BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

Well, Rapaire I hope you had a good holiday, also. I know that there are Christians of great faith, ones who know the real meaning of their faith.

Are they though the ones who have giant Easter Bunny cut-outs on their front lawns and still have a string of Christmas lights up at the roof lines of their homes in mid-April?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

"Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st."

Dear GUEST, that's odd because the two parts of the "Greatest Commandment" actually quote Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:35 PM

Martin, no bunnies or yard crapola here. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 PM

It was a good holiday here, too. Family got together, the youngest boy participated in his last Easter Egg hunt, we played games and watched movies together.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:42 PM

Martin Gibson. Excuse me for not being "up" on my knowledge of the bible - although n truth I don't really give a shit what is in that superstitious pile of nonsense. However, God still behaved like a murdering thug. If God was just, he would have struck down the people who were responsible for the slavery of the Jews, not the indescriminate slaughter of the first born - and what sort of sick bastard are you that you so approve of this action? If the Old Testament God was human and did what he did today, he would have been tried as a war criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: bflat
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

Mark Clark, your earliest post is as my understanding after having some discussion with a theologian and two scholars of world religions.
I would like to add that, Jesus was in Jerusalem because of the Passover. I understand that observant Jews would, if possible, gather there for offering and sacrifice in the Temple. For Christians, Jesus' sacrifice by his death on the cross is the replacement of those sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus became the sole sacrifice as the Christian faith was in it's formation stages. I know of no Christian Church that actually embraces the Passover. It is my belief that modern Christians, seeking to understand their Savior have looked at the Passover as a source, as a document might be, to the night before Jesus was betrayed, with a seaching for the experience of Jesus. Christians recognize that it was as this Seder, that they were given the elements and symbols of a new covenent, today it is known as the Sacrament of Communion. As such, this is not a celebration of the Passover but a reenactment of a Seder for the symbolism. For Christians to celebrate Passover, they would need to understand the Exodus Story and know the word of God which told the Jews what to eat i.e. bitter herb, unleavened bread and that they should remember to keep this service every year in the month of Abib. And that they would set a chair for Elijiah and follow a hagaddah. This does not exist in the liturgy of the Christian Church. That does not mean that Christians do not appreciate what preceeds their faith, it is just not theirs. IMHO.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:25 AM

Ellen, Thanks for adding additional perspective to the discussion. You are probably correct in saying that no Christian group formally observes the Jewish Passover in the same way that Jews do. Still, Christian Pascha (the New Passover) includes all three meanings of Passover: saving the firsborn of Israel and freeing Israel from bondage, the Passover of Christ, and the opportunity for saving all mankind through the Blood of the Lamb.

We don't set a cup for Elijiah but we do honor Elihiah in the ancient Liturgy—The Liturgies of St. John Chrystostom and of St. James—and there is an Icon of the Prophet Elijiah on our Iconostasis, just to the north of the northern deacon's door. Christians do (or should) understand the Exodus story since the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” mentioned in the Nicene Creed holds itself to be the New Israel. We don't need to set a chair for Elijiah because all of heaven and earth (Elijiah included) celebrate the Liturgy and Eucharist with us, praising God and asking for His Mercy.

The Orthodox Church does not reenact the last supper as a symbolic act. There is nothing symbolic about our Liturgy or the Eucharist. I think Roman Catholics and Anglicans, at least, will tell you the same thing.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:33 AM

Elen, I think you've said very eloquently exactly what I'd intended to say in a few words. Why don't Christians celebrate Passover? Because we're not Jews! We have our own rites and practices. If we celebrated Jewish festivals and followed Jewish practices, wouldn't that make us Jews? Or am I too simple-minded?

Before anyone accuses me, I have nothing against Jews, or for that matter followers of any other religion. They do their thing, we do ours - same God, different form of worship. No problem. At All.

Maybe another, equally important question, touched on earlier, is 'Why have Christians allowed their Holy Days to be hijacked by the media and the big-business money-machine, to be turned into 'Holidays' - celebrations of the worst kind of human excess, whilst Jews have managed to keep theirs pure?".
Just wondering.

Peace.
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: jaze
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

Actually, Guest, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi Scrolls are outside the Bible but both discuss Jesus and his teachings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

Mark, I am sorry to say that for some Anglicans, symbol has become far more real than Truth, even in the Eucharist, as some of our seminaries have become more liberal, less Orthodox, more influenced by gnostic cultural influences (small g).

