oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Cuilionn
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:53 AM

Regairdin the North American revival o Scottish Gaelic, tak a luik at the websicht o "Slighe Nan Gaidheal" in the Seattle area: www.slighe.com. That's whaur Ah stairtit ma ain Gaelic studies, an they're gearin up for "Feis Shiatail 2004" in mid-June, a muckle guid opportunity for onyane wantin tae study Gaelic music, language, & culture. They bring teachers ower frae Scotland & Cape Breton for several days o instruction & several nichts o unforgettable ceilidhs! Ah'm savin up ma ain siller tae attend... 'twuid be guid fun tae see some ither Mudcatters there!

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

The character of the black cook in Kipling's Captains Courages was based on two real people, identical twin brothers John and George Maxwell from Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia. They both spoke Gaelic as their mother tongue and both were great Gaelic singers. These two men worked on the salt bank schooners . Before Kipling wrote his book he sailed on a schooner to the Grand Banks fishing ground and based his novel , although fiction, on some real life people.
John and George were sons of a runaway slave who escaped from a plantation to Cape Breton, where the common language of the day was Gaelic. That was the enviroment in which these brothers were raised.
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:32 AM

Now I'm beginning to wonder, Greg, if you might be on to a cultural phenomenon that may have existed in the somewhat vague area between "Slavery" and "Indentured Servitude".

An Ancestor of ours, James ADAMS, was a "Loyalist Scot" who came up on the losing side of the Battle of DUNBAR in 1650. Some luck was still with him, however, as he was not among the many Scots who were slaughtered while trying to surrender or flee, and somehow managed to survive the subsequent Death March and squalid confinement with fellow survivors in a little church for months.

At length, he and about 60 of his fellow survivors were packed into the HMS "UNITY" and shipped as "Indentured Servants" to the Colonies where he was essentially "sold" to the Saugus Iron Works in what is now Massachusetts.

Apparently someone, bless their hearts, smuggled some Lawyers in about the same time, and everybody took to suing everybody else for about every real or contrived grievance they could imagine, and within about 7 years of consistant losses the Iron Works went out of business and ADAMS quietly faded away to Salem where he was active in some organization to help and advocate for fellow Scots Immigrants.

Since the distinction between slavery and servitude may have been a bit vague, and in some cases perhaps even moot (I don't think that Adams had a lot of options at the time) it is concievable that they lived and worked together on at least some occasions, sharing cultural elements such as language.

The work of the Mariner seems to have been one of the oldest truly integrated vocations from time immemorial, and even during the American Civil War the US Navy held to this tradition even when the Land Services were strictly segregated.

It well may be that Sailors of Color, slave or free, picked up Gaelic from the Crews and/or Officers of ships they sailed on.

There certainly is a strong African influence behind the whole concept of the "Sea Chanty" as well as their musical construction, so it stands to reason that a lot of cultural interchange went on at sea.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:10 AM

I would tend to agree with you Greg. I am no expert on how languages developed or spread in America from early immigration to the decision to adopt English. I suspect that different ethnic groups settled in particular areas. Presumably slaves adopted the language of their masters? I would anticipate someone somewhere has done a study of this. I would not be in the least surprised if it were the case that 18th century slaves spoke Swedish, German, French Spanish, or any number of other European languages.

Please forgive my ignorance, but could you be a little more specific by what is meant by oldtime music?   My limited understanding is that some of the European musical traditions 'branched' some surviving more less intact others going into the melting pot as it were. This depending as much on geographical location as much as intent. I understand some bands and performers today, like 'Le Vent du Nord' from Quebec can trace their origins back to the French Breton tradition. Cape Breton in Canada as has been pointed out in earlier postings is rich in Scots Gaelic traditions. Although there was once a strong link between Scotland and the Carolinas, I understand Gaelic has not been spoken in the south for some generations, although interest still survives.   Are there regions of America that might be thought of as being Irish Gaelic or Galician? In this context I fear oldtime music might be one of those terms that means different things to different people.

Galen, I hope all these various points of view are not giving you too much of headache. There must be some Gaelic singers here on Mudcat who could drop into your pub sing or circle. And as you point out this is an oral tradition.

SM

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:13 AM

Stage manager: thanks a lot. I will look into this, it looks very interesting. I find it difficut to credit that there can ever have more than a tiny handful of black gaelic speakers, but I'll look it up, and maybe be convinced otherwise. I must say that I do feel that the majority cultural influence on what one might call oldtime music was predominantly English and black, with a hefty admixture of Irish, scottish and Welsh: in contrast to the tendency ofa lot of TV and magazine writing, which tries to push an Irish and/or Scots origin.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:43 AM

Hi Greg,

This is where the "slaves speaking Scots Gaelic" started for me:

Willie Ruff

My Apologies, Willie Ruff is Professor at Yale not Harvard.

I have mentioned this to people interested in the subject and a number of them have pointed me to literary references. For example, a character in a Rudyard Kipling story is a gaelic speaking black sailor.

Ruff believes that the slaves learned Gaelic from their Scottish slave masters, but there is a body of opinion which points to the possibility that they learned it from fellow white bonded slaves from the Highlands.   There is an incident referred to as "The ship of men" where some of the people that the lairds had "sold" to an unscrupulous captain escaped when the ship stopped off in Belfast on its way to the Carolinas. The incident caused a scandal and some believe is was the threat of this scandal being revived that kept Sir Alexander MacDonald and McLeod of Dunvegan out of the '45 Jacobite rebellion.

There are references to this "white slavery" (it wasn't quite the same as the iniquitous African experience) in "The Lyon in Mourning" A book of eye witness accounts and interviews written after the rebellion. This is a source for every writer on the subject and has been digitised by the National Library of Scotland and is available via the internet.

Gaelic as a language, if not actually supressed, was certainly deliberately marginalised after the '45. There is even a pretty vigorous debate about Gaelic medium education in Scotland today. The more I go into this, the more convinced I become that there is a side to the history of the British Isles that is in danger of being lost. A number of people have indicated to me that the Americas may be a better place to look than the UK, as the emigrants would have carried this history with them.

Sorry I have shamelessly drifted this thread. But I find this is a fascinating topic.

SM

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:36 AM

I'm intrigued by these slaves that speak Scots gaelic in the USA. Just how widespread was this> Can someone supply a reference?

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:18 AM

Clinton - RE.: " Just don't 'affect' an accent to sing a song..."

Is that the same as "FAKE" an accent?

Shucks; I do it all the time!
Mebbie I has a case of "Celtic Envy" or something, do ye suppose?

Living up here in Maine, I really ought to know better; nothing irritates a DownEaster more that some Summer Complaint - or worse, a TV Actor - trying to "Talk Yankee" and butchering it horridly, as they are rather wont to do.

It's proably about the same for a "Real" Celt having to put up with some dipstick Yankee trying to sing with a feaux-brouge, eh?

So if I ever sees ya at a session, I'll try to avoid singing, and just play my tinwhistle or something instead. And if I don't recognize ye and start lilting merrily away when my turn comes, I'll know who ye are pretty quick I suppose - the bright purple complexion, smoke at the ears, and frothing at the nose ought to be a clue by about the third bar... {8^{*~

UJ in ME

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Celtaddict
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:30 PM

If you have not yet found him, check out Patrick O'Flaherty. He has a website (can't make a blicky from work but will post address). He grew up in the Gaeltacht in Connemara and on the Aran Islands and so is a native speaker of Irish Gaelic, and one of rather few writing songs in the language. He is currently is the DC area. He sings in Irish Gaelic (and English) and plays accordion and also was described in "Irish Voice" as "possibly the best mandolin player on the planet." He can often be heard at Pat Troy's Ireland's Own.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: nelagnelag
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:44 PM

I have to mention something else possibly very interesting to people on this topic:

The book:

Green hills of magic; West Virginia folktales from Europe by Ruth Ann Musick

is about folktales told, largely by miners, who came from many places in the "old country". Very very interesting, no?

G

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: nelagnelag
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:26 PM

Wow.

I'd say "thank you!", but that doesn't do your postings justice. Looks like maybe I finally figured out how to ask the question.

So, who's interested in traveling back in time with me and getting some local song-circles going? One thing I'm noticing is that the "green beer singing" that st. patty's day in the US has become sloshes all over the oral tradition that I'm interested in.

I'm in the DC area of the mid-atlantic. Please feel free to send me a private message if you're interested in exchanging email addresses, etc. In my view, all of this started with community and oral tradition playing a big role, and as a fiddle-player friend has said recently, has become a "virtual reality" of sheet music and recordings, which really has little to do with the human side of all of it. (learning songs/tunes by hearing them in person and in the language!)

I am interested in getting back to where it really came from. For instance, what were people like and what was the oral tradition like that would create a song such as "Dulaman" - very poetically about seaweed? This is not a simple "question" I am asking. I walked across Spain this past summer, and started to get some feel for what it was like to really be living close to the land and other people, so I'm interested in exploring that, on a personal level, not just reading about it or imagining. I think I can possibly learn a huge amount about the music, myself, the country/people of origin, the times, and much much more.

Yes, Sean Nos, thanks for mentioning that. I have to look into that a bunch more, along with the other things mentioned.

Yeah, well, it's also my English language, I bought stock back before the bubble ;P , and I don't like the marketing, etc. usage of "celtic" either, but that's not the way I'm using it. I'm using it to describe the music of countries/people that are historically/linguistically Celtic. Of course, there were people there before the celtic tribes moved in, and that would be interesting too if that was very accessible. (Layers of celtic tribes, romans, many various other people, and industrial development/activity makes that difficult, I think.)

And yes, as anyone who has traveled to any place where people have been for a long time knows - old cultures vary quite a lot from village to village, so of course it is not "fair" at all to use a label to describe a big chunk of western europe. Celtic tribes/culture have been found from Ireland all the way to the Black Sea.

You might find things like this interesting or helpful:
http://www.unc.edu/depts/art/verkerk/celtic/celtic/project.html

While I'm at it, I'll mention: Wouldn't it be interesting to try to reconstruct (very hard to do, I realize) what music was like based on archeological finds and what we know about current local music in various areas in Europe, and the movement of people over time, cultural influences, etc.? Of course, it would be mostly very hypothetical.

As I understand it, the word "Celtic" comes from Greeks who traded and colonized up the Rhone river in SE france and were exposed to the "Gauls" as the Romans called them. The Greek word was "Keltoi".
Correction or more info, welcome by experts, etc.

Anyway, let's all take a moment to realize that reality is much more complex that we can describe, esp. by email.....................

Ok, thanks again! I really learned a lot.
G

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM

Regardless of the origins of some American folk music, evidently neither Scottish nor Irish Gaelic survived as a spoken language anywhere in Appalachia for more than a generation.

Also, despite the commonly held belief that the Southern Appalachians were "mostly" settled by the "Scots-Irish," the evidence, based almost entirely on a comparison of settlers' surnames with names in Ulster, is not terribly reliable, because the circa 1900 researchers counted a name as "Scots-Irish" even if it was equally common (in some cases even more common) in England or Wales.

We know now that the Scots-Irish were almost certainly the largest *single* immigrant group, but they were the largest among many minorities. *Most* early settlers were *not* Scots-Irish. Nearly as large was the second-largest minority, the English.

Immigrants from all of Great Britain made up by far the largest group of settlers from a single country (as Britain and Ireland were until 1922).

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:31 PM

I have found this to be an extraordinarily wide and fascinating subject. My own interest stems from brief observations, leading to a belief, that much of the history of minority cultures of the "The British Isles" may be locked up in some of the oral traditions in the lands of the Celtic Diaspora. One gets a very different view of the history of the 'old countries' from traditional song, anecdote and a few texts, than that history taught in mainstream 'English' education, certainly of my generation.

As others have noted on various threads, Cape Breton is a great repository, of song and story, and there are some excellent collections that have been made over the years.

I'd be particularly interested to know if you turn up anything from the Carolinas. For example, I keep coming across references to the slaves in the plantations speaking Scots Gaelic. There has been the pretty well publicised research from a professor at Havard that has led to the observation that some black church music in the South is traceable back to Uist in the Hebrides.   

I've been trying to find some transcripts on the recent conference at the University of Virgina on the contribution of Scots Gaelic to present American culture. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

I wish you the very best of luck, dig deep, because I feel sure that somewhere, there must be some depositories of little explored material. I know of singers this side of 'the pond' who have been stunned to find what they though of as their traditional music sung by or played by musicians from the most unexpected corners of the 'new world'.

What is even more extraordinary that in some cases this music is little altered in more 250 years. When I come across this sort of thing I feel the hairs tingle on the back of my neck.

It may be my overactive imagination, but when you do come across small morsels of this largely forgotten history, you don't so much notice them, they scream out at you! Perhaps you don't find this stuff, it finds you.

From other websites I am aware that there are small groups of people all over the world re-learning the various languages of their various 'Celtic' forebears. It is fantastic when they are able to tie in stories learned from grandparents into actual historical events.

I look forward to reading how you get on.

