oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM

Thanks, greg. You beat me to the punch.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:28 AM

I'm pretty sure that would have been "Loyal" to the King... James?

Wasn't Oliver Cromwell the Champion of the Parlimentary Forces at the time (My sense of history is a little rusty here...)
Anyway; whichever side came up the loser (and got pretty badly massacred in the process) was the side James ADAMS was allied with.

I wish we knew more about his Scottish connection - where he was from etc.. but only a few shards of family lore have survived the past 350-some years.

So a "Lowlander" would more likely have spoken / sung in "English"?

Would that have been sort of like the "King James" English a-la the KJV Bible which was translated in 1611?

I don't know as if we have a lot of popular / Folk music from that time period, do we?

Other than the Pipes, harp, or lute - what sort of instrument would the "common folk" likely have played?
I'm thinking some sort of whistle or fife(?)

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

Yes yes yes.... all the above is true... however to really get a sense of Celtic Music in the US ....SORCHA DORCHA will be at the HALF KING restaurant and pub, this Wends. Saint Patrick's Day on 23rd street between 10th and 11th Ave. from 7 pm to 10 ... As expected Lorcan Otway on vocals uilleann pipes flute whistle bodhran and the great Jane Kelton on flute whistle and key board, Seanin An Fear on Mandolin, Joe Charupakorn on guitar... the joint is already rumbling, so stay from Give us a drink of water to An Phis Fluich, all yer ol' favs...
Cheers, Is mise, le meas, Lorcan Otway
(This message was generated on the plugometer designed by Spaw for the use of Lorcan Otway)

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM

I have a Gaelic speaking friend in North Carolina who has done extensive research on Gaelic singing both there, and here in Cape Breton. I have sent her a link to this thread in the hope that she will add her knowledge to this discussion.
               Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:53 AM

Uncle Jacqu: it doesnt get more cmuch more complicated than Scottish history c 1650(not to mention Englaish and Irish). Broadly speaking there was a civil war , Charles I got his head chopped off, Cromwell took over for Parliament, he died and Charles II was put on the thrown.Scots were involved on both sides(though it is a gross over simplification to suggest there were only two sides). Gaelic speakers fought on both sides inScotland, as did English speakers.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM

Sandy,

That's very kind of your friend. Sounds like the sort of input this discussion needs.

Elsewhere, someone has thracked down a collection of "Negro songs" from Nova Scotia. I wondered if anyone knows anything about this collection?

Negro Songs - C. Miscellaneous items re: black music and narratives collected by Helen Creighton and others; includes article entitled "Music of the Blacks" by Helen Creighton - ca. 1969, report on black music taped by Marvin Burke for the Canadian Folk Music Society - 1967, "Negro Music in Nova Scotia," Tape 1 collected by Marvin Burke - 1967. MG 1 Vol. 2803 no. 16

Bill

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Uncle Jaque

The battle of Dunbar took place During the English Civil War. This was essentailly between the Royalists and the Parliamentarians. This was the only time England got anywhere near being a Republic!

The Scots were mostly on the side of the Royalists, who were of course the Stuarts, first monarchs to have family claim to both the Scottish and English Thrones. ...All this was to end up with Bonnie Prince Charlie and Colloden 90 odd years later.

The Parliamentarians wre led by Oliver Cromwell, a man renowned for his hatred of Catholicism, and Scots and Irish in particular.

The Covenanters on the Scottish side were a bit of a cheerless lot as well. Between them if they sang anything it would probably have been psalms.

Anyway here are a few bits and pieces that I hope might be of interest

The battle


Extracts:

While Dunbar was commemorated as a glorious victory, the fate of the Scottish prisoners was one of the less glorious episodes in English military history. Of the 10,000 captured, half were released immediately due to their wounds or sickness. Not wanting the others to join up with Leslie and rearm, the rest were marched 118 miles south to Durham with the aim of sending them to the American colonies as labour. Given little food or medical help, and prisoners who tried to escape offered no quarter, only 3,000 staggered into Durham on the 10th of September. Once there, the food intended for the prisoners was stolen and sold by their guards so that two months later, only 1,400 were still alive. Of these, 900 were sent to the colonies and 500 indentured to fight in the French army.

From a Scottish Q & A page:

Is there information on soldiers that were captured in the battle of Dunbar?

Answer:   
The battle of Dunbar took place on 3rd September 1650 during the civil war. Cromwell (after having his men sing the 117th psalm) led his troops in a ruthless destruction of the Scottish troops led by General Leslie. Between 3,000 and 4,000 Scots died on the battlefield and 10,000 were taken prisoner. Around 8,000 Scots escaped, half of whom re-joined Leslie during the following few days.
An excellent account of the whole conflict is given in John D. Grainger, Cromwell Against the Scots, the Last Anglo-Scottish War 1650-1652, Tuckwell Press, East Linton, 1997 (ISBN 1 86232 064 0) from which I took the following quote: "On the day after the battle, in the midst of writing his victorious letters, Cromwell had released the wounded Scots prisoners, which disposed of half of them ... But he could not simply release the fit men to fight again. So the unwounded - about 5,000 men were then ordered south to be held by Haselrig [governor of Newcastle] at Newcastle ... The prisoners were rank and file, separated from their officers. A considerable number simply ran away, as soon as they could, before the English guards were organised ... The rest refused to move at first, until several were 'pistolled on the spot'. No food was provided for their journey ... There were still some thousands who reached England. At Morpeth they were turned into a cabbage field for the night. They were so hungry that they devoured the cabbage raw, roots and all. Sickness inevitably spread amongst them. In Northumberland they were the responsibility of Sir Arthur Haselrig..." (p55)
No-one was sure what to do with the prisoners. Cromwell asked that 'humanity be exercised towards them'. In true British fashion a committee was set up to consider the problem. In the meantime the men continued to die. By the end of October Haselrig reported that of the 5,000 prisoners sent south by Cromwell, only around 3,000 had arrived at Durham. He mentions 600 healthy men and 500 sick. he does not say whether the other 2,000 were living or dead.
The committee suggested using the men as labour in the coal mines or transporting them to America, France or Ireland. In preparation for this the prisoners were moved to London. On November 11th Haselrig was told to deliver 150 prisoners to Augustine Walker, the master of the ship 'Unity' who would take them to New England. Walker sold his cargo for £20 to £30 per man. 60 men went to the Saugus iron works at Lynn (the first iron manufactory in N. America) and 15 men were sent to Berwick, Maine (a few others, exact number not given, went to nearby York). This accounts for about half of Walker's cargo, we have to assume that the rest either died or escaped.
The last mention of the prisoners by the committee was that some of the sick men should be sent to the Blackwall pest house where the proprietor should be responsible for their keep and their recovery.

Your Family History looks to be spot on Uncle J.


Bill

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From:
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:59 PM

Hello my name is Dean Smith. My mother was the daughter of John Maxwell. Her name was Jesse Maxwell and she was born to Minnie and John Maxwell in Marble Mountain. She told me that her father spoke Gaelic and was a twin and since then I've been trying to find out more about these twins. I think John died in a mine although I am not sure. My mother was raised in Truro, Nova Scotia and she passed away in February 2000 at the age of 79. She has two brothers whose names are Bill and Gordon who are also the sons of John Maxwell and who currently reside in Truro. I would really like to learn more about the twins and see some pictures if there are any. Please contact me if you know anything.
Dean Smith

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:08 PM

Hi Dean,
   I once was told that one of the ladies who sing in the group "Four The Moment" was a descendant of John Maxwell. There are still descendants of George living in Whycocomagh.
As you post an E-mail address I will contact you there.
                Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

Dean,

I really hope Sandy's lead helps you out.   I'm awestruck. I really thought Kipling's story was little more than a literary curiosity that might point to something more interesting.

I never dreamed it would provide such an incredible demonstration of the persistence and power of oral traditions carried through successive generations.

Thank you for responding, and the very best of luck in your searches.


Bill

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

Pedantic note: Celtic is a ladylike word for Irish, essentially, even though in theory it takes in Scots, Welsh, Breton and Basque, as well as Cornish and Manx.>/I>

Basque is only Celtic in the same way that Chinese is. Neither of them are "Indo-European" languages.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:11 PM

Dean,
   The e-mail attempt bounced back to me. You will have to establish contact through this forum, if you so desire.
       Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,edis kadic Bosnia and Herzegovina
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 05:55 AM

i wuld like to become a usa soldier...if that is posible....please write me at [e-mail] if anyone can do something for me ....please

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:39 PM

I was surprised to read about Patrick O'Flaherty residing in the D.C. area; I had though of him as an adopted New Orleanian (like myself), but this explains why I haven't seen him for a while.

Patrick had been part of a local group, The Poor Clares, all of whose other members are enjoying some degree of visibility in their local solo careers. I should have noticed that Patrick was conspiuous by his absense, and now I realize that he's moved away.

His brother Danny is also a performer and singer, also bilingual in English and Irish, as well as proprietor of O'Flaherty's Irish Channel Pub in the French Quarter. I had always assumed the pub was a family business with both brothers involved as partners, but never knew for sure -- none of my business, actually.

Even when he was in town, Patrick was less visible than his brother as publican/businessman; his public identity was always that of a traditional musician, pure and simple. Danny has always taken on more of the role of "genial host" and entrepreneur first, and singer/musician second.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Anne Landin
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

I'm sorry it took me 7 months to respond to this thread, but I think it was going on during the time I was having major computer problems and then I forgot. Anyway, Sandy has asked me to add a few comments.   

In certain areas of NC, the Scottish Gaelic speakers who emigrated in the 18th century were predominant. That would be parts of the eastern and southern parts of the State. This group had nothing to do with the "Scotch-Irish" as they are called here, who were the very early traders in the western part of the state and later comers who mostly migrated down the Great Federal Wagon Road from Pennsylvania.

The Scottish Highlanders came directly to NC from the inner Hebrides, such as Mull, Jura, Islay, Colonsay, Gigha and the mainland opposite this area – Kintyre, and Skye from 1730's to 1805 or so. They were mostly Presbyterian – an important point when you wonder what happened to their music.   Gaelic was spoken for 2 – 3 generations, mostly regenerated by later emigrants, usually relatives of the earlier ones. By the mid 1800's Gaelic was dying out due to various things, probably the influence of other ethnic groups living nearby, and inability to get Gaelic speaking ministers to come to NC.   Fiddle playing and dancing was greatly discouraged there by the ministers by the beginning of the 1800's. Bagpipes were played for some period of time as a few have been handed down in families, although the current owners don't play them.

It has been very hard to find traces of their (Gaelic) music so I believe there was a gap in time between the Gaelic music (such as still exists in Cape Breton) and the old time, mountain or bluegrass music found in NC today. They still play Soldier's Joy and Miss MacLeod's Reel, but they learned it from other musicians, not from parents, grandparents, etc. in a continuing stream. There is a very good article by Larry Bethune from the Berklee College of Music, Boston, in which he traces the tunes of songs back to their origins. He didn't find many traces of Gaelic tunes, however, in current folklore. This paper was published in The Argyll Colony Plus, the Journal of the NC Scottish Heritage Society, within the last year, I think, but I don't have the reference at hand.   Another reference you might find of interest is an article by Rob Gibson called "Cowboy Celtic" in the Folk Tradition, 27, June/July 1998. If it's still available, this info was at: www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart414.htm.   

I have not been able to find a single mention of any Gaelic Psalm singing in the churches in the NC records. Charles Dunn and Michael Newton say "they must have" done it, but no one has come up with proof. It stands to reason that they did sing the Gaelic Psalms for awhile and probably through the style of "presenting", but if all the ministers except one or two in the earliest days were English (only) speakers, you can imagine it probably stopped very soon.

It will be interesting to see the Scottish TV documentary films which will be released in February (one Gaelic, one in English) which explores Willie Ruff's theories. Part of this documentary was filmed this summer in NC and part was filmed in the island of Lewis.
Anne

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Rob
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:54 PM

Hi, I came across this message board while searching some song tab's/chords. Just an FYI - there is a Gaelic College in Englishtown (where the speak, gaelic? :) haha), in Cape Breton. There mission is keeping celtic tradition, including music alive.

Might be a good point of contact for anyone interested.

http://www.gaeliccollege.edu/

Rob
[e-mail]


Contact Information
Gaelic College of
Celtic Arts and Crafts

PO Box 80
Englishtown, NS
Canada B0C 1H0
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM

A LOT of people forget that "Celtics" are Scottish too, and Irish music to most dimwitted Americans is a drunken rendition of "Danny Boy"...

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:34 AM

Thanks Anne, for sharing your insight with us!
          Moran taing agus cum suas e !
             Slainte,
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Larry Bethune
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM

As you notice, I am very late to this discussion, having found it surfing for more information on "Celtic" music.

My research, alluded to by Anne Landin in an earlier post, focuses on tunes, not words (directly). I have also been in touch with Dr Willie Ruff (also mentioned earlier) as many of his sources are the same as mine. His conclusion, though controversial, has some merit, from my view, though my own research shows that the music of the Hebrides bears some interesting similarities with music from West Africa and even Ethiopia. But that research is very thin at the moment. It would be ironic if the very clues that Willie and I hear in Hebrides music that influenced African-American music in the colonial America has its roots in Africa. What a hoot, eh?

Someone mentioned ship trade routes as being the "carrier" of these musical viruses and, though I have yet to fully explore that idea, it seems a rich track to follow. I agree with the idea that many tunes (remember, I am not focussing on words) hopped on ships with musicians (not pros but amateurs who had other jobs such as sailors and merchants) and traveled to far away places. The routes between North Africa/Mediterranean and the British Isles were many and full of cultural trading opportunities.

Still, part of my thesis is that, while almost anyone can put words to music, very few of us actually are tunesmiths. Ergo, I believe tunes change very little over generations while the words may change several times even within a generation. Though, of course over many generations, the tunes will change, but the DNA that makes the tune distinct rarely changes. Also, as a composer, I believe that popular (or folk) tunesmiths really deviate very little from their cultural norms, pushing envenlopes ever so slightly; adding new ideas they imagine or hear in other composer's music but only as much as the "folk" will allow before rejecting the new music created from a sort of musical dialectic process.

So...

I am now exploring my belief that Cecil Sharpe et al. made several incorrect assumptions about Appalachian music (let the battles begin!).

Most all folk "music" experts are actually folk "lyric" experts. This thread has been arguing about Celtic and Gaelic and it has been properly pointed out that we are mainly discussing language. Language does affect music within song.

But what happens when tunes meet a new language and a new culture? English people singing Scottish Highland/Island Gaelic tunes, for example?

First, we lose the language. So, a Scottish tune now has English lyrics. Then, because the Gaelic affected the rhythm of the tune (TUG-gah, snap from characteristic Scots Gaelic (Scots GAH-lick versus Irish GAY-lic) and then English language, finding TUG-gah foreign straightens it out to two even eight notes from its characteristic sixteenth-dotted eighth. Then, the pentatonic nature of the Scots music gets, say, a leading tone or seventh degree added to make it sound more pleasing to that generations English ear.

So, the Scots pentatonic and Gaelic-rhythmic tune gets English words and the melody gets altered to fit that culture and make the "folk" happy.

Cecil shows up and hears English, hears six or seven tones, and hears rhythms thta sound English to his ears. Ergo... they songs came from England.

Hmmm...

Now, I am not on some nationalistic bent. Actually, my quest leads back to Biblical times, more of "what did Jesus and Moses sing?" So, I have to get busy. But, my path so far leads me to believe Cecil jumped the gun, shot from the hip, a bit, and any other firearm image you can conjure up. My reserach shows a good number of his tunes found in Appalachia to have Scottish and/or Irish roots. I can find tunes that with slight alteration (as described) are older and found in Scotland, for example.

Now, that is no proof that they did not originate in England or Morrocco, for example. Maybe we can never find the actual folk tune Garden of Eden. But, so far, the older tunes I have found in Scotland before they got to England and Appalachia. Perhaps they did morph in England and then traveled to Appalachia. But, I would love to fill in the gap between the Colonial Highlanders (which were many in the Cape Fear Valley and beyond up into Appalachia) and the time Cecil and his songcatchers found what they thought appeared to be English ballads.

Enough. Just thought I'd jump in. Love to hear some response. I do not frequent this board so please be encouraged to send me an email at [e-mail]. Also, some of my reserach (older stuff) is up at http://www.dalhousielodge.org/Thesis/index.htm.

Thanks for listening.

Larry

Subject: Lyr Add: THE STORY OF GAELIC (A. McLean)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:09 PM

Hi Guest Larry! Welcome to this old thread.
Funny but I once wrote a song that addresses some issues that you raise. Nollaig Mhath Dhuibh! Merry Christmas!

THE STORY OF GAELIC

Once Gaelic was the language of the land,
Spoken here by every woman, child, and man,
For when God created Adam, He decided he would have him
Speak the tongue in which the angels sang.

Where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers flow,
At a time so many thousand years ago,
The people down in Babel built a tower that would travel
From this earth way up to heaven, so I’m told.

But the Lord, He wasn't very pleased at all,
And decided their construction He would stall;
So He took away their Gaelic, left them all ranting and raving,
Speaking languages each other didn't know.

But then the Lord spoke to a chosen few,
Saying, “Gaelic I will now give back to you,
For I know that you still love me and won't put yourselves above me.
The Gaelic will be just for me and you.”

Father John Angus Rankin used to tell
His people to avoid the gates of hell,
But when heaven's call you're heeding, the Gaelic you'll be needing.
It's the language of the garden; learn it well.

(c) 2002
A. McLean
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Dean smith
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:40 AM

Hi sandy i didn't you posted my families info online thats soo koo, you said there is a woman from the four moments who can be related to us here in montreal. let us/or her know. [e-mail]. thanks a lot.

Dean maxwell smith

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

Hi Dean,
Your recent posting seems to be very scrambled, so I am not sure that it is legitamate. I tried posting to that address in the past and it bounced back. If you are for real please post again.
                               Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:12 PM

Regarding enslaved & free African Americans speaking languages other than English, see this excerpt about the abolitionist speaker/activist, Sojourner Truth:

"Sojourner Truth was born in 1797 in Ulster County, a Dutch settlement in upstate New York. Her given name was Isabella Baumfree. She was one of 13 children born to slave parents. She spoke only Dutch until she was sold from her family around the age of eleven. Because of the cruel treatment she suffered at the hands of her new master she learned to speak English quickly, but would continue to speak with a Dutch accent for the rest of her life"

-snip-

Here's additional information about Sojourner Truth:

She eventually added abolitionism and women's suffrage to her oratory, often giving personal testimony about her experiences as a slave. In 1851, she spoke at a women's covention in Akron, Ohio. The legendary phrase, "Ain't I a Woman?" was associated with Truth after this speech.

After the Civil War ended, she worked tirelessly to aid the newly-freed southern slaves. She even attempted to petition Congress to give the ex-slaves land in the "new West." Truth continued preaching and lecturing until ill health forced her to retire."

Source:
Sojourner Truth

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:53 PM

This is very interesting Azizi!
It also raises another question in my mind.
There must have been a lot of oral history passed down among the early generations of plantation slaves. This must also have happened using the mother tongues from Africa. I would also think that song and music would have played a large part in maintaining at least remnants of these languages for a long period of time and that the line singing under discussion must have played a part.
   My question is what can be identified today in our English language as being part of this heritage? There must be a lot of hidden treasure there!
   The Gaels and the Blacks both came from tribal societies so there would be inherent similarities. Certainly the American Indian and the Gael have many similar customs that were developed an ocean apart. By examining our differences we often find that we are more alike than we first thought.
                  Sandy

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:11 PM

Sorry, I have no intention of hijacking this thread.

