BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?

Subject: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:37 PM

The UK's attorney general has used speeches in London and Paris to say Britain cannot accept Bush's proposals for bringing Guantanamo detainees to justice, on the ground that fair trials could not be guaranteed. Coming from so craven an ally, this will surely embarrass the administration a little bit.

Meanwhile one third of Ireland's police have been deployed for Bush's current visit to Co Clare. That's partly to guard against terrorism (I suppose the whole force would have been deployed, except that the world is now a safer place); partly to keep the Irish population miles away, so their protests won't be heard. Not quite the reception US presidents would usually expect in the emerald isle. Bravo Ireland!

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: GUEST, Shin Splints
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:46 PM

... Ireland's police ... have been deployed ... to guard against terrorism

hmmm ... I bet George feels REAL safe.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 06:42 PM

Oh, I expect the Irish police are a poor match for those American troops who police the globe with such distinguised successes to their name.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 07:12 PM

And I am sure that most 'Catters familiar with Fionn's gross exagerations and attempts to prove himself as a crusading journalist, accurate reporter, and well informed commentator will prefer to read the BBC's version.

Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 08:30 PM

Actually, the bigger news is how hostile the Irish have been about this visit and towards Bush. You have to REALLY be an asshole to have all of Ireland so loathe you.

Of course, NBC Nightly News reported that Bush received "a warm Irish welcome". Sure he did. Except another network showed an Irish journalist grilling Bush, telling him that the majority of Irish people were oppposed to his visit, opposed the Iraq war, yadayadayada...

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:42 PM

Seems to me the BBC version Gareth links to agrees pretty well with Fionn's post. What bug is up your bum Gareth?

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 02:58 AM

Er, thread creep. The Attorney General's remarks are very striking to a lawyer, particularly since the Attorney General (who is neither an attorney nor a general, in that respect rather like the Lord Privy Seal) produced opinions to the effect that the Iraq War was legal. For a government lawyer they are forcefully put.

But what effect are the remarks likely to have? Clearly the UK can hardly invade Guantanamo bay to rescue its citizens who are (it must now follow, assuming the AG is right) being unlawfully detained by a foreign power.

If my memory serves me a US lawyer is plodding through the US court system with what I think started life as a habeas corpus application, on behalf of some of the detainees. Anyone know where he's got to?

Is anyone else worried about the integrity of the US court system, particularly under this administration, particulary after the Supreme Court divided on party lines over hanging chads (as distinct from hanging "unlawful combatants", yet)?

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 03:40 AM

Thoughtful post, Gareth. Thanks for posting the link. A pity you overlooked the BBC's take on Lord Goldsmith, but I suppose there are limits to the support I can expect from you.

UK alarm over Guantanamo trials.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 01:45 PM

Now Ireland is reverting to censorship, at America's bidding. Some alert cameraman managed to catch a shot of George in his vest last night, drawing his hotel curtains at bedtime (10pm). This horrifying image has been deemed to be the property of the Irish government, which, mercifully, has suppressed it. How successfully remains to be seen....

Bush filmed in underwear

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 07:32 PM

Ahh ! Another own Goal from Fionn - 1200 demonstrators only.

What a pity it is that you do not confine your posts to matters you can accuratley and objectively comment on.

No wonder you could not find a "safe" Labour seat.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM

Man. You are lame.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 11:15 PM

That last was I. I seem to have dropped my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:41 AM

Not to worry. George W. Bush has declared that the rift has ended:

"The bitter differences of the war are over," Bush told a news conference, which was delayed by anti-American protests staged around the lightning U.S.-EU summit in Ireland.

Bush Declares End to Iraq Rift at EU Summit

(If anyone has a link to that picture of W in his underwear, I'd love to see it.)

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: sledge
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

No you wouldn't :-)

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 01:41 PM

LOL

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 03:28 PM

Carol, I'm told that the Sunday Express was one of a couple of UK papers that defied the ban and ran the picture this morning. Maybe one or two in the states will too, if you're unlucky!

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 04:45 PM

It can't be any worse than this picture can it?

