magistrates court and used to charge people to sit in it - All for charity. Plus an excelent selection of board games behind the bar! I tend to go to the Crescent or Kings Arms nowadays but if there is a trick I am missing - Let us all know!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,hanky park girl
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:46 PM

the crescent used to be my local, good ale house, the oxford, well, good bar staff, our jean,the best, timmy and paulette, landlord and lady, tops. the maggies chair don't know, you would have to go in and find out , they love the history of the place. dirty old town, were're all there, go in on a good sunday afternoon and you will have a good afternoon. when i read back to 04 you sound like you know my lovely City of Salford, are you local. I was raised on Ellor Street, can't believe what Tesco have done to the old St,James site, let me know your view's. an old hanky parker.


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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Hanky Park Girl.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM

I wish Artist's when recording this wonderful song would get the lyric's right, smelled the Spring on the SALFORD wind. Thank you Mr Rodney Stewart, you never let us down.


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