BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:59 PM

Bush is a madman....where is Doug R in this thread? He seems to belive in him....

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM

McGrath, I'm not sure that the demonstrations prior to the invasion of Iraq were because people thought the war would end up in an unholy mess as much as they were about the morality of a "pre-emptive" (what a rationalization!) strike. Strangely enough, however, one of the reasons Canada didn't support the US and get into the war was because our intelligence people felt it would end up in an unholy mess, just as it has.

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:48 PM

It was about whether this was a just war, and essentially whether any good effects achieved (getting rid of Saddam) could outweigh the bad effects (some of which we are seeing today).

Arguments about "the morality of the task" are arguments about precisely that kind of thing.

I wrote "But it didn't need hindsight to know this was going to be an unholy mess, because outside millions of ordinary people were shouting themselves hoarse predicting it."

Are you really saying that we weren't predicting that it would all end up in an unholy mess?

(I just can't read the analogy implied in your last sentence - but maybe better not unleash an Irish argument in this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:46 PM

... and for most Americans (sorry Canada, I mean most US-ers), a pres at war is a pres with an ascending popularity/job approval rating. When we got into all this, I watched as while Mudcat screamed louder, the polls applauded louder. Very weird.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM

Kevin - IIRC the argument pre liberation of Iraq were more directed towards the morality of the task.

Please do not revise history to justify your stand.

Its akin towards suggesting that in Ulster the Good Friday Agreement justfies the facists on both religeous sides.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM

Of course Bush could always do an LBJ, and go on the telly and announce he won't be accepting the nomination to run for president. Don't hold your breath, mind - but the only thing stopping him doing that is himself and his monstrous conceit.

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM

I think.....that if I were Iraqi, or ANY Arab, I'd be making life miserable for Americans in any way I could right now---why, maybe even raising the price of crude oil-- on the theory that it can only help bring about a regime change in the USA in November, and a better Middle-East policy.

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

(Excerp from an article by William Rivers Pitt, here is the entire article.
)

    There is no simple solution. An immediate withdrawal will set the stage for an incalculable slaughter in an Iraqi civil war, more terrorism against the United States, half a dozen more wars in the Middle East, the world's petroleum falling into the hands of al Qaeda, and the potential for Pakistani nukes in the hands of bin Laden. Staying in Iraq, conversely, will bring us more dead and wounded American soldiers, more dead and wounded Iraqi civilians, more terrorism against America, and billions and billions more dollars poured onto the sand.

    The only solution involves a long-term strategy. Bush must be defeated in November, and a new administration that does not get its jollies by urinating in the faces of the international community must be elected. That new administration must pull out all the stops to bring a true international coalition into Iraq, so the American soldiers who inspire such demonstrable hatred from the Iraq people can be rotated home.

    The money being wasted on this Iraq misadventure must be rerouted to fighting actual terrorists like the ones who bombed the trains in Madrid. International money-laundering loopholes used by terrorists to fund attacks, loopholes which were left open by American Congressmen beholden to corporations like Enron which use those same loopholes to steal from stockholders, must be closed. The list goes on and on.

    None of this is guaranteed to work by any stretch of the imagination. The truth is we cannot stay in Iraq, and with our current leadership in America, we will not leave. Even after Bush is defeated in America, our forces will remain in Iraq until the international community decides to come and rescue us. Make no mistake, it will be a rescue.

    There are no good options for Iraq. None. This will be the legacy of this administration. Bush and his people have hung this heavy millstone around our necks, and we are sinking.

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:57 PM

"I didn't vote for him"?

Surely "We didn't vote for him"?
.......................

US kills 40 in mosque attack as Iraq conflict spirals out of control

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:53 PM

"The decision was taken by Donald Rumsfeld.." who said, approximately--

"There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan...all the good targets are in Iraq"

It reminds me of an old Mutt & Jeff cartoon...Li'l Jeff is on his hands & knees under a streetlight, and Mutt asks him what he is doing...Jeff says "I lost a silver dollar" Mutt gets down and helps him look for awhile...then asks "Are you sure you lost it around here?" ..."No", says Jeff,"I lost it down in the middle of the block"..."Then why are you looking HERE?", asks Mutt...."Oh", says Jeff, the lights much better here."

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM

Any Americans who plan to travel abroad might want to buy and wear this TShirt Thanks to WyoWoman for bringing it to my attention!

Don't forget to VOTE!

