Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?

Subject: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM

Hey Mudcattanites,

Ewan MacColl's song, Dirty Olf town was written in 1956.

Does anyone know which town he was refering to 9if any)?

Thanks.

Len Wallace

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

Edinburgh, I remember?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

I expect Salford.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:22 PM

Salford.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Brakn
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

Salford

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:32 PM

Salford.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

please forgive my ignorance. If it is Salford, where exactly is Salford (or a good approximiation)?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

near Manchester

:-)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM

near Manchester, Lancashire.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM

bad memory, not AUld Reekie;
I've seen Salford, but also some say Sheffield as the source;

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM

They would be wrong. MacColl was born James Miller in Salford, and grew up there. Do we really need to go over all this again?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:42 PM

no, needn't go over it again, but just because someone was born and lived somewhere doesn't mean he couldn't write a song about somewhere else, does it? just reporting what I've seen in print, and yes they could be wrong

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:44 PM

The third verse is often sung

Smelt the spring on the Salford wind.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:44 PM

Bill

If you read some of th information readily available on this site, you'll find out that MacColl wrote the song for a scene change in a play about Salford which he wrote. Since MacColl, elsewhere, said that the song was about Salford, do you need to keep arguing about it?

Wouldn't it be better to read the information that's available first?

;-)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM

Ewan MacColl was born and brought up in Salford, where his song is set.

Bill Kennedy: some say Sheffield as the source. Many people say it's about Dublin too, but that doesn't mean they're right!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:53 PM

I've read it, and never have seen a reference to McColl himself SAYING it was about Salford, though I know it was written about a play about a town like Salford. poets and writers often write things that are intentionally ambiguous, and based on thier experience, and he is successful in that the song fits the experience of many an industrial town. I'm not arguing about anything, just pointing out that a writer should not always be taken so literally. Just because he grew up in Salford doesn't mean he could have been writing about ANY industrial city.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM

Salford, I heard Dominick Behan singing this song on a Third Programme broadcast as long ago as 1957, and dear old sunny Salford was stated to be the town.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

Although Salford now forms part of Greater Manchester, the County Palatine of Lancashire still remains for some administrative purposes. Magistrates here are appointed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster rather than the Lord Chancellor. Salford can still consider itself Lancastrian, just like Ewan MacColl!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM

Well, Guest Bill Kennedy (?aka troll) you can argue, ponder, postulate and consider to your heart's content.... but the answer is still Salford!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Eugene Judge
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM

No doubt about it:

Written in 1946 for a Theatre workshop production, 'Landscape With Chimneys', a documentary play about Salford, Lancs.

I recall finishing off in our local session when a young man said.
"Your not packing up without playing my favourite Irish song are you?"
"What's that?"
"Dirty Old Town"

He looked a little suprised when I told him of its origins.

Eugene

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,anon outsider
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:21 PM

Right children stop squabbling! lets all agree that it's S A L F O R D !
Now then Dat was easy peasy wannit!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM

Cleveland !!!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: nutty
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:44 PM

DIRTY OLD TOWN (1949)

"This superb song was written to cover a scene change in a play which was set in Salford, Lancashire, the city which provided the philosopher Friedrich Engles with most of the information for his book The Condition of the Working Class in 1844. The gasworks croft was situated somewhere along that desert highway called Liverpool Street."

Quoted directly from The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:17 PM

Thanks for that, Nutty.

I'd doubt that Salford provided "most of the information" for Engels book, he looked at lot of places around (what is now) Greater Manchester. But those are questions for political historians or pedantic geographers.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:03 PM

Cleveland U.S?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

Salford

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:11 PM

Thanks, skarpi! *grin*

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:13 PM

Saw a train set the night on fire

One of the great descriptive lines!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: cobber
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

It's a bit late to get into this argument as it's been pretty well settled. We did a festival in 1979 with McColl and the song came up in conversation as our bass player was from Salford and he'd always said the song was from his town. (By the way these days it's just a suburb of Manchester the way the cities keep growing)McColl confirmed to us that he had written the song about Salford. Ah! Cry the doubters; but he coud have just been being nice to the bass player. Anyway, later that year we were in England and we went there to visit our bass player's relations etc and the one thing we noticed was the lack of racial tension. It was so bloody cold everyone was blue!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 07:36 AM

It can't be Cleveland UK as that is a region containing such towns as Stockton on Tees, Middlesborough, Esten and many others all subject of Garbut songs form time to time!

A

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

It's feckin SALFORD. End of discussion,
eric

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: moocowpoo
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 01:16 AM

it's about Canberra

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 03:28 AM

SALonika...not!
what chance of passing on the tradition, when some Doubting Thomases refuse to accept existing knowledge...

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM

Mornington Crescent!

That should finish it ;-)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: moocowpoo
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 12:26 PM

no it shouldn't, I've thought about it, it's really Wollongong

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:03 PM

In case anyone needs more evidentiary support:

I never was out of Salford Town, the place where I was born,
Except when I was in the ranks and wore a uniform.
But I'd sooner never travelled if the only way to see
The world was through the battlesights of a Mark IV 303.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:14 PM

Interesting that you should mention his military career, Curmudgeon. Does anyone know what he did during World War II? His autobiography appears to ignore that part of his life.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: jacqui c
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

OK - it's Salford, but in this part of the world we call it the Stevenage Song. If you've ever been to Stevenage......

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

... be sure to dream by the old canal

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:05 PM

Oh for f**k's sake...

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:26 PM

Wollongong is a dirty old town, come to think of it. Never been to Salford, so can't say. It definitely isn't Milton Keynes. It's a smokeless zone.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:13 PM

Rosebery (Tasmania). MacColl did a concert there, and they held a wedding reception in the other half of the 'phone booth.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 06:02 AM

Although Salford now forms part of Greater Manchester

On March 31 1974 I lived in Swinton and worked in Worsley, both in Lancashire. On April 1 I woke up in Salford, Greater Manchester and went to work in Salford, Greater Manchester. However...

Some time later (Can't remember the exact date I'm afraid) the conservative government under Margaret Thatcher, decided that the big local authorities like Greater London, Greater Manchester, Merseyside etc. were far too left wing and wielded too much power. So they were disolved.

So now, oddly enough, the new Salford metropolitan area (covering Salford, Swinton, Worsley, Eccles and Irlam) still exists but Greater Manchester doesn't. Leaving us almost exactly like the political layout in medieval times with a replica of the Hundred of Salford in the county of Lancashire!

I still live in Salford but now within the old city boundries and it is not doing too badly for itself. It is a little disconcerting that, as a city, we still have a university and a cathedral but no city centre:-( We do, of course, have Ben Kingsley, L S Lowry and, to bring the thread back on line, Ewan MacColl:-)

Oh, and yes, The dirty old town is Salford but barely recognisable as such now.

BTW I believe Mr Millers lack of record in WWII was due to his call up avoidance but I could be doing him a dis-service. I heard the name change was part of that issue but does anyone realy know?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 08:28 AM

Ewan did not avoid military service, If you can get to watch the BBC film by Tim May, ' The Ballad Of Ewan MacColl ' you will find out that at the outbreak of ww2 Ewan enlisted and Joan [ Littlewood ] went to work for the BBC.
eric

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM

Thanks Eric - I never did like that tale, paricularly about a Salford lad:-) but did not know how to refute the claim. I can now do so with impunity! Can you remember regiment or record? Or any idea where I could see the film?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:55 AM

I'll have to watch the video again Dave, then I'll get back to you.
eric

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:25 AM

Just to annoy some people it's Salford, Manchester north west England Great Britian(For English mudcatters).
Because some English people forget that they live in Britian and that the union jack is the British flag and also 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem.

Tom Frae Saltcoats Scotland.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:28 AM

PS and some people from the all over the world thinks that great Britain is England but it's not.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

I agree entirely, Tam. I am English. I live in England. I want nothing to do with the British that apparantly everyone from the rest of the world hate so much;-) I reckon it was the influence of other more violent races that caused so much hatred. Us English are a wonderful, peaceful race...

By the way 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem. How come it is OK for the Scots to have their own (Flower of Scotland)and the Welsh (Land of my Fathers) but not the English?

Oh, and finaly, what the f**k has all this got to do with Ewan MacColl or Salford?

Cheers

Dave the (Russian/Polish/English/Welsh) Gnome that loves anything Scottish!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:46 PM

We know MacColl went to Catterick at the start of WW2. There is no evidence that he stayed there. He was also supposedly "on the trot" - deserted.

What I find fascinating about MacColl at this time and I have yet to hear a definitive version - is that for this period he made no contact with anyone at all!!...........no-one I have ever heard of has ever come forward to say "I went to war with him" or "I sheltered him when he deserted"........and supposedly he "wrote a song a day" (Littlewood again).

However I have already been shouted by Dick Gaughan and others on another message board for daring to disucss this so that is the end of my contribution.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk