BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:51 PM

This war is not of our choosing but theirs! Never ever ever forget that no matter who does what to who. BTW this so-called humiliation of a few detainess - if it was really that - is nothing compared to the brutal calculated and unfeeling slaughter of thousands of Americans on 9-11!

We need to focus on the fact that Al Qaida is still out there planning and ready for yet more evil and they have no qualms at all about doing their thing.

Be vigilant!

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:44 PM

I am disgusted by pictures of Western soldiers and Contractors being there in the first place, Samoth.

Where is your outrage over that, or is it only the Iraqis who you think are evil

Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Samoth
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:41 PM

I am disgusted by the pictures of Western soliders and Contractors being mutilated and murdered in the streets. Where is your outrage over that, or is it only Americans who you think are evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:40 PM

"Soldiers on all sides of conflict have engaged in criminal behaviour"
Indeed you are right, brucie. But this war was instigated on illegalities, or have you forgotten this?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:50 PM

GUEST thanks for posting the photos. I had not seen them all. I am as disgusted by them as any feeling human being should be. I did not read anywhere in any of your threads that you think all Americans are evil OR that all military are evil.

I think the remarks made to you are unfounded and uncalled for. You are presenting your point of view without venom, but it is being met with venom. People have selective eyesight at times.

Don't give up though. Some of us find your remarks very interesting, and echo your sentiments. We should support your points of view maybe, but I for one can't be bothered doing battle with the war horses on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:30 AM

GUEST: You have no idea about ethics. This shit is a game to you. You don't even have the ethical responsibility to sign your name. I told you to fuck off. Excuse me, such was not my place to give you an order. So allow me to ask instead: Would you please fuck off? Thank you, so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:59 AM

The war is wrong. Men and women who commit such acts are evil. To say those things doesn't come remotely close to saying "all military people are evil" or "Americans are evil" but that doesn't matter, because people read things the way they want to read them.

One way that people distort another person's words to make them fit their worldview, is by adding words like "all" or "none" to twist the meanings, and make things they find ambiguous and unsettling, appear black and white. These things just aren't that simple. Generalizations are sometimes useful, sometimes ridiculous.

Most people want the world to appear in black and white, which is why when people see photographic evidence of something like the Rodney King beating by police, or Iraqi prisoners being tortured by our "heroic" American troops in the same prison where Saddam Hussein's hatchetmen committed horrendous atrocities--that shakes up people's preconceived notions of the most powerful authority figures in our society whom we wish to believe are benevolent, ethical, responsible people.

When we see that the hero myth is so ambiguous, we get upset. We have difficulty accepting the information to be true, even when we are presented with it again and again.

Many photographs do lie, or have been manipulated for effect. Military propaganda in recent years has been relenting in their attempts to heroicize what the troops are doing in our illegal wars in our name.   So when the heroic warrior myth disintegrates before our eyes and turns into a despicable, evil monster, people will deny this really happened, they will try and make it go away with dismissive remarks like "it isn't so bad" or "it isn't as bad as what Saddam Hussein did". And because our guys got caught, these problems will exacerbate anti-Arab prejudices as well, because some will blame the victims.

Does a man who throws a rock deserve to shot and killed? Apparently, there are a few people here who think the answer to that question is yes. But it does beg the question: so why is that prisoner's death been ruled a homicide?

All I can say is, I'm glad we don't have to rely on the ethics of the people in this thread to decide serious issues like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Samoth
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:29 AM

--It's a shame that our soldiers would engage in such acts. All those responsible should be punished. It does not however negate the justness of this war. Whatever has happend, it pales in comparrison to what was happening in Iraq just days and weeks before we arrived. Human shreaders have been found for god's sake. Where are the pictures of the mass graves. the pictures of the hundreds of thousands of innocents that he murdered, raped, and "abused".
--Yes our soldiers should be punished. No it doesn't mean the Americans are evil. It doesn't mean the war is wrong. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that we shoud turn our backs on our fighting men and women over seas.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:46 AM

Guest - a few things bother me about this thread

1. The photos are disgusting but I thought everyone had already seen them and thought enough is enough!

2. Photos are not evidence - especially in our digital world.

3. I believe that this actually happened but then again, it could all be propaganda.

4. I have already heard your rant about the evil military. Although I agree with some of it, I do not believe that the individuals who serve are all evil.

5. Anyone who has to keep their own thread alive should consider that maybe nobody is interested. Its sort of like talking to yourself.

What is your point anyway? Go find Sharangi-la. Wait a minute. Isn't that somewhere in Kashmir? There are other kinds of evil there.

What I'm trying to say is this - On earth there is no heaven but what you might be able to find in your own precious life. I doubt if I will see world peace in my lifetime but it is a very noble ideal. Keep dreaming but do not continue to rant against those that are serving in the military. We've already heard it. I think they should all desert or mutiny or something. Whoever heard of taking orders from a privately contracted interrogator? Sounds like the chain of command is pretty vague, at best. Unless, of course, you want to hold the Commander in Chief responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:01 PM

It's like a guest echo chamber in here.

These photos are disturbing. Not all of them have been on the networks I watch, but unfortunately, when the network news folks interview members of the military or administration they can't resist repeating the slide-show of a select few of these over the conversation. They need to be available, I just wish the News/Entertainment departments had some sense of proportion.

I dread the effect on the rest of the world that Bush's two ten-minute interviews will cause. The pud can't speak several sentences in a row without stammering, and can't keep a reasonable facial expression when speaking to American audiences, so think of the confusion and obfuscation that Arab-language audiences are going to see. He should let someone else do the talking--no one is going to believe a word he says, especially with his dim delivery.

Guest, this stuff does need to be available, but you're going way over the top with the accusation that all military are criminals. Is this our old friend/foe Dreaded Guest from down near Austin somewhere? Have you resurfaced for this occasion?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:54 PM

GUEST: Is nudity the only thing that bothers you? For God's sake.

However, it is historically clear that brutality is something that happens in war. It has ever been thus. Brutality is not the fault of just invading armies or soldiers. Even armies that have lost resort to it. The soldiers responsible will be called to account. As soon as possible would be good.

You seem to think Americans have sole ownership of brutality and inhumanity in war. Not true. But you don't seem to have much commerce with anything beyond your very narrow view. Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,NOT GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:22 PM

I agree that the treatment of the prisoners was wrong and those that are responsible need to be punished. I disagree with the partisan tone that GUEST takes. And by the way, that is not the nature of war now- it has always been the nature of war. Are you so naive that you are surprised that people who fight wars become immune to what seems to them as inconsequential? Are you so stupid as not to recognize that Congress will divide not on lines of morality but party? It does not matter which party is in power, the Outs will fight the Ins, regardless of the issue.

I'm not sure what lessons GUEST believes we learned from "...Rwanda, the Nazis, Bosnia, and all the other genocides..."- care to explain that one? I'ma little puzzled as to what point you are making.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:10 PM

Well that's fine then, Guest 1:41 PM.

The nudity also offends the international community, and is designated as torture in the Geneva Convention for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:41 PM

It was not the actual violence that offended me. It was pictures of those nude people. That should not be allowed on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Guest 11:53 AM, for pointing out that the problem ISN'T a few bad apples. The problem is the culture of violence and militarism, which only is ever able to hold criminality and sadism in check. If the world has learned nothing else from Rwanda, the Nazis, Bosnia, and all the other genocides and wars against civilians in the last century, it should certainly be that.

The pro-militarism Vietnam vets don't want to talk about who the true victims of war are, and whom, if they actually saw combat, they themselves killed in Vietnam. Civilians. Innocent civilians. Not because they were any more or less evil than the soldiers killing civilians in Iraq today. That is simply the nature of war nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:04 PM

GUEST, you're really going too far, even for an Ashcroftian.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:53 AM

All soldiers everywhere are engaged in criminal behavior because of their profession. The veterans of vietnam military on Mudcat have been tarred with the brush of evil and cannot erase it. I want everyone to know how their so called heroes really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:40 AM

Soldiers on all sides of conflict have engaged in criminal behaviour. That doesn't excuse the behaviour. However, one cannot posit from that that ALL soldiers everywhere engage in criminal/sadistic behaviour. That has been the unwritten postulate of this GUEST.

The people who are engaging in torture deserve a court martial. I expect they will be. I hope they are. And they will deserve it. I hope too that the person(s) who issued the OK to do that shit face the same charges.

It's too bad that it takes twenty-seven trolling posts from this GUEST to ruin the reputation of his one good one.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:21 AM

I find it amazing that the photos should stir up such hatred against the person who is exposing this scandal.
Do you wish that this should be hidden and buried away with all of other atrocities commited by uniformed thugs?.
Well done guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:07 AM

And of course, when prisoners are murdered by interrogators, that isn't torture. It is just "abuse".

Apparently, the US media is now going along with the conspiracy to avoid the 'T' word.

