BS: Costa Terror

Subject: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:21 PM

Just seen the mangled bodies of men ,women,and children,in the Madrid train bombing.   I was sickened by the awful sights.
A few minutes later I was sickened again, by the disgusting sight of Prime minister Blair and the Spanish Premier mouthing platitudes and crying crocodile tears.
The bloody fools, didnt they hear all those millions of voices telling them to think again before the war?
Think again, before engaging in a "war on terror" that can never be won by force.
Aye Tony ,Im bloody glad I dont have your head on my shoulders when I bed down tonight....Sweet dreams mate!!

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:28 PM

It is being discussed here, but nobody seems to care...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:52 PM

Thanks Guest...Iv just read the other thread , and everybody seems more interested in making jokes, than discussing the horrors of Madrid and London!!!....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

Well, considering that the title of that other thread is "Bush Makes Another Blunder", what do you expect. Are contibutors to that thread supposed to reflect on the Madrid bombings or expound on Bush's ineptitude? If you really want a serious discussion of the bombings, why don't you star a thread with a clear no-nonsense title like "Madrid Bombings"? You won't get a single joking response.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:38 PM

Point taken Bruce...I just thought that when the cause of Bushes'blunder became apparent,the Mudcatters would have settled down to contemplate so many deaths....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

Ake - what on earth are you on? I picked up the news a couple of hours ago. Yes, it's horrible in the extreme. Words can't convey.

But what is this link between today's bombs & the Iraq war? At the moment, all the reports indicate that the perpetrators are ETA, Basque separatists, & nothing to do with the Iraqi/ME situation.

I don't like Blair & I'll vote against him in the next GE. It's a bit much to draw a link between him & today's events, however!

R

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:49 PM

I haven't see or heard any news today. How about a link to the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:51 PM

Raedwolf ..."They would say that,wouldnt they?"
The last thing the Western governments want is a large scale attack by Islamic fundamentalists in Europe. So, blame somebody else as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:53 PM

As it was me who started the thread, I was sort of hoping Mudcatters would reflect on the seriousness of the subject matter, and Bush's failure to make even a simple message of condolence sound heartfelt.

One can't predict the direction of a thread once it starts; a good thread is always determined by the quality of the posts to it.

Maybe 3/11 isn't as important as 9/11 in some people's eyes, though I did try to make a few posts to let those reading the thread the singularity of this attack, but yes, you're right, people concentrated more on the 'humourous' side of it, rather than the insult to injury.

Guess there are only a few rocket scientists here...

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:58 PM

Thank you for that observation Bruce. And thanks for acknowledging it akenaton. I have been contemplating Madrid all day. I will be contemplating it for a long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:00 PM

First, until I read this thread I was unaware that there had been a terrorits action in Spain. Second, had I been aware, I would have changed some of what I said on the other thread. Third, I am a little pissed off right now so I will shut up.

I was able to find stuff on the events in spain by googling

madrid, bombing, march 11, 2004

I can't find anything to turn into a link. I'll look more.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:04 PM

Yes, Bruce M. The same was true for me at the time I posted jokes as well.

So how many rocket scientists are there here I wonder, Jim? You, that makes one. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:06 PM

"At the moment, all the reports indicate that the perpetrators are ETA, Basque separatists, & nothing to do with the Iraqi/ME situation."
Not true Raedwulf. Al Qud (Arab newspaper) have a letter from Al Queada claiming they hit 'the Crusader' (or rhetoric to that effect). With Spain's election coming up on Sunday, and Aznar's retirement from poltical life, it seemed like a golden opportunity to slam ETA on the eve of the vote. If that turns out to be true, then, one could accuse the Spanish Government of blatant opportunism
The fact that Al Quaeda has now been identified as the perpertrator, could well change the direction of the vote on Sunday.

Just type in 'Madrid Bombings' into your favourite search engine, brucie, the wires are full of the story.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Close enough, heric... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Over 170 Die in Bombings in Madrid, Spain
In the Spanish capital of Madrid, more than 170 people were killed today after a series of bombs attacks at three train stations during morning rush hour. At least 500 people were also wounded The Spanish government has blamed the Basque separatist group ETA for the attacks but no group has taken responsibility. ETA -- whose initials stand for Basque Homeland and Freedom -- have fought for independence for the Basque region of northeastern Spain for decades. If the bombing was the work of the ETA it marks by far the group's largest attack. In 1987 a bombing at a supermarket in the Basque country killed 21 people. But a prominent Basque party leader that has been linked to ETA said the group was not behind the attacks. He suggested the "Arab resistance" may have carried out the attacks. The Basque official noted that ETA usually phones in warnings. There were no warnings before today's attack. The bombings came three days before Spain's elections on Sunday. The country's political parties have suspended campaign for the elections. A government spokesperson described the bombings as an attack on Spanish democracy. The government has also declared three days of mourning. The Washington Post reports the attacks marks one of the largest terror attacks in Europe since the end of World War II.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Thanks, Jim. I found the above on the net somewhere. I have friends in Spain, and had I know about this, I would not have posted as I did to the other thread. However, I can do jack about that now. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM

No problem for me, brucie; I in turn was only offering my opinion on the direction of it, in response to Bruce's comments.

I wouldn't have mentioned it, otherwise.

But here we are discussing thread headers.....

Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM

Brucie... You are one of the last people that I would accuse of insensitivity. Knowing you quite well from PMs,I think of you as a sincere and most caring individual.
One of your many friends ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:28 PM

Oh, Ake, I'm not pissed at anyone here. I'm pissed at myself. I haven't seen a paper or heard a newsbroadcast, and no one where I teach said a word.I hope you're doing well, my friend. Not to worry. Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

it is 911 days since 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

And this is 3/11...

Is all of this directly proportional to 666, I wonder?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM

.... although, not to put too fine a point on it, I did post the news of the bomb attacks a good 20 minutes before the jokes started flying....

Apparently one train was 2 mins late, and had it reached it's destination on time, it would have been in a large railway station when it exploded, with even greater loss of life, probably.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

It's true that you did and Bruce M. and I missed it.

For fine points, I believe it has been 912 days since the WTC. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:24 PM

European news bulletins, including the BBC, has it as 911 days...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM

There's more -- the letter from al Qaeda tells the Muslim brotherhood to take heart, as they are 90% ready to strike again at the US. This time their attack is known as the "Winds of Black Death." Scary stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:31 PM

That sounds chemical/biological to me..

Madrid was known as 'Operation Death Trains'

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

Time to sell those shares brothers ....and head for the hills.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

As far as i know, there is no leap year extra day in the islamic calendar, this may account for the discrepancy in 911 and 912 days.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

BBC link Click 'Ere

Interestingly, and in the Mudcat context, it would appear that most posts so far are to rush into judgement and condemn Bush/Blair/The Spanish government.

Perhaps you should condemn the perpertrators ! Unless, of course, this is politically unfashionable.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Gareth..Bush and Blair were well warned by the anti -war lobby ,that their proposed action would result in more ,not less terrorism.
I think you know very well what was meant by previous posts,and are trying to "muddy" the waters.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

Someone is going to scream at us for discussing this. But I think it is a matter of counting September 11, 2001 as "one" instead of "zero," as would be proper in my estimation. Perhaps time zones could affect it, but I don't think so. (First plane hit aprrox 9:15 a.m. EST; First bomb today was 7:39 a.m in Madrid, six hours ahead of New York?) But from September 11, 2001 to March 11, 2004, all things equal, is 912 days by my calculator.

Please don't think I mean to trivialize this tragedy a second time. Please. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM

I think we are already doing that Gareth....

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:48 PM

I for one don't think that, anyway heric, but it still is a little sinister, all the same....

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:03 AM

Ake, do you believe that that the people who attacked the WTC, Embassies all over, then the WTC again, would then have stopped had not Bush and Blair decided to fight back.
Would they have said," OK now they have learned their lesson, back to peace and compromise." ?
They are at war with us because ot their racial hatred and envy of us. They will not stop of their own volition.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:05 AM

Sorry, that was me

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:00 AM

Thoughts should be with the victims and their families.

'The radius of the bomb was twelve inches
And the radius of it's effective force seven yards
Containing four dead and eleven wounded.
And around those, in a wider circle
Of pain and time, are scattered two hospitals
And one graveyard. But the young woman,
Buried in the place she came from,
Over a hundred kilometers from here,
Widens the circle quite a bit,
And the lonely man mourning her death
In the provinces of a Mediteranean land,
Includes the whole world in a circle.
And I shall omit the scream of orphans
That reaches God's throne
And way beyond, and widens the circle
To no end and no God.'

From Yehuda Amichai's 'Time'

Spain like other European countries has had it's fair share of horrors from its home grown terrorists. This latest seems to have the hallmarks of teamwork between different terrorist networks in its timing and precision. A most depressing prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:18 AM

Absolutely horrific and totally pointless, the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve. Another classic example, irrespective of what "organisation" was responsible, of a morally bankrupt group mandated by none, lashing out for no purpose.

As to the who? ETA still remains firmly in the frame. An interview on CNN this morning put it quite well. The "islamic" connection are the same crowd that claimed responsibility for the power outages in the US and Canada last year. Forensic examination of the van found yesterday and traces of the explosives used link this to explosives stolen by ETA in France three years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:44 AM

Part of The Telegraph's coverage can be found Here
However, the print edition this morning quotes (Page 1) "Shortly before, police found detonators and an Arabic-language tape with Koranic verses in a stolen van in the Madrid suburb where it was believed the bombs had been planted"

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

Talk about "racial hatred " in the context of Islam is misleading. Including Islamic fundamentalism. It's not about race, it's about culture and religion, and about different ideas about the direction the world should take.

It's still pretty unclear, and you can't trust anyone in this kind of thing - after all it's easy enough to leave a few Arabic language tapes around, or plant them - but I'd put my money on this being some kind of Al Qaeda operation rather than ETA.

And I feel pretty cynical about the haste with which the Spanish government tried to jump to picking out ETA as the culprits. The evidence about the "type of explosive" needs to be examined by some technical experts without an agenda, before it can be trusted.

"...the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve." But, if it was Al Qaeda, that would be the very objective. I would suggest that, in the mindset of the people responsible, "stiffening the resolve" would seen as a term for the kind of response likely to lead to bad mistakes being made, that in the longer run will undermine the ability of the system to survive. They may be wrong, but they aren't playing for a settlement and a negotiated end to the bloodshed.

That's where they differ from organisations like ETA or the IRA, or Saddam in his day. Those kind of distinctions matter. Know your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:41 AM

What a disaster.

The lesson - it is not possible to defeat terrorism with a "war on terrorism" because the act of war always acts as a recruitment message and streghtens the organisation you are trying to defeat.

The only solution is to address the underlying problem whether real or perceived. Example in N.Ireland the IRA was never defeated but they lost support once a peaceful and fair option was found. It will be difficult but it will have to be addressed in the Basque region and in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:40 PM

Some good points there MGOH:

I would agree that it is not about race it is about culture and religion, and it must be from within the ranks of those who ascribe to that culture and religion that the fundamentalists have to be disuaded from their current activities. I don't think that there is any doubt about the direction of the fundamentalists, "different ideas about the direction the world should take" - backwards and nobody is going to follow, or support that course, the vast majority of the followers of Islam included.

The Arabic religious tapes found in the van could signify something, or absolutely nothing - it's early days yet. As to the "haste" with which the Spanish Authorities came out and said that this attack was probably the work of ETA - well can't say as I would blame them for making that connection. By the bye, Kevin, you tend to feel pretty cynical period, for you it appears to be a natural condition. With regard to the forensics, I would imagine at the moment the only agenda the technical experts have is to determine the what, who, when and how. I don't think anything else is on their minds and I do not believe that they are being pushed in any particular direction politically or otherwise.

If this was perpetrated by ETA - they will have less support in the Basque region today than they had before the attacks, people who were prepared to turn a blind eye and keep quiet previously, will be less inclined to do so now. If those who did carry out the attack thought they were under pressure before, they will now be experiencing far greater activity on the part of the French and Spanish authorities. If this was an Al-Qaeda, or a like-minded fundamentalist group's, operation, it will serve to focus the minds of police, customs, immigration and intelligence services. It will increase the awareness of the general population. That is what I meant by saying, "...the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve." If Al-Qaeda's aim is to bring down "western civilisation" then they are in for a bitter disappointment, the survivability of our system Kevin is not in question, they can do nothing to destroy it, but they can kill, maim and ruin a great number of innocent people in their efforts.

Your statement: "They may be wrong, but they aren't playing for a settlement and a negotiated end to the bloodshed."