Short answer, there have been studies done on Africanisms in African American culture-among the Gullah people of isolated areas in the coastal South.

see: http://www.coastalguide.com/gullah/

and also among other African Americans.

After reading your post, I searched but couldn't find a book I know I have somewhere on African words in {American} English.

However, I did find this book Joseph E. Holloway, editor "Africanisms in American Culture" {Indiana University Press, 1990...

One chapter of that book focuses on "African elements in African American English". That chapter talks about "language behaviors".

****
There are also personal names that have survived, particularly from the Akan {Ghana, West Africa} cultures.

Of course, no discussion of Africanism would have merit if it did not focus on call & response tradition in music and speech.

That's some random thoughts, all only tangentially related to this thread's subject.

Again, sorry for the digression.

And may I say that I find the central topic of this thread interesting.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From:
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 12:49 PM

Just found this thread. Thanks, Alice for the kind words.

To Stage Manager, etc.

There is also a note in Highland Settler by Charles Dunn which Sandy didn't quote. He mentions that some emigrants to the states wrote back to Scotland that when they arrived in New Orleans that it was terribly hot. The sun had obviously burnt the skin of some of the people black as they arrived to hear Gaelic being spoken by some of the Southern Blacks working on the docks.

Here in Halifax, about 15 or 16 years back, a local Blues musician, Bill Stephenson, made a comment I keep recalling. Much of the Blues and Jazz owes as much to the Scottish and Irish traditional music as it does to African rhythms. They are an amalgam of the two cultures intertwined.

My own take on it is :
Country and Western music is a direct descendant of the laments of the Scottish and Irish. Their musical themes and dances form a great part of the Hill-billy music that spawned the C&W music as well as the Rock and Roll music which followed it. Add the rhythms of the African-American and you get the other half of the equation forming the Rock and Roll tradition. When you combine them in other proportions, you get Jazz or Blues. The Africans and Irish and Scottish people all worked together at the menial jobs. They suffered together, forming bonds that affected the music they would make. Into the twentieth century, those groupings would re-join again and give us the music we know as Bluegrass.

To me, all of those are related music forms. They're all great!

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 01 May 06 - 01:32 AM

Sandy (if you're still following this thread) - I'm a little puzzled over the stories of the Gaelic-speaking black twins, and I'm starting to wonder if there were actually two (or more?) different sets of such twins, and whether some of the stories got melded ... I remember reading an article in Cape Breton's Magazine (or was it still "Down North"?) about "the" twins, which sounded almost identical (so to speak) to your (and Kipling's) story, but if I remember correctly there was an interview presumably done by Ron Caplan with one of the twins, so he at least would have been alive in the 1970's. One of these twins worked as a sea-cook; the other worked more on land. My uncle told me he worked with that twin in the steel plant and that he lived in Whitney Pier. My uncle is 80 or so now, and I got the impression that the twins were more or less of his generation.

Anyway, my uncle told me a story that his brother told him about this guy:

My uncle's brother worked in the steel plant too, and one Saturday he and this black Gael and a couple of other guys were going off on some sort of an excursion. When they came to catch the Englishtown(?) ferry, there was no sign of action, so the driver got out to see what was happening. He came back looking unhappy. "What's wrong?" "We can't go across." "Why not?" "The captain says it's too rough." So, as you can imagine, there were a few sad and silent moments as this sunk in. Then the black fellow said, "Wait a minute", and he got out, walked up to the ferry and went on board. He was gone for the longest time as the others sat and waited. Finally, he came back and hopped into the car. "Okay, boys, let's go; he's taking us across." "What? How come? What did you tell him?" "Oh, nothing in particular; I just had a big talk with him in Gaelic, and he said he'd take us across."

I always liked the idea of that crusty old captain who would accept any man for what he's worth regardless of race, religion or creed - as long as he had the Gaelic.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:51 AM

Larry Bethune is speculating without, it seems, ever having looked at what Sharp did (and probably hasn't even seen the cover of one of his books, as he can't spell his name).

