BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard

Subject: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 01:51 PM

I would like to get all of your opinions on the plight of Jonathan Pollard, a man who was tried and convicted as an American but was sentenced and punished as a Jew. Pollard was convicted for espionage. He spied for Israel, a friend and ally of the United States. He pleaded guilty in exchange for a lighter sentence, but after a secret memorandum from Casper Weinberger, the judge threw out the deal and sentenced Pollard to a life prison term in solitary confinement. By contrast, people who have spied for the Soviet Union, an enemy of the United states (such as the Walkers), were allowed to walk free after serving only 10 years. Pollard, who has already served 20 years can not get access to the documents needed to appeal his sentence, even though his new lawyers have top security clearance. Do you think this is fair ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 02:24 PM

If Israel is our friend and ally, why is she spying on us?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

I believe that he should have been sentenced and punished as an American. I think it is disgusting that the US let the Israelis grant him citizenship and take him out of the country. If Justice is to be served it will be by punishing the Walkers more, not Pollard less. Giving secrets to a so called ally, is much more worse than giving them to an enemy. We can't have every analyst second guessing their supierors. How could we stop someone from giving secrets to the Saudis, The Egyptians or any of our other allies? If that happens should the spying government be allowed to take the person under their wing and start working on his early release? Special treatment for Israel is wrong and it should stop immediately. Low level analysts have no business deciding what information another country is allowed to have. It is cowardly and foolish to allow so called allies to try to make heroes and martyrs of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 02:58 PM

Jack the Sailor,

I'm afraid that your ignorance of this case has been blinded by your attitude toward Israel.

I believe that he should have been sentenced and punished as an American. I think it is disgusting that the US let the Israelis grant him citizenship and take him out of the country.

Last time I checked, North Carolina was in the United States, not in Israel. Pollard has never been taken out of the country. He's in solitary confinement in the federal prison in Butner, NC.

Special treatment for Israel is wrong and it should stop immediately.

Israel is certainly not receiving any "special treatment" in this case. If anything, as Rabbi Zeller pointed out, Pollard's spying on behalf of Israel, has been dealt with in a much harsher manner than what has been done by spies out to damage the US.

BTW, allies spy on each other all the time. We spy on Canada, Great Britain, Israel, etc. It's part of the realpolitik of the post-WWII world. In most cases, when a spy is caught in another country, he or she is sent home. A typical sentence in a case like this is 3-10 years in prison. Not life.

Pollard's big sin was not that he was spying. The information that he passed to Israel was not terribly significant, or at all harmful to the US. Pollard's big sin is that he's a Jewish American.

The extreme punishment that was dealt to Pollard was to prove to people like you that, despite the close relationship we have with Israel, they receive NO special consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:00 PM

Rabbi, I respect you and your learning.

I lived for sixteen years in South Bend, Indiana, where Pollard's father, Morris (an emeritus professor of biology), ran the Lobund Laboratory. Morris Pollard has worked for his son's release or, at least, a reduction to his sentence upon the same premise you make. Morris Pollard is a very, very nice and educated man.

While I cannot support injustice, neither can I support treason. Betraying the secrets of a country, whether or not you are a citizen of that country, is treason to the country you betray. It doesn't matter if the country you supply the secrets TO is a friend or foe.

J. Pollard was entrusted with certain secrets. He supplied those secrets, of his own free will, to Israel. He was convicted of that, and in my opinion his conviction was just and as I read your post you do not dispute that (neither does Morris Pollard).

Whether or not his sentence was just is a different story. If the punishment meted out to the Walkers was less than that given to Pollard, there is injustice. I suggest that the Walkers' punishment be the same as Pollard's.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM

I'm having some difficulty figuring out how this boils down to his being Jewish. Caspar Weinberger's father was Jewish, and Ruth Ginsberg, who is Jewish, was one of the Supreme Court Justices who upheld the sentance when it was appealed. Are you sure there aren't some other factors contributing to the severity of his sentance?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:41 PM

I'm afraid that your ignorance of this case has been blinded by your attitude toward Israel.

No, my "ignorance" is in the small details and comes from Rabbi-Sol's assretation that he was being "punished as a jew". And from Pottard's website which seems to be blaming the Sharon governmnet for his confinement.

Does it matter whether he is in Tel Aviv or Tennessee? Previous Israeli governments have had the gall to request his release. They have made him a citizen and offer him haven upon his release. No doubt he will be treated as a hero if he is ever free in Israel. Forget justice, for a moment, think of harm it would do for US security if this were allowed to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:43 PM

tried and convicted as an American but was sentenced and punished as a Jew.

Please explain this Rabbi-Sol.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 03:59 PM

From this quote from Ariel Sharon in Pollard's website, I get the impression that the reason Pollard is still in jail is because the US wants Israel to return the documents and information Pollard stole from the US and gave to Israel, but Israel refuses to do so. My guess is that if Israel would return the stolen materials, Pollard would probably have his sentence reduced.

SHARON: "This is the worst problem. To tell the truth, it did not have to be handled this way. I can only say that it happened many years ago. At the time I had nothing whatsoever to do with the affair. It happened when I was no longer the Minister of Defense. I opposed commissioning an official investigation in Israel, but they told me that we had already promised [the US] that we would have one. Afterwards there was a discussion [in the Cabinet] and the idea came up about returning the documents. I was opposed and I said that we are sealing his fate to at least a life sentence. I don't want to say at this time what the other responses were, even from our own [Likud] people, because I do not want to cause any further pain."

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:39 PM

Carol and Jack: If Jonathan Pollard was spying for any friendly nation other than Israel, let us say Great Britian, Canada, Australia, or Ireland and his name was let's say, Murphy instead of Pollard, I don't think the 2 of you would even be on this thread now.
The fact that a person's father is Jewish does not automaticaly make him Jewish. Jewish law states that the deciding factor is matrilineal descent, not patrilinial. Therefore since his mother was not Jewish, neither is he. If Casper Weinberger was indeed Jewish I am sure that the Saudi Royal family would not have had such lucrative dealings with the Bechtel Corporation that he is such a prominent part of, much like Cheney is with Haliburton. Weinberger is in fact despised as an avowed anti-semite in the Jewish community. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg who is Jewish was never involved in the case, because it never got higher than the district court level. The fact that Pollard's inept original lawyer never appealed the sentence in the first place is what caused the statute of limitations to kick in and precluded any further appeals. No one is arguing that Pollard was innocent. Everyone, including his own father, agrees that he was guilty of the crime and deserved to be punished. The question is; Should his punishment be more harsh than someone like Walker who spied for the Soviet Union, which at that time was an avowed enemy of the United States? The other question is; Why did the US government renege on a guilty plea deal, based solely on the basis of a secret memorandum by Casper Weinberger that Pollard's attorneys were not allowed to see and defend him against? This is the same Casper Weinberger who a little while later had his own serious legal problems with the Government and had to pay a heavy fine. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:51 PM

He betrayed a trust. Let him rot.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:55 PM

Walker did the same thing, for an enemy nation. Why should he be walking around a free man ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:03 PM

Good question. Does one injustice justify another?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM

This is America in which I believe the operative phrase is "Equal Justice Under The Law". If Walker was still in prison serving life, I would not even have contemplated starting this thread. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:31 PM

I made a mistake in my first post to this thread when I said, "a typical sentence in a case like this is 3-10 years in prison. Not life."

I've since done some more checking and have found that a typical sentence for such an offence is actually 2-4 years.

Other than Pollard, the stiffest sentence ever handed out for spying on behalf of a friendly country was to Steven Lalas, who spied for Greece. He got 14 years.

Michael Schwartz spied for Saudi Arabia. He was discharged from the Navy with no time served.

Peter Lee spied for China. He got 1 year in a halfway house.

Samuel Morrison spied for Great Britain. He was sentenced to 2 years and was released after 3 months.

Philip Selden spied for El Salvador. He got 2 years.

Steven Baba spied for South Africa. He got an 8 year sentence that was reduced to 2 and was released after 5 months.

Sharon Scrange spied for Ghana. Her 5 year sentence was reduced to 2 years and she was released after 8 months.

Jean Baynes spied for the Phillipines. She was sentenced to 41 months and was relaesed after 15 months.

Abdul Kader Helmy spied for Egypt. He got 4 years and was released after 2.

Geneva Jones spied for Liberia and got a 37 month sentence.

Frederick Hamilton spied for Ecuador and also got 37 months.

Joseph Brown and Michael Allen both spied for the Phillipines and got 6 and 8 years respectively.

Robert Kim spied for South Korea. He got 9 years and was released after 7.

Thomas Dolce spied for South Africa and got 10 years. He was released after 5.

The maximum sentence for Pollard's offense is now 10 years. He's already served double that amount of time.

And how about Albert Sombolay. He spied for Iraq during the first Gulf War. He got 19 years. Pollard has already served longer than that.

As the Rabbi said. Nobody is saying that Pollard was innocent. However, justice demands a sentence that is proportionate to the crime. By any stretch of the imagination, Pollard has done his time and paid his debt to society.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

Rabbi Sol, If Jonathan Pollard was spying for any friendly nation other than Israel, let us say Great Britian, Canada, Australia, or Ireland and his name was let's say, Murphy instead of Pollard, I don't think anyone would have started a thread about it here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:35 PM

Well CarolC, as I pointed out, spying for Great Britain results in a 2 year sentence and release after 3 months. That's the unjust difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:42 PM

Like I said before, it looks like Pollard is still strategically usefull to the US government. That is, if the quote attributed to Ariel Sharon in Pollard's own website is accurate. Considering the fact that he put the security of this country in jeopardy with his actions, if he can be of service to the US government now in any way whatsoever, I think he should do it. Why won't Israel return the stolen materials to the US? Maybe your energies would be better spent if you were to try to persuade Ariel Sharon to return the stolen materials. Indeed, as a loyal US citizen, that should be your first priority.

On the subject of Ginsberg and the Supreme Court, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any sort of coherent narrative of what has actually taken place. I'm turning up all kinds of conflicting information in the sites I'm encountering on the subject, even among those who are in support of Pollard. One of these sites said that his appeal had reached the Supreme Court, but I'll be darned if I can figure out which of the sites is giving accurate information.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:50 PM

Perhaps the sentencing phase should be reopened in Pollard's case. Or, better still, in the other cases.

Unless...are there perhaps some underlying reasons that it shouldn't be? For instance, are there things Pollard passed on which were much, much more sensitive than was brought out in the trial?

IF he should he be released, I don't think he should be allowed to leave the US.

From my perspective, it wouldn't matter WHO you were spying for. Treason is treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM

BTW, in that Sharon interview, Pollard's wife was theorizing about why nobody in Israel has made any effort to get him released. She was saying that the usual response for the government of Israel is to make requests, write letters, and even send delegations to the US on behalf of the agent who is captured. She said that the government of Israel has done none of those things.

She thinks that the members of the Israeli government who were involved with Pollard during the time when he was committing espionage against the US are still in power (Sharon included), and that they don't want him free because they are trying to cover up their own involvement. She said they even tried to pay him off to the tune of two million dollars to leave them alone about it. This is Pollard's wife we're talking about here.

PM Sharon's "Cheap Shot" - An Interview With Esther Pollard

Sharon search in Pollard's website

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:57 PM

carolc and her consort are always oh so predictable. when it comes to islamist terrorists vs. the usa, we are the evil ones. in the case of a jew or israel, they are patriotic americans. take anything they say with not a grain, but a huge shaker, of salt. carolc and her consort are prime examples of the modern anti-semites who hide behind their opposition to israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:04 PM

He was never allowed any appeal whatsoever. There was recently another hearing in District Court (not a higher one) to try to get his new attorneys who have top security clearance access to the accusatory documents. This was denied by the judge. A new motion is now being prepared to argue that his original attorney acted incompetently in his failure to appeal the harsher sentence, before the statutory limit. This too is not expected to meet with much success. Many Jewish organizations are appealing to President Bush to commute Pollard's sentence to time already served. There is a feeling that Bush might try to use this as a pawn to garner the Jewish vote in the upcoming election. Four years ago there was hope that then President Clinton would issue a pardon. However, you all know the story. Pollard was a poor man and Mark Rich had the greenbacks to back up his case. It was a no brainer as far as Clinton was concerned. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:07 PM

Ok, here's the deal, GUEST. I'm just really sick and tired of people trying to use the Mudcat to foment hatred towards whole groups of people, whether those people would happend to be Muslims, Arabs, people in the US who are not Jewish (like, for instance the targets of this thread), and, yes, even Jews. Fortunately for me, any time someone starts a thread that is started for the purpose of fomenting hatred toward Jews here in the Mudcat, it is promptly deleted (as it should be). Unfortunately, the threads that are started to foment hatred toward certain other groups are usually not deleted.

