BS: You Get What You Perceive

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:32 PM

ANd as it happens, I DID get my psychology degree from a gumball machine. You got a problem with that, weirdo??

:>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:47 PM

I think people are basically good and learn to be bad. Look at little children. They will come up to you and say "I love you" just because they can. Then when they get older they learn not to say it anymore, except to family members. At some point it's considered odd say "I love you" to someone you're not having sex with or related to.

I know a man who's a bully. But he takes in farm animals that are past their prime, and cares for them. Yesterday he had to put down a mule that he was very fond of, and he was clearly distressed. So while he's a jerk and a bully on the surface, he has some love in his heart.

I think we are born with innately loving hearts, and as we get older, that love gets stifled by rules and conventions and what have you. Then you have the choice to either find the love in your heart, or forget about it and become bitter.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM

Amos

The only thing you are saying that I can read from it all is that people are good because you say so.

I am saying that people are bad. Rules, laws, and norms of society, along with how people are taught to learn, obey, and observe the rules of society, gives them the basis to reason what is good.

Well, at least gumball machines now are usually a quarter as opposed to a penny when I was a kid.

I don't always mean my language to be abusive. Colorful maybe. It does get the attention of the reader.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 06:21 PM

As long as everyone's havin' a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 06:31 PM

As I was saying, MG, you get the life you perceive.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

MG:

Fair enough. I know you have a considerate streak somewhere in there. I can't take the time to go in to the number of times I have seen poele change their behaviors toward the better. But we can agree to disagree, for now, and I'll save the gumball for you at a later date.

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:42 PM

Martin sez people are bad, and treats people badly... and sure enough, people act badly around him here... because of his 'projected' beliefs...

The US has destabilized two entire socio-economic infrustructures (Afghanistan and Iraq) with heavy bombing and military occupation... and now we wonder why democracy isn't happening in those countries...

A junky shoots up, and envisions a perfect peaceful world... but wakes up broke, hungry, and pathetic... in a delerium of paranoid animosity...

Some people play practical jokes on others incessantly, and in doing so, find other people's baggage amoungst their own...

Others, with a good heart and a gentle disposition, are gossiped about in slanderous ways inconcievable to the kind soul...

Sure... goodness doesn't always pay back like you think it will. But really, the challenges we face with our Love (if we stand up to the task and the acceptance), makes us better at loving...

Then, there's the saying: "If you can't beat 'em, join em!" ...yeh, well... if you can't beat 'em, maybe they are cheating... or maybe you are the game...

Or maybe the journey is much more important than the destination.

*Love more*.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 PM

not only do you get the life you perceive, you give the life you perceive.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM

You got that right, freda. And, if you think people are basically bad, then even when they do something sincere and positive, you'll either say they are naieve or doubt their honesty.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:27 AM

Yikes, I'm afraid I'm a bit with Martin on this one. I think it's quite true that one's expectations influence things, profoundly. My mother-in-law was always afraid of coming downtown at night, but did to see my wife perform. Sure enough at intermission outside a violent drunk came around like a train on schedule. I've never seen anything like it. It was ridiculous, never happens. Sociology will find it's own version of chaos theory.

I don't think people are bad, just not very good under most circumstances, and certainly not as good as we'd like to think under any circumstances. Anyone who feels pretty good probably isn't in a hard enough place, or very aware of the place they are in. There are limits to what a benign interpretation can meaningfully change, even if Robin Williams and Roberto Benini like to think otherwise.

You get what you perceive sounds a little like you get what you deserve, and I don't buy that either. I like Hamlet's version of it. Faulkner's take on the innocence of children is okay, too.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:56 AM

From my perspective, 'evil' and 'badness' in people are the result of an absence of empathy.

