BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:18 PM

Actually, she was born in the US and if she has maintained dual citizenship she can vote in US elections.

Democrats Abroad

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: GUEST,Katherine Harris
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Martin Gibson,

Dianavan is from Canada. She has no vote in the American election.

KH

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:17 PM

dianavan

I am going to vote for whoever you don't vote for, wench.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:52 AM

You could also spend some time reflecting on what resources YOU might devote to an enemy who could convince young men and women to strap explosives to themselves and in civilian clothing get on public buses full of civilians and blow them up causing as much distress as possible.

Ending the occupation would be an excellent start. Kerry could encourage this by not giving Israel any more money to help them oppress and terrorize the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: S O P
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:47 AM

di-van:

take a few deep breaths and get a grip...
apparently not everyone running for president has gone to the trouble of getting your permission. You should contact the candidates directly.

In the meantime, get a prescription for a mild calmative.

Or try warm milk

You could also spend some time reflecting on what resources YOU might devote to an enemy who could convince young men and women to strap explosives to themselves and in civilian clothing get on public buses full of civilians and blow them up causing as much distress as possible.

Works for me.


And makes Kerry a more viable candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 10:54 PM

Well, well, well...

Have you heard the latest? Kerry thinks that Israel has the best methods of dealing with terrorists. This will make Martin happy.

What a cutesy, little politician! I also hear he is considering a Republican, running mate.

Hey Martin, who you gonna vote for?

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:50 PM

...now, now dianavan, you were just warned about hurling "epitaphs" at others...

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:43 PM

Matin, now that we know your Bubbie shamed you and was tough on you; do you want to tell us about your mother? Maybe that would help us understand why you're such a misogynist.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

Did she use her own name all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

She must have been, Martin. Mine was loving, forgiving, and most of all, respectful of other people's opinions..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

People who accuse others of not playing nice are usually behind the 8 ball. My bubbie was pretty tough.

Ok, Don. 2 our FOUR.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Two out of HOW MANY!!?????

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:42 AM

But maybe if you listened more to your bubbie, Martin, you'd "play nice" on ALL the threads...another cookie?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM

Sounds like a good refrain line for a song. Something like, "Two outta three ain't real" or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM

Yeah, sorry Don. But 2 out 3 ain't real bad. Keep playing the percentages.

ellenpoly, bubbies say "shame on you" for virtually everything. That's part of being a bubbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Marty, Marty, Marty. And on a couple of other threads you were doing so well!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

yeah yeah...my spell check is on the fritz...but the thought is still clear to those who give a shrit..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: pdq
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

...to quote Ellenpoly: "we can not stop outselves from using the most offensive kind of epitaphs"

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM

And if my bubbie were here, she'd say...Shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:52 AM

Rabbi Blue - well worth getting to know.

"Remember I am not angry" - so all the posts from Martin in various threads that might have been interpreted as high-octave rage and furious invective were just light-hearted banter. That's good - but I think you really had some people taken in there, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM

..what a lot of psychobabble, calm down and have a cup of tea!

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM

if Freud were here he'd say.....

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:27 AM

If Spock were here he'd say, "Fascinating..."

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:46 AM

Do me a favor, Ellenpoly, if you don't like what I write or the way I write it, don't read it. Best rule for you. Maybe not for me.

And your family dinners and debates were not over the Internet. This is neither my family nor is it dinnertime, here.


There is a very strong misconception here that I am angry.

I guess I need to shout this:

I AM NOT ANGRY!!

Plain and simple, there is a lot of bullshit here in the old BS section. I choose to read some of it and you can, also.

McGrath, I never heard of Rabbi Blue. And I am not on the rag, though a few ladies here are flowing quite heavily.

Basically, if you are uncomfortable with the way I express myself, that really is entirely your problem.

Freda, from where did you get in degree in psychoanalysis? I am not at all a victim, a rescuer, or a prosecutor. What does this have to do with anything let alone this thread? That was some of the most self serving bullshit I have read here yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:50 AM

40 DD's AND ACCORDIANS,SIMPLY CANNOT CO-EXIST,IN MY OPINION.
But L.H ....A new career beckons,......In Councilling...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:38 AM

Anger and argument.. Are you a victim, a rescuer or a persecutor? These are three dysfunctional methods for gaining control.

In the drama of the roles of persecutor, rescuer and victim, the real issue at hand is power and control. Of the three roles, the victim is the most powerful. For the victim to react and get revenge, he will have to change roles, in this case, he will have to move into the persecutor role. To get his needs met, he will have to acquire a rescuer. If he were to become aware of someone else acting out the victim role, and he wants to "help him", he will have to go into the rescuer role. A victim acts as though he needs things done for him when he is perfectly capable of doing them himself. A victim never takes responsibility, every problem is someone else's fault. In acting like a victim, the victim avoids responsibility, guilt manipulates another person into doing the thing for them, achieves their goal through another person's nurturing/effort, and can move into persecutor (blaming the resuer) if they don't like the outcome.

A rescuer continually does things for others while disregarding his or her own conscious needs. The rescuer may also be into controlling the victim, by "helping" them with their life, but is gaining a vicarious sense of power out of controlling the victim. They may develop a martyr complex, but will be very unwilling to give up their rescuer role because they're "just trying to help".

A persecutor uses anger directly or indirectly to gain control. He may throw temper tantrums, be sarcastic, abusive, pout for days, or promise to do things and then not do them. The persecutor can be someone who was persecuted as a child, by an authoritarian or controlling parent, or who feels persecuted as a member of some social group. They feel justified in turning around and giving back to others what they feel has been dumped on them in the past. A persecutor never takes responsibility, every problem is someone else's fault. Being the persecutor also leads to becoming a victim. There is no revenge like the revenge of a victim who has become a persecutor. In his revenge, he wants his persecutor to "feel the pain." From this, he says he will get closure. His only closure will be "an eye for an eye." For the rest of his life, he will carry the burden of the pain of hurt and because he has not let go of the experience. If you persecute people with abusive comments, anger, name-calling or making sarcastic comments, eventually other people will not trust you and will leave you.

Functional methods of gaining control include taking responsibility for your own life, giving people the respect to make their own decisions, only offering help or advice if its asked for, treating people with courtesy even if you strongly disagree with their views, arguing with ideas instead of personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:29 AM

As Rabbi Blue always says, "Don't take it so heavy."

"Pure entertainment" doesn't involve losing your rag all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:46 AM

Ok, folks, would everyone calm down and HAVE A COOKIE?

I was born into a reformed Jewish household, and I can never remember while growing up, hearing anyone speak the way Martin Gibson does, in or out of my home, and believe me, my family dinners were full of debates on politics. I'm sorry, but I cringe when I read the way you choose to express both your emotions and your ideas, Martin, because I think you defeat your own purpose in the way you state your case.

If this is a place of debate, then let it remain so. The fact that it seems to dwindle into a shouting match where offensive statements are being thrown as verbal weapons only to hurt, not to enlighten, doesn't get us any further in this discussion.

Again I point out that if even here, in this the mildest of forums, we can not stop outselves from using the most offensive kind of epitaphs in place of thoughtful and reasoned remarks, god help the Middle East, much less the rest of the world.

Come on folks, have a cookie and proceed more calmly. Lots worth discussing here...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:34 AM

Hey, anger is a real emotion. Nothing wrong with feeling angry. Its just the way you express it, Martin. Just because you're angry, doesn't give you the right to verbally abuse others.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

dianavan: I have no control over how shocked you are. What I was referring to was the nice, peaceful exchange that had just taken place between tow people who seemed like enemies a month ago, and have found some middle ground. I happen to like Martin. I don't care who knows that. If you think being Jewish means you always have to say things nicely, I am surprised at you. I do not know the life my friend had, nor do I know the things he has gone through. I am not about to judge him in that manner. He has always been polite to me. So, don't be shocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

I didn't read Miss America. I read Private Parts, which was an autobiography. An interesting story that shows how he became what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Yeah, Martin. Christ, if this forum was the most stimulating thing in my life I'd end it all NOW. :-) It's definitely fun, though, and I have met some great people through it (both in the flesh and not). It's good for a deep discussion now and then too.

I've never listened to Howard Stern on the radio at all, only read his book "Miss America" at this point. It's hilarious in places. (I have to say that Howard's got pretty good looking legs for a man...when he wears stockings, I mean.) His hijacking of the Libertarian Party in New York was an extraordinary satirical stunt. I wish he could hijack the Democrats or Republicans at the national level and run for president, cos it would make for a very entertaining election, but they'd probably get someone to assassinate him first.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:30 PM

That's right Guest. Need a moving truck?

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:25 PM

There goes the neighborhood

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM

McGrath, I assure you for me, it's pure entertainment. If you want to deep think everything here, that's OK with me. If you want useful discussions, look for it. But you just might have to dodge some of the crap that I and others just might throw around. I reserve the right to be and not be serious about anything and nothing.

Little Hawk, you are so right on! Way too many people want and need this place to be the most stimulating thing in their lives. As for Howard Stern, I used to listen to him, but don't that often any more. He is not a hero of mine, but I do have some admiration for him. He is very sharp and I love his political incorrectness. I read his book and thought it was hilarious. I do like that he isn't afraid to offend if he believes what he thinks. I don't know about his emotional probelems, I've never talked to his therapist.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:07 PM

It's about self-expression. A worthy pursuit. It's also about communication, self-knowledge, having fun, and learning not to let your buttons be pushed so easily by other people. At least that's what it's about for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

I think, Martin, you just demonstrated why it's sometimes a better idea to sit on a response for a bit.

Just because an emotion is "honest" doesn't give it any value in itself. (There are people who are quite honestly racist, for example.) Anger under certain circumstances is an appropriate emotion, and honesty about these things means that we should not camouflage it. But that's a very different from just "throwing crap around", which is not a way of conducting a useful discussion, but merely a way of trying to disrupt it.

What makes a discussion useful, it seems to me, is when those taking part end up with a better understanding of the position held by other people; and also where, perhaps, in the light of this better understanding, some people may have modified their own position.

It isn't about changing politics and world situations. But it isn't about "pure entertainment" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:00 PM

It's just a question of different sensibilities. It's an argument about manners. Some people don't like yours, Martin, but you naturally feel fine about the way you express yourself. I'm curious...what do you think about Howard Stern? He offends a lot of people, cos his manners are so...unrestrained. :-) Still, he's a mighty sharp cookie, I think. He's also got some serious emotional problems, but, hell, he knows that. He makes no bones about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:52 PM

Oh yeahm one more thing Mark Cohen. That quote you used of mine to the hair breath Guest. Why should you care how or what I said to this poor excuse of a poster? That Guest wasn't you, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:55 PM

dianavan, this silly forum is hardly a means to peace and justice. For some, like me, it's just pure entertainment. This forum has, I am sure, zero impact on politics and world situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:53 PM

No Mark Cohen, I do not speak for all Jews and neither do you. But as someone who was also raised as a convervative Jew, I know where you are coming from in addressing reformed Jews. The fact is, I believe that many conservative Jews are so on the fence and waffle about way too much. I remember the conservative movement being quite narrow minded when it came to the reformed movement even to the point of ridicule. You are not being anti-semitic, only anti reformed. Do you really appreciate what I posted about the URJ? Do you really agree with their philosophy about who is Jewish or not? Do you really appreciate that gay marriage is recognized? Would your rabbi marry one? Over all, conservative Judiasm has lost the most followers in it's membership over the last 20-25 years. Well, I have the right to not agree with everything, also. If you don't believe that Hamas at this point has to be dealt with the way it is being dealt with you are just inviting more terrorism. You can't really believe in Israel's right to exist if at this point, you do not fight for it. If I am not mistaken that was the point that I made. I will continue to make it.


And dianavan, you really don't know squat, except how to. You have no idea if I give half of my time and money to charity or not. You only see me on this forum, and to me, the Internet is just not that real.

And Mcgrath, since anger is an honest emotion, what's wrong with expressing it when you feel someone is full of crap. I get it all of the time hurled at me. If you are going to dish it out, you are going to have to take it, also. I have no problem with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

I'm surprised at you, brucie. Why do you think name-calling and using derogatory language is a means to a peace and justice?

Thank-you Mark Cohen for telling Martin to "cool it". He has insulted more than one person on this forum. Somebody should tell him that he is a poor example. If I were Jewish, I certainly wouldn't want him speaking for me. Its far easier to learn from a rational and logical discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:24 PM

I think we're all made in the image of God too, but I don't take that to mean that our physical appearance resembles that of the Creator (given that the Creator is not a limited something that HAS a physical appearance). I believe it's a metaphorical statement, and refers to something spiritual, not the physical body.

I think it refers to our abilities of thought, consciousness, awareness, decision-making, freedom of will, imagination, and creativity. We are ourselves creators. We are godlike, albeit on a smaller scale. In those respects we are indeed cast in God's image.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM

It took you 2 hours+ to get it all off of your poor excuse for a chest in three separate posts (Martin Gibson)

For anyone reading a post that particularly annoys them, it is a very very good idea to resist the temptation to dash off a response in the heat of the moment, and that should never be seen as something to sneer at or criticise.