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

"But now they have tasted freedom, for the first time in their lives some of them. The bad guys are not going to go down easily.

"...now they have tasted freedom" - that's the problem. The point is "the bad guys" who are most in the picture at present are the guys who Saddam hated worst of all, and who hated him. This "the rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr" - his father was a Shi'ite cleric who was killed by Saddam in 1999.

They aren't fighting to get Saddam back.They are fighting to get the rod ofvthe occupation, and of the make-beoiueve regime that is being imposed on Iraq to fit the US Election timetable.

And up the road there are another bunch, for whom life under Saddam was at least better than it is now, and they are fighting too.

And up the road somewhere again, you have "Al Qaida", calling on Sunni Muslims to kill the Sh'ite's, in between killing the occupiers; and showing how it can be done.

All the headlines, inevitably, are about the soldiers from outside getting killed. But we know, don't we, that for every dead soldier there are a lot more dead civilians. Gunships firing missiles into crowded city areas - we never had that kind of thing in Northern Ireland did we? Is there something about ordinary people in Iraq that makes them more expendable as collateral damage than people in our own streets? Hell, it's not even that they look particularly different from us, and nor do a lot of the streets.

And this masquerades as a "War against Terror". Terror is what it produces, both directly and indirectly.

This is an unholy mess. And it won't be long before we'll be hearing how "well, it's easy to criticise with hindsight but..." But it didn't need hindsight to know this was going to be an unholy mess, because outside millions of ordinary people were shouting themselves hoarse predicting it.

.................

And here is an article pointing at a total cock-up that helped get us into this situation; and the people saying so aren't even anti-war, they are hard-nosed military experts: Violence blamed on US decision to disband Iraq army.

And who do they finger as the military genius in question? One guess, got it first time: "The decision was taken by Donald Rumsfeld, the American defence secretary, under pressure from right wing 'neo-cons' in the Bush administration."

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

Well said Harvey....
The Americans are now in the position of having to kill the very people they were supposed to have "liberated".
We are lead by fools!...They were warned by mass demonstrations,that war would mean more terrorism,and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
There are still people on this forum, and on this thread who would excuse this monumental blunder.   
When are they going to have the guts to admit they were wrong .

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM

Taking attention of the 9/11 commission, of course.

War sells... all the pretty pictures.

:~(

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: mg
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM

Of course there will be a quagmire and of course there will be terrorist reprisals. Were we so naive as to think not? But now they have tasted freedom, for the first time in their lives some of them. The bad guys are not going to go down easily. They have a lot to lose. Many are undoubtedly sincere and see things from a religious framework we do not understand. Trust me, there are worse things than quagmires, and we might live to see them. Might not. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/aas0.gif

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM

well...you offer democracy..then say no elections and no, you'can't have an islamic state.
You offer freedom of speech...but close down a newspaper you don't approve of.
You offer to transfer power...but to a non-elected puppet assembly.
Next thing you know you're calling citizens revolting against their occupation, against their disenfranchisement, against their being told what they can have and what they can't have, against their being told what they can read and can't read, "the enemy".
There are millions of people saying "We told you so!"

Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

From Leno:

"President Bush got a little upset with a reporter for calling him 'sir' instead of 'Mr. President.' Man, how upset is he going to be after the election when they start calling him George again?"

From John NIchols' column:

"So who's the AP person?" demanded Bush.

"I am," the reporter replied.

"You are?" grumbled Bush. "Well, ask it."

"Sir, uh, in regard to...," the reporter began.

Bush stopped the journalist at mid-sentence. In a scolding voice, he demanded to know: "Who're you talking to?"

The AP quickly corrected himself. "Mr. President," he said.

Bush--who in 2002 acknowledged that "If this was a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator"--was satisfied that he had been properly addressed. He then allowed the reporter to continue. However, his reply to the question was typically short and perfunctory.

Perhaps, the reporter would have gotten a better answer if he had just said, "Your Highness..."

Subject: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

Why is the horizon receeding on the occupation deadline? Violence in Iraq seems to be escalating exponentially... why now? Sure feels like that quagmire thing we experienced in Viet Nam... sadly, the differences are dissappearing rapidly... it's getting ugly.

Are we setting ourselves up for terrorist reprisals? Seems to me this could make Viet Nam look mild...

...and meanwhile GWB is insisting on being called "Mr. President", rather than 'sir'...
ttr