SM

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Alice
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

Galen, I'm in Montana and I sing traditional Irish and Scottish and British songs. I have a page of music links on my web site that may help you.
Click here

I like getting John Moulden's old recordings of Irish singers. You can order them from the link that says ULSTERSONGS. John's valuable participation in Mudcat threads can be found in many discussions of song origins. Get the old field recordings of singers as they sat in their kitchens and sang songs to collectors - a treasure trove of material.http://www.ulstersongs.com/

There is a great book of lyrics, music, and info with 2 CDs of Elizabeth Cronin. You can buy it online.
The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin, Irish Traditional Singer: The Complete Song Collection. Dáibhí Ó Cróinín, editor. Four Courts Press, Dublin. 2000. ISBN 1- 85182-259-3. 332 pp. Book plus 2 Compact Discs

Another great contributor to Mudcat is George Seto. His web site is loaded with song lyrics and info.Click here

Also get recordings of Joe Heaney - there is a great 2 CD set collected by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, songs and stories, a booklet included with lyrics and stories about Joe and by Joe about the songs.

Look for anything on the net about "sean nós", old style traditional singing. There are a couple of links for sean nós on my page and there are many Mudcat threads.

(Hi, Jean! Nice to see you in this thread.)

Have fun, Galen!

Alice Flynn
Montana

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Heely
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM

Joybell, I have to comment. I am an Australian American. My Mum was from Ballarat. Her Grandfather was a church musician for 54 years. His brother was an Australian operatic teacher, but they knew the old music from "home". Actually, home was Wales, for them. I sing Irish and Scottish in the STATES. Say "Hi Ya'll" to your husband. Heely

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

LOL @ Joybell ~

I have come to believe that all "Celtic" music travelled by way of the sea, and the New World sailor's first port-of-call was Newfoundland. :-)

GEST Songs Of Newfoundland And Labrador

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Oh! Happiness and joy! How great to hear such intelligent comments about the dread "C" word. Of course I've come to expect that from Mudcatters by now. Here in Australia, even though I have an American husband who has studied and sung American music all his life, I still get lectured at by ill-informed people. I'm constantly being told that the roots of all the songs we sing, as well as the roots of all bluegrass and old-timey songs are "Celtic" - by which they mean "Irish". I think that the makers of several documentories shown here over the last decade are to blame. I do wish, as I've just said on another thread, that the
everything's-Irish fashion would go away. Joy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

Thank you kytrad."England, ireland, Scotland, Wales mostly, with remnants of folk from several other countries " says it all. "Celtic" is a very useful term for classifying language families(but do remember the people concerned didnt call themselves Celtic. An academic linguist started using the term to classify their languages, and the term then started spreading). The most cursory glance at the surnames of oldtime musicians shows that the Celtic/Gaelic/Irish-Scots stuff you read about Appalchian or oldtime music can only represent a fraction of the truth.Folk music is wonderful, and true to life. Its origins dont need fictionalising, the reality is so much more lovely.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:06 PM

Bluegrass grew out of Old-Timey music (that's what the early old-time bands called it...e.g. Asa Martin, and earlier ones); Old-timey music grew out of the traditional ballads, love songs, fueding songs, play-party songs, etc. which made up the repertoires of the first settlers (on these shores) from England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, mostly- with remnants of folks from several other countries who made it into the mountains of Southern Appalachia. That's the progression I see because I lived through it all.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Heely
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:11 PM

I'd love to know where in the mid-atlantic that you are located. We are in Virginia. I have played in a Sea Chantey/Folk/Bluegrass group since 1970. We do what is called "early" bluegrass. We sing in Irish and Scots Gaelic - some Manx. I have a sea chantey workshop monthly in Norfolk to learn the old chantey tradition from the Old World. Also, I am a piper in the Tidewater Pipes and Drums, we have a gaelic speaking group associated with our Tidewater Scottish Society.
Last year I was honored at the opening of the "Roots of Virginia Music" Display at the Library of Virginia in Richmond. I play concertina, mandolin,fiddle and Guitar. We know -- from being often at Grandfather Mountain (The games have a Gaelic singing competition) and Apalachian State University ( and having lived 15 years in the Shenandoah Valley) that early Bluegrass music is the same tunes and themes as the Old Music of Great Britain. (Connect to threads on the movie "Songcatcher" My son is with the City of Washington Pipe Band in DC. We need to keep in touch . Heely

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Cuilionn
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:02 AM

Ane guid resource for consultation in the "Virginia Highlands" wuid be Dr. Michael Newton, a scholar & Scottish Gaelic speaker whae teaches some "Celtic Studies" courses at a university in Richmond, VA. He wis the host/convener o a November 2003 conference on the legacy o Scottish immigrants in the USA, an Ah'm sure the subjects o Irish & Scots-Irish influence were touched on as weel, seein as how they're weel-entanglit wi the rest o the tale. He micht be able tae direct ye tae Welsh/Breton/Cornish/Manx/Galician resources as weel.