Christ and Culture is a great study by Niebuhr on the various paradigms for considering Christ and Culture-- such as Christ as being OF culture, Christ as being AGAINST culture, and Christ as TRANSFORMER of culture. What emerges in this study is that people wrangling about WHO Christ is, who may be so bitterly opposed over it, still tend to have an unexplored agreement on the paradigm from which to look at the issue. They tend to be satisfied with the illusion of reaching an answer. It's part of what drives the argument that goes like this, "No, you're wrong, it's THIS way," vs. "No, YOU'RE wrong, it's THIS way." By not exploring the underlying paradigm, we get to feel a sense that we are defending some essential trueness, when actually we are as far from truth as a hog is from the moon. Polarity is the harvest, not understanding.

In the US (I know nothing of the English church today), as a denomination we have seen an erosion of the willingness to contemplate mystery, the discipline to attend to our personal prayer lives, and the right relationship with God that would lead us to accept all the grace offered to us... many of my brothers and sisters look instead for personal knowledge and understanding, a liturgy that makes us feel good, and personal power and control over what we think is our world.

Beyond our doors, the rigid Rightwing fundies pay for and get all the press (except when we elect a gay bishop). We waste our time arguing with them and with the determinedly non-churched about whether to see Christ as being OF culture or AGAINST culture. We argue among ourselves over it as well.

To consider Christ as transformer of culture (starting with ourselves), we would need to admit we are not already everything we want to say we are... we would need to ask ourselves far more often, "Is God more powerful than we, and if so, what might that open up for us if we lived like we knew it?" Perhaps you might pray for us, that we be restored to that right relationship, in our own lives.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:56 AM

"Because we're not Jews!"

Depends on definitions - in a sense Christianity is a version of Judaism (as a religion), and Christians do celebrate Passover; but there's been a lot of divergence, and different rituals are observed.

The Easter Bunny stuff and much of the Christmas stuff is a pretty modern invention, driven by commercialism. I don't think you see many Easter Bunnies round church celebrations at Easter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:04 AM

Then WHAT ABOUT THIS?

:~)

Human beans-- gotta love 'em!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:07 AM

I'm a little late on this conversation, but I too have often wondered why Passover wasn't more recognized in the Christian church. I don't know that anyone ever answered me to my satisfaction, either.
I did see that at least one local Christian church here in Nashville was holding a Passover seder.

The Easter Egg tradition supposedly comes from the early Orthodox Christians, and a legend that Mary Magdalene turned an egg red as a miracle for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM

"Flogging the bunny" sounds likes something teenage boys do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

Guest bastardlove,etc

Hey, if you question why God does things, don't ask me, ask Him. He just might answer you. As you yourself, said "excuse me for not being up on the bible, etc"

Do you always participate in conversations with strong opinions on topics you claim you know so little about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

I think that is one of those Only-In-America stories, WYSIWYG...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Here is a link to an article discussing the Mary Magdalene story. Though the story describes an ancient event, it is—as the article indicates—a fairly modern extra-biblical legend. We do color eggs red (the dye comes from Greece) and they are distributed at the end of the Paschal Liturgy. I've heard many different legends rationalizing eggs as a Christian symbol and I have no way to validate or invalidate any of them. I strongly suspect, though, that eggs crept into Christian practice through efforts by the Church to coopt spring fertility observances of the pagans. Christians often adopted elements of pagan celebrations in order to turn pagan praceice into Christian practice. Christmas is a prime example of this.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM

I am not the type to knock other peoples beliefs but I have to say that:- I believe myself to be a true CHRISTian, which is exactly what it implies. A follower of Christ and His teachings. We follow Jesus'Commandments which may be found in chapter 5 of Matthew and although refreshed from the Old Testament are not the OT ten! also Matthew 23-37-40 tells us the Two great Commandments. Jesus also gives HIS NEW Commandment to us, which covers everything we need to practice in John 15-12. Being a CHRISTian means unswervingly following the words of Jesus. He did not tell us to celebrate the Passover but he did tell us to take bread and wine in remembrance of Him.. an instruction given at the Last supper..which hopefully...if you are Christian..you do! He did not tell us to keep the Sabbath which someone kindly pointed out, has not moved from Saturday to Sunday..merely been confused with it. From time immemorial there have been two factions on earth...Good which is given by God and bad which comes from the devil....I was in the grip of the latter until 1991 when I smoked heavy, drank heavy, womanised, fought often and was generally a pretty awful sort of guy. Since then my life has changed beyond regognition...I fall short of the Glory of God...as the Bible puts it... but I believe and you have to believe before you can begin your understanding..not the other way round. I say to all of you, keep seeking the truth..yes I said the truth..because satan will lead you up the garden path and back again to stop you finding your salvation in Jesus Christ.
I was lost but now I'm found...was blind but now I see....My suggestion to you is..get a Bible with Jesus words in red..or highlighted...read them and then make your mind up....I know that some of you(just by the things you have written already) are not ready to find Jesus...that's up to you..but I won't knock your belief so please don't knock mine.
My website should you wish to visit to view what has happened to me to change me so drastically is http://groups.msn.com/allforourlordjesus Please check out my Testimony and my healing.
Best wishes and God Bless you all. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:39 AM

FYI:

Passover is the ONLY holiday that the Jehovah's Witnesses observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

One aspect of the original question that hasn't been touched on yet is the date of easter compared to that of passover. The obvious answer is that Jews keep a lunar liturgical calendar and Christians don't. But it's more subtle than that. In the middle ages the calculation of the date for easter was a divisive issue. The only important Christian group that celebrated easter on the passover date was the Irish church. Since they also rejected the authority of the bishop of Rome (the pope), and for other reasons, their suppression became an important goal. The institutionalized anti-semitism that characterized much of Christian history is probably the main cause of the rest of the differences. It's worth noting that a pope gave the English king dominion over Ireland to 'correct' practices in the Irish church.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?

Seems fairly simple to me

"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."

If lovig the neighbor as well helps go do it, but HEY - frist know and keep the Law!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

The oester hare is a pagan god, from what I've read, and as others have pointed out, many pagan images and symbols were encorporated into early Christian holidays and ceremonies. Bunnies is fertility symbols, par excellance. Eggs is what babies come out of.

Like many symbols that have been copped for the Christian faith, new enterpretations have given a Christian meaning. I've heard pastors give sermons on the egg as a symbol of Christ in the tomb, with his resurrection compared to the new life springing out of an egg.

My best advice is not to get too lost in symbols and their origin. I don't care if a symbol is from outer space. It's the meaning that is important to me.

Come to think of it, maybe Easter eggs are really representatives of space ships that visited this planet.

OOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM

Mack/misophist, I think we talked about the date thing in the Good Friday thread. I appreciate your additional comments. Really the two threads should be linked.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

The wisest statement I've run across in some time is this:

"Beware of finding a Jesus congenial to you."

Yeshua was not a lawbiding person -- he ate with tax collectors and prostitutes and was damned for it by the Pharisees and Sadducees. He stated flat out that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." And if he brought a new covenant to people, he brought a new law: love God, love your neighbor. Seems to me that if someone is says that they are Christian then they must accept Yeshua's teachings and reject the ones he, in Christian teachings, fulfilled -- i.e., the Old Testament is fulfilled by the New, so the Old is irrelevant to Christians.

Even Peter had this brought home to him on the rooftop when he was told (in no uncertain terms) "What I have made clean you do not call unclean."

As for the controversy about the date of Easter, I posted a link to a discussion of it earlier, and here's another discussion of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

As Mr Gibson asked about the other holidays perhaps I have to restate the glaringly obvious point in yet another way.

When Yeshau kept all of them why do Christians not keep any Jewish holidays? And if you think that the OT is irrelevant I want you to think about this one, Yeshua left no written records, so all that you read is third hand or worse. Why would you reject the Laws given you by the creator directly and take a sidestepping way around the Law then to live an evil life?

Ask yourself this - how could you safely drive your car if you did not know the rules of the road. So loving people is not enough, you have to know right from wrong to do that. The Commandments provide the rules, you need to know them in order NOT to commit crimes against your neighbor.

If it helps, do love the neighbor as well, but if you move into my 'hood' I would love you a lot more if I knew you kept G_d's Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

As I said before, I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew, but this thread got me curious about the differences in how Christians and Jews view the Old Testament.

I spent a few hours wandering around in the Wikipedia on-line encyclopedia yesterday, seeing what people had to say about it in there. It was a fairly interesting few hours. One thing I learned, that I did not previously know, is that there was supposed to have been a set of commandments that preceded the ones given to Moses. Those were the ones given to Noah, and those were supposed to apply to all of mankind, since (according to the Wikipedia site), the Old Testament holds that all of mankind is descended from Noah. According to the entries in the Wikipedia site, the commandments given to Moses were supposed to only apply to Jews.

So apparently there is a tradition in the Old Testament of people getting new sets of commandments from God and applying them to new religious paradigms as they are purported to be given to people from God, as would have happened in the case of Moses getting the new set of commandments that were to apply only to Jews.

In fact, I noticed that it was a fairly frequent practice for people to get new sets of instructions from God (G*d), and then take their followers in all kinds of new directions as a result. So it looks to me like it would have been in keeping with prior Jewish practices for someone like Jesus to say that he had received new instructions from God (a new covenent, as someone else said here), and for him to anticipate that the whole of the Jewish faith might follow him in this new direction. I'm guessing he wouldn't have anticipated that, rather than taking his established faith in a new direcion, he would have been starting an entirely new faith.

Anyway, here's a link to the page in the Wikipedia site that talks about Jewish Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:58 PM

Carol C., that's kind of bullshit that the 10 Commandments were to apply for Jews only. If that is the case, why was there all that big hoopla recently about that judge way down there in your neck of the woods carrying on about having the 10 commandments in the courthouse and all of those rightous Christians carrying on when it was ordered removed?

I can assure you, as one who practices and observes Judiasm, that there is never any "laws to Noah" ever refered to in any services from any prayer book, nor is there little, if any reference to these so called Noah laws in the Torah. Noah was really a pretty minor character in the scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

This is what the Wikipedia site has to say about it:

All denominations of Jews hold that gentiles are not obligated to follow Halakha; only Jews are obligated do so. Judaism has always held that gentiles are obligated only to follow the seven Noahide laws; these are laws that the oral law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which apply to all descendants of Noah, i.e. all of mankind. The Noahide laws are derived in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 57a), and are listed here:

1. Murder is forbidden.
2. Theft is forbidden.
3. Sexual immorality is forbidden.
4. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden.
5. Belief in, and/or prayer to idols is forbidden.
6. Blaspheming against God is forbidden.
7. All gentile societies must establish a system of legal justice to administer these laws.

I can't tell you why Christians follow the Commandments from Moses rather than Noah, except that maybe they consider that to be a logical extension of the origins of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Hey Rapaire, at last someone who knows what they are talking about and hey...to the others...I tried to explain that the ten Commandments have been replaced in my last little foray into these pages...please read my previous writing on this and see which of the Commandments still exist by the word of Jesus the CHRIST in CHRISTian.
His Commandments are the ones that count..
OLD Testament..NEW Testament..OLD Covenant...NEW Covenant...get it????
We have changed from the Old to the NEW by the Grace of God through Jesus death and resurrection..as foretold by John the Baptist and prophesied in the Old Testament in Isaiah 52.
Followers of the CHRIST....who is JESUS...are CHRISTians. As such they follow His words and His Commandments.
Best wishes and God Bless, Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM

Except, GS, those who don't accept the NT aren't bound by the NT and, I for one, wouldn't even begin to try to force it on them. Nor would I try to force the dictates of the OT on anyone, or the teachings of the Buddha or Mohammed or Lao Tzu or anyone else.

In general:

I'll settle for you being a decent, responsible human being. If you feel the need to be saved, save yourself; I've got enough trouble of my own. If you feel the need to preach, I know of several open fields where you won't disturb anyone and the mountain lions won't disturb you. If you feel the need to save me, I suggest a top-notch protective vest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:07 PM

So maybe you can answer Martin Gibson's question, Georgiansilver. If the 10 Commandments of Moses have been replaced, why are so many Christians so adamant that they be a part of secular life in the US today?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Why should anyone draw any kind of general conclusions from anything that happens in the USA, except that, that's how they do things in the USA? That isn't meant in an unfriendly way, just a reminder that the USA is just a small part of a big world.

At one point this was a thread about people being curious about how things were done differently in other religions, and how far they were pretty similar sometimes under the differences. But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread. Is this really such a good idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread.

I don't know if you're including my posts in this statement of yours, McGrath, but if you are, you couldn't be more wrong.

As far as my question to Georgiansilver is concerned, since I live in the US, and Martin Gibson lives in the US, and since we are both impacted by the actions of people who try to promote the practices of certain religions over others here where we live, this is most certainly a legitimate question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:40 PM

GUEST - It's not that the ten commandments are irrelevant. I understand that the law culd not be changed.

But Christians believe that Jesus (Yeshua?) fulfilled the law by his death and resurrection. Jewish law was split into three basic categories: Ceremonial, moral and religious. Jesus fulfilled two of these categories, meaning that the Jewish ceremonial and religious laws no longer had to be observed.

The Passover was symbolic (Christians believe, and IMMHO) of the crucifixion (slaughter of the lamb saving God's people). Once the Crucifixion occured, such ceremonies were no longer necessary.

Jesus placed the two most important commandments above the original confining ten. This frees Christians by letting them do what is right, rather than what stringent religious law dictates.

Georgiansilver, I think I may have repeated what you said, much more eloquently, previously, so my apologies. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

Carol...Happy to reply to your question. There are many thousands of people all over the world who call themselves Christians but tend to forget the CHRIST bit of CHRISTian. He told us to keep HIS Commandments not the ten...these can be found in Matthew chapter 5. They do not include keeping the Sabbath, as Jesus BROKE the Sabbath with His disciples by picking grain(working)This not working on the Sabbath was Old Testament law and not relevant today.. Jesus...as was pointed out by a learned colleague in an earlier writing...broke many laws of the OT because He brought with Him the NEW Testament. The New Covenant..the New law was to -do all the thing concerned with loving each other as He loved us and to living a righteous life - John 15-12 was what Jesus added to the Commandments he brings to fulfilment from the OT in Matthew 5. The whole New Covenant is about doing Right..not wrong things...which is really covered in Jesus one Commandment..John 15-12...says. "This is my Commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you". Do you not think that the total of that one Commandment..if taken on board by everyone in the world...would bring world peace...and love...and understanding..and wisdom...and compassion. and..should I go on???
Hope this clarifies things a little or a lot.
Best wishes and God Bless. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for answering, Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

One phrase that keeps cropping up here is "I am the fulfillment of the Law". In a lifetime of observing public religion in the United States, I have not seen any detailed concensus of what this means. As a matter of fact, right wing speakers tend to trot it out to defuse any Old Testament citations that go against their arguments. While quoting the OT whenever it pleases them. The average person is bound to be a little confused.

Also, referring to Jesus as Yeshua is proper, I suppose, that being the original form of the name. But why not use the modern English version and call him Joshua? That should confuse everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:17 PM

except that, that's how they do things in the USA

LOL McGrath. It looks like you think we're all the same (all 270 odd million of us).

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

Georgiansilver

Just to remind you, to us Jews, Jesus is not God or a diety. A fine man, yes. But not one who we feel hasn't the right to re-write what was divinely given to our people on 2 tablets on Mt. Sinai.

Keep this in mind, GS. New testament bible spouting can be found on many cable channels at any time of the day by a whole cast of characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM

But rarely do I see the OT pushed at people in the same way!

Notice too that while 'Torah' is provided free as a zipped text file on several sites the NT is on the web but for a price.

The people here who continue to use the NT as a source of alleged utterances of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua are being misled. See the Hamadi texts for a start.

Perhaps ignoring the rest of the text of the Law where it says ' I am a jealous G_d, put not before me anything...' is a good idea if you want to pray to something else.

But what I do is bad becuase I turn your heads towards the Law that Yeshua commanded you to keep?

The Noahide Law is indeed valid and stands on its own. But it is a shortened version of the full Law. FYI the complete Commandments number 613, but these are not intended for all mankind only Jewish people. I once heard a comical account of this fact by a wit who should have been a Rabbai, he said the Jews could not keep the simple rules ( Noahide law )so G_d came back with a 100 times the burden of Law to teach them a lesson.

And I do not know of anybody who COULD get away with preaching to Xtians that they don't have to keep the 10 commanments.

Final comment - already noted above - the name Jesus is a cover for something far more interesting. In the time Yeshua lived this sound was Ha Zeus, which is pagan. So when you keep praying to G_d in the name of Zeus, who or what do you think is granting you wishes... warm haw ... hot maybe ... but it is still comming from hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:35 PM

The idea that Paganism is from hell is a belief just like any other belief. It is held by some people, but not others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

"Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?"

The Law as you call it is more than the 10 Commandments, remember? If you really want what Jesus said about the how the Law was being twisted you might want to read Matthew 23. The Law was being elaborated on, used to by some people to put themselves above others and became an obstacle to reaching God. The point is, as I said before, Jesus said out you could get all 10 of the Commandments (plus Noah's 7 if you look) from the two He quoted. They sum up the Law, the way God has asked us to live. Living by the spirit of the Law is much harder than expecting to have it all written down for you as the teachers of the law tried to do, but that's what we've Jesus said to do. That's what Jesus and Paul both are talking about.

BTW, GUEST, you can find that chapter of Matthew at The Bible Gateway where the major translations of the Bible are available online free. There are some other free sites, that's my favorite due to the breath of translations and the quality of it's search tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

Dear Guest,

Using the term "G_d" is nothing but an affectation. Use YHWH if you like, "G_d" is mere silliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:02 AM

McGrath forever! Only sensible one in the bunch!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:12 AM

You asked who we consider our ancestors, Martin. The whole human race are my ancestors, Martin. And that includes the tribes of Israel.

Why do you necessarily accept the specific version and interpretation of Jesus that was passed on to you by other people in the Jewish faith, when there are any number of other possible interpretations about the life of Jesus?

Nobody told me what he was. I have tried to figure that out by myself, consulting all available sources, instead of tieing myself down to one religion's unalterable orthodoxy.

How do you have such confidence in the architects of your particular Jewish tradition as to be so sure that they are right? They might be half right. They might be a quarter right. How do you know? You realize that you are merely taking the word of someone who took the word of someone else who took the world of someone else who took the word of someone else...and trace that all the way back to Abraham. Or is it the Book? And if it is, what makes it the ONLY correct Book? The word of someone who took the word of someone who took the word of someone....yadda, yadda, on back again to Abraham.

This is how the misconceptions of the fathers are passed on to the sons, yea, even unto the 77th generation. :-) And therein lie pride and prejudice.

Spirituality is based upon actual living experience and personal change and development. Religion is learned by rote. The former can produce enlightenment. The latter produces robots who practice organized religions. They frequently get involved in wars against other robots who practice a different organized religion, sometimes with some of the same founding prophets or leaders! (such as Abraham and Moses)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

Martin G....You may not recognise Jesus as the Messiah promised in Isaiah but I do...that is the simple truth. You have to choose your path as do I and I respect that but I get answer to prayer by the Holy Spirit, through Jesus to God as Jesus in NT directed us. "The only way to the Father is through me". Also have to say that the way I came to know the Lord Personally is in my testimony which is in the aforementioned website. You at least believe something..when I came to know the Lord it was by complete surprise..shock even as I knew nothing apart from the stories told of OT and the NT when I was a kid. I was in my 40's when I was shaken to the toes by the truth...I perhaps still am shaking. Please indulge me my belief as it is founded on more than just strong personal experience and study. I have no reason to doubt what I believe and no-one has shaken it in any way since my introduction to it. You have the choice of what you believe and I respect that but would urge you to keep seeking as it could affect your whole life as it has mine.
Please forgive me if you find anything I say offensive but I live for the Trinity.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....the Holy Spirit being what guides me and probably what you think of as conscience.
May the Lord Bless you all. Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:29 AM

Martin Gibson, the reason I don't ask God is because he does not exist, therefore, I cannot ask him; but since you seem to believe in the primitive superstitious backward barbaric nonsense that constitutes the old Testement, I thought I would ask you. So Martin Gibson, why is your God a jealous God if he is the only God; why does he commit acts of atrocity; why.....oh, a million other questions that a rational man would never be able to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:59 AM

Mark Clark: t's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

Yes and no...
I think it's true that for the most part, Jewish holidays have not become so commercial & secularized as Christian holidays. I suspect this could be because there's less money to be made targeting Jewish holidays for commercial purposes -- there are SO many more Christians (in the US at least).

However, I don't think Jewish holidays have entirely escaped this phenomenon. Chanukah (I believe) was originally one of the more minor Jewish holidays -- received much less emphasis & attention than it does today. I think this is in large part a response to all the Christmas hoopla; if you're a Jewish parent and your kids go to school with kids who are looking forward to Christmas for weeks & months, singing Christmas carols in the school's Christmas program (prolly doesn't happen much these days, but it certainly did 30+ years ago) and -- after Christmas -- talk with each other about all the Christmas goodies & presents they received, you may worry that your kids could be feeling a bit left out; may feel a certain amount of pressure to show your kids that Christians aren't the only ones who are having fun this time of year. Thus what was a minor holiday but happens to be the same time of year as *THE* big Christian holiday gets transformed into a major Jewish holiday -- which is beginning to suffer some of the same materialism/commercialism as the Christian holidays.

The other Jewish holidays seem to have escaped this kind of transformation, so far...

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

Strick, ok you have your point but, what about this one,

'Drive Carefully

But which side of the road must I drive upon?'

Therefore your Yeshua could not have intended the Law to be summarised into 'that' short form IF the person did not already know the 10 Commandments.

Besides he says as much in the NT. 'Do not call me good ... 'etc

In addition if the person did not know not to steal, lie, adulter etc how on earth could they be held to account?

Seems obvious to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

Because they don't have Jewish mothers !