BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:59 AM

Jack, take a word from your wife, OK?

"My "fuck you" response is between me and brucie, and it's none of your business."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:48 PM

I'm sorry Beardedbruce, I quoted him once, I'm not going to do it again. If he's quoting a UN report good for him. He said he was speaking as a "proverbial cab driver" not as a political expert. Pardon me for taking him at his word. But that's what he said.

He is trying to say this is a World War with Israel and its allies on one side and the Muslim world on the other. I say that Israel vs Arabs is not my fight. I'm sorry but I don't value an Israeli child above anyone else's.

I think that there are plenty of people putting across the Pro Irsael point of view. If Carol wants to speak for the Palestinians that doesn't make her against the people of Israel. I am for peace and prosperity for Israel. But I think their current government has other priorities.

Good luck to all of you and God Bless. I am done with this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:40 PM

I disagree with your praphrasing of what I said, Little Brother. And I can back that up with documentation.


These posts of yours are self-serving, because most people are tired of the crap you cut and paste.

How can they possibly be self-serving if they bring me so much hostility from people like you, Martin Gibson, Bill H, and various anonymoust GUESTS? I document my assertions because people ask me to. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

Let me ask this. What have you ever done for anyone but yourself

I raised a special needs child, essentially by myself.

You are a rude individual

That's pretty funny coming from someone who defends someone whose whole purpose in being here in the Mudcat is to make personal attacks on others.

and not all that persuasive with your arguments

You're entitled to your opinions.

You liken yourself to a person who cares about human rights. You do not. You care about Palestinian rights. Not Jewish rights. So, stow your rhetoric. It sucks, and your initial personal attack did, too. Pass that on to the guy you live with, with my warmest regards.

This is bullshit. Just as I hold the policies of the US government responsible for the deaths of all of the US citizens who died or were wounded in Vietnam, I also hold the government of Israel responsible for all of the Israeli Jews who have died or been wounded as a result of its policies. I am speaking out on behalf of Israeli Jews. Go ahead and read the words of the young people whom you expect to go and die and/or kill in the Occupied Territories in order to carry out the policies of a repressive regime that they don't even agree with. Why will you not read their words?

The reason you won't read their words is because if you do, you'll find out that you have been supporting state sponsored terrorism all this time, and you might have difficulty living with yourself as a result of that realization.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:34 PM

I guess you didn't understand.

I said

I'll tell you what Brucie. If you are not a troll, you show us where Carol said that the Israelis are wrong "for wanting to live". If she is really as hatefull as you say she is it shouldn't be hard to find. If you can't find anything to back up what you are saying, if you can't back up your disgusting ad hominim attacks then fuck you!

Defending Palestinians is not the same as saying that "Israelis are wrong for wanting to live"

It seems to me you are going to respond to this in one of two ways. You are either going to back up your statement with a quote from Carol or you are going to demonstate your ignorance one more time by repeating the same lame lies. What is it to be brucie? Are you going to put up or shut up?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:54 PM

Carol,

Let me ask this. What have you ever done for anyone but yourself? These posts of yours are self-serving, because most people are tired of the crap you cut and paste. You are a rude individual, and not all that persuasive with your arguments.

You liken yourself to a person who cares about human rights. You do not. You care about Palestinian rights. Not Jewish rights. So, stow your rhetoric. It sucks, and your initial personal attack did, too. Pass that on to the guy you live with, with my warmest regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:36 PM

Carol, let me accurately rephrase your rephrasel.
"The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) in which the Palestinian terorrist cowards took shelter after committing their vile and despicable terorist acts." -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: mg
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM

the things that were being done for some of them and many are greatly appreciative of our efforts to this day. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

Or maybe you're just a completely spineless fair-weather activist who is only willing to get involved in fashionable activist or human rights movements, but who won't go anywhere near any human rights causes that won't bring you any glory.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

Another thing I was wondering about, brucie, is when you were protesting the Vietnam War, how much time you spent criticizing the people of Vietnam for the things that were being done to them by the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

SSDD from you Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM

Let me rephrase that, since that is a bit of a sore point for me...

