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War Mongering Songs
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: greg stephens Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM Rule Britannia is pretty gung-ho all right, a bit of a technicality to say it is not actually about war. It is couched in fiarly self-defense sort of turns, but the arly part of the song is basicaaly saying that no tyrants will ever succede in conquering Britannia,`because the navy will get the bastards before they get here. Which is a reasonable distillation of a thousand years of foreign policy, driven by the embarrassment of William the Conqueror's easy ride. BUt a little later in the song we can find the lines: "All thine shall be the subject main And every shore it circles thine". Now, the "thine" here is Britannia, and "the main" is the sea.. There is no conceivable interpretation of this sentiment except the obvious: the author wishes Britain to conquer every bit of the world accessible from the sea(which, let's face it, is pretty much what happened in the century following the wirting of that song). I think it's a great song. But I have to add that that doesnt mean I literally think we should go out and conquer all the fuzzy-wuzzies again. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM And two of the most stirring: "Lock the Door, Lariston" (rec. by the Corries) and "O'Donnell Aboo" (rec. by Clancy Bros & Tommy Makem). |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Grab Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:37 PM Fair points, alanabit and Greg. Yes, it is promoting the might of a nation that *can* kick ass if it has to, it's just not promoting the kicking of any particular ass, or the act of kicking ass. :-) Re the "all thine shall be the subject main" though, at the time Britain really was setting itself up as the policeman of the world, so I read that more in the lines of pacifying and de-pirating. Although I guess "pacifying" is a moot point - more than a few "destroy the village to save it" exercises... Thing is though, the Brits back then really did see Britain as the world's policeman, in exactly the same way as many Americans think of the US today. The parallels are (ahem) unparalleled. ;-) As more than one person has pointed out, these kind of songs tend to come from the people sat safely at home, so they're a good indication of what the national mood was at the time. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM While speaking of Irish warmongering songs: The time has scarce gone by boys, two hundred years ago, When Rebels on old Derry's Walls their faces dare not show; When James and all his rebel band came up to Bishops Gate; With heart and hand and sword and shield we caused them to retreat; Chorus Then work and don't surrender but come when duty calls, With heart and hand, and sword and shield - we'll guard old Derry's Walls. The blood it did flow in the streams for many a winter's night, They knew the Lord was on their side, to help them in the fight; They only stood upon the walls determined for to fight, To fight and gain the victory and hoist the Crimson high; and We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name We'll raise on the rebels and Frenchmen our fame; We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause, And guard our religion, our freedom and laws; We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause, And guard our religion our freedom and laws; We'll fight for our country, our King and his crown, And make all the traitors and croppies lie down. and the more recent Sunday morning go for a ride Took along my Colt .45 Went down to Derry, just for a lark Knew I'd get a tadg before dark.... The warmongering was also in the hands of the Orange. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:23 PM I vaguely remember a warsong from World War II that had the phrase "Give 'em the whole nine yards." Does anyone here know that tune? Does anyone here know what that means? I think it is a reference to American football, but you have to go the full ten yards in four plays to keep the ball in that game. Peter |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Gareth Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM IIRC nine yards was the total length of the amunition belts in a P-47 Thunderbolt. Any 'Catters know better ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:53 PM Do you have the song Gareth? Peter |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM The whole 9 yards has nothing to do with football or other sports. As Gareth says it's the typical length of a machine gun belt. I'm not sure if the expression is unique to P-47's. It may go back to WWI war birds. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: greg stephens Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:37 PM That's very interesting about the 9 yards, Gareth. I think I'd always imagined it some sort of baseball or football obscure Americanism. Is the machine-gun explanation generally accepted? Yards seems an odd unit to measure the length of ammo belts in, but maybe 27 feet is a bit unwieldy. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: dick greenhaus Date: 28 Jun 04 - 08:12 PM "The whole 9 yards" is an expression that has generated a spate of speculative fakelore. The numbr of yards in a bolt of brocade. The number of yards (cubic yards) commonly carried in a Redi-Mix cement mixer. any others? And to return to war mongering, take a look at "Universal Pacifist" in DigiTrad. Politically incorrect, but well constructed. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Teribus Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM LadyJean - 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM, Although "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" is definitely a song about the Black Watch the chorus of the song puts it after the period your re-enactors are interested in. "And it's over the mountains and over the main. Through Gibraltar to France and Spain. Wi' a feather in your bonnet and yer kilt aboon yer knee Enlist ma bonnie laddie and come awa wi' me." The Black Watch, or 42nd Regiment of Foot, did not confront any Spanish Forces until the French Revolutionary War with Britain (1793 - 1802). Rapaire - 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM, "God Save The King (Queen)" - A warmongering song? Hardly, it was written at the time of the '45' Rebellion - i.e. Britain was under attack. I have always thought that the activity of 'warmongering' involved the element of provoking and actively pursuing picking a fight - not that of attempting to inspire defence against an attack. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Rapparee Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:39 AM In which case, Teribus, the "Star Spangled Banner" fails to qualify as a war-mongering song since it was written DURING the attack on Ft. McHenry in Baltimore Harbor during the War of 1812. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Teribus Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:12 AM Rapaire - couldn't agree with you more. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: DonMeixner Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:37 PM My Dad built P-38's and P-39's during the second war. He always said that Nine Yards was the length of a belt load of air craft machine gun rounds. Don |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Gareth Date: 29 Jun 04 - 07:19 PM Somewhere in the back of my mind there is a vague song about this "9 Yards" but where and when I do not recall. But a bit of Maths - US of Fghters WWII (Persuit =P) fired an 0.5 inch round, given the chamfer on the cartridge casing, and the joining links I would suspect One inch or possibly less per cartridege Thus 1 yard = say 40 rounds. 9 yards = 360 rounds Now a quickish Internet search Click 'Ere and scroll sugests that the P47 had an amunition capacity of 350 Pounds per gun. Mathematics suggests that 8 x 360 = 2880 pounds or nearly 1.25 imperial tons. Hmmm ! I dont think so, this represents a substantial percentage of the aircraft weight. Cut and paste from link - empty weight 2,600 kilograms 5,730 pounds loaded weight 3,540 kilograms 7,800 pounds Leaving no weight for Pilot, Gasoline, Oil, Oxygen etc But 350 rounds suggests about 9 yards. I do not claim that this origin of the phrase is correct. But it's room for thought. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Stewie Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:40 AM Ferrara, I would be very interested in sighting the 'strong evidence' that 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home' predated 'Johnny I Hardly Knew You'. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM In WWII MG belts for aircraft were measured exclusively by number of rounds. not by the length in yards. Waist-gun ammo bins aboard B-24s, for example, bore the stencil "Rounds available at this station." Before being fed into a gun, the belt was stowed in folded layers in the bin. The wooden bin had a hole corresponding to each layer of the folded belt so that the number of layers still available was easily visible to the gunner. In increments of 100, each hole indicated the number of rounds, not feet or yards, remaining on the belt. I don't believe that any military pilot, then or now, would have been likely to talk about "the whole nine yards" in connection with bursts fired from MG belts. "Used up all 300 (or however many) rounds" was the usual idiom. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Ferrara Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:35 AM Stewie, I think I read it on Mudcat, and to my amusement, I did a search on "comes marching home" and found: "0.8169 - Thread - Message - RE: When Johnnie comes marching home - Jan 16 2000 7:14PM - Stewie Summary: It is interesting that the Traditional Ballad Index researcher speculates that 'Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl', which shares the tune, probably came first. Scholars continue to argue whether "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" or the doleful "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" is the original. "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" can be firmly dated to the beginning of the Civil War, while "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" does not appear until slightly later (1869) -- but as a traditional song." ... Looks as if it was your post????? Ah well. I didn't go back and read the whole thread. So the "strong evidence" was apparently just your dating of the two songs unless there's more in the thread. Glad you challenged what I said. Rita F |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:21 PM As far as I know, MG