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Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber

GUEST,Com Seangan 14 Mar 04 - 01:45 PM
Felipa 14 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM
Felipa 14 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM
Sorcha 14 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM
Felipa 14 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM
Felipa 14 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM
Com Seangan 15 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM
MartinRyan 15 Mar 04 - 04:33 AM
Com Seangan 15 Mar 04 - 05:58 AM
Com Seangan 15 Mar 04 - 06:08 AM
MartinRyan 17 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM
Com Seangan 17 Mar 04 - 12:33 PM
MartinRyan 18 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Philippa 19 Mar 04 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 19 Mar 04 - 07:58 AM
Felipa 20 Mar 04 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 21 Mar 04 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Philippa 22 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM
MartinRyan 22 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Sean Seapanach 06 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Philippa 27 May 04 - 04:57 AM
MartinRyan 27 May 04 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Philippa 22 Jun 04 - 09:23 AM
GUEST 27 Dec 04 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Philippa 01 Dec 09 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Philippa 01 Dec 09 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 09 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Philippa 02 Dec 09 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 02 Dec 09 - 03:20 PM
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Subject: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:45 PM

Could any kind soul help with the words and air of Caoineadh an Chrotaigh (in Irish) allegedly composed by Crotty the Robber's wife.
I have the Lament of William Crotty in English but am unable to trace the roiginal Irish. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Felipa
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM

I also only know some verses in English, but posting them here may help someone else identify Irish-language verses. Is this the same as the song you are requesting?

Oh, William Crotty, didn't I always tell you,
That William(?)Norris would surely sell you,
That he'd come round while you were sleeping -
You left me here alone, och ón, and weeping.

He wet your powder, he stole your arms
And left you helpless to face all alarms.
My bitter curse be on him and his,
That left you to an end like this.

-it may also be worthwhile posting a request at IrTrad-L or Gaeilge-A (both listserv@heanet groups, I access them via www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/liosta)or some of the other Irish language discussion sites on the web (there's quite a few!)


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Felipa
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM

I see from the internet that a bit in English sung on an album (mostly in Irish) of Labhras Ó Cadhra.
Here is an excerpt from a Music Traditions review
"... there are two song fragments in English.... One of them is a single verse about a certain William Crotty. On referring to Power's admittedly unscholarly book, I read that Crotty was a notorious Waterford highwayman of the mid eighteenth century. Moreover, Power* tells us, the song was sung in Irish in the Comeragh mountains up to the turn of the last century. Strange that Ó Cadhla did not appear to know it."

*Dermot Power, "Ballads and Songs of Waterford"

it might well be worth enquiring from singers such as Áine Uí Cheallaigh, Pádraig Ó Cearbhaill or Liam Clancy.


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

Maybe Aine could help? or Phillipa?


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Felipa
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM

That should be David Norris in the first verse. I had the name in my head, but thought I might be mixing it up with a contemporary politician

more lyrics and tune and historical info can be found at http://www.geocities.com/rathgormack/history/crotty.htm
but again the lyrics are in English


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Felipa
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM

sorry, I forgot to give this warning paragraph from the website I mentioned above
"This lament was supposedly written by the wife of William Crotty, the celebrated Waterford highwayman. The song would appear to be a crude translation of an earlier song which would have been sung in Irish. Up to the beginning of this century it was widely sung in Irish (as Gaelige) in the Comeragh area. Unfortunately that version has been lost to time."

I suppose that was the 20th century, but it seems strange that the Irish verses would be lost if the song was widely sung 100 years ago. (How does the writer know the song was widely sung in Irish at that time? Dermot Power's info again??) We won't give up on the query yet.


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Com Seangan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

Thanks dacent folk for helpful comments, but Felipa can't you leave poor David Norris alone, The ainnisoeir has enough on his plate dealing with James Joyce!!

I am surprised that Labhras O Cadhla did not have the Irish version.The man had some memory. My grandmother had the Irish version and she was the only one I heard sing it but she also said that the "sean daoine" used sing it. Dermot Power has done a mighty job in local history - but I did not see his comments on Caoineadh an Chrotaigh. I don't think the song has survived in Ring. I wouldn't think that Liam Clancy would have it in his repertoire.


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:33 AM

I'll check the possibility of a Ring version wiht Áine Uí Cheallaigh.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Com Seangan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:58 AM

To Martin
Thanks for the help. Sound man, yousir.


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Subject: RE: Crotty the Robber
From: Com Seangan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:08 AM

Felipa
Jaykus you're a divil for the knowledge !. Most helpful. Are you and Phillippa two different species ? That Rathgormack website is really good. For interested people the old (and correct pronunciation) of that village is Réidh gCormaic (pronounced "Raygormick). O'Donovan is responsible for the Rath - taken up later by Canon Power.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM

Áine tells me she knows of it - and thinks an aunt of hers may have the words. She'll check.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: Com Seangan
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 12:33 PM

Mo ghreidhn thú. That's fantastic.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM

Com S

Can you put up your English version? I spoke to Eamonn O Broithe this evening. He thinks he has a long version in English somewhere - and some locally collected folklore on Crotty.

Regards


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Subject: Lyr Add: WILLIAM CROTTY
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:20 AM

Here are the verses from http://www.geocities.com/rathgormack/history/crotty.htm, which I mentioned earlier. Maybe Com & Eamonn will have more to add re. the Eng. language version. I did mention Eamonn Ó Broithe in a p-m. to Com, but I didn't have any contact address - also I though Áine or Pádraig would come up with something re. the Irish language lyrics, if anyone can.

WILLIAM CROTTY

William Crotty I often told you
That David Norris would come 'round you.
In your bed where you lay sleeping,
And leave me here in sorrow weeping.
Ochone, ochone, ochone, oh.

He wet your powder, he stole your arms,
And left you helpless in the midst of alarms.
My bitter curse on him and his,
That brought you to and end like this.
Ochone, ochone, ochone, oh.

Oh the judge but he was cruel,
Refusing a long day to my jewel.
Sure I thought that would be maybe
See the face of your poor baby.

But tempers gold and traitors greedy,
Have left the poor and lowly needy.
'Twas you that heard the widow sighing,
'Twas you that heard the orphan crying.

Strong brave and true and kind to women,
Yet fierce and dread to Saxon foeman.
As thou tonight in gaol you're sleeping,
And oh I'm left in sorrow weeping
Ochone, ochone, ochone, oh.

O'er Coumshingaun the dark clouds gather,
You'll sleep no more among the heather.
Through the Comeraghs hills the night winds are sighing,
Where oft you sent the Redcoats flying
Ochone, ochone, ochone, oh.

Ahearn's gold bought Norris over,
That night the Redcoats round your cover.
May heaven's vengeance o'er them gather,
My baby ne'er shall see its father
Ochone, ochone, ochone, oh.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:58 AM

Philippa

Concidentally, I met Eamonn last night at a meeting to reform the traditional singers club in Galway. He promised to see what he had on file.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: Felipa
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 03:45 PM

to reform the club or to re-form the club?

does "Coumshingaun" = Com Seangan?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 08:10 AM

Com , Liam Clancy may not have the song about Crotty in his "repertoire" but I'll bet he has "tracht" of it in his collection of folklore, try him, I would.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM

and I recall a Bobby Clancy recording of at least the first 3 verses in English
Liam does sing some songs in Irish, but as Beachcomber says we are talking of knowledge and connections not necessarily repetoire.
I can think of some more people to ask, but we probably have enough feelers out at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM

Felipa

Reformation passed us by - so we'll just have to re-form instead!

Regards

p.s. I picked up a copy of Power's book (referred to earlier in the thread) at the weekend, in Inishowen.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Sean Seapanach
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM

I too am would rike the gaelic words for Croty the Robber, my frend taught me the tune so i would rike to play it for my band in Japan.

Arigato!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:57 AM

I had an opportunity to speak with Daithí Ó hÓgáin of the Dept of Folklore, University College Dublin, last night. He was very familiar with the story, could tell me "off the top of his head" all the info about William Crotty that has already come out on this page and at the Rathgormack history page (link above). Daithí even mentioned both the David Norris of the song and David Norris the present-day Irish senator! and he referred to the fact that this is the only song in English on a recording (I think he must have been referring to the Labhras Ó Cadhla recording, though I am not 100% sure that was the name of singer Daithí mentioned).

it is not looking hopeful that Irish words for this song have been retained by anyone, but it may be worth contacting Daithí Ó hÓgáin in future in case he uncovers any more information.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:48 AM

Philippa

I'm inclined to agree on the possiblility of Irish words surviving.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:23 AM

no, I haven't got more information on this song, but if you are interested in songs of Waterford and na Déise, and you can go to Dungarvan for the weekend of 9-11 July check out the programme for Amhránaíocht na nDéise

http://www.waterfordcoco.ie/council/categories/publicnotices/article387/Brochure%202004.pdf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:15 AM

Felipa. Counseangan is of coures Com Seangan. While you are at it Felipa have yoiu come across another version of the Connerys besides "A caimín mhallaithe". It was a local version with the words "Both a'Dúin na gCraobh". I don't think it was meant to be sung.

Com Seangan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:33 AM

unfortunately the link to info about William Crotty no longer works. I am going to search for similar pages. I wonder will Crotty be featured in the TG4 series Rapairí (Raparees in English spelling)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:34 AM

http://www.rathgormack.com/history/crotty.htm

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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:35 PM

There's a twelve-page chapter on William Crotty, plus the above (English language) song and an air (both entitled 'Crotty's Lament') in Stephen Dunford's 'The Irish Highwayman' (Merlin Publishing, Dublin 2,000).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:38 PM

thanks for that info, Jim
another website with some interesting info is
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ancaislean/carrick_people.html

both this website and the one previously mentioned say tht Crotty's lament was supposed to actually habe been composed in Irish by Crotty's widow. Rathgormack says that the Irish language original is lost whereas the other site says it is still sung in Irish in the region of the Cormeragh mountains. There is a fascinating, if sad, story about Mrs Crotty's life as a fugitive and her death leaping from Crotty's Rock to avoid capture, along with an English language version of a poem called STOL A'CROTTAIGH . Now I would like to find an original Irish language version of that poem and find out whether it was ever sung (or if it is singable)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crotty the Robber
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:20 PM

Philippa, There is a very interesting book by Sean & Síle Murphy'of Mahon Bridge (at the foot of the Comeragh Mts in Co. Waterford which has a comprehensive account of the "doings" of "Crotty the Robber" it was published back in 1999 so may not be in print but you may be lucky enough to get your hands on a copy. There is a verse of an old song , as Gaeilge, included about the location of his grave.
The book is titled "WATERFORD - Heroes, Poets & Villains "


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