BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker

Subject: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:48 PM

Saw this on a car the other day and found it available for free on the Friends Committee on National Legislation aka "Quakers." Quite an interesting site with many positive suggestions on how to help our poor ol' nation/world.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM

Good 'un, Kat....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 01:31 AM

If War is not the Answer, what is not the Question?

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

How many roads must a man walk down???

:D

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:57 AM

I believe the usual question is something along the lines of...

"What're YOU lookin' at?!"

or...

"You talkin' to ME?"

or...

"You want a piece of ME???"

Real mature stuff for big boys, war is.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: DougR
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

So what is the answer? Gonna talk 'em to death?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM

If we are going to talk them to death Doug, do you think that Bush is properly equiped to handle the job ?

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 02:39 PM

No, if you're a Quaker, you query them to death.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM

Sheesh... sorry I brought it up. I just thought it was a good way to say one doesn't agree with the shrub without getting in everyone's face. I guess some wouldn't agree with, who was it Einstein, who said you cannot simultaneously prepare for/expect peace while waging war, or words to that effect.

katdisgruntled, thought we already had enough debating threads about politics...I guess I was being naive or optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:00 PM

You're a hell of a deep thinker there, DougR, that's for sure. And a damn fine Socialist as well. Keep up the good work, Comrade R.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:03 PM

My cat used to get disgruntled she'd beat up on my couch! that seemed to appease her!

Would you like to beat up on my couch Kat it might help get you gruntled?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:08 PM

Sure, Raptor, thanks!! Can I use my *clause* on it? **bg**

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

A wonderful bumber sticker kat. If you want some other great stickers go to the "Landover Baptist Church" site and check out their store (the rest of the site is quite funny too). My current fav is "ENRON/Halliburton '04"

fun for all......Bob

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:05 PM

Problem-solving 101

1. Define the problem (this is often the most difficult part
2. Propose many possible solutions
3. For each possibility ask: a. Is it safe? b._ c._ etc.
4. Choose the best possibility
5. Try it
6. If it doesn't work, try another possibility

War does not work! Dialogue and compromise does. (at least until the next problem)

d

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 12:40 AM

Thanks! As a proud daughter of Pennsylvania, I know how much the Friends have done for the world. I'll get my bumper stickers soon.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 12:50 AM

Thanks, Bob, I'll take a look; I like the Enron/Halliburton, that would have been the Truthful once this last time!

Thanks, dianavan and Lady Jean. I found out just recently that some of my ancestors were Friends.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Frankham
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 08:22 AM

Hi Kat,

The American Friends Service Committee has a venerable history
in their contribution to America. They have been there not
just "talking" as some have suggested but by "doing". They have been there in floods, fires, disasters, shipping CARE packages, and
renouncing war whether Vietnam or Iraq. They have been at the forefront in improving race relations, encouraging tolerance by
understanding our diversity and bringing different cultures together.
They refuse to acknowledge "undue distinction between men" and women as well.

They are not lobbyists in the corporate world but their influence although not really known much about is considerable.
When they say "War Is Not The Answer" they have the history and wisdom by their actions to back that up.

Here's to the Quakes. Long may they prosper.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM

Yeah. Well, looking at the American Civil War, for example, I think the North and South would have been far better off talking each other to death for a couple more decades, Doug. Instead, they decided to fight, and you know the results...four years of incredible bloodshed, tragedy, and sacrifice, families broken, cities burned, Southern traditional society destroyed, bitterness that lasted for generations afterward. Yeah, it's better to talk than fight.

Once the fighting starts, though, one really doesn't have much choice about it. I think maybe that's what you had in mind? (World War II begin an example of such...)

This does not include "pre-emptive strikes" on people who have not yet attacked you, however. For advice on that you must consult people like Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Stalin, and George Bush.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM

Thanks, Frankham. I appreciate the info and support. You, too, LH.

