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Tech: website - how to make one
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Subject: Tech: website From: Red and White Rabbit Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:35 AM I have been asked to make a website for work - havent got a clue how or where to start - any tips? Thanks Sue |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Red and White Rabbit Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:36 AM By the way, I know this is unusual for me but I am being serious and not looking for comments about spiders or ducks feet though knowing me I should think that will be how the website will end up!! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:06 AM This all depends - if you have no clue as on where to start, and you want it to look professional, ask/pay someone who does know to do it for you. I'm not meaning to sound harsh, but if you're seeking something professional-looking, it's best to leave it to someone with experience *or* keep it really, really simple. If you don't mind learning from scratch, and don't mind what you end up with, then there are loads of HTML tutorials out there - a quick search on Google should give you loads of beginners' guides. It may seem daunting learning HTML, but it's worth it - you get more control than just using a web editing package. Best tips - simple as possible, lay it out as it would look on a single page, consistent colours and fonts, no clip art and no blinking/animated text or images! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Musicman Date: 11 Feb 04 - 08:20 AM if you're anygood with computer stuff... and wanna play.. get a copy of dreamweaver and start playing... its a good program.. very visual with lots of stuff you can do... get a book about dreamweaver and practice some of the stuff.. but start by keeping it simple.... i've done a bunch that way..... musicman... My band Website Shutterfly Website |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: treewind Date: 11 Feb 04 - 08:55 AM Or combine Fibula Mattock's two approaches - pay someone to show you how to get started. I've done this for a few people and it works - in one afternoon you get a simple page that you've created by yourself in hand coded HTML, and you know how to build it up and maintain it yourself forever afterwards. One client wasn't even sure if he had a text editor - it was the blind leading the blind as I tried to find a text editor and how to use Fetch on his Mac! We got there in the end though, and he's since filled his site with photos and MP3's of his band and moved the whole site to a different URL without any help from me! If you want a package to do it the "easy" way, Dreamweaver is OK. Don't use MS Word and its "save as HTML" feature, nor MS publisher. I've seen the result and it's nasty! Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: pavane Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:08 AM You also need to get at least an outline of what NOT to do. One example is DO NOT automatically play a sound file or tune on entry to the site. (Many people browse at work) Remember that lots of people (10%) are colourblind to some degree and may not see the colours you choose. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: fiddler Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:13 AM SAMS HTMl X in 24 hours - The folks I've sent to this volume all get as far a hour 5 (in 2.5 Hours) then use it as a great reference book! I get no 10% form SAMS for the abolute beginner it is really good. I would also say Do Not go down the dreamweaver or front page (the two front runners) until you know what HTML is all about then fine. don't forget when you get good there is ASP - Javascript and many other tools you can use. Whether you are UK or USA based now there are disabled access rights to consider too. If a disbaled person can show they needed (wanted) to access your site and could not it is technically an offence that you can be sued for (in some places). Have fun A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Bill D Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:22 AM all you need at this site ...choose among these, according to YOUR notion of what you are comfortable with. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM Start, as in all such things, by learning to walk. In general, don't use more than two fonts in any page, and don't go overboard with colours. Strongly coloured backgrounds can make text hard to read; there are plenty of sites out there where the text is actually invisible in some browsers. Never put up a page that has only been tested in IE, which tends to "gloss over" mistakes in coding that other browsers will interpret literally, and bear in mind that different browsers will display various things in slightly different ways. WYSIWYG website builders like Dreamweaver are useful, but can tempt the beginner into over-reaching themself; and will often insert URLs for images, for example, that point to a specific location on your hard drive rather than a relative link; this can result in a website full of empty boxes instead of pictures. The designer may remain blissfully unaware of this until told, because they can see all those pictures while nobody else can. Try to acquire at least a basic understanding of html so that you have some idea what you are doing. Dreamweaver will not make a person a designer any more than a ten-minute bodhran tutorial will make a musician. There are a great many websites out there which are the design equivalent, come to that. Simple is always better than garish and ghastly. Avoid javascript and all "effects" to begin with. Remember that the web