BS: Another American Hero?

Subject: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:13 PM

Does anyone else smell something?

I think the recent news of the "escaped" prisoner was just a little too slick. Especially because it came on the heels of the recent photographs of abused, Iraqi prisoners.

Where were the guards? Why was he alone in that tidy little grass hut? How did he know the convoy was American? Did he really run a 1/2 mile shouting, "I am an American?"

I am also questioning the photographs of the Iraqi prisoners. Could it all be propaganda? Why, you say, would the photographs make Bush look good? Because when these people are demoted or convicted, it will appear that Bush does not condone this type of activity and that he is in control. He will then carry on with the support of the public. Who knows what will happen to the people involved? My guess is lots of money and a sweet little hideaway. Then again, they might just be sacrificial lambs.

The American who escaped the Iraqis will probably have lots of stories to tell and a heroes welcome - even though he was a contract worker. If you put the two stories together back to back, its just too much of a coincidence. Actually, you can come up with your own conspiracy theory, there are several scenarios to choose from.

We are being manipulated again.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:18 PM

Yeah, it does look a little fishy. They just left him alone, unrestrained, in a hut with a flimsy door? Who knows...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:52 PM

Sounds rather more as if a prisoner release had been arranged, but that an escape sounded better, especially at this time.

Rather like Jessica Lynch - it was presented as a dramatic military rescue, but in fact it just didn''t happen that way - as this account in an English paper revealed: "Her Iraqi guards had long fled, she was being well cared for - and doctors had already tried to free her...Her rescue will go down as one of the most stunning pieces of news management yet conceived.".

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:02 PM

Who cares?   He is free and headed home and that's all that's important. If it provides more fodder for conspiracy theorists, though, I guess that's fine. Keeps 'em occupied. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:28 PM

Pretty well all theories about how people behave are conspiracy theories. Some are true and some are false, that's all.

Obviously it's a good thing the man came out of it alive, and let's hope it happens to the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:38 PM

Actually DougR, what is important is the truth about the actual events. Most people, to this day, do not know the true story of Jessica Lynch. Read the link provided by McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:44 PM

I neither believe it or disbelieve it.

For the many uninformed, propaganda has been a part of war for a long time.
So has politics.

There should be no mystery about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:47 PM

dianavan: I KNOW the truth about the Jessica Lynch story. I think it's apalling! The only conspiracy related to the Jessica Lynch story, though, was the conspiracy to cover up the real story. I see no connection what-so-ever to the story about Thomas Hamill.

Why is it so difficult to accept the story as told? Or do you question EVERY single thing you see in print? Let me put it another way. If the story was reported in such a way that it cast a bad light on the U. S. military, the Bush administration, or anyone connected with it...or Tony Blair or the current British government, would you have believed it?

DougR



DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:04 PM

DougR - My questions about the Hamill story are in the second paragraph of the original post. If they lied about Jessica Lynch, why not lie about Hamill? Especially since they needed a good news story.

Do I really care about a truck driver under private contract receiving danger pay? Do I think he deserves a heroes welcome? I care about him as a human being but not if he's part of a web of propaganda.

No, I don't believe everything in print and I don't believe digital images either. I am smart enough to know that what is presented in the media today (regardless of sides) is manipulated by the Bush administration. Do you believe Hamill is a National Hero?

What I fail to understand is how you can believe anything the Bush administration and his media mongrels have to say. How long did they hold those photos of the tortured Iraqis? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:15 PM

"I care about him as a human being but not if he's part of a web of propaganda."

So, then -- if he's used by a propaganda effort, even if it's neither with his cooperation nor due to any actions on his part, you don't care about him as a human being?

Does this mean that you wouldn't care about a famine victim whose picture was used in an advertising campaign (advertising is, after all, a type of propaganda)?

We part company here, dianavan. I even mourn for the lost humanity of Idi Amin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and others, even while I loathe and despise their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:22 PM

There was a previous time when a hostage escaped in a similar way - Jerry Levin, a former CNN Correspondent who was held for eleven months by Hezbollah in Lebanon in 1984-85. After his escape he became an committed campaigner for reconciliation and Palestinian rights.

I seem to remember that there were doubts expressed about whether his escape was real too - emanating from people who disagreed with his views. (Here is an article by him.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:26 PM

If he's willingly co-operating as part of the propaganda machinery - you are right. I don't care about him. I think he's scum.

But we don't know this, do we?

I do know that he went to Iraq for profit. I don't consider him an innocent victim if thats what you mean. He was probably making some very big money. He decided to take his chances and he lost but he was found - maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Cluin
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:29 PM

Good for him. I think everybody deserves a tickertape parade at least once in their lives. Good on him if he gets his. Don't particularly care what for. At least he didn't have to kill anybody for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 06:26 PM

Dianavan: you seem to think it is a sin or a crime to make a lot of money. I doubt any independent contractor would go to work in Iraq without getting a large amount of money, and I don't blame them.

There were interviews with soldiers who picked the hostage up in our local newspaper today. There was absolutely NOTHING that implied that he was a hero, or that he was part of any conspiracy. The fact that he escaped IS news. The media is going to jump on it like flies on you-know-what! Hammil didn't write the headlines on the stories you know, healine writers do that.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 07:13 PM

DougR - You don't blame them for involving themselves in war for profit? Fair enough then - they knew the risks. I make money too, most of us do. Most of us have the common sense to leave the hazard pay alone, especially if innocent civilians are being shot by the military forces that are supposed to be protecting you. Seems you are having a little trouble understanding cause and effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 04 - 07:31 PM

Doug:

What about the Lynch story? I was so happy to learn she had been rescued, I phoned her home the story was released. The call couldn't get through. I ended up calling a police department in a town near where she lived and asking if they'd be kind enough to pass the message of congratulations along to the family. Yeah, I'm real pleased the girl got out, but I am real pissed with the spin bastards in Washington. That's the truth, Doug. Think of it what you will.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 May 04 - 07:33 PM

I fail to see how simply because someone was a prisoner and escapes when he gets the chance is a hero. If you read Winston Churchill's exploits as an escaped prisoner during the Boer War, you may think that he was pretty dashing. But not a hero.

A hero is someone who does something heroic -- this usually means with unusual courage against bad odds. This inflation of language is ridiculous. Leonidas and the 300 Spartans -- that is heroic. Horatius at the bridge, that sort of thing. Eluding your captors is not automatically heroic.

I am sure if the guy hadn't escaped they would have found some other good news story -- an American soldier helping an Iraqi grandmother cross the street -- to provide "balance" (cover). This is the way of the world, one might as well get used to it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:41 PM

Here is one man I consider is on the road to heroism:

William Rivers Pitt, in an address to students on the 34th anniversary of Kent State.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/050504A.shtml

Excerpt: "I can think of few greater crimes than that which has been committed against us all, and against the world entire, by this administration. Make no mistake, it is a crime. It is a crime, and by God in heaven, there will be a reckoning for it."

If Bush were as eloquent as Mr. Pitt in this speech, he would be a far more dangerous man.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:58 PM

He's not as eloquent as Brad Pitt.

dianavan does have a problem with American people who make a lot of money. To her they are all corporate scum with no values. Grow up, Honey. The '60s are a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:57 AM

Wrong Martin - I have trouble with people who have no ethics and as a result have alot of money. There is a difference. I know plenty of people who have money and ethics, too. Most of them have inherited and didn't have to lie and cheat to get it. Some of them married it. Others manage to get their money through "right livelihood". Most, however, profit from the hard work of their employees without giving two shits about health and welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:52 AM

Then the employees should find work elsewhere. This CAN be done, although it might involve disrupting your life. My response to that is "So?"

I disrupted my life exactly one year ago today, at an age when I should be thinking of retirement as well. I'm far better off for it.

Do you abhor Andrew Carnegie? He made his wealth "on the backs of his workers" and yet spent about 75% of his fortune (est. at USD 444,000,000 at his death) building libraries and such around the world. Not only that, but he he did it because he believed that money of the wealthy (after their families were modestly cared for) should be plowed back into the community. He was in favor of death taxes that would pretty much wipe out fortunes.

How about Bill Gates? Or Ted Turner?

Precisely because people are NOT equal -- in their intelligence, ambition, drive, etc. -- humanity hasn't, as far as I know, come up with a system of rewards that was truly fair and equitable. So you work and you get paid for your work. You might disagree about the value of your work ("I need a raise!"). But even in monastic communities where evenything is supposed to be held in common, some are more equal than others.

So the guy wanted to make more money and he went to work in Iraq -- trading his labor and taking his chances with death, maiming or capture for a reward that was greater than he could have gotten if he stayed home. Those who take chances have always been rewarded more highly than those who don't.

As the saying goes, "The cowards never started and the weak died on the way." And that says nothing about my respect for them as humans, either.

It always comes down to choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:56 AM

"The '60s are a long time ago."

It always puzzles me how people glibly come out with that kind of remark - as if dates had anything to do with it? If an idea is nonsense today, it was nonsense forty years ago, or two thosuand years ago. And if an idea was true forty years ago or two thousand years ago, it's still true today.

As time passes we may learn some new facts, and gather some new information. But then we forget a lot of things as well, and often lose sight of things that are still worth looking at.

..................

There's no need to assume any great distinction between escaping and being released, or to assume some kind of special conspiracy. After all, in this case, if the guards weren't there and the door wasn't properly locked, it could have been either.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:56 AM

McGrath: I think the poster was using that term to describe an era that many people think was a driving force that changed government policy. I'm referring to the '60's when so many people (most of them young) demonstrated in the streets in opposition to what they thought was an unjust war). Those that want to believe that ...ok by me. I, and many others, don't see it that way. Both groups have a right to their own opinion. At least I believe they do. My personal opinion is that the demonstrations probably were good because most of them needed the exercise.

I long ago disabused myself of the notion that those with a liberal political bent (the spin word today is "progressive" I guess rather than "liberal")were "fairer" and more "tolerant" of someone whose political views differed from their own. They are every bit as judgemental and have as "closed mind" as those they point their fingers at.

I am reviled on this forum almost daily because I believe GWB is an effective president who has handled the war on terrorism in the correct manner including displacing Saddam. I am accused of "backing" George blindly. Those that do so find nothing wrong about their own constant berating of our president and do not see that thier opposition is as deeply rooted as is my support.

One poster even went so far as to suggest that I, and the few other posters of conservative persuasion, cease and desist posting at all so that the forum will express only the "progressive" point of view.

When Max establishes a policy that only posters of the liberal (excuse:progressive) persuasion are welcome on the Mudcat, then I'll be gone.

'Til then, fogetaboutit.

Dinavan: Your assessment of what is "acceptable" for someone to have wealth makes no sense to me at all. How can you say most of them who are ethical inherited their money? Me thinks your judgement is a bit skewed (but that's only my opinion of course).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:23 AM

A 'well paid mercenary' hero? ...oxymoron in my opinion. I'm glad he's alright, dianavan... I don't agree with your inhumanity. He may be misguided, but he's trying to feed his family in a stripped down US sconomy... and thats not scummy. The creation of the defated market conditions...? Imo, that is done by scum...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: SueB
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:25 AM

The local news here showed the wife of the escaped guy talking to him on the phone for the first time since his escape and sobbing etc. I'm pretty sure it was the same guy. It seemed to show that he's just an ordinary working class guy, with an ordinary working class family and home, and a wife who didn't mind sharing her relief and copious amounts of snot with the public, or wasn't capable of telling the cameras to get lost, I couldn't say which. The weirdest part of the story was that he apparently escaped once, went back to his captors, and then escaped a second time. This raises questions about his captors - were they incompetent or didn't they care if he escaped? Maybe this guy got drunk, blacked out, woke up and didn't know where he was, maybe even some Iraqis found him and wiped the puke off him and pointed him back in the direction of the American
forces. My point is, we don't know enough about the guy to judge him, and most of us will probably never know what actually happened to the guy, just as we might never have known the true story behind the Jessica Lynch thing if the powers that be hadn't tried to turn it into something it wasn't, and use it to manipulate public opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:47 AM

Another question occured to me:

If someone you respected -- say, oh, of the caliber of Bertrand Russell -- appeared in an anti-Iraq war commercial and was paid for it -- would you lose respect for him and consider him scum? Suppose that you knew for a fact that the person was only trying to make money to take care of his family, or needed the money to help pay his college bills?

How would this person differ from Bob Dylan doing a commercial for Victoria's Secret?

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:40 PM

I think you've probably given as good as you get, Doug. Tempers sometimes get a bit high when people care about issues. I think it's always best to cool off before posting a response to anything that annoys us.

I quite agree that some people on the left can be as intolerant of people they disagree with as anyone on the right. It doesn't help,in either case.

Though much of the time I disagree with the way many issues are categorised as "left and "right" - when it comes to whether a war is a just war or not, that's something that should transcend those kind of political differences, and the same should apply when it comes to getting angry about injustice generally. There have been plenty of people who in general held right-wing views who have been active in causes which have been labelled "left", and the other way too. It's strange that issues around conservation seem to be seen, especially in America, as being left-wing.

But I can't see lack of respect towards political leaders as falling into the same category as intolerance towards people we are arguing with. Being disrespected and mocked is part of the job description of politicians. And they typically do it of their opponents, either directly or though other people. (There are some exceptions - in England for example left-wing veteran Tony Benn, who is scrupulous about never getting personal, or being discourteous to an opponent in a discussion.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:45 PM

Doug, I haven't always agreed with your views, but I have always read them. I also wished you a happy birthday, because despite our differences, I think you are honest in your beliefs. (We talked about that once a few months back.)

Will you speak to the following please? : Jessica Lynch

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:06 PM

Errr Kevin, Anthony Wedgewood-Benn - Second Viscount Stansgate - aka Tony Benn - used his acolites such as Francis Morrel to do the dirty work. I know cos not that many years ago I was on the reciving end of it.

Personally when such arseholes as Reg Race got the chop from the rank and file of the party I p*****d myself laughing.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:12 PM

Doug, perhaps you're familiar with this:

"...I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
And I cheered when the Commies were thrown out
From the AFL-CIO doors
And I love Puerto Ricans and negroes
As long as they don't move next door.
Love me, love me, love me, I'm a Liberal."

Phil Ochs wrote it back around '67 or so.

I think that it was Dick Gregory who said that he'd rather deal with a Klansman than a Liberal, because he knew where the Klansman stood.

You think about your beliefs, and I respect that. I'm certain that you know that there are conservatives who are just as knee-jerk as many liberals are. I can't respect those on either side who mouth sayings which they have obviously never given any thought to, but who have simply taken them as their own.

I might disagree with you, but I respect you. Believe it.

"Once I was young and implusive
I wore every concievable pin
Even went to Socialist rallies
I learned all the old Union hymns,
But now I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in.
Love me, love me, love me, I'm a Liberal."

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:23 PM

Ummm... Rapaire, what are you getting at? I don't see the connection between questioning the heroism of mercenaries, and the advertizing marketplace's 'liberal' budget. Is Bob Dylan a hero for confusing his image with scantily clad posers? Huh?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:39 PM

Simply that we are all of us prostitutes in one way or another, at one time or another.

I fail to see the difference between a soldier in combat fighting for something -- even if it's just the respect of their comrades in arms -- and an antiwar protester fighting for his or her beliefs, caught up in the euphoria of the moment.

It's been said in this thread that "sellouts" to propaganda don't deserve respect. Okay, what about Dylan? And others who have allowed their music and/or art to be used to sell merchandise?

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:02 PM

Oh, I don't know... Rubbish it is to disrespect a person for some beleif or other... These are just PC head trips, imo...

I didn't enjoy the VS-Dylan co-creation, but I don't really like either of them anyway...

Sure... civil disobedience creates it's own 'front line', and many 'heros' have felt compelled to embrace it as effective means...

Some think that if you are happy, you're a sellout...

I wish we would encourage peace and democracy in Iraq. All the rest is just irritation...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:52 PM

I don't respect the part Dylan played in the VS ad but its not the same as someone pulling the wool over the eyes of Americans during a war.

At least what Dylan did was slightly humorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:45 AM

You mean, Gareth, you've got evidence that Tony Benn sat down with his mates and plotted a personal atack against you?

Whatever, it seems to me it's not a good way of arguing a point when people come on aggressive or mocking towards people they are engaged with in discussion. Regardless of politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Another American Hero?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:52 PM

I didn't say that I approved of those "pulling the wool" over the eyes of Americans or of anyone else. I don't. But because someone is used, with or without their consent, don't automatically make that person someone who has "sold out".

Even if it did, I would still respect the humanity that is common to all of us. It's when we no longer respect someone humanity, when we no longer recognize them as fellow human beings, that we look at them as pieces of garbage than can be used and discarded or torn to shreds.