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War Mongering Songs

Rabbi-Sol 23 Jun 04 - 11:03 PM
alanabit 24 Jun 04 - 03:19 AM
Flash Company 24 Jun 04 - 07:36 AM
greg stephens 24 Jun 04 - 08:30 AM
greg stephens 24 Jun 04 - 08:41 AM
Rapparee 24 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND 24 Jun 04 - 10:44 AM
Flash Company 24 Jun 04 - 11:33 AM
saulgoldie 24 Jun 04 - 11:50 AM
Uncle_DaveO 24 Jun 04 - 12:18 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM
Uncle_DaveO 24 Jun 04 - 05:06 PM
Rapparee 24 Jun 04 - 05:44 PM
Deda 24 Jun 04 - 05:51 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Jun 04 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,guest 24 Jun 04 - 06:17 PM
emjay 24 Jun 04 - 06:45 PM
Susanne (skw) 24 Jun 04 - 06:51 PM
Joe_F 24 Jun 04 - 07:05 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Jun 04 - 07:12 PM
Gareth 24 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Paranoid Android 24 Jun 04 - 09:42 PM
LadyJean 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM
alanabit 25 Jun 04 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Greycap 25 Jun 04 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,guest mick 25 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM
el ted 25 Jun 04 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND 25 Jun 04 - 11:54 AM
Georgiansilver 25 Jun 04 - 01:30 PM
Rapparee 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM
Amos 25 Jun 04 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Wotcha in Italia 25 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Santa 25 Jun 04 - 05:17 PM
greg stephens 26 Jun 04 - 02:14 AM
rich-joy 26 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM
Susanne (skw) 26 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM
Gareth 26 Jun 04 - 07:25 PM
Rapparee 26 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Barrie Roberts 26 Jun 04 - 10:18 PM
cobber 26 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM
Ferrara 27 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM
Charley Noble 27 Jun 04 - 01:10 PM
Ferrara 27 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM
Joe_F 27 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM
Bert 27 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM
Bert 27 Jun 04 - 08:01 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Jun 04 - 09:52 AM
Gareth 28 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM
Grab 28 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM
alanabit 28 Jun 04 - 02:17 PM
greg stephens 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Displaced Camelotian 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM
Grab 28 Jun 04 - 03:37 PM
Rapparee 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 28 Jun 04 - 05:23 PM
Gareth 28 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM
GUEST 28 Jun 04 - 05:53 PM
Charley Noble 28 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM
greg stephens 28 Jun 04 - 07:37 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Jun 04 - 08:12 PM
Teribus 29 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM
Rapparee 29 Jun 04 - 08:39 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 04 - 11:12 AM
DonMeixner 29 Jun 04 - 06:37 PM
Gareth 29 Jun 04 - 07:19 PM
Stewie 30 Jun 04 - 02:40 AM
GUEST 30 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM
Ferrara 01 Jul 04 - 01:35 AM
Rapparee 01 Jul 04 - 07:21 PM
Stewie 01 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM
GUEST 01 Jul 04 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,sing2all 07 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,sing2all 07 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM
Rabbi-Sol 08 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 01:25 PM
GUEST 04 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 02:44 PM
GUEST 04 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Jim Maffie 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM
whozit 13 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Mike Miller 13 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM
Ebbie 13 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM
stallion 14 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Joe_F 14 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM
LadyJean 15 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Joe_F 15 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Mike Miller 15 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM
robomatic 15 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM
toadfrog 20 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania) 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 AM
reggie miles 21 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM
JedMarum 21 Jul 09 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania) 21 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM
Joe_F 21 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 30 Aug 09 - 10:44 PM
Lighter 31 Aug 09 - 01:09 PM
Joe_F 31 Aug 09 - 06:31 PM
Lighter 31 Aug 09 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Woodsie 05 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM
Joe_F 05 Sep 12 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Lighter 05 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Sep 12 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Paul Slade 05 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM
PHJim 05 Sep 12 - 07:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Sep 12 - 07:51 PM
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Subject: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:03 PM

My friend's grandmother used to sing this song when she was a child, to the tune of "There'll Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight".

         Spain Spain Spain
         They ought to be ashamed
         For doing such a thing
         Like blowing up the Maine
         And when be war
         We'll sock them in the jaw
         There'll be a hot time in the old town tonight

This tune was obviously used to provoke the Spanish American War. Does anybody have similar songs such as this ? Please post them here. It does not have to be a war in which the USA was involved. It can relate to any other nation, being that this is an international forum. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 03:19 AM

Unfortunately there are plenty of songs urging war. I believe the term "jingoism" goes back to a broadsheet ditty which stirred up British passions as the Crimean War was getting under way. The song I am referring to may be called, "By Jingo", but I have no desire to dig it out or read its rabble rousing sentiments again.
I have always thought that "Four Green Fields" and "The Minstrel Boy" also glorify war. The English seem to like songs like "Rule Britannia" and "The British Grenadier". I always cringe when I hear that crass line in "Hearts of Oak" which goes, "For who are as free as the sons of the waves?" The truth was that those men were mainly brutally treated slaves.
I am sad to say that this could be a very long thread.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Flash Company
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:36 AM

My gran used to sing:-
Lord Roberts and Kitchener,
Baden Powell and White,
All went off to South Africa
To have a jolly good fight (or shite, depending on the mood she was in!)

FC


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 08:30 AM

Alanabit: I'm sorry to do this, but the lyric you do not wish to hear (read no further, look away NOW) goes:
We dont want to fight
But by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships we've got the men
We've got the money too.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 08:41 AM

The Hitler war gave rise to a good lot of war-mongering songs.
"We'll hang out our washing on the Siegried Line
If the Siegried Line's still there" was a good one.
Particularly memorable was Spike Jones' classic:
"We'll(.....) right in the Fuehrer's face"
(not sure how to transliterate the relevant noise, Spaw is your man for that sort of thing).
    The finest recording from the English folk revival(IMHO) was the Watersons' "Brave Wolfe" . And there is no denying it is a touch on the warlike side.
"One Monday morning as we set sail
The wind did blow a pleasant gale
To fight the French it was our intent
Through smoke and fire
Through smoke and fire
And it was dark and a gloomy night"
etc etc.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM

Awhile back I asked if anyone had the lyrics to a joingoistic song sung, I think, by "The Full Gospel Quartet" (or a name something like that). The chorus goes (and I'm sure only of the first two line and the last one):

The eagle is hurt her feathers are ruffled
Make no mistake she is coming for you
No matter what cave or hole you might hide in
(something) will find you
And America will do what she needs to do.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 10:44 AM

Here are two very singable American songs that, no doubt, were heard and played very at the time of the second world war.
"You`re in the Army Mr. Jones"
          and
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"
The sort of material to foster confidence and camaraderie amongst green, young men going into a very dangerous conflict and thank the Lord they did.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Flash Company
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 11:33 AM

This is the Army, Mr Jones, Written by Irving Berlin for his wartime show which actually came to Manchester,(England) complete with the man himself. He sang 'Oh how I hate to get up in the morning'.
I was too young to see this myself, but I have a friend who did. She confirms Benny Green's assessment of Berlin's singing 'To hear him , you had to hug him!@

FC


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 11:50 AM

"Risin' of the Moon"
"When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again"


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:18 PM

Second World War:

They started something,
But we're going to end it
Right in their own back yard


and

Goodbye, Mama
I'm off to Yokohama!


Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM

Another one was "Remember Pearl Harbor", which I am looking for the words to. (If any one has them, please post them here). Also, my mother used to sing a song to me when I was a child, before the end of WWII. Only later on in life did I realize that it was anti- Japanese. The lyrics went like this:

               Jap-a-needle, Jap-a-needle
               I sew with my needle
               And when I get married
               I'll sew by machine

Did anyone ever hear this before ? I would like to trace the origins of this ditty. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:06 PM

And there was a song about Colin Kelly, the deceased air hero at the beginning of the war. The tale was that he had singlehandedly (singleplanedly?) sunk a Japanese battleship by what we would later call Kamikazi tactics. Much later the naysayers said that he was not a hero but a damfool, that he hadn't sunk anything but killed himself foolishly. I don't remember the details.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:44 PM

Ballad of Rodger Young
Ballad of the Green Berets
Wha would ya nae fight for Charlie?
We Are Coming, Father Abraham
Riding a Raid
Flight of Doodles
La Marseille
Horst Wessel Lieder


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Deda
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:51 PM

Over There, or Johnny Get your Gun -- may have already been mentioned. The lyrics are downright chilling:

Johnnie get your gun, get you gun, get your gun,
Take it on the run, on the run, on the run,
Hear them calling you and me;
Every son of Liberty
Hurry right away, no delay, go today,
Make your daddy glad to have had such a lad
Tell your sweetheart not to pine,
To be proud her boy's in line.

Chorus:
Over There, Over There
Send the word, send the word,
Over There
That the Yanks are coming,
The Yanks are coming,
The drums rum tumming everywhere
So prepare,
Say a Prayer
Send the word,
Send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over.
And we won't be back till it's over over there!

Johnnie get your gun, get you gun, get your gun,
Johnnie show the Hun, you're a Son-of-a-Gun,
Hoist the flag and let her fly
Like true heros do or die
Pack your little kit, show your grit, do your bit,
Soldiers to the ranks from the towns and the tanks,
Make your Mother proud of you and to Liberty be true.

Chorus:
Over There, Over There
Send the word, send the word,
Over There
That the Yanks are coming,
The Yanks are coming,
The drums rum tumming everywhere
So prepare,
Say a Prayer
Send the word,
Send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over.
And we won't be back till it's over over there!


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:59 PM

I remember another one. "Just Like Washington Crossed The Delaware, So Will Pershing Cross The Rhine". SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:17 PM

"Flower of Scotland"


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: emjay
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:45 PM

The song about Colin Kelly started like this:

   There's a star-spngled banner waving somewhere
    In a distant land of heroes brave and true
   Only God's great heroes get to go there
    That is where I want to go when I die.

I don't remember any more of it, but oh, I loved that song when I was small. Now I have to sing a verse or two of The Band Played Waltzing Matilda to get it out of my head. (Did anyone hear Garrison Keillor do a version of it, The Band Played the Star-Spnagled Banner?

Another one that has been mentioned was Rodger Young (I think it was spelled with the d).

I remember part of a verse of that, and I remember singing it in an assembly when I was in the 3rd or 4th grade.
   On the island of New Georgia in the Solomons
    Stands a simple wooden cross alone to tell...

and a line about "grenades against machine guns in the gloom."

At least as many of these as there are the anti-war songs.

And are there songs that are specifically pro-peace more than anti-war?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:51 PM

Horst Wessel Lied is not a warmongering song, it's a straight (and utterly nauseating) incitement to mass murder!


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:05 PM

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is surely the best of the lot.

There is also "The Star-Spangled Banner", which is at any rate a war song, tho as mongering "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just" is rather tepid.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:12 PM

I would consider the Civil War songs " Marching Through Georgia" and " We Are Coming Father Abraham" as being in this category.
SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM

Hmmm ! There are others, better historians than myself, who might wish to comment, but alanabit if I remember correctly "Hearts of Oak", etc. were music hall songs rather than "Shantys" or "Forebiters".

Lower deck songs were slightly more cynical- I'll give you this

"When we did bang, Monsewer Conflan,(SPX2)
You sent us bread and beer,
Now the French are beat, we've nothing to eat,
For you have nothing to fear."


Historically this must refer to Hawke's action against the French in what? The 1770's at Quiberon Bay ??

Never the less I think that your contention "The truth was that those men were mainly brutally treated slaves. is a little sweeping. By comparison to the working classes of England etc ashore, the disipline (SP?) and the rations were little diffrent than ashore, this was the age of the "Bloody Code".

It is also well recorded, and I take consideration to a "prest" man retrospectively volunteering for the volunteers bounty, a sizable proportion of the fleet were volunteers.

On that it must be pointed out that the "prest" men tended to end up in the recieving hulks, and were drafted by the "Port Admiral" into whatever ships were short of compliment.

A fair Captain, and a well known Captain, particullally if he had a reputation as a "prise taker" (not an SP!) could man his ship without resorting to the imprestment service.

Just a thought to toss into the pond of debate !

It is also worth noting that IIRC (and its to late at night to dig out and scan the sources) that something like 1% of the adult male population of GB was serving afloat in 1812.

With regard to those who wore a Redcoat there was no impresment, General poverty was sufficient a recruiting seargent.

If you take the nominal roll of a Battalion of the Line in the Peninsular War at 400 bodies, this roughly equates to the crew of a 38 Frigate, or Half the Compliment of a ship of the line.

I think some perspective should be allowed.

Gareth

" So roll on the Nelson, Rodney, Renown,
This three funnel b*****d(*) is getting me down!"