Yes, this is EXACTLY why the US refuses to be held accountable to the World Court. I hope a movement starts to hold war crimes tribunals, and that our military and government is convicted in abstentia.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:05 AM

The news outlets are now reporting that the Shrub will address the issue with two Arab networks. From the headline article in the NY Times:

Bush to Address Prison Abuse in Interviews With 2 Arab Networks
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: May 5, 2004

WASHINGTON -- As President Bush planned interviews with Arab television to underscore his revulsion at photographs of U.S. soldiers gloating over naked Iraqi prisoners, a top Pentagon official said Wednesday he expected investigations of abuse to widen.

Bush's appearance on Arab television was set for the day after the Army disclosed that it is conducting criminal investigations of 10 prisoner deaths in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus another 10 abuse cases.

In addition, the deaths of two Iraqi prisoners already have been ruled homicides. In one case, a soldier was court-martialed, reduced in rank and discharged from the Army. In the other homicide, a CIA contract interrogator's conduct has been referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution.

McClellan said two 10-minute interviews with Bush were scheduled for Wednesday.

In an interview with Ohio reporters during a campaign swing through the state Tuesday, Bush sidestepped an opportunity to apologize for the abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:59 AM

"following orders"...now where have we heard that before?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Fair enough, GUEST. This is fair stuff and topical. I guess I was responding to the fact that you started the thread and then only you kept bringing it up. Seems to indicate a need for something, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:21 AM

I think another problem is ready to surface about this too ard mhaca, which is the fact that "independent contractors" along with CIA and military intelligence personnel have also been fingered in the now 6 (according to Secretary Rumsfeld) investigations the Dept of Defense has underway into the allegations.

So it appears this wasn't isolated, or being done without the knowledge of superiors. The brigadier general who had the command for all the prisons in Iraq at the time the alleged torture took place (she is now stationed stateside), has said that Army military intelligence, CIA, and the independent contractors were the personnel running the show there, and NOT the military police under her command. Her story is that the MPs under her command that were in the unit, some of whom have now been reprimanded, others charged, were following orders from CIA, Army military intelligence officers, and the independent contractors.

She (the general) also said the CIA/military intelligence people did their best to prevent the Red Cross from entering their cell block and interviewing the prisoners, which is also a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

The Defense Dept, the White House, etc are only using the word "abuse" and will not use the word "torture" for the obvious reasons. They are also claiming this is a few bad apples who are now being dealt with, the system works, everything is JUST FINE, thank you very much.

But that isn't what many members of Congress are saying. What they are saying is, we will convene our investigations. This will be playing itself out for quite awhile, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:17 AM

Fuck off, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:23 AM

Today the US commander of Iraq`s prison system apologised for the abuse of detainees by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.
If he and his fellow officers had been more alert and doing their duty this wouldn`t have happened, then again they may have been very alert and turned a blind eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:45 AM

The saddest thing about them is the smiles.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:15 AM

These are the photos shown on the US program 60 Minutes, ard mhaca. The photos that ARE being shown around the world, and that have triggered investigations now by th US Congress.

To suggest that anyone who cares about this issue is just engaging in "manipulative crap" is way beyond the pale of reasonableness. This is a widening scandal here in the US, the Bush administration is being challenged for covering it up...and as Ted Kennedy said as he walked out of the closed door briefing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, we have only seen the tip of the iceberg on this.

But as you point out, some will always attack the messenger, as a way to try and discredit/deflect/deny the message.

You are also absolutely correct to say all armies of occupation engage in these practices, and the US military is no different, despite what the former US military Mudcat members say. Of course Vietnam vets here want to deny that there is an in-built component of evil in the culture of military. Because if they don't deny it, they would have to admit to themselves and those whose respect they want to keep, that it is the ability to dance with evil that attracted them to the military to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:49 AM

I am not a Guest and I finD these photos disgusting, are these photos all fakes?, if not the world should see them.
I keep pointing out ALL ARMIES OF OCCUPATION ARE NO DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:56 AM

There is nothing manipulative about keeping the thread going as long as the other thread is going. I do think the link should be put in at the top of the other thread for posterity sake, so that if someone opened that thread down the line, they could find a link to a website that published all the photos.

These photos haven't been that easy to find online in one place. I posted the link as a public service.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:20 AM

Take a hint, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 May 04 - 11:33 PM

Think maybe nobody cares for manipulative crap?

Subject: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:36 PM

I finally found a website that has all the photographs shown on 60 Minutes II last week. They can be viewed here, though they take some to load (though not as long for me as the other thread on the subject here):

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/