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BS: Another set of pictures
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Subject: BS: Another set of pictures From: Steve in Idaho Date: 07 May 04 - 12:47 PM Go here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 May 04 - 12:55 PM Norton1 - I gave it quite a long time, and all I got is "loading." I do have a fairly slow connection, but the "art" wasn't too impressive. It did change through "2%," "4%," ... all the way up to "14%" while I got another cup of coffee. Any idea how big the page is? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Amos Date: 07 May 04 - 01:06 PM It is not a page, but a Flash presentation of colored images. It will load if given long enough, or if you have a high bandwidth connection. Norton, I have a deep respect for the brotherhood and loyalty I have seen you express over the years toward your fellow military people, and to a large degree I share it. But I hope you will forgive me if I take exception to those sentiments being promoted uncritically in a way that draws close parallels between WW II and the current operation in Iraq. The Second World War was not avoidable for us. We avoided it until we could not tolerate avoiding it any further. The Iraqi operation was completely avoidable, IMHO. This does not detract from the courage of those who went and did what they were ordered to do. But it reflects poorly on the choices made by those controlling the scenario. Courage and competency and munitions spent unnecessarily are hugely wasteful. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Deda Date: 07 May 04 - 01:10 PM It's aseries of lovely shots of American soldiers being heroic and human and admirable and inspiring -- which they certainly are. As recent news photos show, they can also be brutal and arrogant in the extreme. But the link above is patriotic hagiography. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 May 04 - 01:52 PM This is a maudlin bit of propaganda, completely populated with men (except to drag in the word "women" in the last slide to tie them into this morass) and meant to make connections between World War II, the events of September 11, 2001, and the current obscene "war" in Iraq. None of these elements in fact has anything to do with each other, and the cheap shot of all of the sentimental stuff is there to somehow make the viewer feel guilty if they don't support that Iraq bit as much as the World War and the shock and horror of September 11. It's a cheap shot. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Bill D Date: 07 May 04 - 03:14 PM The situation is about the same with ANY group of people with power over others...soldiers, police, judges, teachers, priests...whatever. Most are no doubt honest, dedicated and concerned...'some' are bad apples with prejudices and a warped sense of humor. The trick is to do the weeding process BEFORE they get into positions where they can cause major problems. In Iraq, someone needed to explicitly say "...and be advised, we will tolerate **NO** deviation from the code of military justice...here are the rules and limits- stick to them or face court-martial." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Deda Date: 07 May 04 - 05:10 PM He's fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France He's fighting for the USA and he's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan And he thinks he'll put an end to war this way He's fighting for democracy, he's fighting for the Reds He's fighting for the good of all He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die And he never reads the writing on the wall He's the universal soldier and he is really is to blame His orders come from far away no more They come from him and you and me and brothers, can't you see This is not the way to put an end to war - Buffie Ste-Marie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: mg Date: 07 May 04 - 10:53 PM Tie women into this morass? It looks to me like they are at the heart of it. I have never believed women belong everywhere in the military..in the finance office, yes. Guarding male prisoners, no, never. Lots of areas in between. And a woman BG was in charge of some aspect of this all, as much as it seems anyone was. Part of what has to come out of this is not just what in the hell is going on in the military, but what is going on in our society at large that we are producing these people. And we are. The crudifying of America, via the Simpsons and other filth on TV, rap music (some of it)...is leading us all, and our children, down this path. Some will not be strong enough, if put in tough situations, to withstand either their own sordid impulses or pressure from others. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST Date: 07 May 04 - 11:33 PM Not even Kitsch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Peace Date: 07 May 04 - 11:35 PM I could not agree with you more, Mary. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 May 04 - 01:30 AM Actually, if you watch the Simpsons, you see the irony and the criticism, thinly veiled, often not at all veiled, by humor. You could easily use many of the episodes in ethics classes. But there has been a real and generalized dumming down of American public discourse in popular literature and entertainment, particularly as advertisers seek an ever larger common denominator and investors want higher profits. Critical thinking and a basic understanding of civics are skills not broached by most programing, and apparently, lost in schools where the goal is now to teach to standardized tests. I do think women belong "everywhere" in the military, in hopes that if people decide something is too horrible for women to be doing that maybe they would think it is too horrible for men to be doing also. But that doesn't seem to have happened. I think it was inappropriate to have a woman guarding men prisoners; better to have the genders separate and guarded by their own. Even there the power vs. powerless formula is one that needs careful attention. The behavior of that one woman in particular, to seemingly get such pleasure out of the misery of others, is horrible. Clearly she sees that group of prisoners as subhuman. Her pleasure is pornographic. It seems worse that it would come from a woman, because we encounter this kind of thing so rarely in women (lack of opportunity, or is it a gendered difference? I won't speculate here, now.) I posted information about Lynndie England on another thread. She has been formally charged with four crimes. I heard it on the news just this evening. She is clearly going to be the poster child bad behavior in the American military and is the prototype of the modern day Ugly American. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Barry Finn Date: 08 May 04 - 02:15 AM This did not happen because a woman (who has no place in the military, rings of, should be kept bare foot & pregnant) was at the helm or who's duty was to safe guard prisoners. This happen because it was allowed to happen. The poor soldier who first reported about the recent events concerning torture is the one who's quickly becoming an outcast (while the others are being sacrificed for those higher up the chain of command) when he should've been held up, not as a hero but as a model of how others should react being placed in the same situation. This in itself is a problem. This has been an ongoing problem in the military & society. My best friend while in Viet Nam was in a chopper with 2 prisoners who were being questioned. When the first refused to give any info he was thrown out in mid flight, they did get info from the 2nd prisoner (Peter was not a part of this, maybe if he'd come forward about it he'd would've of been able to live with himself. Another time he pulled his side arm on 3 soldiers & threaten to kill them if they tried to rape a local woman, this is not as uncommon as some would have you believe. The strain & stress of war does a lot of weird things to a lot of different people. While my brother was in Viet Nam as a seal (on a sub) it was the sub's duty to drop him off & after his mission was complete retrieve him. These missions in Laos & Cambodia (but we weren't there?) were overseen by the Citizens in Action (a nick name for the CIA who wore civilian clothes while onboard). He still can't even stand to say more than, what he was directed to do was to ghastly. He was able to live with himself but he was/is one of the walking dead. If those that sent others to war lived what the common foot soldier (& their families) lives with they'd be a bit less cavalier about tossing away a life as if it were just a mere whim. When you have of no status inprisons run by the CIA or civilian contractors or untrained children who answer to only God & that's only in the after life there's bound to be a fowl stench coming from the cesspool that they all live in. TV & rap don't cause these conditions, if anything some rappers (I know but not all) try to bring to the light of day the torturous conditions they have to survive in. By the age of, I'd say 10, a large portion of the poor inner city kids are already suffering from post traumatic stress, from a daily dose of death, isn't this a form of torture? When kids are allowed to bully others in school the educational intuitions become nothing better than a Gladiator School. I'm not in the least bit surprised at the ongoing events given the high & almighty "God's on our Side" attitude. Almost a bit like a new version of the Crusades with maybe a touch of the Spanish Inquisition tossed in for good measure. When you have a society that attempts to bury the UN a peace seeking organization & push in it's place NATO, a militarily organization there's something strange a field. When you have a society that's pisses on the Geneva Convention & steals the Civil Rights of it's people, I'd begin to think it's a movement of some kind. When you have a government that's states "you're either with us or against us" & those that'll disagree or even question are deemed traitors, when the press is afraid to ask the questions that matter & report the full truth, then I think we're the verge of living in a lawless society. The buck doesn't stop here, it just doesn't stop. When the country's run by corruption & corporations, who in their right mind wouldn't think that they have Carte Blanch to do as they please. Thank goodness there's a difference between WWII & now. If it were today, after freeing those in the concertation camps we'd probably end up taking their lives in the process. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: George Papavgeris Date: 08 May 04 - 03:25 AM Whoa there, Barry, that was a big paragraph, and though I agree with your sentiments by and large, it is not easy to identify the point you're trying to make. Perhaps the telling sentence is near the top "It happened because it was allowed to happen"? If so, I agree. But I wouldn't leave it at the "society is at fault" stage. I'd take one more step and blame us all individually. Societies, and systems of government, are formed and defined by individuals. As long as a sufficient number (majority?) of individuals is educated or brought up with solid ethic foundations, and as long as these same individuals do not allow themselves to be guided by mob rule, such things should not happen. They they do happen, is an indictment on the ethics of the majority and/or their courage to stand for what they believe in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 04 - 07:58 AM Looking at those pictures, the thought that kept running through my mind was, how all these decent and brave people have been insulted and betrayed, and used. It would have been easy to produce a similar set of images from any country's army - Saddam's Iraq, Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany.- In any army there are going to be people trying to act as decent human beings. Probably most people in most armies. But when those images are used to try to generate uncritical support for a nation in waging war in any place, any time, that is a betrayal and an insult of the people in the pictures. And I also had running through my mind the other set of pictures - the pictures that showed another side of it, through My Lai and all the way of to Abu Ghraib, and the other pictures that were never taken of stuff as bad as that or worse. Both sets of pictures have to be held together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST Date: 08 May 04 - 10:37 AM The acts commited by those 'soldiers', have set a precedent for the treatment that will be dished out to any Western military personnel unfortunate enough to be captured in the future. The consequences of these mindless thugs will maim, injure and kill many of our men, for many years to come. And in Lynndie's hometown she is becoming a 'hero'. Can these people really not see the harm that has been done? Their own people are endangering generations of soldiers to come. Maybe the recruits should have indepth psychological and intelligence testing before being given a uniform. But then how many would actually pass? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Amos Date: 08 May 04 - 11:05 AM Maybe the lesson is that NO war should be endured and that ALL war is intolerable and criminal. Prior to Bush, the Warmonger President, we at least tried to justify our war-making as defensive and therefore necessary. It might be fallacious to extend defensive into "necessary". But one thing is for certain: a pre-emptive invasion is intolerably arrogant. In fact the man who chooses pre-emptive war as a tool of diplomacy is an insufferable little prick. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: pdq Date: 08 May 04 - 11:50 AM mary garvey...please include "Bevis and Butthead", MTV, VH 1, violent video games, pornography, etc., etc., etc., an nauseum... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: SINSULL Date: 08 May 04 - 11:51 AM Thanks, Barry. Some things never change. What mother raises her child to go to war and become a monster? What society is foolish enough to believe that their heroes come back untouched by the horrors in which they participate? Ms. English and her fiance appeared together in some of these pictures. He has a history of spousal abuse with several Orders Of Protection issued against him by his ex-wife as well as accusations of abuse against prisoners in his care in the States. This appears to be a match made in heaven (or hell). BUT these are aberrations not the conduct of the average soldier. I believe this is the point that Norton1 is making and I agree with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Amos Date: 08 May 04 - 12:03 PM And so do I, Sins. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 08 May 04 - 12:40 PM Its not just the latest hoohaw that is making a bad name of US service people, its a history of arrogant behavior over a period of 50 years. Need I list all the screwups? Vietnam - why did not the people want to be 'freed' by the USA? Next complete misunderstanding Iran. Despite the good looking women there who run about without viels, these people are still Moslem and US service men eager to practice liberty according to another law simply insulted and raped them. In Moslem countries if you must have more than one wife you have to take care of the children for the rest of your life. Then we had a series of misunderstandings in Japan, Korea and the rest -- gee even in England, women asked the USA to go home, please. The USA that helped liberate Europe is not the USA of today, and to pretend otherwise is simply dangerous. It's not OC that Private England was stooged into doing what she did, rather it is the fact that she knew no better, that we must address and fix. I could have truely written that comment 30 years ago and it would have been no less true. We coral people into Trailer Parks and Projects where low and scum is the only way of life. We send the children to school where the idea of discipline is decided by lawcourts, where kids think it cool to murder teachers, where there is no moral training at all, and where self aggrandising and tax sucking is the rule. How then can we expect anything but crap from such recruits when we give them a gun and prisioners to play with? Sending these people into strickly enforced religious society is like giving nukes to a bunch of apes. They haven't a clue about right and wrong in Moslem society. By Moslems they are percieved as uncooth ignorant animals with guns OC. The Iraqi idea of freedom has absolutely nothing in common with Mr Rumsfeldt's so how on earth could Private England have even a clue? Our freedom is their hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: George Papavgeris Date: 08 May 04 - 12:46 PM I'll be pedantic once more, Amos/Sinsull, and point out that the use of words like "aberration" and "average" actually shift the perspective from a factual one to a statistical one. They almost lead us towards acceptance and peace of mind: On average we are still good people, forming a good sciety, so no need to worry or chase that particular rabbit too hard. Yet the facts are facts. These photos were taken. These actions were carried out (all subject to the court martial decisions, of course). If so, there is a definite amount of blame to be apportioned to the perpetrators; to those who encouraged them; to those who allowed the slack controls that permitted such actions; to the families and communities that nurtured them. And other communities, and families, and individuals, should learn from this case and attempt to improve themselves. I wouldn't want a statistical perspective on the situation that would cloud individual responsibility. I am not suggesting that you used the terms intending to shift the perspective, and at a different time I might have done the same myself. It is a human tendency to generalise from individual facts. But I do feel strongly that individual responsibility should not be inadvertedly obscured. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 May 04 - 01:04 PM Rumsfeld has his back against the wall:
