Bob Shane is done after 47 years (2004)

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

Ron, Bob Shane does own the name. In the late '60s/early '70s, he didn't and did tour and did some recordings as The New Kingston Trio because someone else did own the name. When he got the rights, the "New" was dropped.

I also am amazed by the response here. The Kingston Trio for me were a major influence for me right down to Nick Reynold's harmony singing which I still can emulate to this day. I knew they were entertainers for sure, but I also saw them as artists. There was a major attempt at art and creativity in the later years, fueled by John Stewart's songwriting. What emerged later was predictable entertainment imitating art. I could not accept this until Nick Reynolds emerged for the dozen or so years from 1988 until his second and final retirement in 1999. There was more integrity then because two thirds of the group were at least imitating the art that they themselves created.

There is nothing wrong with being a nostalgia group. There is nothing wrong with making money at it. However, musical groups and artists who make recordings do put a personal stamp on their output. Comparing this to the Barnum & Bailey Circus, where any clown will do, is far from the same as hearing and identifying a voice and a personality like Bob Shane sing Scotch & Soda. Would you accept four different guys calling themselves the Beetles, also?

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

I always marvel at people who complain about the Kingston Trio's lack of "folk" credentials and then in the same breath talk about how they loved groups like the Weavers or New Lost City Ramblers or other folk revival artists.   All of these groups "borrowed" songs that they learned from other sources.   The only knock you could make on the Kingston Trio were that they never hid the fact that they had no "authenticity" and freely admitted to being entertainers.   They found a way to make money with the music, which apparently is another sin. You would think that they somehow managed to burn or hide all the other sources. They also inspired countless others to become "fans" of folk music. Imagine that - actually breaking up the country club atmosphere!!   They even had the nerve to copyright some of the traditional songs. Oh, sorry, I forgot that it was the Weavers who did that before the Kingston Trio.

It is kind of ironic when you think about it - the only artists who can really be considered "authentic" are the singer-songwriters who actually write about their own experiences.

We've really drifted from Martin's original post, and I am as guilty as anyone for that. Again, I feel that the Kingston Trio should carry on. The fact that the group has been performing nearly non-stop for 47 years (with the exception of a sabbatical during the late 60's, early 70's), the group has an established lineup and sound. It is not like a group of new artists suddently adopting the name and going on the road.   Haworth & Groves have a right to add Zorn to the group and carry on. I am not sure who actually owns the name, but I am guessing it is Bob Shane. He certainly has the right to see the legacy carried on.

I'm not a huge Kingston Trio fan either. I do respect their place in history and I do think that their performances are fun.   Nothing beats a healthy well cooked meal, but every now and then a slice of pizza hits the spot.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Flash Company
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:21 AM

I saw the trio many years ago in Manchester (England) My recolection is of three guys who appeared to be enjoying themselves, a lot of in jokes, and entertaining music.
I never really looked on them as pure 'folk', and I think 'A Ballad of the Shape of Things' was the only song of their's that I ever used. Still enjoyed them though, and wish Bob a speedy recovery.

FC

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:05 AM

Jimmyt ... I agree with you that there are many kind words being thoughtfully expressed on this thread. Very refreshing! My earlier comments regarding the Kingston Trio becoming on almost overnight "standard" of some kind, also applied to the "Joan Baez" phenomina. However in the case of Joan, she established her music credentials early on. And as someone said, the Kingston Trio didn't represent themselves as any kind of "folk song experts." They saw themselves for what they were, entertainers. And I would add, they were (are) damned good at it.

I'm enjoying the comments to this thread. Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:46 AM

To quote a song I heard on a Johnny McEvoy record, "You play all the notes and sing all the words, but you never quite learned the song." Why not do the thing that was done back in the '60's---rename the group---The NEW Christy Minstrels comes to mind, as an example. Then the attitude, enthusiasm, and purpose can be maintained without the counterfit aspects becoming a problem. In fact, it becomes a kind of tribute.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:33 AM

In all truth, this thread has probably the kindest words for the Kingston Trio that I have ever read here. I am quite surprised that this many people has this much nice to say about the trio.

