78 rpm

Subject: 78 rpm
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:27 AM

Two questions about 78 rpm: how to clean them; where to buy (possibly new) holders for them. Thank you. R

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

I have always found that mild dishwashing liquid with some warm water is best to clean any vinyl recording. I either just use my fingers or a high quality cloth-like paper towel.

Always wash in a circle with the grooves, never across them.

As far as sleeves go, sorry, I can't help.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Franz S.
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:38 AM

Are all 78s vinyl?

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 12:14 PM

No, 78s are generally made of shellac, not vinyl.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 12:41 PM

when trying to extract/rescue the sound from old 78s I washed them in washing up liquid and warm water, dried the side I did not want and then played them wet - the first time was part of the cleaning process, so I cleaned the stylus and then recorded onto a cassette.

It was probably pretty dire for the stylii, but they all survived many recording sessions - I think that the detergent solution softened the impact of all the crud. It also reduced the 'tssssss'noise and crackles.

The sound quality between the original played dry and the wet recording is often the difference between audible words and nothing discernable plus a stuck stylus.

Anne

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

There is another thread at Mudcat with suggestions. Search seems to have problems at the moment but cleaning or clean might be the keyword.

We have very hard water, so I use distilled water rather than tap.

Another suggestion for sleeves. Some people who "can" a lot of food have a heat sealer for plastic. A roll of plastic, a sharp knife and one of these sealers, and you will have as many sleeves as you want. The one we have is electric, called "Decosonic Vacuum Bag Sealer."

Hard 'crud' on the record may be softened over a few days by covering the spots with thin cooking oil, then washing. I had one record with specks of paint on it that yielded to this treatment, with a little rubbing thrown in.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

If you google "record sleeves" you'll find a number of sources.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: YOR
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:14 PM

I always thought you could clean 78's with the same alcohol solution and fuzzy stick used to clean vinyl. No?

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:33 PM

That will dissolve the shellac.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

The era of the "78s" covered quite a few years, and you may find a number of different materials. Some of the latest ones were vinyl, and can be cleaned with the same materials and methods used for later disks. The oldest ones were shellac, and any use of alcohol or "aromatic solvents" of any kind should be avoided. The big problem is that it's hard to tell exactly what you have in order to choose cleaning methods for a particular disk.

It may also be a problem finding equipment for proper playing of old disks. Finding a turntable that will spin them at 78 rpm is only part of the battle. The needles used in any recently made product should be given a careful look, since 78s were meant for "HUGE" needles, and cartridges meant for 33.3 rpm disks, with their "micropoint" needles, may cut holes in them.

Some of the oldest (nearly all shellac) 78s included a "chalk track" at the beginning of the record (the "lead-in") that actually was impregnated with abrasive to "smooth the needle" for each play of the record. A track of this kind may destroy a "modern" needle for use on more finely grooved records pretty quickly. You're not likely to run into this particular "variation" though, unless you're into some really old stuff.

The real answer is that there really isn't a simple answer, without more info on the specific kinds of "78s" you have and on what your intentions for them are.

John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 10:22 PM

I know that in the era of 78's that the grooves consisted of vertical peaks and valleys. With the advent of 'microgroove' recording the bottom of the groove is flat, whereas the walls of the valley wobble from side to side. Nevertheless I've never had any real problem playing them on modern gear.

EXCEPT that I no longer own a 78 rpm turntable. I remember seeing some Wave file software years back which would speed up 33.45 rpm recordings to 78 rpm. Any clues where to find it today?

BTW I wouldn't recommend using your finest transcription turntable with expensive cartridge and stylus to play 78's, but being a bower bird I have some crappy old machines ideal for the purpose.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM

Most, but not all cylinder records used variations in groove depth to drive the needle vertically. That was more efficient when the only "sound equipment" consisted of a diaphragm attached to the needle and a large horn. With the advent of electronic amplification, which came along by the early thirties, the 78s used a constant width, constant depth groove that "wiggled" the needle side to side. The sides of the needle had a very small (usually 7-10 degree) "wedge" and the tip was a fairly large smooth "ball" that rode in the bottom of the groove.

For a microgroove recording, generally 33-1/3 rpm, the needle has a 45 degree slope on each side, and a very small tip radius that should never touch the bottom of the groove.

When a microgroove needle is used on a 78 rpm record, the 45 degree "flanks" of the needle allow it to wedge into the groove and scrape the tops off. Wear of the record can be quite rapid if this happens. Many 78s have a wide enough track to allow some microgroove needles to go all the way to the bottom, where the tiny tip radius acts like a high speed lathe tool to cut the bottom out of the groove. Once you cut through the vinyl/shellac (whichever) in the bottom of the groove, many 78s have a clay or paper, sometimes with added asbestos, "core" that is permeable to moisture, and once it's exposed to the air the whole surface of the record may start to "spall off."

Playing a 78 with the wrong needle once or twice to see what you've got or to transfer to another medium probably isn't likely to cause discernible damage, but if you intend to play 78s repeatedly it is advisable that you match a "78 needle" to the disks - and use it ONLY for the 78s. (Inadvertently putting a microgroove record on under the "78" needle may cause a lot more damage to the record than a limited use of the microgroove needle on a 78 record.)

John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

A Swiss company called Lenco used to make a turntable with a constantly variable speed abtained with a conical shaft, driving an intermediate rubber coaated idler wheel that turned a second conical shaft, such that the position of the idler wheel could me moved to achieve constant variable speed. Bogen - think educational equipment - imported there turntables for many years, may still. That gives you a place to start.

Now granted this won't give you the same fidelity as your $1500 custom made turntable, but 78 RPM records were not known for their fidelity. A local DJ who does a historical music show, has an unofficial rating of these records by the number of pennies or dimes he has to place on the tone arm to get it to stop skipping over the reecord!

Dave

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:07 AM

One of the "better(?)" sources of 78 players, at least in my neighborhood, has been to catch the local school when they're "modernizing," and try to snap up a "salvage" unit. About the only people making turntables with the 78 speed in recent years have been those who specialize in "educational equipment," unless you were willing to pay the big bucks for "studio quality."

My "junker" is by "Hamilton Electronics" with a "Woodward Oklahoma School System" inventory tag. (Hamilton still makes them, probably about $300 US new. Mine cost me $3.00)

John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:16 AM

G'day Roberto,

Of course, if you have unlimited funds (like none of us here!) you can go buy the Japanese laser reader that has everypossible compensation for variations in 78 rpm disks and doesn't physically touch the record ... it's only US$10,500 ... from the Japanese factory's door (you pay transport, packing, customs &c, &c).

Then they recommend a custom-made record washer from UK ... about US$1,500 if I remember correctly.

I don't think one is likely to adorn my music table for a while (but I'm starting to get interested reactions from local (Sydney, Australia) firm Archival Revival ... so I may find out just how good a result (~) Aust$17,000 will pluck from my irreplaceable old records!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:37 AM

Bother, I had posted in some detail on this subject last night, (1) How to use Cool Edit or Sound Forge to create normal sounding Wave Files although recording them at 33 or 45 RPM and (2) using RIP VINYL shareware which costs $7. I'm awaiting a reply from this mob. I queried one of their product claims in this regard. I'll be back after I receive a reply.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:12 AM

RIP Vinyl "If you record at 45 with the 78 rpm tick box checked, you should be able to burn the file to a cd and hear it as normal", according its developer - Anthony Wieser. There's a free download at his site.

When you record tracks from an LP that has breaks between tracks RIP Vinyl automatically creates separate WAV files - override of this feature is possible also I gather.

This site describes how to record a 78 at 45 rpm using Cool Edit. It's not the same site that I referred to in my lost post, but it gives a similar method. I got quite a few hits when I Googled for '78 rpm cool edit'. Another site contends that Sound Forge is superior.

I haven't yet tried any of the methods.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: GUEST,Antoine
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:54 AM

Thank you for a wonderful site.

Would someone please let me know if I can use a brand-new soft toothbrush to dry clean - no liquid - a record? Also, what is a comparable 78 rpm stylus for a Shure 91ED?

Thanks again.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:45 AM

1) Yes - if you want to damamge it severely.

2) You should ask an audio technical site, rather tham a site for musicians, sorry.

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:56 PM

Anyone know how practical it would be to transfer music on a 78 to a CD? If so, what would be the process?

DougR

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 06:01 PM

RipVinyl, mentioned above, is excellent and cheap software. You can definitely use a 45 rpm player to do the job, and RipVinyl will even reduce the record's background noise as well as restoring the 78's original playback speed correctly.

My 80 year old father can get his head around it, so why not give it a go!

Subject: RE: 78 rpm
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 06:29 PM

If I were to post a question on folk music to a 78rpm collector's forum I would no doubt get back as much mis-information as has been posted in this link. If you want info on 78's there are hundreds of specialist sites on the web. Click here for a list of more than a hundred. It may save you wrecking your records completely.