is not DTP; you can never be sure that people will see your work exactly as you hoped, and that if you define specific fonts, many people may not have them installed and will see something else entirely. A good way of learning is to find a page that looks nice to you. Save it to your machine and look at the underlying code. Work out which bits do what. Pick up an html manual in a remainder bookshop so that you can look things up. Experiment with simple stuff first. Basically, the advice that one gives to a beginner in any skill. Learn by imitation and copying to start with. Avoid most WYSIWYG programs (especially anything made by Microsoft, which will insert crap and unnecessary code all over the place). Don't export as html from a word-processing or DTP program. Try a text editor which will highlight code in a different colour so that you can see more easily what you are doing. Arachnophilia is useful (and free), and the earlier version, which I think is still available, has an integral browser for quick checking. With due respect, the people you work for are rather ill-informed if they imagine that it is an unskilled job that anybody can do effectively without at least some understanding of what is involved. I daresay they would be quite shocked if they were replaced by the office cleaner on the grounds that "anybody can do that". |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:37 AM I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but remember, that which is achieved rapidly may not be satisying in the long run. Avoid WYSWYG packages like the plague! ESPECIALLY the 'easy' way of the "Word Generated Webpage"! Therein lies disaster and heartbreak! As a Piano Accordion Player, I get lots of criticism from Musos who have never played the instrument, and the harshest criticism from those who have played no instrument at all! I've been hacking by hand text layout languages since 1978 - and HTML is just like most of them. "Try a text editor which will highlight code in a different colour so that you can see more easily what you are doing." Try EditPlus - I found it so useful I registered it - and I'm a real cheapskate! It even highlights the correct closures of HTML objects - a real headache saver! I prefer Freeware! But.... Homepage If you want to get the latest information about EditPlus, please visit EditPlus Homepage on the web. You can also download latest version of EditPlus at the homepage. http://www.editplus.com EditPlus is an Internet-ready 32-bit Text editor, HTML editor and Programmer's editor for Windows. While it can serve as a good replacement for Notepad, it also offers many powerful features for Web page authors and programmers. Syntax highlighting for HTML, CSS, PHP, ASP, Perl, C/C++, Java, JavaScript and VBScript. Also, it can be extended for other programming languages based on custom syntax files. Seamless Web browser for previewing HTML pages, and FTP commands for uploading local files to FTP server. Other features include HTML toolbar, user tools, line number, ruler, URL highlighting, auto-completion, cliptext, column selection, powerful search and replace, multiple undo/redo, spell checker, customizable keyboard shortcuts, and more. See also: Syntax highlighting Internet features HTML Toolbar Document Selector User tools Auto-completion Cliptext window Document template Other features EditPlus is distributed as Shareware. You can freely download and try it for 30 days. If you find it useful and decide to keep it over 30-day evaluation period, you should pay the registration fee. See also License agreement. The registration of EditPlus Version 2 costs US$30 per user. How To Order Please visit our ordering web site: http://www.editplus.com/register.html For more information, please contact Registration Benefits Full license to use the software beyond the 30-day evaluation. Personal reg code to unlock your copy into the registered version. Free minor upgrades (e.g. 2.0 -> 2.1). Discount for major upgrades (e.g. 2.0 -> 3.0). Free technical support by e-mail. Not really advertising - I get nothing out of it - but I wouldn't use anything else to hack HTML - it will even help you fix "error code" generated by other methods - even that given by Mudcat! :-) Robin P.S. I.m not kidding - every page mudcat serves has an HTML error in it! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: treewind Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:49 AM Most web pages have HTML errors in them... Have you ever tried getting something past a proper W3C validator? It's a nightmare! I use vi for editing everything. It has syntax highlighting for just about everything I've ever tried it on, including HTML and ABC (how many can do ABC?) Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:51 AM "Most web pages have HTML errors in them..." ... but you shouldn't cross "FORM" and "TABLE" buckets... :-) Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: GUEST,Jeremiah McCaw Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:00 AM The site Bill D pointed to looks fascinating. I'll be doing lots of exploration in the immediate future. In the meantime, a functional website can be produced with Netscape's "Composer", without any particular knowledge of html. My own site's been done entirely this way (http://www.jeremiah.ca; critiques invited). |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: GUEST,Jon Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:20 AM What is your website for RWRabbit? In general, I would say the first principle for most sites is a good artistic eye - something I'm not blessed with. From then on, keep things as simple as possible. Don't make requirements that people need the latest IE or say javascript enabled but try to allow as many to see an attractive but simple site. Test whatever you do on a number of browsers too if possible and as Malcolm (I think) above said learn to code by hand. I'd not suggest you should not use a WYSIWYG tool but I would suggest if you know, you can cut out a lot of junk. The only other thing I can think of at the moment is the often ignored fact that content is more important than gimmicks. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Mark Clark Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:32 AM Lots of great advice here. Especially the advice about learning HTML and avoiding a WYSIWYG "builder" tool. As many here have implied, Web site construction is a skill all its own and very few people are really good at it. I've known otherwise brilliant, highly skilled software developers and engineers whose Web efforts were so bad as to be laughable. I've also known talented graphic desiners whose designs were very beautiful but didn't translate into a Web site that anyone would willingly visit. The vi editor is good, especially if you are conversent with regular expressions. If you are already an experienced software developer, you'll get more functionality from GNU Emacs. If regular expressions and programming are unfamiliar or confusing, try one the specialized editors like EditPlus mentioned by Robin (Foolestroupe) above or a good free one I like called Arachnophilia which has lots of specialized tools for Web development including an FTP client for moviing your files up to the Web server. Another very nice free editor and development environment is jEdit. You'll find links to a lot of good resources and tips at Webmonkey: The Web Developer's Resource and always remember “Friends don't let friends use frames.” - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Ferrara Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM I put up this website using MS-WORD. I knew it would probably have to be re-done but -- I could hardly ask Bill which HTML editors we have, could I, it would have definitely spoiled the surprise. Only about 2/3 of it will have to be redone Rabbit, I was helped by my (obsolete) copy of Web Pages for Dummies, and there's an HTML For Dummies book. The thing I've found is that on-line tutorials include all the facts but don't give you a picture of what to do with the facts. The Dummies books are good for getting that mental image of what can be done and how. They may be available at the library, or used book store, remainder store etc. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:00 PM Ferrara, looked at the code for the site - eeechhh! :-) at nearly 30Kb, I wouldn't be surprised if you could not whittle it down to even only a quarter of that size. I have given up hacking pages made in such ways, and just cut and paste any text, and reformat it myself now. Points about such type code 1) it CAN have errors in it... buggered if I can understand how, but then what would you expect from a company who used to boast that their programmers were free to paint the walls and windows of their office black, spread sand on the carpet and smash the lightbulbs... 2) Things like "Style" and CSS tricks are good for huge websites and commercial update of same, but are enormous overkill for small sites - they also make the pages download MUCH slower. Vanilla HTML is also easier for beginners to get the heck of, and if you leave off javascript twiddles, that also applies. All those style thingies tempt the naive to put a different font and color in for every one... aaggghhh! 3) Remember that originally HTML was just intended to format simple text, like research papers (no equations!) with linked pages, then pictures (and sound) seemed like a good idea. The the big companies like MS and Netscape came along with incompatible ideas to the existing standards, and each other (for marketing purposes!) - a few ideas have been kept, but the result is a mess, especially after well meaning idiots insisted on promoting the idea that HTML was a "Web publisher formatting system" instead of a "text display formatting system"! 4) Use the defaults! for fonts, sizes, colours of links etc - lots of users set their browser to override most of the fancy crap anyway! :-) 5) K.I.S.S. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Bev and Jerry Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:15 PM If you have the time, we reccommend getting a copy of "HTML for the World Wide Web by Elizabeth Castro". It's abvailable everywhere. This book allowed us to get our very first web page up using HTML and starting from no knowledge at all. Took about 7 or 8 days. See it here. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:31 PM Bev and Jerry just beat me to the exact advice I was going to give you. HTML for the World Wide Web is a great tutorial and reference. I've been building web pages for several years now and it is still my main tool. The other advice above that is particularly helpful--don't do it in Word. It sucks. Try to avoid FrontPage. I have had to use it for several years at work but am now switching to Dreamweaver and it is much much nicer! There is a learning curve, so it might not work for your first page. HOWEVER, Dreamweaver offers a 30-day free trial of the program, so you can download it and play around, build your page now, and think about buying the program later. Good luck! Don't let all of the advice here intimidate you. Let there be a little bit of magic as you learn--it can be a lot of fun. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM "Good luck! Don't let all of the advice here intimidate you. Let there be a little bit of magic as you learn--it can be a lot of fun. SRS " The best bit of advice so far - it's the journey not the destination that's important! Now where the hell am I? Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website From: open mike Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:07 PM you might want to enlist the aid of a high school or college student. they could gget class credit for using their computer whiz skills to set up your page and they might offer a fresh view point. (You would not want to let outsiders have access to any secret code type info) you might also get skate boarding icons for cursers and other surprises. I used a program called WSFTP for adding info to the web page i set up for my ex's book dealer catalog site...it is woefully out of date now, but still up there, and still getting hits, and still directing customers to him. www.quiknet.com/~piercebk i got the WS-FTP (file transfer protocol) program from tu-cows as share ware or free ware...this was a few years back....your ISP may have a template of sorts already made too. How much space is avaialbe for your site? there are guest books, counters, and other programs avaialable to add to your pages. good luck and send us a link when it is done--we will be sure to send critiques to you! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: Red and White Rabbit Date: 12 Feb 04 - 04:37 AM Thanks everyone, I have some computer knowledge ( used to teach it at Tech in fact) but never had to build a website or teach about HTML. The website is for the work I do on dyspraxia/ dyslexia - no my school hasnt any money to pay but I might manage to persuade them to let me go on a course! I know there are a lot of pitfalls with website design and the advice here has been great - dont want to have to re - do everything once its done thanks again Sue |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: treewind Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:50 AM (Foolestroupe:)Things like "Style" and CSS tricks are good for huge websites and commercial update of same, but are enormous overkill for small sites - they also make the pages download MUCH slower. Don't agree. Even quite a simple page can be much easier to maintain if you put a bit of CSS in. Also CSS does things that pure HTML markup can't do, and it does it in a way that's defined by an independent open standard, not proprietary extensions. As for speed: putting a <STYLE> section in the header or having a CSS file can make the file size smaller by avoiding repetition of inline HTML style markup, so it could make download time quicker rather than slower. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:35 AM Treewind but I don't use proprietary extensions - that was one of my points that I may not have made clear enough. Your other commet is valid too, but I don't have large chunks of that - as I said - I prefer to use the defaults. I haven't needed to code pages that don't work like that for years - I did have some pages with lots of things in them, but they were a pain and got simplified - and no one noticed the difference - and the size diminished. One of my bugbears: javascript code to save the web page! That was all the rage a while ago! What browser doesn't implement that as a standard button facility? Mouseover flashes, etc - eecchhh! Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: GUEST,noddy Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:29 PM contact johnpegase@blueyonder.co.uk he did one for me at very very reasonable rates. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: GUEST,noddy Date: 18 Feb 04 - 04:41 AM other sites he made ,just so you can the quality of his work are the trailerhaul.co.uk site and the lxavionics.co.uk site. As I say he is good and cheap. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Feb 04 - 05:57 AM If you want me to do one for you, you can look up my profile here. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: Red and White Rabbit Date: 18 Feb 04 - 06:30 AM thanks just in the process of applying for a new job so this is on the back burner for a moment but will get back to you SUe |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:03 AM Fiddler said, in part: Whether you are UK or USA based now there are disabled access rights to consider too. If a disbaled person can show they needed (wanted) to access your site and could not it is technically an offence that you can be sued for (in some places). What, now you need wheelchair ramps, wide doorways, or grab bars? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: Fibula Mattock Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:07 AM Pretty close: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 |
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Subject: RE: Tech: website - how to make one From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 18 Feb 04 - 05:10 PM Gone through most of the messages in answer to R&W Rabbit. However, my suggestion FIRST is to decide on WHAT you want the Web-site to say, and how you want to say it. I mean: What is the purpose of the web-site? Is it just a place-holder? Something to give your company a presence on the 'web? If so, it can be fairly easy to put something up with your company logo, with an e-mail link along with the address and phone number. If you want it to be used as a sales tool, that is a completely different purpose and a different design would be needed. Start there. I do recommend learning HTML, but you might not have the time to do it up right if it is to be extensive. Talk to the company first and decide what it is to be used for. It'll save a LOT of time and bad words later. Speaking from experience. |
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