I've read a bit of history of Quakers, and also noted on here, in some other thread a while back, that one of my Quaker ancestors went into the "wilderness" of what would become Indiana/Ohio, alone and very proudly with no weapons as he said his honest face would stand him in good stead with any Indians. He also made a joke that his horse cuddled up at night out of silly fear when he had no concern himself. And, of course, I've learned a lot from our own InOBU.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Ironmule
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 10:54 AM

Sadly, if you sit with a history book and a map, you'll find that nearly every border was drawn just after a war, and the winner got to draw the line. For the last several millenia, what we have written history of anyway, the winners thought that war does work.

As long as agressive psychotics can get control of armies, their neighbors will have to have armies too.

It is getting better, and several psychotics have been contained relatively bloodlessly in the last century, but the day when we can resolve every dispute peacefully in a world court is still in the distant future.

I think that continual pressure from a populace that doesn't want their kids dieing in overseas adventures, has had a lot to do with the advances. Preventing dictators from successfully lying with propaganda, keeps them from building the support they need to start a war.

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Cluin
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 11:41 AM

"So what is the answer? Gonna talk 'em to death?"

Does the answer have to involve death, Doug? How much blood will satisfy you?

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM

"Of course it was a just war! My son died in it."

Friedrich Nietzsche, "Thus Spake Zarasthrustra"

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 06:42 PM

Well kat, it couldn't have been Einstein you quote about preparing for war, he barely got out of Germany as a German Jew, then gave us the theory of the Atomic bomb. The only time I am aware that we averted a war by just talking was in Cambodia, as I remember someone calling the Killing Fields, the "Quaker Peace". Or was that Poland? Or Ruwanda? Damn, someone help me out here. Was there ever a time when talking alone just worked?

Or was talking softly and carrying a big stick? Damn, I didn't know TR was a Quaker...

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:31 PM

T R was not a Quaker but Richard Nixon was.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: MarkS
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM

Its really too bad the Poles didn't have that sentiment blown up to billboard size and placed on their western borders in 1939. If they had, perhaps all the unpleasantness in Europe between 1939 and 1945 could have been avoided.
Ah well, at least Nevell Chamberlain tried.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:05 PM

As a product of pacifist upbringing and Quaker schooling, I've had this discussion many times. People often point-out to me a specific moment in history and ask "what other than war would have worked here?"

Well it's all in how the question is framed. At that point, war may have been inevitable. BUT, what transpired that led to that point? Was there no moment when a different decision or action could have averted arrival at that inevitable moment of violence?

Of course there always is a prior defining moment. Thoughtful people averse to war could make every decision based on whether their current actions were more or less likely to cause eventual violence. Arrival at moments of inevitable violence can be avoided if we care to (yes, even in a world with occasional madmen/madwomen).

Yeah, yeah, yeah TIA is a looney dreamer. The real world doesn't work like that.

BS! I'm not trying to brag (there is a world full of people more virtuous than me, who have contributed more to the betterment of humankind), but the ONE thing I pride myself on is that I have made it nearly half a century without ever striking anyone, nor being struck. And, no, I don't live in a monastery. I live in the same world you do, and visit the same ugly places, but I have decided to die without having participated in violence.

If we arrive at a point of inevitable violence, it is because someone, somewhere, who could have prevented it, failed to.

Rant off.

(Sorry)

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 10:15 PM

Talking has averted numerous wars...but you don't hear much about that, because wars that don't happen are of very little interest to the news media!!! :-)

However, here's a fine example: Several major wars that might have been (including a nuclear one recently) have been averted between India and Pakistan...by talking...to each other and with the assistance and consultation of the world community.

But like I said, WHO remembers wars that didn't happen because people talked their way out of them?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:31 AM

War is a consequence, and sometimes the final option. Unless we forget it can also be the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:51 AM

Well, war is a very large fight...involving many individuals. So, what you are saying is that once one is in a fight, fighting well can be the only solution. True. Nevertheless, wise people avoid fights, generally speaking. The best course of all is to train rigorously so that one can fight well, if necessary, not instigate fights, and convince other people not to fight you through a combination of confidence and other strategems. If all that fails and they attack you anyway...or attack someone else in your presence that you feel obliged to protect...then you fight, because their is really no other choice. You don't fight against what you hate (unhealthy and ultimately destructive) but FOR what you love.