I can understand Deckman's situation in that there was lots of folk music being performed before the Kingston Trio broke on the scene. It would have been annoying to have the audience suddenly swing to a different listening style. Bob, someone else once said here that an audience member told him he wasn't performing Tom Dooley correctly because that wasn't how the Kingston Trio did it. (dispite the fact that he had been performing the song for several years before their recording) I guess the Kingston Trio is kind of like Walmart, slick, commercial, and generally screwing up the small businesses.

As Jerry knows, I have a warm place in my heart for the Kingston Trio, as my group performs predominately Kingston Trio genre music to great audiences who, like us, are probably not as deep in folk music as this forum.

I can see Martin's point, there should be some acknowledgement of the makeup of the group, but I imagine the audience will be wowed by the performance one way or another. I guess the listening audience is influenced by the original recordings of the performers, and are pretty forgiving in live performance. Nostalgia is probably a pair of earmuffs for the average audience member, right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:22 AM

That's the difference between an institution and an individual name. Noone will ever be able to play as Pete or Bob; but a collective noun, like a corporation, need never die. You wouldn't whine because the Barnum and Bailey Circus hired new clowns, wouldja?

A

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:03 AM

Hey, Jimmy:

Funny thing is, I'd rather hear your group doing Kingston Trio songs than I would a group of people who were never really a part of the Kingston Trio using the brand name. Then, I'd just find enjoyment in your enthusiasm and accept the music for what it was. I know that your group is not pretending to be the Kingston Trio, or the Highwaymen, or the Weavers. You're just singing the old pop versions of folk songs because you enjoy doing it.

I can dig enjoyment.

(I opened for the Highwaymen at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village in the early 60's, by the way.) It wasn't the most brilliant booking decision, as I was trying to sound like a scratchy, tinny old 78 rpm recordning of some old toothless geezer sitting on the back porch of a tumble down shack in the Southern Appalachians. As determinedly authentic as I could fake.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM

Jerry I just woke up to this thread and I am so confused about axheads and candles I need to get some coffee before I process it! grin

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

If you have a favourite knife, and you break the blade, and replace it, and then a few years later you break the handle, and replace that - is it the same knife at the end of it all?

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:36 AM

Is creativity interchangeable? Can anyone sing the leads on the Platters songs like Tony Williams? Or replace Buddy Holly in the Crickets? Or Sam Cooke with the Soul Stirrers? Of course someone CAN sing the leads and get the notes and words right, but how much is lost? Maybe with the Kingston Trio no one was such a distinctive creative force that they can still approximate the original sound.
People may be able to enjoy a group calling themselves the Kingston Trio just for the memories, or just because the group sings with enthusiasm.

So, why not have a touring Weavers group? We could all sing along on Goodnight, Irene. Would it be the same? I don't think so.

So, where is Doctor Jimmy on this one?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:53 AM

Obviously I'm looking at this from a different angle to Americans who were around for the folk revival. I don't know so much about the history of the band, but I do know that I would not hesitate to go and see any act which used the talents of Bill Zorn. He's a fine singer and banjo player, a very funny man and a nice bloke as well. I'd expect a good evening's entertainment.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 02:05 AM

Ron ... Talk about a time lapse! I not only remember that particular Time magazine with Joan on the cover, but as I read the words you quoted, I remembered them exactly! Well said and well done, on your part.

I wish to make a gentle shift on this thread. To me, speaking ONLY for myself, the Kingston Trio represent something that killed something with their birth. With their birth, and impact, on the American populiar music scene, we suddenly lost what was almost virgin in American folk music.

We lost the innocence of our own music. Before the trio reved up our popular music vibes, I could find great pleasure in the occasional singer enjoying "Barbary Allen." I could loose myself in the feldging banjo player stumbling through "Soldiers Joy." (I still do, of course).

But when the phenomona of the trio really impacted America, it seemed that it became ... "Kingston Trio" or nothing. As a fledgling performer myself, I couldn't compete, and I didn't want to. What I wanted to do was to honestly present my songs (our songs) honestly.

I mean these words in no way to disscredit any of their achievements. They have done much and have worked for and deserve all their rewards. But I still remember the absolute "sillyness" that some of us went through, back in the earlier years, trying to "entertain" folks when the only measurement of entertainment was the Kingston Trio.

Am I making any sense here? CHEERS Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:20 AM

Speaking of Washington's old ax that's had two new blades and five new handles, how about the Ink Spots?

All of the big bands had members coming & going; when do they quit being the original? What about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Which one's the real one?

When I was nine or ten I found a little book on Buddhism. An E. Haldeman-Julius Little Blue Book, 5¢. It suggested you think on a candle flame. Is the flame now the same flame you lit two minutes ago? What if you'd blown it out after a minute and then lit it again? What if you light another candle from it? Or several?

So I've been thinking on it for a long time now, off & on. It's about Identity, and what's the difference between a noun and a verb and all like that there.

Seems to me like whether a group is The Original or not is a question of scholarship, or maybe sentiment. The musical question is whether they're worth listening to or not.

clint

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:06 AM

"The Kingston Trio were to be elected to say The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for example, the three imposters get to go up and claim the award, right?"

The question doesn't apply, but I get your point. I could be wrong, but I believe all members of a group that is inducted share in the honor. I believe all of the ex-Supremes shared in the honor, except for the diva who did not show up.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are too many "tribute" bands who rip off the name, but you are not doing a service to those groups that do try to respect the original sound and tradition. I believe the Kingston Trio did that. They may not have the chops that they once did, but I think they have a right to do so. People do not have to attend a concert or purchase a CD of a group they do not like or care for.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 AM

This my Great Grandfather's axe. My Grandfather put on a new handle and my Dad replaced the head after it broke but it is still my Great Grandfather's Axe.

And George Grove is considerable more than "somewhat talented".

Would they still be The Kingston Trio if Nick Reynolds and John Stewart joined George Grove on Stage? Or something else? There was still "The Sons of the Pioneers" long after Roy Rogers, Bob Nolan, Tim Spencer, and Hugh and Karl Farr left the group.

I think TKT is as much a style and a franchise as it is a singular unit of musicians. And I won't debate the right or wrong of this type of entertainment combination. And whether or not the name should be changed to reflect the passing of the Old Guard is enyirely up to the principals involved. Given the chance I'd go hear this group with what ever name they used.

Don

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:41 AM

So, if the Kingston Trio were to be elected to say The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for example, the three imposters get to go up and claim the award, right?

There are way too many "brand name" groups out there riding the wave of artists who came before them. It becomes nothing more than a tribute group who gets to legally call themselves a musical brand name.

And for the record, if I am not mistaken, Dave Guard originally left in 1961 because of creative differences. So did Stewart and Reynolds in 1967. Bob Shane has done a fine job of entertaining ever since. But artistically and creatively, he came to a standstill 37 years ago.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

You make a good point about the disclaimer Martin. At the very least, they should mention the names of the performers in the group in all ads.

I am probably in the minority on this, but I would hope that if Bob can't come out of "retirement" to re-join the Kingston Trio, the Trio continue on. As Jerry Rasmussen pointed out, some of the vocal groups can carry on and uphold the original sound with respect. Guy Lombardo's Royal Canadians still tour, as does the Glenn Miller Orchestra. I would hope that audiences for those big bands are going to the concerts to see the namesakes, but they are trying to recapture a feeling or perhaps to experience it for the first time. The same can be true with the Kingston Trio. I would hope that they don't try to pull the wool over anyones eyes. I doubt they would do that.

A group can be more than an individual name. Although, I am reminded of the story about the guy that owned the ax that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree.   The blade fell off about 50 years ago and they had to replace it with a new one. About 10 years ago the handle broke off and they put on a new one. Still, it is the ax the George used!!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:34 PM

Ron, thanks, very much, for posting the quote from the old article. That's one of the very best I've ever read.