Look at Bronson's "The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads" for a comprehensive survey of how these tunes evolved. The two main points as far as Larry's concerned: very few of them are of Celtic origin, and all of them have changed a LOT over the centuries, ramifying into countless variants - tunes are nothing like as fixed as Larry thinks.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 09:40 PM

Jack, I am unsure why you jump to such conclusions over a typo or oversight.

Not only have I seen Cecil Sharp's work, I own both Sharp's and Bronson's work (and the Bronson book cost me dearly) and have analyzed mmuch (not all) of both Bronson's and Sharp's work. It seems you may have fallen into the trap of "variants" when a closer look will reveal very little that has changed in terms of the DNA of these tunes. Of course there are variants, but they mean almost nothing. Anymore than changing clothes can actually change the person. Added approach notes, ornamentations, even redirections do not hide the raw structure of a tune. Simple target note analysis will show that. In fact, often the additions or alterations themselves can lead one to identify the folk culture or "folk" that influenced the variant.

One need only make a cursory analysis of the arrangements of Marjory Kennedy Fraser of songs from the Hebrides to see (hear) how songs originally in Gaelic have been cleaned up and straightened out, and yet one can still find the earlier tunes through both melodic analysis and the comparisons to earlier transcriptions of singers from those islands.

Bronson's work was very good, Sharp's made conclusions based on language, and music analysis, it appears to me, took a back seat. It appears he had little understanding of the Gaelic language that may have affected or been the basis for some of the tunes. Read the work and you tell me on what musical basis he makes claims that certain songs are from England, not Scotland, or Ireland, or France, for that matter.

I would like to learn from you what leads you to believe that Cecil Sharp was an expert analyst. I appreciate his collections and what he did for preserving the music. I simply disagree with his conclusions as to what is English and what is Scottish. I am unsure, myself, but certain "genes" are more common to the music of one geogrphical area than another. In the end, I have read no one who knows where anything originated, but when you isolate a specific time period with a small window of time, one can identify those unique elements that make something Highland and something else Hungarian. With a bit more focus, the same can be done with Highland versus "English."

It's fine that you disagree with me, I am sure many do. But your response offers no factual analysis, falls into old traps, and only takes jabs at me based on the faulty analysis of others.

Odd, but does make interesting reading.

[I apologize for any typos or any other weird moments where I may have simply spaced out. I just don't have time to go back and proof this.]

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM

Sorry to re-open an old thread but I found a question to me from Thurg that remained unanswered.
There were two George Maxwells, father and son. George the elder was Kiplings black cook. His son George, also fluent in Gaelic and a great singer in that tradition, moved from Whycocomagh to Sydney as a young man and worked at the steel plant.

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: meself
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:16 AM

Thanks, Sandy. I'm still a little befuddled; I think some of my own impressions of what I've read and heard on the matter must be a little mixed-up. If I ever find that article again, I might get straightened out.

It seems to me that sometime after writing the above anecdote about the ferry captain, I asked my uncle about it again, and he said that the black Gael in question was NOT a twin, so he was probably either the younger George Maxwell that you mention or a Maxwell of the next generation ...

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:31 AM

"My uncle is 80 or so now, and I got the impression that the twins were more or less of his generation."
Almost certainly George Jr. If he were alive today he would be well into his 80's. He lived at Whitney Pier in Sydney and worked at the steel plant. A bit more here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NS-CAPE-BRETON/2006-10/1161519486

Subject: RE: oral tradition - 'celtic' singing in usa
From: meself
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for the link - it mentions the magazine article I clumsily cited: "Also [in] the 'Cape Breton's Magazine['], # 28, George Maxwell of Sydney tells
stories of his family. He was the s/o George Maxwell (the twin) and grandson
of George Maxwell, who came to Judique as a small boy with O'Hanley."

So the story of the twins that I remembered reading was, apparently, not the story of the George Maxwell (younger) who was being interviewed, but a story he was telling about his father and uncle. I think I've got it now ... (!)