Meanwhile in Afghanistan...

Subject: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:27 PM

Just in case we might forget that other front in the "War against terror, here an extract from a news item from today's Guardian (Civil war fear as Afghan city falls to warlord :

"Fighters loyal to one of Afghanistan's most powerful warlords have seized a major northern city from pro-government forces, raising fears that the country is sliding into civil war. ..

The forces of General Abdul Rashid Dostum, a special adviser to President Hamid Karzai, who is known for crushing his prisoners under tanks, invaded the northern province of Faryab on Wednesday…

During the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, Gen Dostum emerged as the leader of a pro-Soviet militia. He has since changed sides many times in three conflicts, turning first against the Soviet-backed administration, then against the mojahedin government that replaced it….

… As a leader of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance, Gen Dostum was a firm favourite with the US. He was rewarded with the job of deputy defence minister in Mr Karzai's first cabinet.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

oh, wonderful....

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:41 PM

Nobody ever promised that W would stabilize the world. Remember the old saying, "War is good business..."?

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:45 PM

Building democracies obviously is not Bushies major talent. Not this one or that one, or Iraq's. He just doesn't dig the nature of the beast, it seems to me.

A

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:49 PM

For a long time now, I have been thinking that the real goal, for the US, Britain, and one or two other countries, has been to cause as much destabilization in the world as possible. My guess is that they know that it's a lot easier and cheaper to rob a country of its resources when they only have to pay off petty warlords for access rather than paying an established, legitimate, democratic government and the people it represents.

So that's what I'm anticipating. The governments of the US, Britain, and one or two other countries will be doing everthing in their power to create as much instability in the world (including in their own countries) as possible for the forseeable future.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:52 PM

Gawd, Carol -- what an unpleasant thesis! But you could well be right, anyway!!


A

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:54 PM

But you could well be right, anyway!!

I believe I am, Amos, but I hope I'm not.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

I think you are wrong Carol. Little things like diamonds excepted, it's very difficult to get anything out of a war-torn region.

However, I do think right wing governments seem to want their country's to run up enormous debts, thereby vastly limiting the power of future governments to govern with compassion; this is not destabilization, it's limiting the options. Reagan and Bush have increased US debt. Mulroney increased Canadian debt. Does anyone know if Thatcher first increased British debt to record levels before instituting her draconian reforms?

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:09 PM

This should be a BS thread, I think.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:55 AM

I do not for one moment believe it was EVER Mr Bush's intention to build a democracy anywhere. That is propaganda for the naive to swallow.

The intention of the Bush administration was to win victories and to secure valuable resources (oil) and strategic postioning in Afghanistan and the Middle East. He was also seeking revenge for past matters between the Bushes and Saddam Hussein, and between the USA and Bin Laden, but I think those would be in fact rather secondary considerations to the strategic ones.

Regarding "building a democracy"...the only intention the USA ever has in that regard is to build a compliant administration in a foreign land that superficially appears to be somewhat democratic (for propaganda purposes) while it does EXACTLY what corporate America tells it to do. A client state, in other words. Democracies that do not do what corporate America tells them to are brought down by assassination (Allende), undeclared war and other pressure tactics (Nicaragua, and coups (Venezuela...but the last coup there failed...there will probably be another).

These are exacly the same intentions the Soviets had toward client states in their heyday. It's empire-building, not democracy-building.

- LH

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM

We are living in an unprecedented era of graft, corruption, and greed. The Western governments have been busy dismantling their own democracies through privatization of the public sector, and by deregulation of the private sector.

The end result of voting for conservative regimes in the West is upon us. The global ruling elite has successfully merged corporate interests with the agendas of corrupt regimes through legal and illegal graft. One side returns the favor to the other.

This has only been possible because the citizenries of the world's democracies have been lazy, indolent, and selfish.

In many ways, we not only have the governments we voted for, but we have the governments we deserve. The heart wrenching part of this is that the Iraqi people, the Afghan people, the Palestinian people--none of them have power to influence our governments and they clearly don't deserve to be treated as the scum of the earth, and murdered on a whim. Yet that is what they've got, and we are the ones giving it to them.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:52 PM

I've though for a long time how strange it was that Afghanistan was completely forgotten when Iraq was attacked.

No news stories, no follow-ups.

Out of sight, out of mind
Except for those who have to live it.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:07 PM

There appear to be some positive developments in Afghanistan in spite of some Talibanoid resurgence:

see this story on progress in Afghanistan.

A

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: MAG
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:16 PM

RAWA said a long time ago that cooperation with the Northern Alliance would be on our own heads.
This enemy-of-my-enemy stuff has come back to bite us here (In Afghanistan) before. The anti-Soviets (now known as the Taliban) used to murder the teachers sent out to teach women how to read and write. these are the people "we" funded because they were anti-Soviet.

We will never invade North Korea; they don't have anything we want.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM

'Regarding "building a democracy"...the only intention the USA ever has in that regard is to build a compliant administration in a foreign land that superficially appears to be somewhat democratic (for propaganda purposes) while it does EXACTLY what corporate America tells it to do.'

Australia.

'Democracies that do not do what corporate America tells them to are brought down by ... '

Funny you should say that - the conspiracy nuts claim that sort of covert manipulation has happened in Australia...

:-)

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:15 PM

well things aren't so good in Afghanistan as your link would suggest Amos, the "relief agency Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) today said it was abandoning its work in Afghanistan after 24 years following the "unprecedented" murder of five of its workers last month."

It perhaps would have been more helpful if the American military hadn't on occasion disguised themselves as aid workers or linked receiving humanitarian aid to turning in information on their fellow Afghanis. Interesting too, that the good doctors are not so hopeful, regarding the plight of women.

More here regarding Médecins Sans Frontières in Afghanistan

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: GUEST,petr.
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:06 PM

in asmuch I disliked Reagan and Thatcher at the time
they represented a shift from the old tax & spend money you dont have
keyenesian economics system. at the time you had high unemployment
and high inflation, both of which should not happen under keynesian economics.
Sure the miners gave Thatcher a fight who wouldnt for their livelyhood, but then 75% of the mines were unproductive - cost 3 billion a year to keep them going.
Why should any of the state enterprises care if they made or lost money as long as theres a public treasury purse available.

as far as afghanistan - it will probably take a generation to stabilize and rebuild and thats only as long as there is international will to continue and help.

Warlordism is a real problem there, they ultimately have to be disarmed, and replaced with a national security force.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:49 PM

One of the biggest problems I see in the "new" Afghanistan is herion production .

Strictly controlled under the Taliban, Poppy production has rocketed since "liberation".
Now that any semblance of law and order has been removed, the usual criminal gangs have moved in.
Our military action in Afghanistan, has again proved to be counter productive,and will surely lead to more drugs on our streets,and death for more of our children...Ake

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 06:24 PM

Well considering the propensity of the Bush family doing drugs that might be a good thing.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 10:14 AM

Medecins Sans Frontieres are pulling out of Afghanistan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3931995.stm

Aid doctors to leave Afghanistan

Aid agency Medecins Sans Frontieres says it will pull out of Afghanistan because of the killing of five of its staff and the risk of further attacks.

The Taleban claimed responsibility for the June attack
Aid agency Medecins Sans Frontieres says it will pull out of Afghanistan because of the killing of five of its staff and the risk of further attacks.

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 04:09 PM

so, my above link regarding Médecins Sans Frontières in Afghanistan doesn't work for some, eh?

Subject: RE: Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 09 - 12:00 PM

Nearly eight years of war with Afghanistan, which was sold to the people in the US as a humanitarian mission to liberate the women being oppressed by the Taliban as much as anything else, and this is what we have to show for it...


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090526/national/afghan_rape_law

OTTAWA - A new marital rape law broader than one that sparked international outrage may be in the works in Afghanistan and Canadians must focus on the plight of women, a House of Commons committee was warned on Tuesday.

Testifying by video conference from Kabul, an Afghan human-rights campaigner pleaded for international attention and suggested backroom political deals in the Afghan parliament could further set back women's rights in the country.

"This situation is (a) very, very bad situation ... (people) are losing their hope for the future," said Soraya Sobharang, a prominent member of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

"We need your support. Please don't forget us."

She said she fears draft legislation now before the Afghan parliament will be modelled after a separate law for the country's Shiite minority which effectively legalized rape within marriage.

President Hamid Karzai signed a law in March that gave Shiite men sweeping rights over their wives, including the right to demand sex and restrictions on when women could leave their homes.

The measures outraged the international community and prompted the Afghan government to promise to review the law.

But Sobharang said she fears the male-dominated parliament will force through similar measures for the majority Sunni population and water down proposed legislation that cracks down on domestic violence.

"We are going back to a (time) like the Taliban situation in Afghanistan," said Sobharang, who noted her human-rights group had been warned months before the Shiite law was passed, but failed to persuade legislators to make significant changes.

The United Nations mission in Afghanistan and the European Union were also warned ahead of time about the legislation, but she described their reaction as "passive."

The NDP's foreign affairs critic said he's concerned that the international community - particularly Canada - have been placated by Karzai's promise to review the existing law.

Paul Dewar said the issue has not been resolved.

"We dropped the ball once and are we going to drop the ball again?" said Dewar, who noted Afghanistan is entering a presidential election campaign.

Afghanistan's constitution recognizes equal rights for men and women, but Sobharang questioned the reliability of the country's courts, which are composed entirely of men who have been accused of favouring husbands in divorce cases.

The security situation in Kandahar, where Canada has 2,850 troops battling Taliban militants, is "very dark," Sobharang said.

Women are often afraid of going out of their homes and concern escalated sharply in the aftermath of a vicious attack last November where terrorists sprayed acid into the faces of 15 girls outside their school.

Sobhrang said: "There is really no security in Kandahar."

The dramatic slide in security has been acknowledged by the Canadian military, which has over the last year been facing a more brutal breed of Taliban fighters, who have few ties to the community and no qualms about killing innocent civilians.

The United States is pouring more than 21,000 fresh troops and trainers for the Afghan army into the country this year. It's hoped the extra soldiers will restore order.