Simple.

I'm studying some martial arts stuff these days which would be quite helpful in this regard, but I am not out looking to fight with anyone. Mostly I'm just looking to strengthen and balance myself.

If I were running a country that was in risk of being attacked I would ensure that that country had a well-trained and well-equipped military force at all times...but did not go looking for trouble or raising unnecessary disputes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Raptor
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:58 AM

"I'm here for an argument!"
"No your not!"

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:03 PM

To Claymore: Einstein most certainly did say the "simultaneously prepare for and prevent war" quote. His theories that led to the creation of the atomic bomb are moot to his viewpoints on war.

Little Hawk: I suspect that the 4 million slaves felt a little differently about the solving problems through talking--Northern and Southern politicians had been talking for almost 50 years while slavery continued to grow throughout the nation--spurred on by Northern textile mills and Southern cotton.

The Quaker point of view relies on an optimistic view of human nature. I'm not so optimistic about the human race. Non-violence wasn't going to stop Hitler, and even if he was the end product of violence, by the time he was a threat to others, no amount of talking was going to change things. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 04:13 PM

Yes, Satchel, but...slavery was no longer growing in 1861. In fact it was beginning to become economically unsound, and would most likely have died a natural death within about 15-20 years, according to most historians. Is it better to kill half a million people and wreck an entire society or is it better to wait 15 or 20 years? This is something I guess everyone has to decide for himself. I'd wait.

Add to that the curious fact that a great many southern blacks (quite likely a majority of them) regarded the "Yankees" as invaders, and willingly supported Southern the war effort in defending the home turf. If the South had seen fit to do the really smart thing...free the slaves and accept black soldiers into the Confederate Army, tens of thousands of blacks would have served in grey uniforms and fought the North. Some wiser heads tried to talk Jefferson Davis into doing just that, but he didn't listen. Big mistake.

That war was about many things. Slavery was just one of them, and it was the South's biggest political mistake to not change its position on that key issue when they needed to...when slavery had already been ended, for example, all through the British Empire some time previously. The USA was behind the times on that one, and was catching up to initiatives already taken in Europe well before the Civil War.

I already said that once a fight has STARTED one is obliged to fight. That was pretty much the case with Hitler, wasn't it? So where am I suggesting fighting Hitler with non-violence? Nowhere am I suggesting that.

Neville Chamberlain WAS the man who declared war on Germany in '39! People don't seem to remember that. He didn't want war in '38, because he didn't feel that England was ready for it (but neither was Germany, ironically!), and because he still thought there was a slight chance for peace...and because he needed time to rearm (and so did the Germans)...he tried negotiation. Would it have been better to fight in '38? Yes, probably. How was Chamberlain to know that? He thought Germany was militarily stronger than they were in '38.

Curiously enough, the USA thought (in '39) that England and France's declaration of war on Germany was premature! And unwise! And the USA stayed clear of the European war until Dec '41, when Hitler declared war on them instead!!!! (Unbelievable. He might as well have pointed a gun at his own head and pulled the trigger. Hmmmm...that would have been convenient, wouldn't it?)

An optimistic view of human nature is appropriate when used as a model to aspire to, inappropriate when made an automatic assumption about everyone. I'm optimistic about some individuals, pessimistic about others.

The Quaker point of view is one that places more value on life itself than on "winning" over an opponent. That takes great courage. Ask Gandhi. But fighting effectively on the field of battle takes great courage too.

And we can't all be Quakers...therefore let each be what he is and honor each for his own type of courage.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 05:06 PM

War is a self-perpetuating failure of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 05:07 PM

Brain fart. I meant "diplomacy", not democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 07:04 PM

A few thoughts from Einstein, on war, with the one I meant in bold:



    "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

    "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."

It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."


"Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Frankham
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

Hi Guest Satchel,

Guess I have to disagree with this position.

"The Quaker point of view relies on an optimistic view of human nature."

The Quaker point of view is based on religious beliefs that
war is intrinsically wrong now and forever.

" Non-violence wasn't going to stop Hitler, and even if he was the end product of violence, by the time he was a threat to others, no amount of talking was going to change things. Ask Neville Chamberlain."

We don't know that non-violence wouldn't have stopped Hitler.
There is no evidence to support that it would or wouldn't since
it was never tried. Chamberlain was not a pacifist. He was
an official who believed that Hitler wasn't capable of what he
did.

There is a misconception about non-violence. It is often
considered to be an inactive or passive pursuit and quite the opposite is the real story. It involves a kind of non-violent military campaign as was applied in India and the Southern US requiring a strong discipline and thoughtful tactical approach. In In the case of these two memorable historical examples,
it worked when it was employed.

The problem was that when the official leaders of the movement
were assasinated, the strategy was given up as being ineffectual. This is because even amoung the non-violent participants there
was a level of scepticism that the movement could not be
implemented without the leaders. The lesson from this is that
non-violent resistance must be understood regardless of who is
in a leadership position.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:56 PM

Bravo Frank!

Pacifism is not at all "doing nothing", nor "talking to death". It is actually a damn sight harder to employ than violence. It typically requires requires consideration of very long term consequences -not just immediate needs or wants. Perhaps these are why it has never caught on with the human race in general.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 09:01 PM

BTW, here's another great bumper sticker. I'm sporting one again for the first time in decades.

War Is Not Healthy Fro Children And other Living Things

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:16 PM

Yeah. Effective Pacifism in action takes more thinking, harder work, better planning, more patience, and more willingness to suffer on behalf of your ideals than violence does, and it requires more maturity and compassion too.

No wonder it is so seldom resorted to in human conflicts!

Besides, it's not nearly so profitable as war...from the point of view of the manufacturing sector, that is.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:23 PM

I imagine there are a lot of people who feel that if you are killed while engaging in passive resistance your're a "loser", while if you are killed while engaging in warfare, you're a hero. It seems to me that a lot of people have more fear of being a loser than just about anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:36 PM

It is very difficult to stop "bullying" in the schools when our leaders are engaged in bullying the bully. What are we teaching our children?

d

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:45 PM

For 35 years, the USA and the USSR argued, snarled, snapped, discussed, debated, and called each other names. But we never came to blows. For which I am truely grateful. Because I would be a crispy critter if we had, and so would you.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:10 AM

If we're going back to th 60s, the classic is:

FIGHTING FOR PEACE IS LIKE FUCKING FOR CHASTITY

still true

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:03 AM

You may have something there, CarolC. Personally, I always had more sympathy for MacBeth than Hamlet.

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:53 AM

It sure is, Dick, thanks for the reminder!

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 01:57 AM

What LadyJean said.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM

Yeah, it seems that the competitive mind would rather do ANYTHING than be seen as a "loser"! Better to be a murderer, a liar, a thief, a betrayer, an extortionist, an abuser, a cheat, a crook...just don't be a loser.

Pathetic, isn't it?

I once started doing random searches on Ebay to see if people had certain silly membernames...like "the idiot". Yup. There was a member called "the idiot". With further searching I found members who were called things like: filthy swine, jerk, motherf*cker, idiotking, stupid bastard, and every other self-denigrating name I could think of...EXCEPT ONE (big drum roll)..............

MAJOR LOSER

Apparently there is no one in the whole world of Ebay who can bear the thought of being known to others as "major loser", but there are people happy to be called "shithead", "the idiot", etc...

Tells you a lot, doesn't it?

Watch out for people who are always calling other people "loser". They are no doubt seeing themselves reflected in the mirror of life.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War is not the answer bumper sticker
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:03 AM

I can envision a world without weapons.


I can envision a world living in peace.



And I can envision us taking over that world, because they wouldn't be able to do anything about it!


Old Alaska Saying.