ammo is still measured by rounds, not length. You might carry a 250 round "belly bag" of 7.62 mm ammo, or a belt of 100 rounds of .30 caliber. I never heard of someone asking for, say, 3 meters of 7.62. Someone might have done so, jokingly, in the same way we once went to the store and ordered a "yard of rope sausauge." Speaking as a former grunt (and I'm sure airmen felt and feel the same way), I'd much rather know that I had 200 rounds than 5 yards of bullets remaining. The expression could have come from the ammunition industry, back when cloth belts instead of "disappearing links" were used to MG ammo, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Stewie Date: 01 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM Thanks, Ferrara. I had forgotten about that quote from the Ballad Index. Despite my comment to the anonymous poster in that thread, I must agree that 'Watz's' 'guess' hardly constitutes 'strong evidence'. Cheers, Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:03 PM I'll put in additionally that in my own limited experience (we do live in a big country) the expression "the whole nine yards" came into use in the 1960s. This might have some bearing on its origin, though I cannot say what! Rapaire, army grunts in the old days were known as "dogfaces." Wartime or peacetime, you have my respect and thanks. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,sing2all Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM Stumbled on this 'chat' by doing a Google search for the history of "Over the Hills and Far Away". To support Greg's statement, the following is from the libretto.... (Sorry for the intrusion.) POLLY. Were you sentenc'd to Transportation, sure, my Dear, you could not leave me behind you----could you? MACHEATH. Is there any Power, any Force that could tear me from thee? You might sooner tear a Pension out of the hands of a Courtier, a Fee from a Lawyer, a pretty Woman from a Looking-glass, or any Woman from Quadrille. ----But to tear me from thee is impossible! Air XVI.--Over the Hills and far away. MACHEATH. "Were I laid on Greenland's Coast, And in my Arms embrac'd my Lass; Warm amidst eternal Frost, Too soon the Half Year's Night would pass. POLLY. Were I sold on Indian Soil, Soon as the burning Day was clos'd, I could mock the sultry Toil When on my Charmer's Breast repos'd. MACHEATH. And I would love you all the Day, POLLY. Every Night would kiss and play, MACHEATH. If with me you'd fondly stray POLLY. Over the Hills and far away. " POLLY. Yes, I would go with thee. But oh!----how shall I speak it? I must be torn from thee. We must part. MACHEATH. How! Part! POLLY. We must, we must.----My Papa and Mama are set against thy Life. They now, even now are in Search after thee. They are preparing Evidence against thee. Thy Life depends upon a moment. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,sing2all Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM Before I post on this board, can someone please tell me what the original topic was? War songs? Songs that perpetuated war? Please clarify this for me? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 08 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM When I originally began this thread, my intentions were to discuss songs that instigated and inspired war as opposed to songs that perpetuated and glorified it. SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Allen Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM Over the Hills (not Gay's) isn't a warmongering song, but a recruiting ballad. It's telling people leave your drab lives and take up a more glorious one, come travel see the world. "Our 'prentice Tom may now refuse To wipe his scoundrel Master's Shoes, For now he's free to sing and play Over the Hills and far away. We all shall lead more happy lives By getting rid of brats and wives That scold and bawl both night and day - Over the Hills and far away." |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Allen Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:25 PM Forgot to mention it first appears in Farquhar's Recruiting Sergeant, a very popular musical comedy of the day. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM "Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour di gloire est arrive, Contre nous de la tyrannie... L'etendard sanglant est leve (x 2). Entendez-vous dans campagnes. Mugir ces feroces soldats? Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras Egorger vos fils, vos compagnes. Aux armes, citoyens! Formez vos bataillons! Marchez! Marchez! qu'un sang impur A breuve nos silons." From the Marseillaise - a bit grim, eh? (Great tune, though.) |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Allen Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM The Marseillaise is the perfect revolutionarysong I think, great for inspiring people. Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were.... |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Allen Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:44 PM BTW has anyone tried singing it to the Blackadder theme? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM "Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were...." I note that it's only "impure" blood. Good grief. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Allen Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:19 PM Right or wrong, is there a better rabble-rousing song? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Jim Maffie Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM Does anyone know the origins and name of a ditty about nineteenth-century British colonial forces in African that includes the lines, "In the end, we have the Gatling gun, and they do not"? Thanks in advance, Jim Maffie |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM One time about 30 years ago now it must be I was at the The Old crown, Digbeth, and a young folksinger got up and gave us a rendition of The warwickshire RHA, which has the chorus And when we get to france, me boys the Kaiser he will say Ach so! Mein Gott! What a jolly fine lot! are the Warwickshire RHA This old guy suddenly stood up and proclaimed himself disgusted that a warwongering song should be sung in a folk club. he was howled down of course. I think somewhere along the line though, we must have lost a lot of the early peacenik/CND people who gave momentum to the folk revival in the early days. Almost without noticing it, we lost the wide focus that includes all reasonable and decent idealisms. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM I am surprised at his reaction. It is a soldiers' song but not one that relishes killing. Stolen by the IRA as one of the gentlest of rebel songs. There were lots of jingoistic songs coming out of the music halls but they don't seem to have been taken up much by the soldiery. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: whozit Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM Hey! How about the battle cry "We're gonna Rock Iraq!" I'll bet you some G.I. penned something over there with that phrase. War gets peoples dandruffs up and that can be a good atmosphere for writing anything. Remember that the Anti-War Movement of the 60's was basically a War At Home. War is basically the fighting for or against what people percieve to be justice or injustice. I understand that the Protest song is making a comeback. Where and Why? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM There is not a folksinger worthy of the name who doesn't know lots of pro-war songs. They range from the racially motivated Arkansas 1st variation of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, to the blood thirsty "One Sunday Mornin', While On My Way To Mass", to the official "Star Spangled Banner" to the comical "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball" (to the tune of "Col. Bogey's March") and "'Round and around Hitler's Grave". Most patriotic songs are connected to wars and were used to motivate the populace. In the American Civil War, Union troops marched to "Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys" and Confederate soldiers used "Bonny Blue Flag". George M. Cohan's "Over There" was as official a fighting anthem as ever was. I have done school assembly programs on the connection between war and songs. Believe me, for every anti-war song like "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", there are hundreds like "The Battle of New Orleans". Mike |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM Not in Britain though. We have some 19th century songs like that but none from 20th Century. The most warlike song from WW2 was probably, "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried line, have you any dirty washing mother dear?" |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM To paraphrase: How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: stallion Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM comming in on a wing and a prayer Sahagun Bang on the Big drum Legion of the Rearguard Black Douglas One and all British Light infantry song |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM The Varshavyanka has a complicated history, starting off as a Polish patriotic song, but in its Russian version, which was used in the 1905 uprising, it rivals the Marseillaise in bloodthirstiness. The last stanza goes Nam nenavistny tiranov korony, Tsepi naroda stradaltsa my chtim. Krov'yu narodnoy oblityye trony My krov'yu nashikh vragov ubagrim. The crowns of the tyrants are hateful to us; The chains of the martyr people we revere. Thrones that are spattered with the people's blood, We will soak with the blood of our enemies. The chorus climaxes with Na boy krovavy, Svyatyy i pravy, Marsh, marsh, vperyod, Rabochiy narod! On to the bloody battle, Holy and righteous, March, march forward, Working people! --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Frightened people tend to the kinds of stupidity that are helpful in being mean. :|| |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: LadyJean Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM I see someone posted the Mareilleaise. Appropriate fpo Ju;ly 14. I have encountered a perfectly horrible song called "Haji Girl" About an American soldier killing an Iraqi girl and her family. I'm trying to type this with a cat's tail in my face. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM My Grandad used to sing one called The baby's name, which listed all the Boer War English Commanders. later I heard Cosmotheka do it. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM "...Then conquer we must If the cause it is just And this be our motto In God is our trust..." |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM Dick Greenhaus: Well, yes, but the context is defensive. The preceding lines are: Oh, thus be it e'er when free men shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation. Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Likewise Die Wacht am Rhein. And the notorious Deutschland 쳌über Alles, if you actually read the words, turns out to be sentimental rather than imperialistic. Germany is above all in our hearts because of its wine, women, & song. Fair's fair. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: We're not free; we're just at large. :|| |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM Joe, all war songs are noble and defensive. Just ask the combatants. If there is one thing that history teaches us it is the remarkable similarity of wars. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: robomatic Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM December seventh nineteen-hundred and forty-one Our land of freedom was defied December eighth nineteen-hundred and forty-one Uncle Sam replied. We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again We've got a heck of a job to do But you can bet we'll see it thru. We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again We're one for all and all for one They'll get a licking before we're done Millions of voices are ringing Singing as we march along We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again We'll knock them over and then we'll get the guy in back of them We did it before, we'll do it again We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again, we'll take the nip out of Nipponese and chase them back to the cherry trees We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again When we get going and start to click We'll put the ax in the axis quick Millions of voices are ringing Singing as we march along We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again This country never has lost a war since days of William Penn We did it before, we'll do it again Millions of voices are ringing Singing as we march along We did it before and we can do it again And we will do it again And even though it may take a year or two or five or ten We did it before, we'll do it all over again |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: toadfrog Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM Well, I think a lot of people are saying, songs in favor of your cause are bloody and awful, songs in favor of my cause are noble and patriotic. I know the words to "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles," and I also know where they came from (in 1830). There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those words, which were "liberal" words until Hitler adopted them--Deutschland, Deutschland was not the imperial anthem. It was first adopted by the Weimar Republic Try these for bloody words: I'll sing you a song of about the town, How the green flag went up and the Crown rag went down! 'Twas the neatest and sweetest that ever you saw, And they play the best game played in Erin go bragh! .... A young Cockney sergeant was yelling that day, Just give us one hour and I'll blow you away! But a big Mauser bullet got stuck in his craw, And he died of lead poisoning and Erin go bragh! Now, I think those are bloody-minded lyrics. But I bet some people would differ, on the ground the 1916 Easter Rebellion was noble. So it all depends on whose ox is being gored. |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania) Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 AM "Twa Recruitin Sergeants" comes across as less of a recruiting song than a protest about the awfulness of an agricultural worker's life. The glory of the proposed alternative doesn't really feature. Thurston Clarke's book "Blood and Fire", about the Zionists bombing the King David Hotel, takes its title from a recruiting song of the Irgun, about how Israel would "rise in blood and fire". Anybody got that one, or similar early Zionist ones? |
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Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs From: reggie miles Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM Funny you should ask for such in this thread. This one is the title cut of one of my 2008 releases. If you like, you can listen to it on the player on my MySpace page. http://www.myspace.com/reggiemiles War Mongerin' Man Reggie Miles © 2008 It's a cold, cold wind that blows no good An evil seed that's growin' in our neighborhood With a twisted soul, and tortured mind And no love for his own kind Too blind to see the things he should Only the sound of gold ringing in his ears Drowning out the cries of those whose lives are filled with tears His deaf and dumb predisposition Gives me a strong suspicion Avarice is his sole mission around here With every word he tries to convolute Nothing is so sacred that his lies will not pollute Disinformation is his tool Playin' everybody for the fool Is his only golden rule absolute Have you felt the darkness spread, Or heard the truth subverted by what he said? A glad hand and a smile Is his deceptive style All the while he's a wishin' you were dead Have you seen that war mongerin' man? Have you seen the fruits of his labor across this land? Have you ever wondered why? He'll kiss your baby then he'll spit in your eye. It's all a part of his master plan |
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