I find that what changes a person's way of treating others the fastest and most permanently, is when that person becomes able to put his or herself in another person's shoes, and know what the other person is experiencing. The exception to this, of course, is sado-masochists. I guess when they cause suffering, they're treating others in the way they would like to be treated themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:54 AM

A case in point:

Forty years ago, I spent a summer on a research station situated on top of an iceberg in the Arctic Ocean. There were 14 of us on the Island: ten scientists and 4 support personnel (a cook, two maintenance men and a ham radio operator.) becuase we were completely isolated for three months, we all got to know each other well, and banded together. When I first met the ham radio operator, I was fascinated with the contacts he was making with other radio operators all over the world, and was very friendly toward him to the point that I asked to share a quonset hut with him. I quickly discovered that he distrusted andyone with a college education. His perception was that anyone with a college education thought he was inferior, because he was only a high school graduate (which no one would have known if he hadn't told everyone.) Whenever anyone used an unfamiliar word in conversation, he believed that they were using it to show their superiority.

I spent three months trying to befriend Bob and convince him that just because someone has a college education or uses an occasional word that he isn't familiar with doesn't mean that they think they're better than him. It took the whole summer, and I finally convinced him that I didn't think I was better than him, and that I was a regular guy. But, that didn't change how he thought about everbody else. I wouldn't be suprised that if I met him today, he'd still feel the same way... maybe even more strongly because whenever anyone used a word he didn't know, it only reinforced his negative perception of college educated people.

And what about the other three support staff? None of them had a college education (one was an eskimo) and none of them felt that way.
They enjoyed people for who they were, and got along fine with everyone. The ten scientists were the same. It was the perception of one person that made them completely different. And, because Bob thought that people with an education thought he was inferior, he was always on the defensive.

I don't know if Bob learned anything that summer, but I did. Some people are so locked in to their perception of people that you can't reach them. If you do, as I did with Bob, it doesn't follow that you'll change their perceptions. You may just be the exception that proves the rule.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM

Oh, and Fred: I had to keep the title short, and that's why I expanded on it in the opening post. No, you don't GET what you perceive. You get the life you perceive. There is a major difference there. It doesn't mean that if you think people are criminals, you'll get held up all the time, or that if you think life is threatening, you'll break your leg. If there was any protection against being robbed by believing that everyone is a robber, I suppose that there would at least some benefit in believing that. But, other than using reasonable caution in your relationship with others, and the situations you put yourself in, there's no realistic way to avoid getting hurt (or robbed.) Or, getting cancer, or being in a car accident. You take normal precautions to reduce the risk. Truly evil people may get away with everything (including murder) and seem to be living a happy life, while wonderful, loving, generous people may be stricken down with a terminal illness. Like the woman we visit who is one the most generous, loving, modest people I've ever met who woke up blind one morning. She percieves God as good and believes in the basic goodness of people, so she finds a lot of joy in what might seem to others as a prison of darkness. Someone else experiencing the same thing might become bitter and depressed.
It's how you percieve your life that strongly influences the way you live it (as freda pointed out) and how you relate to other people.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:47 PM

We squareheads enjoy saying: "The way you yell at the mountains is the way they answer back."

At the same time, thieves, violent drunks, and other malefactors force accommodations to their behaviors, and deprive our lives of predictability, unless one lives in denial or naivete, as M-G says.

My opinion: Anyone in proper biochemical balance should be able to be happy in good circumstances, such as being surrounded by decent folk. Consider this exercise: Try to get there (to that contentment) while wading through deep shit. Enjoy it AS exercise. Then you've developed a useful skill, not relying on faith in externalities.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:36 PM

The real crappy attitude I can sometimes have usually occurs as a result of mistaking the mistake of believing what I perceive IS reality. If I percive person as good automatically, I can end up in trouble. (The reverse is true as well.) This is how we decieve ourselves into thinking someone cares about us when they don't give a rat's ass. I've done that, and I've gotten mad at people for not living up to my expectations. I really should be mad at myself for expecting something when I had no reason to believe I should and plenty of reasons to believe I shouldn't. Where did I get the idea that they cared? What lead me to believe they were even capable of it? I'm trying to stop that because it's much more hurtful than even a pessimistic attitude would be. It's a major wreck on the highway of life. A head-on collision between perception and reality.

