Pont y Gogledd,placename query

Subject: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:50 AM

I'm doing a bit of research on some Welsh tunes, and hope a Welsh Mudcatter might come to my aid. I have come across the name Pont y Gogledd, which I take to mean Bridge North or Bridge in the North or North Bridge or something along those lines. Now, is this a place in Wales, or is it the old Welsh name for Bridgenorth in Shropshire? Any ideas, anyone?

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: Crane Driver
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM

Well -

It all started with King Edward II. He was the one who conquered Wales. He obviously had an eye for the future, because he set up a scheme under which one county of Wales would transfer to England every century until there was no Wales left. This process travelled down the England/Wales border, moving the border westward, which is why there are so many Welsh placenames on the English side, in what is now Shropshire and Gloucestershire. So Bridgenorth certainly could have been originally a Welsh town called Pontygogledd (your translation is correct). However, it's a pretty generalised name, and I wouldn't rule out there being other North Bridges in Wales.

FWIW, at the start of the 20th Century, Monmouthshire was due to transfer into England, and at the start of the 21st, Glamorganshire. This would have put Cardiff into England. Understandably, the English didn't want it, and the process was dropped. However, Monmouthshire did cease to be a part of Wales in 1901, and was not formally re-incorporated into the Principality until after the 2nd World War. The Declaration of War in 1939 was made in the name of "England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Monmouthshire". The peace treaty in 1945 left Monmouthshire out, so Monmouthshire is still technically at war with Germany.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM

Not much left to be said on that, is there!

The new John Thomas fiddler's tunebook has Pont y Gogledd in it, but Cass (editor) hasn't put in any notes on that particular tune. I was just speaking to her 30 minutes ago; pity I hadn't looked in here earlier! When I'm talking to her again, I'll ask.

sian

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:02 PM

The Pont y Gogledd tune in the John Thomas MS notebook is precisely why I started this thread. i have for long being tinkering around with the using clusters of place-names in tune MS books for identifying where the musicians who noted the tunes were from (they often omitted to put sufficient information in their books, very inconsderately). Cass Meurig identifies this book on the basis of the dialect of Welsh used as coming from NE Wales.
   On the basis of tune name clusters I would hazard a guess at the Welshpool(Trallwng) area, but with no great probability of being within better than 20 miles. But I am intrigued by the Pont y Gogledd tune name. Is there a Pont y Gogledd in Wales(or several Pont y Gogledds??), or is Pont y Gogledd an 18th century name for Bridgenorth?
   John Thomas has plenty of north wales place-names, also Shropshire,Cheshire,Lancashire and Yorkshire...as well as much further afield as you would expect(Ireland, scotland, London etc). But we can often learn a lot about the music from the more obscure locally named tunes not known widely elsewhere. Anyway, one name wont affect the picture very much (that's the joy of clusters and statistics).North wales, very near the Shropshire border is my bet, for John Thomas. but for Pont y Gogledd, who knows.

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

I would suspect that there are a great number of places known as Pont y Gogledd. Now - this is purely speculation, but it's the sort of reference which I would expect to find liberally applied at a very local level. So, within what would have been the 18th/19th century equivalent of "Travel To Work" area, Pont y Gogledd would have been the bridge at the north end of an estate, or town, or parish. (Is there a North Bridge within the old areas of Shrewsbury or Chester, I wonder?) There are, for instance, a few places known as Pontrickets which, oddly enough, is actually 'Pont Rhyd y Gad' or 'the bridge at the ford of the battle'.   

I think John Thomas is, generally, 'placed' around the Borders/mid Wales area so it would be worthwhile looking at some old maps. My family are from a bit north of there, but I can't think of anywhere known as Pont y Gogledd. And as Cass also points out, I think, sometimes the Welsh fiddlers simply translated tune names ... so it could be a geographical reference to somewhere in England or Scotland, I suppose.

Good to hear that you've got the book, greg. Any further comments?

siân

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Crane Driver - you forgot Berwick

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM

Well, Sian, that was my suspicion. that someone might have translated Bridgenorth back to Welsh, or maybe it was called Pont y Gogledd already by pweople in John Thomas' area. In either case, we would not be looking for a Welsh place at all.

Subject: RE: Pont y Gogledd,placename query
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM