BS: Band of Brothers

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

One doesn't have to look at this as some sort of commercial for war, or the U.S. or anything else. It's an excellent drama based on a history, in which people do the best they can in their outrageously difficult lives. It's plain good.

I don't generally oppose the sentiments per se, but feel that "flag waving" calls attention to the waver as much or more than the people it's supposed to honor. For example, I think Sgt. York was a conscientious objector, and that the media thing done to him was not really done for his sake or benefit.

I really don't believe people bean-count blood, or nudity, or naughty words as much as they say. It's a lazy excuse for not examining their feelings about it. Good drama can have anything in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:51 PM

As I've said before, Band of Brothers was a very well done series, best seen without commercial interruptions.

As regards honoring the slain, I honor all those soldiers slain in wartime, not just those on the "home team", because I am a member of one Humanity on this planet.

I may sympathize with one side, certainly. I would far rather the Allies had won in WWII than the Axis.

But...it is a fact that virtually ALL soldiers who are willing to fight at all imagine that they are fighting for right and for freedom. They are fighting for THEIR side's right and freedom to do things as it wants to in the way that it thinks is best.

Examples:

A. Geronimo fought for the freedom and way of life of his people, against an unstoppable intrusion of white settlers and soldiers onto the Apache lands.

The US Army fought the Apaches for the freedom and way of life OF those white settlers, who felt they had a perfect right to settle there, own the land, and not be killed by the Apaches.

B. The Confederates fought for the freedom to live as a sovereign nation in their own fashion, by popular decision, apart from the northern states.

The Union fought for the preservation of the previous political arrangement and to free the slaves.

Both sides believed they were fighting for freedom...and they were...their version of it.

C. The Nazis fought to regain lands lost at the end of WWI, to "save the World" from Communism and an imagined Jewish conspiracy (which was a fantasy), and to defend the homes and lives of Germans against foreign attack (England and France declared war on Germany...not the other way around). What I mean is...that's how THEY (the Nazis) saw it. They felt totally justified.

The Russians fought to defend their country against a foreign invader.

The British fought for principles of freedom, justice, etc, and because it was an overall power struggle for dominance in the World.

Ditto for the French.

Ditto for the Americans.

And so on...

The fact is, Freightdawg, the soldiers on EVERY side in any war fight for what THEY perceive as "freedom", not only for themselves but also for their future generations...their children and grandchildren. In hindsight, after a war is over, the victors always imagine that they and theirs have a monopoly on the desire for "freedom". This is absolutely untrue.

Now had WWII gone the other way, and had the Axis won, there would now be some proud old German veterans saying the same kind of things you say, but about their side, and insisting that the freedom of their children and grandchildren was secured by the victory.

I guarantee it.

And they would not even be aware of most of the terrible wrongs their side committed way back then.

Remember, most ordinary soldiers in war fight for what they deem to be good and honorable purposes. That is why I honor all the fallen. They did the best they knew how at the time, given their own level of knowledge and awareness.

And yes, I'm glad the Nazis lost. They had a crazy government. (For German soldiers, they naturally believed their government was in the right, as do most fighting soldiers, and they didn't realize how crazy it was until very near the end, if at all.)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: GUEST,Risky Business
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:02 PM

Dunno about that Little Hawk. I don't know that the Germans in WWII would have put it that they were fighting for freedom.

And i think it would have been far better if the Germans, English, French and Belgians of WWI had disdained battlefield bravery and queried what that war was all about and destined to achieve.

I think I understand your desire to honor all fallen soldiers, but I think it overlooks two separate issues:

Issue One: Often the difference between the fallen and the survivers is a matter of inches or split seconds. If someone fell in the first hour of the Battle of the Bulge, that person's suffering was far less than another who endured all the shelling and maybe lost a limb. so if you're of a mind to honor the fallen, you should also honor the living who took their share of the risk and burden. They are still with us, still carrying their scars outside and in.

Issue Two: I don't copy you on the moral equivalency of all sides, if only in their own minds. Of course I'm glad you make it clear that you're glad the Allies won, but I do not think that a black American is going to honor the Confederate Flag no matter how nobly and bravely men fought for it. As Grant said about the meeting at Appomatox: "I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us."

Another great war movie, with not a trace of blood, that I grew up with was "Mister Roberts" which I think is a great tribute to difficulties of life faced by men in the service who are not asked to face blood and flame, but something that may be even tougher, boredom.

A really good war movie, "Blackhawk Down" has a line in it about how when bullets start flying, you're in there doing it for your buddies, which I think rings true.

Mark Twain had a line about the difference between morally brave men and women, and distinguishes it from the physically brave, "which can be had by the cartload."

So I lose no sleep over dead Germans and dead Japanese of WWII, but am perfectly willing to honor the Germans living and dead if any of the Peacekeeping units in Yugoslavia, and the Japanese who have gone to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:05 AM

Yes, I understand your perspective on that, Risky. I also have a high regard for the living who have made it through, and I have a VERY high regard for those who fought hardest and bravest in any conflict, whether they lived or died.

I assure you that most soldiers in the German and Japanese armies believed that they were defending their country and their idea of freedom...against deceitful and vicious foes. That's what young men usually believe when they're fighting a war. That's what the media and the authorities and their officers all tell them, after all! And they're usually quite young men. The young are more easily taken in by such propaganda, not having had much experience yet.

Lee was not fighting for slavery, he was fighting for Virginia. He was personally opposed to slavery both before and during the Civil War, but he felt that the primary issue was defending his home state against foreign invasion. I believe that was the main concern of a majority of Confederate soldiers...defending the home ground. That's why they fought so damned hard, because their own homes were at their backs. No, I wouldn't expect most black people to admire them, but a lot of blacks supported the Southern war effort at the time (and a lot of others didn't).

Now, as to who I admire...

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa was probably Japan's finest naval fighter pilot. Flying a Zero, he shot down about 100 Allied aircraft, and never even sustained a bullet hit to his airplane. Flying against much more powerful and faster American Corsair fighters from squadrons such as Pappy Boyington's, he shot down 45 of them from June to August 1943 with his slower and more fragile Zero. Meanwhile, most of his young friends were killed in those same desperate battles. Nishizawa became very depressed because so many of his friends had been killed. He volunteered for a kamikaze mission in October '44, having had a presentiment of his own approaching death. That request was refused by his commanders, because he was considered too valuable a pilot to be expendable. A few days later he was killed in an unarmed transport plane which was taking him and some other pilots to pick up new fighter planes.

America's greatest aces in the Pacific, such as Bong, Boyington, or McCampbell shot down around 30-40 planes apiece...

To not honor Nishizawa would be ridiculous. It makes no difference who he fought for. The reason I honor him is simply because I know a lot about him...just like most Americans might know a lot about Davy Crockett or Pappy Boyington.

The only reason not to honor him would be sheer ignorance of what he faced and what he accomplished under the most desperate odds between 1941 and October '44. Brave people worthy of honor are found in all uniforms.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Germans, French, British, Austrians, Russians, Serbians, Belgians and all the rest who fought in World War I would have been far better off if they had talked it over first and not fought at all. Amen to that!!! I could say the same about the other wars that followed.

I do not say that opposing sides are necessarily morally equivalent by any means...only that their rank and file are normally convinced of their own side's moral rightness, that's all. It's a question of selective focus. The Southern soldiers focused on defending their sacred home ground, the Yankees focused on restoring the Union and freeing the slaves. People are highly subjective creatures, and easily convinced of their own side's rectitude and the other side's perfidy.

To see this is to have compassion, and to respect one's enemy on the individual human level, even if you disagree with their national politics.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:21 AM

Good points all around.

Am posting this knowing better, but... It's absolutely bizarre to me to consider the concept of "honor" in any context of mass slaughter.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: GUEST,Risky Business
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM

Thanks, LH, I appreciated your response, because you took it as I meant it. I recall watching a biography of Yamamoto, the Admiral who engineered the attack on Pearl Harbor while apparently advising against it. It was pretty respectful of him as a man.

I think I'd go so far as to say I can respect some of these people. I won't go far enough to honor them if I don't respect their cause. These young men are as you say, but they are quite aware that they are trying to kill other young men.

And I agree with your facts about Lee. He was fighting for Virginia. I think that was 'old' thinking, and a very poor decision. But it was a common one across the South. As the novelist/ would-be historian Shelby Foote observed during the wonderful Burns series on the Civil War (which came out just before Gulf War I and was repeated just before Gulf War II), before the Civil War people said "The Unites States ARE" and after the war people said "The United States IS".

There is a propensity to judge people outside of their place and time, and blame them for things that were part of their environment when they grew up. Then there is the counter-impulse to allow people the defects of their state, and not blame them for anything.

I think the truth, of course, is somewhere between. And I think Band of Brothers is a work of art because it shows us this without preaching at us. Specifically, it shows Americans shooting enemy soldiers who in a more PC production might be properly seen as prisoners. It shows Germans as human beings, too. It shows an American soldier getting drunk and shooting Germans, an English officer, and an American (the American gets saved by a German surgeon). It rises above mere hooray-for-our-side, while taking full advantage of it, an American characteristic.

The above scenes I mentioned are right out of the book, but have language and depictions that are not spelled out in the book. I am curious as to whether this was creative writing, 'fleshing out' characters, or whether the writers of the series went back to original sources (the men) and incorporated additional information into the episodes.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:33 PM

Last Sunday whilst I was in Wellington NZ I attended an ANZAC Day Memorial and a ceremony called 'Beating The Retreat'.

ANZAC commemorates those Australians and Kiwi's who gave there lives in many wars. The original memorial was to mark the memory of the war dead from Gallipoli.

Having lived abroad in Asia for many years I have not been able to attend the Armistice Day memorials in the UK. I was glad and grateful to be able to attend the ANZAC Day ceremony.

As the Last Post sounded it did what it always does to me, my throat thickens and I want to weep for friends who I served with in the Navy and lost their lives in the Falklands.

There were many people all around me who had served in campaigns in many different wars and I could see the sadness written across their faces. They too were remembering friends and comrades whose lives were taken and I felt grateful for their presence around me.

In my case there was no world war when I joined the armed services, I doubt many of us were war mongers. We joined as it seemed that the training we would receive would give us a chance when we left of getting good jobs. None of us ever thought any of us would die.

I have different views now on armed conflict, but I will always remember those who lost their lives and I will always remember the camerady off those whom I served with.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

I've always missed the first couple of episodes of this. It start's over again this evening. I want to see what happened with David Schwimmer.

Subject: RE: BS: Band of Brothers
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

But still, soldiers aren't in a class by themselves. This and other countries were built on the backs of slaves and oppressed people--soldiers are just a particular class of the oppressed, some voluntarily, some less so. Free-thinkers are often oppressed, and brave. We should respect and honor the work and sacrifices of any and everyone doing the best they can in this messed-up place.