It works a lot better when perception and reality are a bit closer, and not going in opposite directions. What I DO believe is right is to keep my mind open and to be willing to see the good in people and not automatically assume the person is 'friend', 'foe', or 'mostly harmless'. Once I see who a person really is and how they behave I have enough to call a perception. I believe this is necessary to sanity when it comes to love and your heart is invested.

In the case of people you don't really have a bond with, sometimes just a little undeserved faith in them can lead to enormous changes in their lives. I've seen it happen. The faith, on my part, is sill based on 'you CAN do it' rather than 'you WILL do it'.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:43 PM

Wow, look what Jeri just did, which I think everyone has so far missed: She made a distinction bewteen a "foe" and a "bad person."

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:32 PM

But Jerry, it's only the expansion I really disagree with. I actually do believe that if you think people are criminals the odds are a little better that they will act that way. To a certain crazy extent, I think that, guardedly.
And on the non-verbal thread I was just saying that I think it's rude to find offense everywhere one can. What I was talking about, I think, was weighing the fact that although some people always see prejudice where none exists, sometimes it does exist, right there. Many people practice prejudice without thinking they do, even in doing it. Hm. So maybe if I simply lower my opinion of myself, I become that much more blessed beyond what I think I deserve. Cool.
As for Bob, Edison had much the same problem, and was always playing cruel tricks on his college educated assistants. Not very nice, but I guess maybe it worked for him somehow. Reminds me of the great sadness between the brothers in the movie Raging Bull.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:50 PM

Funny thing, Fred: I've often found that if I treat people with respect (even though I've seen a darker side of them) at least some of the time, they seem to rise to the occasion. I've ended up forging a respectful, mostly enjoyable friendship with people who it seemed that very few other people liked. I guess it can work both ways.

And contrary to what some people have suggested, thinking that there is some good in most people (not Hitler... give me a break..) doesn't mean that you're naeive, or are going to end up beaten bloody in a dark alley. I see evil in the world, not something as chummy as "bad." Like everyone else, I live in the real world. But, perhaps because I believe in the basic goodness of most people, I may be more atuned to seeing it... and most importantly, to acknowledging it in others and expressing my appreciation.

Most of all I hate being called naieve because I can never figure out how to spell it..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:41 PM

I hope you don't think guest,heric is some people who called you naive Jerry (as one of two who used the word), because I certainly didn't intend to. If the subject strayed beyond the spirit which has carried people through the hardest of times, it's only because the opening presented many issues for thought (and I tend to be poorly focused.) Enjoy your evening and thanks for starting the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:49 PM

Between 'trust no one' and 'trust everyone' there may be an ideal road.
The hairs on the back of my tell me who not to trust.
Those who ask for trust are eliminated immediatley.
Those I would like to trust probably eliminate me
because they sensed I asked.

So like most people I settle for a high degree of isolation that lends more safety at the expense of unexpected opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:26 PM

No, Guest heric, I don't remember you saying that I might be naive. Actually, I wasn't bothered that someone would think I was. This has been a good discussion, and I've respected everything that everyone has said. Life is a balancing act, and we all seek to find a way to live positively, while not being gullible (I can spell gullible) or placing ourselves at unnecessary risk.

Funny thing about taking chances, though. Nobody wants to get hurt, including me. But some of the life-changing experiences I've gone through hurt like Hell (well, probably not nearly that much..) We are who we have become, not just because everyone we've trusted or befriended turned out to be trustworthy, or a friend. We are shaped as much by failure as success. I also wouldn't want to minimize the pain of trusting someone and being betrayed.. especially in a close personal relationship.

Wrote a song about it many years ago:

What do you do when the good times are gone?
Sit by the window and wait for the dawn
And you can't remember how things went so wrong, anymore

What does it matter how hard you tried
Or how many times you kept it inside
There's no more to say, and nothing to hide, anymore

Let the conversation roll on, wherever this thread takes it. It's good to talk about stuff like this.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:37 PM

I also meant to mention the upcoming Oscars, which is sort of a spiritual holiday for me. It restores my lack of faith in humankind.