I, too, send well wishes to Shane.

kat

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:07 PM

Now I didn't mean to come on too harsh on this. I also wish Shane a full recovery and hope he can come back. I also credit The Kingston Trio for influencing me. I virtually learned to play guitar by playing along with their records and an early group I was in covered their songs to a tee.

However, I have a major problem with groups capitalizing on a name. I followed the trio even when Dave Guard left and maybe even enjoyed it more when John Stewart replaced him. In 1967, Shane, Reynolds, and Stewart disbanded and to me that was the end.

I disagree Ron. True, George Grove has been there many years and is a somewhat talented musician and entertainer, but he wasn't involved in any of the 20 odd albums recorded during the Shane,Reynolds, Guard/Stewart creative days. Bob Haworth has been a journeyman folk era performer who has been put in a striped shirt only when there has been a death (Roger Gamble) or a retirement (Reynolds for the 2nd time).

True, there are bookings to honor. But a sign on the door should have a disclaimer. Shane's precense and continuity lended at least 33 1/3% credibility. With Shane out, fans are getting a total reproduction and illusion. They are not getting their money's worth and I think this crowd is overall oblivious. I've been to some of these shows in recent years also.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

I have mixed emotions about this, as I imagine most of us do. I too owe a lot to being introduced to a lot of folk songs by the Kingston Trio, although I was already a great fan of Lonnie Donegan and Bob Gibson before I heard much by the trio. I wish Bob Shane God speed in recovering his health, whether he ever performs with the trio or not.

About ten years ago, I was asked to recommend an opening act for the Kingston Trio and suggested Sally Rogers and Howie Bursen (who I thought did a fine job, to a polite response.) But, everyone was waiting to hear the songs they listened to when they were in college, and they lapped up the Kingston Trio, despite their being sadly sloppy in their performance. In a way, it didn't make a difference.

A few years ago, I had a good friend who was still in his teens, who became one of The Coasters. He was in one of several groups all licensed as The Coasters, and toured nationally. I don't even think he was born when The Coasters were popular, and he was a white kid from an afluent family in Connecticut. Not particularly "rootsy."

Several years ago, I went to hear another favorite group of mine... the Four Freshmen. Talk about being held back... No one in the group was from the original Four Freshmen, but they were singing the same arrangements, and were under tight control by one of the original Freshmen and seemed to respect their heritage. They were also multi-talented musicians and had arranged more recent songs in the classic Four Freshmen harmony.

I guess all I'm saying is that whenever you try to relive a part of your past musical life, you take your chances.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:49 PM

Deckman, last November I had the pleasure - no, honor - of introducing being the MC for a concert that they gave here in NJ.   Bob Shane said something that I found very interesting. He said that the Kingston Trio never claimed to be "folk" musicians, they were entertainers. They are, good ones too.

This conversation reminds me of an article that I found in an old copy of Time Magazine. It was dated November 22, 1962 and it was an issue that featured Joan Baez on the cover.   The article was about the folk revival that was going on. The closing paragraph stated:

"Folk singing may be a fad just now, but it will never roll off like the Hula Hoop. As its long history demonstrates, it has staying power. It has something that people who are constantly bathed in canned entertainment can do for themselves. At its best, it unpretentiously calls up a sense of history. It shines with language in which short words and images go long distances, upstream all the way against main currents of polished grammar. And, unpontifically, it dusts off the sturdier and simpler values of American life - some of which are against the law:
You just lay ther by the juniper,
While the moon is bright,
Watch them jugs a-filling
In the pale moonlight."

It holds true today. Those words, written 42 years ago, probably are the best I've ever heard of defining "folk music".

The article itself describes the "scene" and many of the players of the day.   The Kingston Trio is mentioned as well as how purists labeled them as "Impures or Popularizers". But the article says "...carping aside, the Kingstons are accomplished entertainers, and many of their critics, Johnny-come-latelies to purity, forget that they probably woudl never have heard of folk music if they had not been first attracted by a heel-stomping ditty rendered by the Kingston Trio".

Well put.   

Take care of yourself Bob!

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:36 PM

Oh, no! I grew up with them. My parents were big fans when the whole thing started.

I saw them on that concert thing that PBS showed last year and thought they still sounded pretty damned good, original members or not. They were probably the best act in the lineup. They blew the Highwaymen out of the water, at any rate.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM

You know Ron, you are absolutly correct. If it had not been for the Kingston Trio, the popularity of folk music, as we in America know it today, would have lost many years. I'm amazed that I said that, as I was already singing in coffee houses and college concerts BEFORE anyone heard of the trio. And I, early on, got sick and tired of people asked me if I learned a particuliar song from the trio, or if I would sing "Tom Dooley." Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:24 PM

Here is a note that Bob Shane posted on Kingston Krossroads

Dear Fans & Friends,
On March 21st I suffered a heart attack and went to the Mayo Hospital in Phoenix for a 5 day stay. An angiogram showed that there is no artery blockage and no significant damage to my heart, so no surgery-which is good. However, I was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure which means that my heart was operating below normal and not pumping the fluid out of my lungs. I also had pneumonia, or at the very least, a respiratory infection, which complicated everything. The Mayo was successful in getting me out of heart failure & getting the fluid off my lungs. They also put me on heart meds for heart strength and sent me home. However, I've also been put on oxygen 24/7 indefinitely. My current plans are to pay attention to the doctors (who have said retirement for now-no guarantees) and try to work myself back to working condition. In the meantime, Bill Zorn , who was one of the KT from 1972-1976, has stepped in for me, joining Bob Haworth and George Grove. They are doing fantastic Kingston Trio shows with standing ovations and many compliments. And they do have my blessing. I won't be able to respond to all your emails but I do appreciate all thoughts and prayers from all of you. You have been loyal to me and the Kingston Trio for 47 years and I thank you all for your continuing support. And also, so you know, I am feeling really good-better than I have felt in along time-and the doctors are very pleased with my progress. They are of the opinion that my heart volume is already back up. So, for now I'm going to take it easy and enjoy my (hopefully temporary) retirement.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

I tend to agree with most of your post Martin, however Bob Haworth first joined the group in 1985, left after three years, and returned in 1999 when Nick Reynolds retired. George Grove has been with the group since 1976. That is longer service than the orignal trio put in (4 years - Dave Guard left in 1961 which was the first of numerous lineup changes.) If the public is "duped", they have been duped sinced 1961. I don't think most people expect the original three members when they see the group.

Yes, you are right, none of the original Trio remains with Shane out of the lineup, but the sound and spirit is what ultimately draws the fans.   Frankly, I saw them last year (with Shane) and I felt that they did not have the same energy that the original trio had, but it was an enjoyable evening by a group of entertainers.

The other "fact" of life, the Kingston Trio has bookings in place that they need to honor.

I also checked a posting from Bob Shane on a fan website, and he has said that he hopes to return to the lineup. We shall see.

I wish him a quick and speedy recovery. The Kingston Trio has taken their lumps over the years, and I do feel that their contribution to ENTERTAINMENT AND FOLK MUSIC is the reason why websites like Mudcat exist.   If it weren't for the commercial interest that developed, we may not have had a folk revival.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Janie
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:05 PM

The Kingston Trio was my introduction to folk music, and I have heard many others here say the same. They had a lot of fun, and they were a lot of fun to listen to. Prayers and hopes for a speedy recovery to Bab Shane and his family and friends.

Janie

Subject: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

From the for what it's worth department, Bob Shane, the last of the original members of the Kingston Trio, and the only one left of the originals who has been performing with some version of the Kingston Trio for 47 straight years has had at age 70 a heart attack and has been forced into retirement. He is expected to recover but is on oxygen 24/7. Former Limelighter Bill Zoern is taking his place.

This leaves this "brand name" group without any original members, who are taking bows at concerts at $40 a ticket for the hits others have made.

Unbelievable how the public is so easily duped.