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

Its George Bushes' semmit ,not his summit which is making the news in Scotland.
Apparently George was snapped by a photographer through one of the hotel windows wearing only his semmit. Thankfully it came to below the knee....Ake.
Back at the ranch...It appears the UN are going to be immersed in the Iraq quagmire,as America tries to coerse them into security work.
The politicians say it will only be to train Iraqi police,but everybody knows the long term strategy is for the UN troops to take the place of Americans as terrorist targets,and of course to impress American voters.
Arn't they devious bastards?...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:02 PM

I suspect Lord Goldsmith - the British Attorney General - might have been anticipating the UK Government's take on the possible finding of the USuporene Court this week - Democracy's chance - "Later this week, possibly tomorrow, the United States Supreme Court will deliver its verdict on whether Guantanamo Bay can remain beyond the rule of law."

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:22 PM

One of the reasons I wanted to see the picture is to figure out what a 'vest' is in this particular context. We in the US don't have any use of the word 'vest' that could be applied to what has been described so far in this thread (at least not that I'm aware of). I did a Google search and this is what I got. Not much help here...

Google search: vest undergarment

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:46 PM

A "vest" in the British Isles is what men wear under their shirts - I believe you may call them "undershirts" in the USA. The garment Americans call a "vest" is referred to over here as a "waistcoat" (properly pronounced "weskit").

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: sledge
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:10 AM

It was shown briefly (thank god) on BBC world but only the once. I saw it after having had some tea, felt a bit unwell.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:58 AM

I realised the word was ambiguous, Carol, but didn't know the right word in your language. I should at least have said that it was not a waiscoat. (What is the word?)

Going by my own limited experience and research, I would suggest one tiny amendment to McG's definition, so that it reads "...men used to wear..."

I'm sure McG's right about the imminent Supreme Court judgment. I don't think even Blair would want to be out-poodled by that those guys!

That's a revealing photo from the "mission accomplished" mission. I don't think we can expect anything to emerge that would match that. (Unless he has falsies under his vest too.)

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 09:54 AM

Vest?
Undershirt?
Semmit?
Waistcoat?

He was wearing an undergarment that came down to his knees?
What had he taken off to reveal that then?
I'd like to see a picture of that.

John

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM

US Presidents are used to being treated with kid gloves by US journalists, Bush got more than he bargained for when going head-to-head with RTE reporter Carole Coleman.
The interview was a scream, Bush was taken aback by Carole Coleman`s questioning, this was no more agressive than any UK or Irish politician can expect from the media.
The White House believed that Coleman iterrupted the president unnecessarily and was disrespectful and it was reported that the RTE journalist received a call from the White House in which she was admonished for her tone, [you can`t afford to let the man out on his own], RTE strongly defended Coleman stating that the national broadcaster "was very happy with the interview and Carole`s standard of journalism".
Coleman`s follow-up interview with Mrs Bush was withdrawn by the White House staff, stating that,Mrs Bush would no longer be available.
Dublin newspaper The Sunday Tribune stated that," In democracies, it is the press which puts manners on government, NOT the other way round.
And poor Bush, he never got to meet the Irish people, why?, there was at least 5% who would have made him welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:48 PM

In the US, what the British refer to as a "vest" used to be called simply an "undershirt." It's usually white and made of ribbed cotton, and it's sleeveless and collarless. It looks like a "tank top," which I think used to be just an undershirt, but now, in some circles, has become a hot weather outer garment. Tank-tops used to be khaki, and I think they probably got started during World War II in the African campaign when tank crews running around under the hot Sahara sun stripped off their outer shirts to try to keep from broiling to death inside the tank. They were simple a GI undershirt that later on went fashionable (allowing self-styled studs to display their biceps and pecs and how copiously they can sweat—see any Rambo movie).

What constitutes an "undershirt" in the US became a bit confused when many men began using white cotton T-shirts as undershirts rather than the sleeveless garment the British refer to as a "vest."

I think I just confused myself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:02 PM

I call it a singlet here in Oz.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:20 PM

A T-shirt under a shirt I'd refer to as a vest.

String-vests are the real thing though, Rab C Nesbitt style.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:40 PM

These are the kind of singlets I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:00 PM

Oh, ok. I didn't know that it was possible to get ones like that that come down to the knees. Like Don Firth, I'm used to calling those "tank tops". Sounds like an absolutely chilling picture. Probably just as well they didn't show it in most news outlets.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:05 PM

Perhaps it was a nightshirt?

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:06 PM

Or a dress...

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for an eye-witness account of the Coleman interview Ard Mhacha. It's surely quite extraordinary that a president of anything, anywhere, should need this level of nannying.