There's alsae a group o Welsh language/culture/music students & devotees in Roanoke, but Ah'm no sairten how ye'd track 'em doon.

Och, an if ye ever happen tae come up tae Maine, aiblins Ah cuid set up a session or ceilidh wi some o the Celtic folk in this area. Ah ken a Cornish concertina player, a few singers o Scots, Scottish Gaelic, & Irish Gaelic, & ithers whae ken tunes an sangs frae Brittany & Wales, plus pipers o every description!

Best o luck wi yir ain sessions, sang circles, & ceilidhs!

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:00 AM

"celtic is a ladylike word for Irish"---eh???? The celtic origins of much of Scotland's culture and music is more than "theory". Welsh and Cornish tradition also is unmistakeably part of the celtic genre. And, quite rightly, Breton culture is mentioned. A wee tale [a true one!] which may have some bearing on the "celtic influence " on American music. Ali Bain, whose world-class talents on fiddle are, I'm sure, well known to most of those who frequent the forum here, once in conversation told me of one particular occasion which gave him some personal enlightenment re. the effects of transatlantic culture on American folk music. Ali was building material for a tv series he did on British tv --"Down Home". He told of arriving in Nashville, and being asked to play in a Pub [at least, as far as Ali was concerned it was the equivalent]. He duly took up his fiddle, and launched a medley of Scottish and Shetland reels. Ali reckons that before he was through his first tune, there were SIX fiddlers onstage playing along, note for note! And in every case, they had a different name from Ali for the tune being played. Influence can't be more direct than that, I'd reckon! Just by the way---the same Mr Bain insisted to our group that the finest fiddlers in the world didn't hail from Shetland, Scotland or Ireland---they are to be found in North America, and in Appalachia in particular.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Pied Piper
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:50 AM

Oh no, not the "C" word.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:25 AM

The author of "Singing Cowboys and Musical Mountaineers" (I've leant out the book, so can't check) did make some throw-away statement about the blue-grass thing being largely fictionalized. He didn't develop the theme which was a pity ...

And people tend to forget a whole body of 'folk' music when they talk about these things - that is, hymns. Although I don't know anyone who's done any work on it, I remember reading about Fasola - in Song of the Dove? - that its American origins traced back to the Welsh Tract (Pennsylvania was it? I should know that! Shame on me.) and there were other indicators among the 'tradition bearers' that would encourage me to believe that there was a Wales-USA connection there. (And yes, Wales is ALWAYS left out of 'celtic' ... which is why I don't like 'celtic')

And I would suggest that Fasola has a significant effect on American music, yes?

siân

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: nelagnelag
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:18 AM

Oh, and to clarify my "question" further (hopefully, I appreciate your indulgence, it's late and I do make mistakes, don't we all):

I'm also interested in the "oral tradition", which was in the original subject. I'll look into Cape Breton. For instance, are there song-circles where people practice singing in the original language from any of these "Celtic" (please bear with me) cultures?

In my humble-and-often-errant hypothesizing opinion, the oral tradition is where all of this "traditional" music comes from, since it was probably often sung by people in the countryside and passed down as such, and maybe not originally played on any instrument (except possibly a whistle or whatever was available, which might not always have been much - I'm talking a long long time ago, when some of the oldest songs we know of originated). So, in this sense the "oral tradition" constitutes the "core" or origin of all of this traditional music and tunes. That's why I think it might be interesting and important to look at that and explore it a bit.

If you disagree or have a correction, I am very happy to hear it and learn from you as long as it's polite and you actually have read my ramblings.

thanks and best,
G

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: nelagnelag
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:56 PM

Clinton,

I'm interested in singing in english and in "irish" and "scottish" and other "celtic" languages. So, I'm not "affecting" anything, just want to pronounce things correctly.

By the way, "affecting" an accent (in the language) actually does speed up the language learning process. It helped a lot when I was learning French and German.