There is no "may be" about it - they are 100% wrong. Their stance and activities can in no way be justified and have, rightly, been universally condemned. The latter part I am in complete agreement with you on - there is no settlement to be reached with Al-Qaeda, or like-minded groups, there is no negotiation. To counter their efforts the law enforcement and intelligence agencies of the world do have to go onto a "war" footing, they do have to co-operate and exchange information to an extent that has been hitherto unprecedented - That is the "war on terrorism".

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM

I condemn ALL of those involved, those who set the bombs in particular. Killing does little but perpetuate the violence.

What if every faction someday sat down and hammered out solutions to all of the problems? What would the leaders do when their following and power was gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:42 PM

I'm sorry to be a nit picker but costa means coast, and Madrid is near the centre of Spain, and has no coasts.
Apart from all that, I don't think that ETA was the perpetrator of this particular outrage. I hold no brief for them, but the modus operandi seems out of character. However I wish to express my sympathy for the innocent people who died in this cowardly attack.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

Teribus ...Could you please explain the statement ,"the survivability of our system is not in doubt", as I believe the opposite to be the case,and have set out my reasons for my beliefs in numerous other threads.
In my opinion the end of our system is a matter of," when do they want to do it.
Economic terrorism is so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:05 PM

Deepest sympathy to my many Spanish friends and the country I would one day hope to retire to.

ETA are denying they are the perpetrators (7.00pm UK time) and I am inclined to believe them. It would gain Aznar votes if it was ETA, lose them if it was Al Queda.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:10 PM

John ...I could have a stab at justifying my choice of name for this thread ,but I cant be arsed,as Im pissed off by the people who cant see the wood for the trees,and still think terrorism can be beaten by force.
If the might of the British military couldnt beat a few " bog trotters",how can anyone defeat thousands of dedicated fundamentalists.
The only hope is for the West to address all the obvious wrongs which they have perpetrated in the Middle East.
Show the Muslims that we dont want to destroy their historic culture.
There might still be a glimmer of hope ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM

By the bye, Kevin, you tend to feel pretty cynical period, for you it appears to be a natural condition. I've often enough being accused of being naive.

The same is true of you, friend Teribus - at times I would suggest that you also could be variously described as either cynical or naive. The only way one can avoid such accusations is to confine yourself to discussing things with people with whom agree about most things.

Actually in saying "cynical" in my last post I used the wrong word. "Scepticism" is very often justified, "cynicism" is rarely, if ever, appropriate. However the two words do tend to be used interchangeably, and it's too easy to slip into using the wrong one.

"The survivability of our system is not in doubt" - I suppose it depends what you mean by "our system". Already a lot of aspects of our system that seem pretty basic and pretty important have been badly dented. The question is not whether "our system" has "surviveability" but whether it will actually survive, and in what form. In a sense I'd say "systems" never really survive longterm, they change into other systems, which can sometimes be better and sometimes worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

I don't know whether it was ETA, al Qaida, or someone else altogether. But the suggestion that we can end terrorist attacks like this by "addressing all the historic wrongs perpetrated in the Middle East," or by "showing Muslims that we don't want to destroy their historic culture" is ludicrous. There are billions of people in the world who feel they have been wronged, and I will admit a lot of them have a damn good reason to feel that way. Add in "historic wrongs," and you've pretty much described everyone on the planet.

We can't appease away the terrorist threat, any more than we were able to appease away the Nazi threat in the last century. We need to continue to promote peace and justice in the world, try to right the wrongs that we're able to right, and keep groping towards a more perfect world, while acknowledging that we don't have all the answers and our efforts will invariably fall short of perfection. But when the bastards start blowing up innocent people by the hundreds, platitudes and self-examination will only take you so far; you have to shoot back, and pray that the good guys win.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:36 PM

Whistle stop ...Iv got a lot of sympathy with your arguement,and I too hate the idea of innocent people being murdered,but todays situation is very different from anything that we have encountered in the past. Now might is no longer sure to triumph,a few dedicated people who do not fear death, have the means to bring down a mighty nation.
Im afraid appeasment is all thats left ,before humanity meets a well deserverd oblivion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:44 PM

Akenaton: Blaming Bush for the tragedy in Spain is quite a reach. When is it going to sink in to folks like you, that Terrorists are enemies of us all? Bush and his counterparts are combating a enemy that is like none other faced before. The only way to defeat them is to destroy them before they destroy us.

DougR