(*) Believed to be a reference to the County Class Heavy Cruisers.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:42 PM

Amhran na bFiann (The Soldiers Song - Irish National Anthem)
"Soldiers are we whose lives are pledged to Ireland"


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM

My mother, who was born in 1917, would sing a song from The Great War, "Good bye ma, good bye Pa, good bye mule with your old Hee Haw, and fare you well my sweet heart dear, I'll bring you a king for a souvenir. I'll bring you a king and a kaiser too, and that's about all one feller can do."
There's another ditty from that era called the "Indianola" that ends with, "Me just love to kill, gonna go and scalpum Kaiser Bill."

For some reason I always sang "Rally Round the Flag Boys", when driving home from Howard Dean meetups. It's from an older war, but it still suggests fighting is a good idea.

Hollowfox and I were serenading two reenactors, who do the 42nd Highlanders in the French and Indian war with "Twa Recruiting Sergeants".


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:39 AM

I shall have to look up the Horst Wessels Lied. There was a very good documentary about the song on German TV a year or so ago. It turned out that Horst Wessels was no more than yob (gay as it happened - although that bit was not so talked up by the NS) - who died as the result of a brawl. From what I can remember the song was crap. It is interesting just what tedious drivel some of these pro war ditties are. I guess it's the songwriting equivalent of McGonagall's poetry.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:57 AM

Colin Kelly was shot down by Japanese fighter ace Saburo Sakai - before he did any damage to Japanese shipping whatsoever. The US propaganda machine popularized the song ( words on request).
Some others from that era ( they were refererred to as "flags") included:
Smoke on the water ( Roy Acuff)
Won't you send my dog home, Uncle Sam? ( Hank Snow )
Ballad of Rodger Young ( the Country Gentlemen - I think )


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM

O me uncle Dick he had a stick and decided to make a slaughter;
he swore he killed a thousand men at the battle of the Boyne Water.
One fell here and one fell there and one in every quarter,
but one poor soul got a bullet up his hole at the battle of the Boyne Water


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: el ted
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 11:14 AM

Anybody know any fishmongering songs?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 11:54 AM

Fishmongering songs? Yes!
Our version of the west country parody, "Oh, Them Golden Kippers"
and
"Cockles & Mussels Alive Alive-O"

John


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:30 PM

When anyone talks of war songs I always think of those lines in the Skye Boat song, which when sung quietly can have such an effect. The Corries version particularly...The lines are...."Manys the lad, fought on the day, well the claymore did wield. When the night came, silently lay, dead, on Cullodens field" For me those words fire the imagination and are quite graphic in their own way.
Be Blessed.


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Subject: Lyr Add: GOD SAVE THE KING / ...QUEEN
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

God Save The King (Queen):

1. God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

3. Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

4. Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

5. From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 02:21 PM

Onward, Christian soldiers!
Marching, as to war!!
With the cross of Jeeeesus
Going on before!!


The Protestant hymnal is chock full of warmongering tunes justifying violent advance in the name of the Price of Peace. Funny stuff, huh?


A


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Wotcha in Italia
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM

And don't forget "Over the Hills and Far Away ..." from the Beggars' Opera.


"Come Enlist and March I say

And go over the hills and far away ..." (I know I am ...)

Ciao,

Brian


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:17 PM

Unless I have missed it, no-one has mentioned any of the Irish rebel songs...

For English ones, may I recommend a short course of Strawhead? Over the Hills and Far Away will do for a start. Vive Le Roi?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 02:14 AM

Please dont blame the Beggar's Opera for a warmongering "over the hills and far away". John Gay's words to the tune, written specifically for the show, are quite innocuous lovey-dovey stuff. The soldiers-off-to-war version is not from the Beggar's Opera.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: rich-joy
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM

Don't forget that rousing little British number "Soldiers of the Queen" - offset perhaps, by "Here's to the Last to Die" ...

Cheers! R-J


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

Alan, Wessel was a pimp as far as I know, murdered by a rival in a brawl. Roehm and his cronies were the gay ones. And the HWS has nothing at all to do with war, it talks about killing Jews. As far as warmongering songs go, I prefer the Internationale ...


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 07:25 PM

rich-joy Hmmm ! Soldiers of the Queen was a Kipling Poem. Not neccessarily a "Barack room ballad"

The ballad "And here's to the next man to die" well Click 'Ere Certainly sung in the services - I Learnt my version from me father (see previous threads) But was its origin "Warfare" or the depletion of battalions stationed in India or the like, 'cos it is also known as the "Cholora (SP) song".

Still as the old toast went "Bloody War, or Sickly Season", or for the really cynical -

" Beware Oh Beware of the Bight of Benin,
One comes out, for Twenty go in !"


Susanne (SKW) Modern history (apart from the neo nazi's) defines 'Horst Wessel' as a pimp killed in a brawl in a brothel. I concur your defenition.

And if any 'Catters want the ULR's of the Neo-Nazi's Websites whch still promote the "Horst Wessel Lied" PM me, with good reasons why I should supply them. I have to refer to them for research puposes, and I find it nauseating to dig through those sites.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM

Gareth, I've been to those sites too and I quite agree with your assessment. It's like researching in a filthy sewer -- it might be necessary, but it's certainly neither pleasant nor nice. As for the HWL, I was thinking more of how it was used than the words.

It has always seemed to me that the real warmongering songs were written by those who weren't at in the fight.

"An' ye had been whaur I hae been
Ye wadna been sae cantie-o
An' ye had seen what I hae seen
On the braes o' Killiecrankie-o."


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 10:18 PM

'Soldiers of the Queen' is not by Kipling, but by (I think) Leslie Stuart. 'Here's to the Next One to Die' was written by an Army Padre during the epidemic which swept British barracks in India after the Mutiny. So far from being a warmongering song, its about the virtually inevitable fate of those who are forced to fight wars. For that reason it became a great favourite of the Royal Flying Corps pilots during WWI.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: cobber
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM

I guess the reason why there have always been songs glorifying war is because they work so well in getting up the "patriotic fervour". The one that always offended me was the beautiful antiwar song, "Johnny, I hardly knew ye" being bastardised into "When Johnny comes marching home" to give it a completely opposite meaning.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM

Cobber, I've heard there's strong evidence that When Johnny Comes Marching Home actually came first.

IMHO the reasons there are songs glorifying war are manifold. Patriotic fervor is actually already there, for many or most people; the songs express it, they don't just rouse it up. It doesn't have to be stirred up, it's a relic of our evolution (see The Territorial Imperative, by Desmond Morris, etc.) Not saying this is a good thing, just that I believe it's what IS. And many people, especially young people (again IMHO) see fighting an enemy as righteous as well as exciting. Patriotic songs echo their feelings. Then, once you're in a war, no matter who is/was the aggressor, patriotic and other songs about fighting are an important morale booster. They have a lot of value to the people who sing 'em.

Also -- another reason there are so many songs glorifying war is -- they sell! But then, so do the other kind.... When Walter Kittredge wrote "Tenting Tonight," (American Civil War),he was turned down by several publishers on the grounds that the song was unpatriotic and seditious. (good heavens above....). It was finally published by The Hutchinson Family, who were abolitionists as well as musicians. I believe it was the single most popular song among the soldiers on both sides. Guess they didn't think it was "unpatriotic."

I think of "warmongering" as something that people in power do, to further their own political/financial/emotional agendas. It's spiritually bankrupt, pure sleaze. Some of the songs listed above seem truly ugly and "warmongering" but I would simply characterize some of the others, such as The Minstrel Boy, as expressing positive aspects of the fighting spirit that is one element of the human heart & mind.

Oh Lord I should stay away from Mudcat late at night! Ah well.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 01:10 PM

This old chant about sums it up:

THE FOUR HORSEMEN

(Chanted Sermon by Rev. Rubin Lacy
Bakersfield, California - 1967
Adapted by Dahlov Ipcar © 1974
Further adapted by Charlie Ipcar, 1993)

They tell me in the morning,
When the horses come out the door,
They'll be standing there a-waiting,
To see the generals they been fighting for.

First come a rider on a red horse,
His armor shining in the sun,
A flaming sword in his hand,
His helmet a Gatling-gun ?
The face of War.

Under his horse's hoofs,
The dead and dying,
Trampled in the sand,
Bodies torn by grenades,
Shattered by shrapnel,
Rot in no man?s land ?
But with visions of victory in their eyes.

Refrain:

And I hear a voice a-crying,
"Is that the general we been fighting for?"
And I hear a voice answer,
"Yes, that's the general you been fighting for."

Next come a rider on a black horse,
His body all covered with sores,
Reeking of gangrene,
From his nose and ears blood pours ?
The face of Pestilence.

Under his horse's hoofs,
The sick and the dying,
People too weak to crawl,
Bodies wracked with pain,
Vomiting black blood,
For mercy they do call ?
The madness of fever in their eyes.

Refrain:
Then, out come a rider on a white horse,
His body all covered with flies,
Thin and gaunt and haggard,
Rotting teeth and bloodshot eyes ?
The face of Famine.

Under his horse's hoofs,
Children with swollen bellies,
Pipestem arms and legs;
Across the blackened fields,
Mothers with outstretched hands,
For bread and water beg ?
The madness of starvation in their eyes.

Refrain:

At last, come a rider on a pale horse,
His body but a rack of bone,
Slashing a scythe left and right,
Eyes like balls of fire in a head of stone ?
The face of Death.

And under his horse's hoofs,
Desolation and destruction,
On the face of the earth;
Gravestones and dry bones crackling,
Black ashes swept up in the wind,
None left to mourn or curse ?
The madness of another great victory.

Refrain:

And I hear a voice a-crying,
"Is that the general we been fighting for?"
And I hear another voice answer,
"Yes, that's the general you been fighting for."

Oh, Lord, let me go!
I can't make war no more;
Oh, Lord, let me go home in peace!
I seen the generals we been fighting for.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM

Yes!


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM

I do not know the song "Soldiers of the Queen", but there *is* a Kipling song "The Young British Soldier" in which "So-oldier _of_ the Queen!" is the last line of the refrain; perhaps there is some confusion with that. "The Young British Soldier", however, does not monger war; it takes war for granted & gives sage advice on how to survive it where possible. It last stanza was much quoted on Usenet a couple of years ago, in no very jingoistic spirit:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,...


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Subject: Lyr Add: LADDIES WHO FOUGHT AND WON (Harry Lauder)
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM

Harry Lauder sang



D
There's a dear old lady, Mother Britain is her name,
                G                   A7
And she's all the world to me.

She's a dear old soul, always the same,
      D          G       A7
With a heart as big as three.
                D
And when troubles and trials are knocking at her door,
       G                     A7
And the day seems dark and long,

Her sons on the land and her sons on the sea,
         D       G    A7
They all march to this song,

Chorus

D                                                
When the fighting is over, and the war is won,
                           G       A7
And the flags are waving free,
When the bells are ringing, and the boys are singing
D             G   A7
songs of victory
               D
When we all gather 'round the old fireside,
                                             A7
And the old mother kisses her son,
D                              G                  D
A' the lassies will be loving all the laddies,
                         A7          D
The laddies who fought and won.

Verse 2

We can all look back to the history of the past,
That made us what we are.
We have pledged our word we all shall hold fast,
Be the day away so far.
And till that time comes, let us fight and fight,
Let us fight till victory is won.
we will never give in, we are out to win,
To the very last man and gun.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:01 PM

Acourse Warmongering is good or bad depending on which side you are on.

William Morris in 'March of the Workers' sings...

Is it war then will ye perish as the dry wood in the fire
is it peace then be ye of us let your hope be our desire
come and live for life awaketh and the world shall never tire
and the host comes marching on.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 09:52 AM

There's a bit of confusion here. If you're talking about songs that support an existing war, there are hundreds of thousands of them; songs promoting a war that isn't presently existing are rarer (and, IMO, more interesting).
            I've noticed that, quite often, the same people sang songs on both sides of the pro- and anti-war line.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM

Ooops ! I stand corrected over "Soldiers of the Queen". Appologies !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Alanabit, that would be "seemed to like". Those songs are all very Victorian parlour songs, and of their time. Rather like the nasty little C&W song that came out not long after 9/11 promoting stomping the Ayrabs was very much of its social class (ie. dumb rednecks) and of its time. Thank God, I've not wasted brain cells remembering who wrote it or how it went.

Most English people today aren't fond of war and would rather not get dragged into any more. Incidentally, "Rule Britannia" is one of the rare songs glorifying a country *without* mentioning war.

My personal unfavourites are ones promoting bigotry against another country/race/whatever. "Come out you Black and Tans" is about as unpleasant as they come, but typical of the genre.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:17 PM

Good point Graham, but I think it's a bit of a moot point as to whether "Rule Britannia" doesn't mention war. At the very least I would call it an anthem to Britain's naval power in a bygone age. The line about it being, "the dread and envy of them all," can be read as a hint of the consequences of taking too many liberties with the Royal Navy! Strangely enough, I like the song, though that may have something to do with my formative years at The Royal Hospital School, Holbrook and origins in a naval family. It has got a thumping good tune. I just find it a little embarrassing to hear it sung by football crowds, who usually seem unaware that the tide of history has turned a little!


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM

Rule Britannia is pretty gung-ho all right, a bit of a technicality to say it is not actually about war. It is couched in fiarly self-defense sort of turns, but the arly part of the song is basicaaly saying that no tyrants will ever succede in conquering Britannia,`because the navy will get the bastards before they get here. Which is a reasonable distillation of a thousand years of foreign policy, driven by the embarrassment of William the Conqueror's easy ride.
   BUt a little later in the song we can find the lines:
"All thine shall be the subject main
And every shore it circles thine".
Now, the "thine" here is Britannia, and "the main" is the sea.. There is no conceivable interpretation of this sentiment except the obvious: the author wishes Britain to conquer every bit of the world accessible from the sea(which, let's face it, is pretty much what happened in the century following the wirting of that song). I think it's a great song. But I have to add that that doesnt mean I literally think we should go out and conquer all the fuzzy-wuzzies again.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM

And two of the most stirring: "Lock the Door, Lariston" (rec. by the Corries) and "O'Donnell Aboo" (rec. by Clancy Bros & Tommy Makem).


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:37 PM

Fair points, alanabit and Greg. Yes, it is promoting the might of a nation that *can* kick ass if it has to, it's just not promoting the kicking of any particular ass, or the act of kicking ass. :-)

Re the "all thine shall be the subject main" though, at the time Britain really was setting itself up as the policeman of the world, so I read that more in the lines of pacifying and de-pirating. Although I guess "pacifying" is a moot point - more than a few "destroy the village to save it" exercises...

Thing is though, the Brits back then really did see Britain as the world's policeman, in exactly the same way as many Americans think of the US today. The parallels are (ahem) unparalleled. ;-) As more than one person has pointed out, these kind of songs tend to come from the people sat safely at home, so they're a good indication of what the national mood was at the time.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM

While speaking of Irish warmongering songs:


The time has scarce gone by boys, two hundred years ago,
When Rebels on old Derry's Walls their faces dare not show;
When James and all his rebel band came up to Bishops Gate;
With heart and hand and sword and shield we caused them to retreat;

Chorus
Then work and don't surrender but come when duty calls,
With heart and hand, and sword and shield - we'll guard old Derry's Walls.

The blood it did flow in the streams for many a winter's night,
They knew the Lord was on their side, to help them in the fight;
They only stood upon the walls determined for to fight,
To fight and gain the victory and hoist the Crimson high;

and

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name
We'll raise on the rebels and Frenchmen our fame;
We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause,
And guard our religion, our freedom and laws;
We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause,
And guard our religion our freedom and laws;
We'll fight for our country, our King and his crown,
And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.

and the more recent

Sunday morning go for a ride
Took along my Colt .45
Went down to Derry, just for a lark
Knew I'd get a tadg before dark....


The warmongering was also in the hands of the Orange.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:23 PM

I vaguely remember a warsong from World War II that had the phrase "Give 'em the whole nine yards." Does anyone here know that tune? Does anyone here know what that means? I think it is a reference to American football, but you have to go the full ten yards in four plays to keep the ball in that game.
Peter


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM

IIRC nine yards was the total length of the amunition belts in a P-47 Thunderbolt.

Any 'Catters know better ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:53 PM

Do you have the song Gareth?

Peter


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM

The whole 9 yards has nothing to do with football or other sports. As Gareth says it's the typical length of a machine gun belt. I'm not sure if the expression is unique to P-47's. It may go back to WWI war birds.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:37 PM

That's very interesting about the 9 yards, Gareth. I think I'd always imagined it some sort of baseball or football obscure Americanism. Is the machine-gun explanation generally accepted? Yards seems an odd unit to measure the length of ammo belts in, but maybe 27 feet is a bit unwieldy.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 08:12 PM

"The whole 9 yards" is an expression that has generated a spate of speculative fakelore. The numbr of yards in a bolt of brocade. The number of yards (cubic yards) commonly carried in a Redi-Mix cement mixer. any others?

And to return to war mongering, take a look at "Universal Pacifist" in DigiTrad. Politically incorrect, but well constructed.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM

LadyJean - 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM,

Although "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" is definitely a song about the Black Watch the chorus of the song puts it after the period your re-enactors are interested in.

"And it's over the mountains and over the main.
Through Gibraltar to France and Spain.
Wi' a feather in your bonnet and yer kilt aboon yer knee
Enlist ma bonnie laddie and come awa wi' me."

The Black Watch, or 42nd Regiment of Foot, did not confront any Spanish Forces until the French Revolutionary War with Britain (1793 - 1802).

Rapaire - 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM,

"God Save The King (Queen)" - A warmongering song? Hardly, it was written at the time of the '45' Rebellion - i.e. Britain was under attack. I have always thought that the activity of 'warmongering' involved the element of provoking and actively pursuing picking a fight - not that of attempting to inspire defence against an attack.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:39 AM

In which case, Teribus, the "Star Spangled Banner" fails to qualify as a war-mongering song since it was written DURING the attack on Ft. McHenry in Baltimore Harbor during the War of 1812.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:12 AM

Rapaire - couldn't agree with you more.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:37 PM

My Dad built P-38's and P-39's during the second war. He always said that Nine Yards was the length of a belt load of air craft machine gun rounds.

Don


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 07:19 PM

Somewhere in the back of my mind there is a vague song about this "9 Yards" but where and when I do not recall.

But a bit of Maths - US of Fghters WWII (Persuit =P) fired an 0.5 inch round, given the chamfer on the cartridge casing, and the joining links I would suspect One inch or possibly less per cartridege

Thus 1 yard = say 40 rounds.

9 yards = 360 rounds

Now a quickish Internet search Click 'Ere and scroll sugests that the P47 had an amunition capacity of 350 Pounds per gun.

Mathematics suggests that 8 x 360 = 2880 pounds or nearly 1.25 imperial tons. Hmmm ! I dont think so, this represents a substantial percentage of the aircraft weight.

Cut and paste from link -

empty weight            2,600 kilograms    5,730 pounds
   loaded weight          3,540 kilograms    7,800 pounds


Leaving no weight for Pilot, Gasoline, Oil, Oxygen etc


But 350 rounds suggests about 9 yards.

I do not claim that this origin of the phrase is correct. But it's room for thought.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Stewie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:40 AM

Ferrara, I would be very interested in sighting the 'strong evidence' that 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home' predated 'Johnny I Hardly Knew You'.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM

In WWII MG belts for aircraft were measured exclusively by number of rounds. not by the length in yards. Waist-gun ammo bins aboard B-24s, for example, bore the stencil "Rounds available at this station." Before being fed into a gun, the belt was stowed in folded layers in the bin. The wooden bin had a hole corresponding to each layer of the folded belt so that the number of layers still available was easily visible to the gunner. In increments of 100, each hole indicated the number of rounds, not feet or yards, remaining on the belt.

I don't believe that any military pilot, then or now, would have been likely to talk about "the whole nine yards" in connection with bursts fired from MG belts. "Used up all 300 (or however many) rounds" was the usual idiom.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:35 AM

Stewie, I think I read it on Mudcat, and to my amusement, I did a search on "comes marching home" and found:

"0.8169 - Thread - Message - RE: When Johnnie comes marching home - Jan 16 2000 7:14PM -   Stewie

    Summary: It is interesting that the Traditional Ballad Index researcher speculates that 'Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl', which shares the tune, probably came first. Scholars continue to argue whether "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" or the doleful "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" is the original. "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" can be firmly dated to the beginning of the Civil War, while "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" does not appear until slightly later (1869) -- but as a traditional song."

... Looks as if it was your post????? Ah well. I didn't go back and read the whole thread. So the "strong evidence" was apparently just your dating of the two songs unless there's more in the thread. Glad you challenged what I said.

Rita F


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:21 PM

As far as I know, MG ammo is still measured by rounds, not length. You might carry a 250 round "belly bag" of 7.62 mm ammo, or a belt of 100 rounds of .30 caliber. I never heard of someone asking for, say, 3 meters of 7.62. Someone might have done so, jokingly, in the same way we once went to the store and ordered a "yard of rope sausauge."

Speaking as a former grunt (and I'm sure airmen felt and feel the same way), I'd much rather know that I had 200 rounds than 5 yards of bullets remaining.

The expression could have come from the ammunition industry, back when cloth belts instead of "disappearing links" were used to MG ammo, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Stewie
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM

Thanks, Ferrara. I had forgotten about that quote from the Ballad Index. Despite my comment to the anonymous poster in that thread, I must agree that 'Watz's' 'guess' hardly constitutes 'strong evidence'.

Cheers, Stewie.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:03 PM

I'll put in additionally that in my own limited experience (we do live in a big country) the expression "the whole nine yards" came into use in the 1960s. This might have some bearing on its origin, though I cannot say what!

Rapaire, army grunts in the old days were known as "dogfaces." Wartime or peacetime, you have my respect and thanks.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,sing2all
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM

Stumbled on this 'chat' by doing a Google search for the history of "Over the Hills and Far Away". To support Greg's statement, the following is from the libretto.... (Sorry for the intrusion.)

POLLY. Were you sentenc'd to Transportation, sure, my Dear, you could not leave me behind you----could you?
MACHEATH. Is there any Power, any Force that could tear me from thee? You might sooner tear a Pension out of the hands of a Courtier, a Fee from a Lawyer, a pretty Woman from a Looking-glass, or any Woman from Quadrille. ----But to tear me from thee is impossible!

                     Air XVI.--Over the Hills and far away.

MACHEATH.
"Were I laid on Greenland's Coast,
And in my Arms embrac'd my Lass;
Warm amidst eternal Frost,
Too soon the Half Year's Night would pass.

POLLY.
Were I sold on Indian Soil,
Soon as the burning Day was clos'd,
I could mock the sultry Toil
When on my Charmer's Breast repos'd.

MACHEATH.
And I would love you all the Day,

POLLY.
Every Night would kiss and play,

MACHEATH.
If with me you'd fondly stray

POLLY.
Over the Hills and far away. "

POLLY. Yes, I would go with thee. But oh!----how shall I speak it? I must be torn from thee. We must part.

MACHEATH. How! Part!

POLLY. We must, we must.----My Papa and Mama are set against thy Life. They now, even now are in Search after thee. They are preparing Evidence against thee. Thy Life depends upon a moment.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,sing2all
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

Before I post on this board, can someone please tell me what the original topic was? War songs? Songs that perpetuated war? Please clarify this for me?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM

When I originally began this thread, my intentions were to discuss songs that instigated and inspired war as opposed to songs that perpetuated and glorified it. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM

Over the Hills (not Gay's) isn't a warmongering song, but a recruiting ballad.
It's telling people leave your drab lives and take up a more glorious one, come travel see the world.


"Our 'prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel Master's Shoes,
For now he's free to sing and play
Over the Hills and far away.

We all shall lead more happy lives
By getting rid of brats and wives
That scold and bawl both night and day -
Over the Hills and far away."


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:25 PM

Forgot to mention it first appears in Farquhar's Recruiting Sergeant, a very popular musical comedy of the day.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

"Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour di gloire est arrive,
Contre nous de la tyrannie...
L'etendard sanglant est leve (x 2).
Entendez-vous dans campagnes.
Mugir ces feroces soldats?
Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras
Egorger vos fils, vos compagnes.
Aux armes, citoyens! Formez vos bataillons!
Marchez! Marchez! qu'un sang impur
A breuve nos silons."

From the Marseillaise - a bit grim, eh? (Great tune, though.)


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM

The Marseillaise is the perfect revolutionarysong I think, great for inspiring people. Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were....


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:44 PM

BTW has anyone tried singing it to the Blackadder theme?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

"Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were...."

I note that it's only "impure" blood. Good grief.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:19 PM

Right or wrong, is there a better rabble-rousing song?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jim Maffie
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Does anyone know the origins and name of a ditty about nineteenth-century British colonial forces in African that includes the lines, "In the end, we have the Gatling gun, and they do not"?

Thanks in advance,

Jim Maffie


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM

One time about 30 years ago now it must be I was at the The Old crown, Digbeth, and a young folksinger got up and gave us a rendition of The warwickshire RHA, which has the chorus

And when we get to france, me boys
the Kaiser he will say
Ach so! Mein Gott!
What a jolly fine lot!
are the Warwickshire RHA

This old guy suddenly stood up and proclaimed himself disgusted that a warwongering song should be sung in a folk club. he was howled down of course. I think somewhere along the line though, we must have lost a lot of the early peacenik/CND people who gave momentum to the folk revival in the early days. Almost without noticing it, we lost the wide focus that includes all reasonable and decent idealisms.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM

I am surprised at his reaction.
It is a soldiers' song but not one that relishes killing.
Stolen by the IRA as one of the gentlest of rebel songs.
There were lots of jingoistic songs coming out of the music halls but they don't seem to have been taken up much by the soldiery.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: whozit
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Hey! How about the battle cry "We're gonna Rock Iraq!"

I'll bet you some G.I. penned something over there with that phrase.

War gets peoples dandruffs up and that can be a good atmosphere for writing anything.

Remember that the Anti-War Movement of the 60's was basically a War At Home.

War is basically the fighting for or against what people percieve to be justice or injustice.

I understand that the Protest song is making a comeback.

Where and Why?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM

There is not a folksinger worthy of the name who doesn't know lots of pro-war songs. They range from the racially motivated Arkansas 1st variation of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, to the blood thirsty "One Sunday Mornin', While On My Way To Mass", to the official "Star Spangled Banner" to the comical "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball" (to the tune of "Col. Bogey's March") and "'Round and around Hitler's Grave".
Most patriotic songs are connected to wars and were used to motivate the populace. In the American Civil War, Union troops marched to "Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys" and Confederate soldiers used "Bonny Blue Flag". George M. Cohan's "Over There" was as official a fighting anthem as ever was. I have done school assembly programs on the connection between war and songs. Believe me, for every anti-war song like "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", there are hundreds like "The Battle of New Orleans".

                  Mike


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

Not in Britain though.
We have some 19th century songs like that but none from 20th Century.
The most warlike song from WW2 was probably, "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried line, have you any dirty washing mother dear?"


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

To paraphrase: How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: stallion
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM

comming in on a wing and a prayer
Sahagun
Bang on the Big drum
Legion of the Rearguard
Black Douglas
One and all
British Light infantry song


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM

The Varshavyanka has a complicated history, starting off as a Polish patriotic song, but in its Russian version, which was used in the 1905 uprising, it rivals the Marseillaise in bloodthirstiness. The last stanza goes

Nam nenavistny tiranov korony, Tsepi naroda stradaltsa my chtim. Krov'yu narodnoy oblityye trony My krov'yu nashikh vragov ubagrim.

The crowns of the tyrants are hateful to us; The chains of the martyr people we revere. Thrones that are spattered with the people's blood, We will soak with the blood of our enemies.

The chorus climaxes with

Na boy krovavy, Svyatyy i pravy, Marsh, marsh, vperyod, Rabochiy narod!

On to the bloody battle, Holy and righteous, March, march forward, Working people!

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: Frightened people tend to the kinds of stupidity that are helpful in being mean. :||


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM

I see someone posted the Mareilleaise. Appropriate fpo Ju;ly 14. I have encountered a perfectly horrible song called "Haji Girl" About an American soldier killing an Iraqi girl and her family. I'm trying to type this with a cat's tail in my face.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

My Grandad used to sing one called The baby's name, which listed all the Boer War English Commanders.

later I heard Cosmotheka do it.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM

"...Then conquer we must
If the cause it is just
And this be our motto
In God is our trust..."


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM

Dick Greenhaus: Well, yes, but the context is defensive. The preceding lines are: Oh, thus be it e'er when free men shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation. Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Likewise Die Wacht am Rhein. And the notorious Deutschland 쳌über Alles, if you actually read the words, turns out to be sentimental rather than imperialistic. Germany is above all in our hearts because of its wine, women, & song.

Fair's fair.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: We're not free; we're just at large. :||


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM

Joe, all war songs are noble and defensive. Just ask the combatants. If there is one thing that history teaches us it is the remarkable similarity of wars.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM

December seventh nineteen-hundred and forty-one
Our land of freedom was defied
December eighth nineteen-hundred and forty-one
Uncle Sam replied.
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We've got a heck of a job to do
But you can bet we'll see it thru.
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We're one for all and all for one
They'll get a licking before we're done
Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We'll knock them over and then we'll get the guy in back of them
We did it before, we'll do it again

We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again, we'll take the nip out of Nipponese
and chase them back to the cherry trees
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
When we get going and start to click
We'll put the ax in the axis quick
Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
This country never has lost a war since days of William Penn
We did it before, we'll do it again

Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
And even though it may take a year
or two or five or ten
We did it before, we'll do it all over again


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: toadfrog
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM

Well, I think a lot of people are saying, songs in favor of your cause are bloody and awful, songs in favor of my cause are noble and patriotic. I know the words to "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles," and I also know where they came from (in 1830). There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those words, which were "liberal" words until Hitler adopted them--Deutschland, Deutschland was not the imperial anthem. It was first adopted by the Weimar Republic

Try these for bloody words:
I'll sing you a song of about the town,
How the green flag went up and the Crown rag went down!
'Twas the neatest and sweetest that ever you saw,
And they play the best game played in Erin go bragh!

....

A young Cockney sergeant was yelling that day,
Just give us one hour and I'll blow you away!
But a big Mauser bullet got stuck in his craw,
And he died of lead poisoning and Erin go bragh!

Now, I think those are bloody-minded lyrics. But I bet some people would differ, on the ground the 1916 Easter Rebellion was noble. So it all depends on whose ox is being gored.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 AM

"Twa Recruitin Sergeants" comes across as less of a recruiting song than a protest about the awfulness of an agricultural worker's life. The glory of the proposed alternative doesn't really feature.

Thurston Clarke's book "Blood and Fire", about the Zionists bombing the King David Hotel, takes its title from a recruiting song of the Irgun, about how Israel would "rise in blood and fire". Anybody got that one, or similar early Zionist ones?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: reggie miles
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Funny you should ask for such in this thread. This one is the title cut of one of my 2008 releases. If you like, you can listen to it on the player on my MySpace page.
http://www.myspace.com/reggiemiles

War Mongerin' Man Reggie Miles © 2008

It's a cold, cold wind that blows no good
An evil seed that's growin' in our neighborhood
With a twisted soul, and tortured mind
And no love for his own kind
Too blind to see the things he should

Only the sound of gold ringing in his ears
Drowning out the cries of those whose lives are filled with tears
His deaf and dumb predisposition
Gives me a strong suspicion
Avarice is his sole mission around here

With every word he tries to convolute
Nothing is so sacred that his lies will not pollute
Disinformation is his tool
Playin' everybody for the fool
Is his only golden rule absolute