Frankly, I'm surprised you jumped to accuse me of "affecting" something, since I talked about gaelic speakers etc. in the 2nd sentence. Do you mind reading what I wrote before doing this?

Others:

Yes, I realize "celtic" is a generalization that some people don't like, and I understand why.

Anyway, I appreciate the debate, though I was hoping for info like that which Sandy provided. I'm sure we can debate "celtic" vs. irish/scottish/welsh/manx/galician/cornish/breton all year :)
I should have been more clear in my original posting without the extraneous stuff.

(notice that "celtic" is much shorter - by the way, there is a reason I put the term in quotes)

Ed, as far as the "embodies to a large extent" - I am happy to be corrected if I misunderstand things. and I did qualify it with "to a large extent" :) I would not claim to be an expert on bluegrass, and shouldn't have mentioned it originally.

Greg:
Yeah, people in the "west virginia highlands" (as they call it over there) and so on were often called "scots irish". I didn't make any of this up. :) Maybe I'm wrong to call that kind of music "bluegrass". I'll leave that up to the experts.

Anyway, I'll re-say it without the extra wordage and maybe more clearly so I can focus on the info I'm particularly interested in. If anyone else is interested in this, that would be great:

I'm interested in traditional scottish/irish/welsh/breton/manx/galician/cornish/whatdidImiss
music in the original language, preferably in the mid-atlantic region. Please forget the original message.

I am coming from the point of view of enjoying this music, not a cultural statement, so there is really nothing for anyone to get offended about (though I'm sure that's always easy to do, being rude is pretty easy!)

Just that I'd be interested in hearing from people about that. I'm aware of webpages.

thanks for your postings and info,
G
--

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

"We'll also work on pronunciation"

Just don't 'affect' an accent to sing a song... \\

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

I have seen a couple of videos and other TV stuff on the history of bluegrass that tended to dwell on Irish or Scots origins(or possibly spme weird amalgam called "Irish-Scots", possibly due to the makers being unaware they are different places). One I watched in Ireland last year specifically identified the orign of bluegraa with "Irish-Scots Gaelic culture from the Appalachians meeting black music". Now I would not dispute the huge influence of balack music on bluegrass, but the gaelic bit seems a little strange. Soemhow, if that was true, I feel it would show up more strongly in the surnames of oldtime/bluegrass musicians, and also tune-titles.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

I think Celtic is a ladylike word for Irish, essentially, even though in theory it takes in Scots, Welsh, Breton and Basque, as well as Cornish and Manx.

How does Celtic relate to bluegrass? It seems that the history of bluegrass traces back to Irish music, and "Irish-Scotch" (that is, northern Irish) music.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM

Galen,
If it is Gaelic songs that you are wanting, Cape Breton is the only place in North America where that tradition still lives. A few of us still speak the tongue of our forefathers. I could direct you to some resources.
             Slainte,
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

I think English language folksong from the Old World probably had a slightly greater effect on USA folk music than Scottish and Irish Gaelic stuff did.
   Sing it for enjoyment by all means, though, of course.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Ed.
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 06:35 PM

Galen,

Could you please explain how bluegrass embodies the Celtic tradition?

I really don't understand what you mean.

Thanks

Ed

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

"We'll also work on pronunciation"

Just don't 'affect' an accent to sing a song...

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: nelagnelag
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:10 PM

Hi,

If you want to email me, I posted this thread.

G

Subject: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,galen
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:04 PM

Hi,

I'm interested in exploring and pursuing the "celtic" tradition of
music in north america. I realize bluegrass embodies this to a large
extent. My tastes lie a bit more toward "traditional"
scottish/irish/other music.

Just curious about this. One problem over here in No. America is that there aren't quite as many scottish/irish/etc. speakers to consult, and I like a lot of the old tunes in the original language, since they are simple and elegant.

We are getting a "pub sing" or "song circle" started to explore this,
since it lies at the root of where all this music came from, no?
We'll print lyrics and take turns leading songs that we sing together, to get familiar with the tunes. We'll also work on pronunciation and singing technique, etc.

Reply to this post or email me if you'd like to talk about this.

If you are in the Maryland/DC/Virginia, (mid-atlantic) area and a musician (including singer) or even just interested in getting involved, you are also welcome to join the following list:

mid-atlantic celtic musicians

Please read the intro message, and feel free to introduce yourself and your interest. Keep in mind you can get a "daily digest" or just read/post messages on the webpage.

best,
Galen