The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) that the government of Israel used my tax money to help them destroy during the incursion into the Occupied Territories in 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:13 PM

I don't see much of it going to better their everyday lives

The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The actual fact is that quite a lot of foriegn aid money was used by the Palestinians to build the civil infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, government facilities, etc.) that the government of Israel destroyed during the incursion into the Occupied Territories in 2002.

I never said I was a lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

And Carol, using the "f" word doesn't become you as a lady. -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Carol, and it's also some of your money that pays for what the Palestinians are doing to Israel also. The U.S. gave millions to the Palestinians as well. I don't see much of it going to better their everyday lives. -LB

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

Carol has NEVER supported Israel in anything she's written.

If you think that, it's obvious that you're not reading what I've written.

Who died and made you God brucie? I challenge you, also, to read the words of the members and former members of the IDF that I've posted here in this thread. And the myriad of other things I've posted from Israeli Jews whose main crime is that they don't agree with you about what's good for Israel.

When you were an activist in the fight against the war in Vietnam, there were people who were accusing people like you of being anti-American. Of hating America, and of not supporting America. Vietnam War protesters were not anti-American. They just didn't agree with the agenda of the US government with regard to Vietnam. I don't have to support the agenda that you endorse in order to be in support of Israel. You don't get to decide that your vision of Israel is the only vision of Israel that is supportive of Israel as a country. And the fact that it's my money and not yours that pays for what the government of Israel does to the Palestinians, gives me a hell of a lot more right to decide which vision of lsrael I am willing to support than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:47 PM

Jack, you should take your head out of your ass. Carol has NEVER supported Israel in anything she's written. It is one litany after another about the Palestinians--and she sees no connection between them and the Arabic nations (countries) that have vowed to destroy Isreal. You spout the same shit. So, dear Jack, fuck you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

beardedbruce, the way things work in the US, and I imagine also in Israel, is that anyone who doesn't have a bias against the Palestinians, and Arabs and Muslims in general, is perceived to have a bias against Israel. But that's just nonesense. The fact that I don't have a bias against the Palestinians is not in any way an indication of a bias against Israel.

I support Israelis. Just not the same Israelis that you support. I challenge you to read the material I posted in this thread from the members and former members of the IDF and the refuseniks, who are not willing to be complicit in their silence about what the government of Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories. Those people are Israelis, and I support them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM

sorry, crossposted- 03:00PM was to CarolC

Jack, he is quoting an UN report saying that the problem is not Israel. I do not think he "uses his nationality both as a source of credibility on the region ", but rather to identify himself.

"Professor HAIM HARARI, a theoretical physicist, is the Chair, Davidson
Institute of Science Education, and Former President, from 1988 to
2001, of the Weizmann Institute of Science.

During his years as President of the Institute, it entered numerous
new scientific fields and projects, built 47 new buildings, raised one
Billion Dollars in philanthropic money, hired more than half of its
current tenured Professors and became one of the highest
royalty-earning academic organizations in the world.

Throughout all his adult life, he has made major contributions to
three different fields: Particle Physics Research on the international
scene, Science Education in the Israeli school system and Science
Administration and Policy Making."


Seems like a standard academic listing to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:02 PM

Beardedbruce, you are welcome to disagree with my assessment. You are not welcome to claim that I claim that someone is wrong BECAUSE they are Jewish. Fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:00 PM

WHich I think we both knew.

I doubt if we will ever agree on this topic. I do think, however, that the good information you sometimes present is ignored because of the perceived bias you and Jack have against Israel- more so than the information lost because of my perceived bias in favor of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:59 PM

Beardedbruce,

He is the one who uses his nationality both as a source of credibility on the region and as an excuse to claim that he is not involved. To me, that's Bullshit.


He is using race to say in effect that the other Arab countries should be outraged at the Palestinians for their actions against Israel but implying that they should not be outraged at the actions Israel has taken against the Palestinians.

Its Bullshit, an Israeli claiming that the problem is not Israel is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:52 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

Beardedbruce my point is that Israel blaming the problem on the Muslims being "dysfunctional" is disregarding the log in their own eye to point out the dust in everyone else's eyes.

No one argues that there are problems in the region.
Everyone else but Israel believes that Israel is a good place to address these problems. One of the reasonss Cheney had for starting the neocon plan in Iraq was that the Iraqis were the best educated Middle eastern country and that for that reason it would be a good place from which to spread democracy. The Palestinians traditionally have been the second best educated Middle Eastern population. In my opinion, their main impediment to democracy is the atrocity swapping between Hamas and the Sharon Goverment.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:49 PM

Haim Harari took the report given by Arabs at the UN out of context and twisted it around to serve a purpose that is entirely the opposite of the purpose of the original report given by Arabs. The way Haim Harari uses this information is racist, bigoted, and highly prejudiced.

And then he makes that racist claim that all Arabs and Muslims are complicit in their silence for the crimes committed by the most extreme Arabs and Muslims. As I pointed out before, if someone would say the same thing, only substituting "Jews" for "Arabs and Muslims", you and many others would call it anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:47 PM

Note he said "on what I read " I was presenting the UN report that he must have read, from the figures he presents.

YOU accused him of "bigoted hate inducing unsupported diatribe" when if fact his reasoned remarks were those of an intelligent person given the information in the Arab produced UN report. THAT makes you a bigot- You judge his remarks by his nationality, rather than the content. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine- but YOU made an unsupported accusation.

Your preoccupation with blaming Israel for all the problems of the Arab world detracts from your sometimes valid critism of some of the actions of the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

"This is a source for the information in the starting post, which YOU have claimed the man could not know because he was a Jew. I hardly think that this is unrelated."

No Beardedbruce, I was pointing out that the man's ONLY CLAIM to expertise was that he lives in Israel.

Here are the areas of expertise that he claims.


Professor HAIM HARARI, a theoretical physicist, is the Chair, Davidson Institute of Science Education, and Former President, from 1988 to 2001, of the Weizmann Institute of Science.

During his years as President of the Institute, it entered numerous
new scientific fields and projects, built 47 new buildings, raised one Billion Dollars in philanthropic money, hired more than half of its current tenured Professors and became one of the highest
royalty-earning academic organizations in the world.

Throughout all his adult life, he has made major contributions to
three different fields: Particle Physics Research on the international scene, Science Education in the Israeli school system and Science Administration and Policy Making.

Here is knowledge he bases his opinion on.

I have never been and I will never be a
Government official and I have no privileged information. My
perspective is entirely based on what I see, on what I read and on the fact that my family has lived in this region for almost 200 years. You may regard my views as those of the proverbial taxi driver, which you are supposed to question, when you visit a country.

He is claiming to know about Morocco and Pakistan even though he lives in Israel.
He is claiming that he knows about the problems in those places, a thousand miles away, even as he claims that those problems have nothing to do with Israel. It just isn't credible. How are Casablanca and Tel Aviv in the "same neighbourhood" Casablanca and Madrid may be in the same neighbourhood. Athens is a lot closer to Israel than Karachi. Is he also qualified to speak about Greece and Spain?

I'm not saying that the man doesn't know what he is talking about because he is a Jew. I'm saying he doesn't know what he is talking about because his claim of knowledge on the matter is hogwash and is not even internally consistant. I am sure a lot of Jews know a lot about this topic. Sharon is one one on the right, no Doubt, Carol quotes a lot who speak the other side.

I you got in a taxi in Chicago would you ask his opinion of New York or San Francisco?

This is what I don't like.

Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because Israel and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never been the central issue in the upheaval in the region.

I say there is no one central issue. I say, and have said that Israel is as much at fault as any regime in the region and much more so than most. You don't agree, that's fine. But don't accuse me of bigotry. Just like the man who wrote that speech I can read and give my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

Read the speech by HAIM HARARI, the point of this thread, and see for YOURSELF.


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."



Hundreds of times more moslems are killed every year by other moslems, but since you can't blame Israel, you see fit to ignore that.

The POINT of the article starting this thread was that as long as the Arab world insisted on blaming Israel for all the problems, they would NEVER have "self-reform stemming from open, scrupulous and balanced self-criticism is the right, if not the only alternative to plans that have apparently been drawn up outside the Arab world for restructuring the region and for reshaping its identity. " to quote from Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

The question becomes, done to them BY WHOM?

Read the speech from Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi (the very same woman you are using as your source of information) that I posted an excerpt from and a link to in my 01 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM post, and see for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:19 PM

sorry, the second quote was CarolC at 01 Aug 04 - 03:23 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM

from the first posting:

"Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because
Israel and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read
or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never
been the central issue in the upheaval in the region. Yes, there is a
100 year-old Israeli-Arab conflict, but it is not where the main show
is. The millions who died in the Iran-Iraq war had nothing to do with
Israel. The mass murder happening right now in Sudan, where the Arab
Moslem regime is massacring its black Christian citizens, has nothing
to do with Israel. The frequent reports from Algeria about the murders
of hundreds of civilian in one village or another by other Algerians
have nothing to do with Israel. Saddam Hussein did not invade Kuwait,
endangered Saudi Arabia and butchered his own people because of Israel.
Egypt did not use poison gas against Yemen in the 60's because of
Israel. Assad the Father did not kill tens of thousands of his own
citizens in one week in El Hamma in Syria because of Israel. The
Taliban control of Afghanistan and the civil war there had nothing to
do with Israel. The Libyan blowing up of the Pan-Am flight had nothing
to do with Israel, and I could go on and on and on."


"But that won't happen as long as there are people who need to promote hatred of Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims because if they do the alternative- recognize these people as human beings, they won't any longer be able to rationalize away the horrific things that are being done to them. "

The question becomes, done to them BY WHOM?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM

CarolC

Jack the Sailor: " The man claims to know the all the problems of an area from Morrocco to Pakistan because he lives in Israel "

I merely presented WHERE he got the facts that he used in his arguement. Fram an ARAB generated UN Report. Hardly the " bigoted hate inducing unsupported diatribe" that Jack claimed it was- unless you choose to call the UN Report unsupported. At least I had the decency not to post the entire article, when the "blue clicky" makes it available to those interested.
" You can't possibly be on very firm ground in your arguments if you have to resort to that kind of dirty trick. "

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM

beardedbruce, just like brucie, you are twisting other peoples words to make it look like they are saying something entirely differen from what they are actually saying. You can't possibly be on very firm ground in your arguments if you have to resort to that kind of dirty trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

That article is pretty hatemongering, beardedbruce. It takes the work being done by an Arab to help identify and correct the problems facing the Arab world out of context and only discusses the fact that they have problems, and ignores the fact that their purpose in identifying the problems is so that they can begin to correct them. To their credit they at least have someone who is willing to look the problems of her people squarely in the eye and be honest about them. I wish the United States had someone like her working for us at the UN.

She also has some pretty harsh words for the damage that the actions of the western countries are causing to the the Arab world's efforts to improve and reform their situation. Here's the speech she gave about the Arab Human Development Report for 2003

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:aviwCXvLAiIJ:www.undp.org/RimaSpeechEnglish.pdf+%22Rima+Khalaf+Hunaidi%22&hl=en

"Allow me first, Your Excellency, to express my gratitude to you and my deep appreciation for your kind welcome. We are greatly honoured by your presence on the occasion of the official launch of the Second Arab Human Development Report. It is a source of immense pleasure for us that Jordan, in the reign of His Majesty King Abdullah the Second, is hosting this landmark ceremony. This generous act has given the Report team a platform from which to address the entire Arab people and a forum open to different points of view. Amman for us today is a centre for freedom of expression in service to the cause of development across the Arab world. To our distinguished guests attending from other countries of region, I offer a warm welcome to Jordan. Thank you for taking the trouble to be with us and for sharing our faith in the capabilities of this region and our concern for its future...

...In the time available to me, please allow me to accompany you on a quick tour of the second Report. This is an opportunity to familiarize ourselves with the state of knowledge in the Arab world, in particular its dissemination and production; to take note of the cultural, political, economic and social context for knowledge acquisition; and to review aspects of the authors' strategic vision for enhancing the acquisition, indigenisation and creation of knowledge. Before turning to the topic of knowledge, it is important to remember that, according to the Report team, the two years between starting the first Report and initiating the second have been two years unlike any others in recent Arab history. This has been a time of events that have shaken the world and traumatized the Arab region. In 2002, the Israeli army reoccupied almost the entire Palestinian Territories committing, notably in Jenin and Nablus, a series of human atrocities, including wanton destruction, intimidation and killing that led reputable international non-governmental organizations to describe those acts as "war crimes".

The invasion also caused widespread material destruction that spared neither schools, nor mosques nor churches nor even olive trees. The occupation continues to undermine the capabilities of Palestinian society and its hopes of self-determination and statehood. In 2003 Iraq fell under an occupation that most Arabs saw as embodying plans to reshape the region from the outside to suit the interests of foreign powers. Over the last two years, measures taken in the name of the war on terrorism have stifled freedoms in many parts of the world, notably in the United States. Civil and political freedoms, particularly of Arabs and Muslims, were violated as a consequence. Arabs and Muslims have faced arrest and arbitrary detention without trial or charge. Contrary to established legal principles they have become guilty until proven innocent.

Islam has been the target of an unjust wave of provocation, defamation and criticism that betrays remarkable ignorance most of the time and blatant prejudice at other times. The clearest expression of what Arabs and Muslims have come to suffer as a result of ethnic profiling came from His Majesty King Abdullah The Second when he observed in his Islamic Summit speech that the pre-judgement of Muslims has come to represent the worst form of terrorism. Certain profound events only reveal their full consequences after an interval. Yet in this case the results were felt immediately. The impact of these momentous events would cripple the process of development in Arab societies imposing a pattern contrary to that desired by most Arabs.

Undoubtedly, under these new circumstances, the challenge of human development has become even more important, more urgent and harder to attain. In contrast to these externally driven events, the series of Arab Human Development Reports represents an effort to crystallize a strategic vision of change, developed by Arabs, for the sake of human development from within the region and to deepen an Arab-owned and Arab-led dialogue on ways to safeguard the dignity and well-being of the Arab people. There can be no doubt that self-reform stemming from open, scrupulous and balanced self-criticism is the right, if not the only alternative to plans that have apparently been drawn up outside the Arab world for restructuring the region and for reshaping its identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:28 PM

That IS the point of this thread.

This is a source for the information in the starting post, which YOU have claimed the man could not know because he was a Jew. I hardly think that this is unrelated.

" bigoted hate inducing unsupported diatribe " right back at you...

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

Israelis being wrong for wanting to live.


I'll tell you what Brucie. If you are not a troll, you show us where Carol said that the Israelis are wrong "for wanting to live". If she is really as hatefull as you say she is it shouldn't be hard to find. If you can't find anything to back up what you are saying, if you can't back up your disgusting ad hominim attacks then fuck you!

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM

BeardedBruce do you have a point or do you just enjoy posting unrelated quotes on the same thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

Jack the Sailor:
"Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

That is a speech is bigoted hate inducing unsupported diatribe. The man claims to know the all the problems of an area from Morrocco to Pakistan because he lives in Israel even though he says Israel is not a cause of the problem."

Sept 2002 Worldpress article, from July 2002 Al-Ra'i article

quote from article:

"Now that Rima Khalaf has moved to the United Nations as director of the Arab regional office in the U.N. Development Program, she has taken the same idea and expanded it to cover 22 Arab countries in order to make clear the region's faults and give encouragement to those in a position to instigate reform.