I think you'll find that this ties in with abuses of war that are found anywhere, anytime, but that haven't been so openly or perhaps the better term is "widely" acknowledged until recent times. We can look to dramas about the World Wars and see hints at some of this, to do with the military and to do with prisoners of war (anyone else watch the British series Tenko and it's sequel?). But there is also an obscene pornographic element, I didn't use that word carelessly or in a general sense in my earlier post. Blaming television is an easy but not very productive answer. We are all hamsters running in circles in our cages, and as long as we have food to eat, cars to drive, places to go to be entertained, and think we have "enough" (which by living standards around the rest of the world is "way too much!") and we remain totally disconnected, in the dark, about how those resources come to us all of the rest of this is going to get past us also. There is a remarkable book that examines the role of multinational corporations in world governments and economics by Dr. Aaran E. Gare called Postmodernism and the Environmental Crisis. You can find his vita and some of his writings online here. The Postmodernism book is available in print or as an e-book. I challenge anyone to read Gare's book then come back with a simple answer. You won't be able to, but at least your eyes will at last be open. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Amos Date: 08 May 04 - 01:05 PM Well, fair enough, Greko -- you want to prevent one kind of distortion, and I agree; but I want to prevent another kind of distortion, which is painting all those who wear the uniform with the same brush. So far in the images I have seen there were three participating GIs, and their not seen but surely involved superiors. How many particpants in the Abu Ghraib scandal do ytou think there were? fifty? If similar conditions occur in twenty POW sites around the world, a thousand officers and enlisted persons? Or perhaps five thousand, all told? The cancer is ugly, but it is bounded. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: George Papavgeris Date: 08 May 04 - 01:33 PM I agree about the need to avoid the other kind of distortion, Amos. To describe it as "ugly but bounded" I think is very fair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: DonMeixner Date: 08 May 04 - 01:39 PM Thanks Norton. I appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 08 May 04 - 03:00 PM Thank you Norton
Their homepage Nose-Art section page 7, is also moving.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 04 - 03:43 PM Both sets of images are needed to get a true understanding. But it seems to me that using images from World War II to generate support for the Iraq occupation is a questionable thing to do. (And I'm not accusing Norton of doing that.) Maybe it would balance better with images from a few more of the previous wars the USA were involved in, such as the Civil War. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 May 04 - 04:54 PM This is an unwinnable war. The US has disgraced itself in world opinion. Arabs are hopping mad. (Maybe they do the same thing to their own people sometimes but they are not dominating a foreign country). Rumsfeld, the Lynndie England girl, and all of it is really beside the point. On June 30, there is no one government in place for Iraq. Just furthur domination by the Bush Administration. It's another Vietnam and we may as well get used to that idea. It has strengthened the resolve of Al Quaeda. If they institute a draft, there will still not be "getting the job done" because the "job" is coercing democracy at the point of a gun. That has never worked. The reason that construction workers are being targeted is because they represent the business interests that iraqis know do not represent them. Private American contractors must be replaced by construction businesses that reflect the world community through the UN and not the narrow interests of Brown, Root and Kellogg or Haliburton. In short, the Bush Administration has not made the world more secure or safe from Al Quaeda or anyone else. Internationalize the process and their might be some dim hope for a decent outcome. In the meantime, there will be more atrocities on all sides including the US. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST,Boab Date: 09 May 04 - 03:24 AM Sorry, Sir----but no amount of "favourable" imagery from the Second World War can counteract the disgusting facts which have been laid bare in Iraq. In fact, had the Nazis been able to pursue a propaganda campaign even beyond their defeat, they would have had no trouble composing just such a selection showing the benign and humanitarian nature of their Wermacht. Time for showing true shame and remorse; self-aggrindising propaganda is the last thing that is needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: GUEST,Boab Date: 09 May 04 - 03:25 AM Make "aggrindising" read "aggrandising"! Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another set of pictures From: Steve in Idaho Date: 10 May 04 - 10:42 AM I wondered about the reaction to this. It was not meant to support the war. It was exactly what it was - people are people and they come from communites. We do amazing things by and large. And we are also capable of some pretty ugly things. I figured there needed to be a bit more balanced perspective on what the troops are doing. Like someone above mentioned - troops from all nations answer their country's call. And they do the best they can in the circumstances. I'd seen enough of the negative and wanted those who were so inclined to see the troops in their better moments. I received an e-mail from a friend who witnessed a troop throw himself on a grenade to save an Iraqi girl of about age 10-11. One dead American and one live Iraqi girl. Selfless acts mingled with horrific excesses make up what war is. And the vast majority of citizens who end up going are of the selfless variety. I reckon I just have a lot more memories of the good we did during my war than of the bad. Part of that is most likely denial - but I prefer to remember the good in order to remain faithful to my integrity and sense of honor. We, as Marines, did not go to be bad - we went because we believed we could do some good. Just as my father did in WW-II, my uncle in Korea, and me in Vietnam. And as I grow older I find that I spend a lot more time with my family and the good memories I can keep from that. So I meant no disrespect to those who wish to remain true to whatever their belief system may be - just that a balanced view of those who are trying to do their best in a tough situation need to remain in our prayers and hearts. They will come home to us and for us to not treat them gently as changed humans would be as unconscionable as those who violated those Iraqi prisoners. For those troops are still us - Steve |