Here's a quick round-up by the BBC of how the Irish papers covered the visit. It also puts the protests in perspective, for Gareth's benefit:

Bush protest

The Dublin papers are full of news of US President George Bush's visit, complete with the controversial picture of him standing at the bedroom window in his vest. A headline in the Irish Independent suggests that maybe that part of Dromoland Castle should now be known as the "Vest Wing". The Irish Times says that mercifully Mr Bush's wardrobe now includes an Aran sweater, presented to him by Bertie Ahern.

The paper's correspondent Conor O'Clery says the American media were surprised by the level of protest which greeted Mr Bush. He quotes the New York Times which reckoned the reception was "frosty if not downright hostile". As if to underline that view, the Irish Times says President Mary McAleese appeared "less than wildly enthusiastic" about having her photograph taken with him.

According to the Irish Independent, Carole Coleman of RTE has become the unlikely darling of the anti-war movement after her controversial interview with the president. It says she has been congratulated for pulling off a coup - rattling a media-shy politician who "rarely speaks to reporters without a carefully rehearsed script".

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:58 PM

My, my, my. The Mudcatters posting even hate GWB's underwear! And Carol C would like a picture of the president in his "undies"? I never suspected that you might be a voyeur, Carol, (not an exact definition but close)!

I think, Fionn, Ard, you are taking credit, as justifiably proud Irish citizens, where credit might not be due. Here in the U. S., far more people gather to protest our president than they did in Ireland.

Is it safe to assume when I visit Ireland for two weeks this fall, it would not be wise to wear my "Support George W. Bush" button on my lapel? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: sledge
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:14 PM

Doug, there are quite a few more people in the US than in Ireland hence the likelihood of more protestors.Duh!

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM

A semmit was a long undershirt which was teamed up with a pair of long drawers,and worn in all weathers.They were removed once a year for mainenance, and gave many years of service.
As these garments were made of wool they were in great demand by the likes of Doug, Martin ect...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:54 PM

Doug R you will be made welcome, and you will find no one will take the least notice of your inscribed semmit.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:04 PM

I wouldn't worry about the button, Doug. It's a tolerant country. You might get some cracks about how the best way to support the man might be by the neck.

This site has a link to the RTE video of the interview http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65723>/a> Pretty clearly Bush isn't used to dealing with the kind of interviewers we have this side of the Atlantic, who feel entitled to jump in and try to stop the politicians dodging the question.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:47 PM

No, DougR, I've changed my mind. After seeing that picture of him in his flight suit codpiece, I believe I've seen more than enough.

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

Ahh dear, yet again Wanabee "Crusading Journalist" and failed Prospective Parliamentary Candidate Peter Kirker is trying to boost his limited ego.

If Peter you had bothered, or were capable of doing a search, you will have noted the links to previous statements on human rights and British Nationals by Lord Goldsmith and others. - So nothing new here, despite your attempt to boost your self esteam.

Give it up Peter, concentate on matters you might be qualified to comment on, what ever they may be.

BTW I am still waiting for that "massive" packet of your published articles you promised me in a PM - So Where is it Butty ?

Gareth - more in sorrow than in anger!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: First fracture in transatlantic axis?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:02 AM

DougR, my praise of Ireland couldn't have been more objective! I am neither proud, nor Irish, nor a citizen.

Apologies for the following thread drift. I know PMs would be the right place for it, but as Gareth keeps putting his lies in the public domain, I feel obliged to deal with them in the same arena.

Gareth, I have a Post Office receipt for the stuff I sent you on 24 June, so if it doesn't turn up, let me know and I'll instigate enquiries. In the meantime, you might try the chair of Caerphilly Constituency Labour Party (Pam Baldwin), or the secretary (Barbara Jones) to both of whom I sent copies, but without the enclosures.

The enclosures included copies of two national magazines that, according to you, did not recognise me as a contributor (notwithstanding that I was on the board of one of them!). Both the mags I sent carried articles by me, thereby exposing you in yet another lie. If necessary I can get replacement copies, or at least get the dates so you can look them up for yourself. I also sent you photocopies of another national magazine and from a national newspaper, and correspondence from a national newpaper which, among other things, thanked me for past contributions.

There seems little point pursuing with you your lie about my being a failed prospective parliamentary candidate (a simple enough matter to back up with evidence, if there was any), as you don't seem to be able to stop yourself repeating it. I will deal with that matter through the Labour Party.