The team she chose and led was 100-percent Arab in order to avoid accusations of bias against the Arabs or of focusing on negative points in an attempt to distort the image of the Arabs in the world, according to the conspiracy theory. "

"The Arab development report hangs out the Arabs' dirty washing before the world and offers a wealth of information that mars the image of the Arabs in the world, but unfortunately the information is correct. Perhaps the most Arab regimes will do after reading it is to pressure Kofi Annan to move Rima Khalaf and ask her to pack her bags and return to her home in Amman. "

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:51 AM

Yes. Fuck you brucie. Fuck you for refreshing this thread just so you can get your jollies from watching me get beat up for standing up for what I believe in. Fuck you.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:49 AM

brucie, I have supported the building of the wall, ALONG THE GREEN LINE. I have supported Israel putting its troops along its border ON THE GREEN LINE. That is how they can save the lives of innocent Israelis. They do NOT protect innocent Israeli lives by putting settlers in the Occupied Territories and waging a brutal occupation of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:47 AM

You not understanding lunacy leaves me speechless. Have a nice day.

"Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:50 AM

Fuck you brucie.

Your words I believe. Did you think it up all by yourself, Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:44 AM

"And you know full well that I have condemned the killing of Israeli children and Israeli civilians several times here in these threads. So don't give me that bullshit about not addressing the issue of the suicide bombers killing civilians."

And every time it comes down to the Israelis being wrong for wanting to live. You hate Israel, Carol. No question. I don't know that you are on such high moral ground. Not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:43 AM

You call me abusive. After all of the shit I've had slung at me from you, Bill H, Martin Gibson, and a host of others. You are a hypocrite, brucie. I've taken the abuse that's been heaped on me and not responded in kind until you started trolling in this thread. Save it yourself, you fucking hypocrite.

If you don't want this thread to be prolonged, DON'T REFRESH IT!!!

Blaming me for prolonging it, when it's you who have been refreshing it after it's gone dormant, really takes the cake, and requires a degree of lunacy that I can't even begin to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:33 AM

Save it, Carol. You are abusive. You don't start the threads, Carol, but you keep them going. It is not about rights for Palestinians; it's about Carol being right.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:23 AM

The only action that is required to solve the problem is for Israel to end the occupation and leave the Palestinians alone so they can get to work building their own country. Everything else, all arguments about who else is responsible for what, is just an avoidance of the real issue, which is that Israel is conducting a brutal occupation against an entire people and killing many, many more Palestinian children than the other way around.

And you know full well that I have condemned the killing of Israeli children and Israeli civilians several times here in these threads. So don't give me that bullshit about not addressing the issue of the suicide bombers killing civilians.

It's you and the others who start these threads, and you, in particular who keep refreshing this one when it goes dormant, who are obsessed. And that's because deep in your heart, you know you are wrong, and instead of just dealing with it, you have to beat me up in threads like this one so you won't have to face the reality of what you are advocating. I'm not the one who starts these threads. I would like to see all of them just go away. But that won't happen as long as there are people who need to promote hatred of Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims because if they do the alternative- recognize these people as human beings, they won't any longer be able to rationalize away the horrific things that are being done to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:32 AM

Why do you never discuss the other countries in the region--many of them very rich countries--that have done NOTHING to help Palestinians. Funding for "fraternal organizations" yes, but not the Palestinian people. Israel is surrounded by countries that have vowed to kill everyone in Israel. You tend to ignore that while you spout the party line, don't you? Yeah, you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:19 AM

I do not see suicide bombers as human. You project your bullshit onto everyone. When will you address the right of suicide bombers to kill Jewish kids, Carol? When? Don't talk to me about bullshit. You are a master of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:02 AM

You won't be truly happy until they're all dead, and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:00 AM

And yes, what the Palestinians is doing is in self defense. My putting it to you as a question was a credit to your humanity, but I see that I overestimated you in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:55 AM

brucie, you're just projecting your own bullshit onto me. I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that I hate Israel and don't want civil rights extended to Jewish people in their "homeland" when all I am calling for is for them to END THE OCCUPATION of the WEST BANK, GAZA, AND EAST JERUSALEM, and to leave the Palestinians alone to build their own country in THE WEST BANK, GAZA, AND EAST JERUSALEM.

It's you who is full of hate. You hate the Palestinians so much, you don't even see them as human beings wHo deserve the same rights as you and me and the Jews who live in Israel.

And how the hell should I know whether or not Arafat still has that stupid 300 million that you say he has?