It would be a lot better if some of the other people posting in this thread (for example) followed this rule, instead of wading in with tongue flying, spewing out insults calculated to inflame things generally, and ro undermine discussion. Except I don't think calculation actually enters into that kind of post writing.

A good rule is, the more angry we feel, the more controlled our response needs to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Martin, I've tried to stay out of this, but I think some things need to be said. Please compare these two statements:

"We are committed to a vision of the State of Israel that promotes full civil, human and religious rights for all its inhabitants and that strives for a lasting peace between Israel and its neighbors."

--Statement of Principles for Reform Judaism, Central Conference of American Rabbis (now the Union for Reform Judaism), 1999


"Actualy, hair breath Guest, I really do not support Bush for everything as you so stupidly claim. You obviously are making futile stabs at knowing me, which you, ahem, fucking don't. But I do support his backing of Israel, you fuck faced coward with no name, and I do hope he gives them enough money to completely destroy Hamas.
What do you think, everything the UN has done is wrong? You have shit for brains, oh cowardly Guest.
Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Whatever it takes to rid the middle east of terrorists."

--Martin Gibson, 2004

I am a Jew, Conservative by upbringing and practice, Progressive by inclination and philosophy. I support the State of Israel and its right to exist. However, I think that many of the Israeli government's policies are and were wrong, just as I think many of the US government's policies are and were wrong. I am anti-Sharon, but that does not make me anti-Israel, just as being anti-Bush does not make me anti-American, no matter what Rush Limbaugh says.

Martin, I appreciate your posting the URJ principles, but you do not speak for all Jews, let alone all American Jews, or even all Reform Jews (of which I am not one). I'm sure you can be a pleasant person, and are probably a better guitarist than I am. You and I may even agree on some political or religious points. But your style is offensive, and I wish you would calm down and stop acting like you are the only one who knows anything and anybody who disagrees with you is a moron. It's almost enough to make me into an anti-semite. (And if you take this as a "Jewish anti-semitic remark", then you're not as smart as I thought you were.)

Shalom,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:06 PM

I think it's very obvious he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM

We believe that all human beings are created in the image of God, and that we are God's partners in improving the world. Tikkun olam — repairing the world — is a hallmark of Reform Judaism as we strive to bring peace, freedom, and justice to all people.

Very nice words. Too bad that you don't seem to be practicing, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

That looks like a very good religion, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

Carol C.

American Reformed Judiasm is by far the largest group of in this country. It encompasses as much as 65-70% of the nations Jews. It is not fragmented in the slightest. Virtually all Reformed Jewish Congregations belong to the Union for Reformed Judiasm. For you and everyone else, here is the URJ's description:

Throughout history, Jews have remained firmly rooted in Jewish tradition, even as we learned much from our encounters with other cultures. Nevertheless, since its earliest days, Reform Judaism has asserted that a Judaism frozen in time is an heirloom, not a living fountain. The great contribution of Reform Judaism is that it has enabled the Jewish people to introduce innovation while preserving tradition, to embrace diversity while asserting commonality, to affirm beliefs without rejecting those who doubt, and to bring faith to sacred texts without sacrificing critical scholarship.

Reform Judaism affirms the central tenets of Judaism - God, Torah and Israel - even as it acknowledges the diversity of Reform Jewish beliefs and practices. We believe that all human beings are created in the image of God, and that we are God's partners in improving the world. Tikkun olam — repairing the world — is a hallmark of Reform Judaism as we strive to bring peace, freedom, and justice to all people.

Reform Jews accept the Torah as the foundation of Jewish life containing God's ongoing revelation to our people and the record of our people's ongoing relationship with God. We see the Torah as God inspired, a living document that enables us to confront the timeless and timely challenges of our everyday lives.

In addition to our belief that Judaism must change and adapt to the needs of the day to survive and our firm commitment to Tikkun Olam, the following principles distinguish Reform Jews from other streams of Judaism in North America.

Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978 the Reform Movement has been reaching out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, so long as the child is raised as a Jew.


Reform Jews are committed to the absolute equality of women in all areas of Jewish life. We were the first movement to ordain women rabbis, invest women cantors, and elect women presidents of our synagogues.


Reform Jews are also committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue life as well as society at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:42 PM

Nicely said, LH.