Have you felt the darkness spread,
Or heard the truth subverted by what he said?
A glad hand and a smile
Is his deceptive style
All the while he's a wishin' you were dead

Have you seen that war mongerin' man?
Have you seen the fruits of his labor across this land?
Have you ever wondered why?
He'll kiss your baby then he'll spit in your eye.
It's all a part of his master plan


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:18 AM

Woody Guthrie is credited with writing "Reuben James" - rousin American sentiment against the sinking of the ship by the Nazi Germans before WWII:

Have you heard of the ship
called the good Reuben James?
Armed of hard fighting men, both of honor and of fame,
She flew the Stars and Stripes of the Land of the Free,
But tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

One hundred men went down to their dark and watery grave,
When that good ship went down, only fourty-four were saved.
Was the last day of October, they saved fourty-four,
From the dark icy waters of that cold Iceland shore.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

It was there in the dark on that cold and watery night,
They watched for the U-Boat and they waited for a fight,
Then a whine and a rock and a great explosion roared,
They lay the Reuben James on the cold ocean floor.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

Many years have passed since those brave men are gone,
Those cold icy waters, they're still and they're calm,
Many years have passed, and still I wonder why,
That the worst of men must fight and the best of men must die.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Tell me, tell, me, tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

And another one I heard tonight (by the wonderful Andres Mustonen and Hortus Musicus): Walther van der Vogelweide's "Palestine Song", a.k.a. "Nu alrest lebe ich mir werde". We got two verses. It's such a beautiful tune you'd think you'd get a lot more, but nobody ever sings the whole thing, for good reason. It was written around 1204 as a recruiting song for the Fourth Crusade. There are about 30 verses in all, starting in a tone of mystical exaltation at the prospect of being a pilgrim setting foot in the Holy Land for the first time (this being the bit people sing these days) and ending with "sock it to them fuckin towelheads" in Old High German. With, I think, "let's sort out the Christ-killers" in between. It seems to have been one of the most politically effective songs in history.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

For jingoistic boasting, the (U.S.) Marines' Hymn is a good specimen. I believe it has been toned down a bit, but it used to end

If the army and the navy
Ever look on heaven's scenes,
They will find that country occupied
By United States Marines.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 10:44 PM

I just skimmed through this again to see if anyone had provided the words for "Remember Pearl Harbor," and didn't see them, so here they are:

History
In every century
Records an act that lives forever more
We'll recall
As into line we fall
The thing that happened on Hawaii's shore

Let's remember Pearl Harbor
As we go to meet the foe
Let's remember Pearl Harbor
As they did the Alamo
We will always remember
How they died for liberty
Let's remember Pearl Harbor
And go on to victory


It's not exactly let's go out and kick some ass because we're superior, but it is a call to battle, all right. Now it is also interesting that the Project for a New American Century, in describing how the US government might take power over the Middle East and its oil (and thus, essentially, the world) said something to the effect that the government, in order to justify the militarization of US society required by that goal, might need "a new Pearl Harbor" as justification... conveniently for that point of view, 9/11/2001 was just a couple of years in the future.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 01:09 PM

Joe, see this thread: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6315#2402837

And scroll down to Aug. 8, 2008.

The lines you quote are new to me.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:31 PM

I have seen the stanza I quoted in print, with "that country occupied" replaced by "the streets are guarded"; it is also in the version in the DigiTrad. I heard the original from my mother, and I imagine she learned it from one of her older brothers. That would place it around W.W. I.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 07:30 PM

Google turns up no further exx. of your version, Joe. It may not have been terribly well known. Certainly the Marines were doing a lot of occupying in Central America and the Caribbean in the 1920s. Thanks for posting it.

Oscar Brand published a verse about "We fight for U.S. Steel and the oil fields of John D." Another little-known parody.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

Here's Pete Jagger War Monger Blair


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Wotcha in Italia - PM
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM
And don't forget "Over the Hills and Far Away ..." from the Beggars' Opera.
"Come Enlist and March I say
And go over the hills and far away ..."
======================

This is not in fact the Beggars' Opera version of "Over the Hills", which begins "Were I laid on Greenland's Coast", but another version to a related but not identical tune.

~Michael~

Bit late to make a correction, I know, but, in interests of accuracy, better late...


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:49 PM

With the help of Harvard's Widener Library, which has *two* copies of _Rhymes of the Rookies_, I looked up the earliest printed source of the Marines' Hymn. Sure enough, it has the line in its diplomatic form, "They will find the streets are guarded". It is clear that "They will find that country occupied" is spurious. My guess is that it was made up, pretty early on, by overeager Marines.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

For the earliest appearance of the hymn, see my Aug. 2008 post on this thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=6315#2402837


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:59 PM

It's a bit late, considering the duration of this thread, but if anyone wants to know about the background of "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye", and "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" Jon Lighter has recently published a thorough and a very well researched study of the origins of both songs. It's the first of a series of "Occasional Papers on Folklore" (CAMSCO Music) and is titled "The Best Anti-war Song Ever Written"
$9.95 (+$2.50 S&H)


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kickin-Hitlers-Butt-Anti-Fascist-1940-1944/dp/B000NDDU60

There's some great WWII examples on this 2007 compilation.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: PHJim
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 07:45 PM

Graham said above, "My personal unfavourites are ones promoting bigotry against another country/race/whatever. "Come out you Black and Tans" is about as unpleasant as they come, but typical of the genre."

It's typical of the genre because a soldier would have difficulty killing an enemy if he thought of him as just another guy, with a wife and kids at home, who was drafted into the services. The enemy must be dehumanized, therefore bigotry is encouraged. Call the Germans "Krauts", the Japanese "Nips", the Vietnamese "Gooks", the Afghans "Ragheads"... and they seem less than human and easier to kill.


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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 07:51 PM

GUEST,Jim Maffie - PM
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM
Does anyone know the origins and name of a ditty about nineteenth-century British colonial forces in African that includes the lines, "In the end, we have the Gatling gun, and they do not"?


A bit late, but that's not unusual with us here on the Mudcat. It's not in any way a warmongering ditty, but an extract from Hilaire Belloc's Modern Traveller, which is a very funny attack on the whole myth of British Imperialism, written at it's height. (And it's a Maxim, not a Gatlin)

Blood understood knew the native mind;
He said you must be firm, but kind.
A mutiny resulted.
I shall never forget the way
That Blood stood upon this awful day
Preserved us all from death.
He stood upon a little mound
Cast his lethargic eyes around,
And said beneath his breath:
'Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim Gun, and they have not.'


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