BTW, I have also spoken up agains anti-Semitism when the need has arisen here in the Mudcat, and I will continue to do so as needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:13 PM

Carol. Who are the targets that you are referring to ? My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss an issue of equal justice under the law or the lack thereof. I had no targets in mind. I merely asked for opinions on this particular issue. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:27 PM

It's really difficult for us to have opinions when the facts of the case are so difficult to pin down. And when I posted in this thread, trying to help figure out what some of the cause and effect might be, you said that I wouldn't have posted to this thread if it wasn't about a Jew.

I'm having tremendous difficulty attributing Pollard's situation to anti-Semitism in the US. That just makes no sense at all in today's political climate. And for me to think so does not in any way make me anti-Semitic.

And I've got to say, of all of the issues that I post about here in the Mudcat, even when my views are highly controversial (as they frequently are), it is on subjects like this one that I recieve the most personal abuse from people who disagree with me. So yeah, it starts to look like hate-mongering after a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:35 PM

My Sabbath is fast approaching and I must go off line now until 10 PM tomorrow night. I expect that this thread will have grown considerably by then, and I look forward to a further discussion of the issues in this case. Shabbat Shalom    SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:37 PM

Have a good Sabbath Rabbi Sol.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

Rabbi Sol:   I have learned----anything relating to Israel sets of a feeding frenzy from the Alabama activists aka Carol C , Jack the Sailor . I guess they just sail into frenzies leaving rational discussion in the sailor's wake.

Give up.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:12 PM

Bill H, your post is exactly the kind of personal abuse I was refering to in my last post to the Rabbi.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM

Correction: second to last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Little Brother
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM

I think that he shouild at least be given a chance to appeal which has been denied him due to mistakes made by his previous attorney. Also one of the secrets he revealed to the Israelis was the nuclear reactor being built by the Iraquis which the Israelis later blew up. Can you imagine if they had nuclear capabilities. The US had that information why didn't they act on it themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM

Well, Carol at least give me credit for alliteration and nice analogies given that you have opened yourself up for exactly that type of response given that the ship's rudder is in the center position and will never change course.

I sure do hope one of you does ply the waters or the humor is lost and misplaced.

You will also note that I no longer can reply to any of your comments seriously---humor, many times, puts things into perspective for people.


By the way---Little Brother makes a point since I had seen a play about the Pollard case a while back.   Probably lost on Carol and We Sail The Ocean Blue---or other nautical screen names. Anti semitism was never the issue. Fairness in sentencing and covering up our own espionage errors was.

Anchors aweigh.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:12 PM

Bill H, on no other subject is a reponse that differs from the one expected by the one who starts the thread subject to as much dirision, condescension, and even hatred as on the subject of Israel when people question the dominant orthodoxy. I speak my mind freely on other subjects and I don't experience this sort of phenomenon. I attribute it to a need for people like you to control the debate, and to not allow any dissenting opinions to be presented.

People accuse me of dominating these discussions, but all I do is present information and opinions on the subject matter. I don't resort to personal abuse against those who disagree with me. In any argument, it takes two to tango. The one who resorts to personal abuse is the one who is trying to control the debate. Sorry if you don't like people challenging your need for dominance. Tough luck as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:45 PM

I am not dominating---as you say. Merely observing what seems to set you off.   This seems to be your favored topic---I, for one, find this topic not more important or interesting than others. But your name does seem to dominate it in the most dogmatic way. One has to wonder why---though another poster did say---and I should have listened---you wear everyone one down.

Have you figured out yet that your popularity and insights are not considered all that significant?   

Once again---anchors aweigh as I sail off to avoid irrational confrontation and polemical diatribes by you and the captain of the good ship that you both seem to inhabit in the area of our dear Southland.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:45 PM

CarolC:

This may not mean much to you, because we don't know each other, and I doubt we ever will. I've been watching mudcat grow from its inception, and was part of the predecessor groups that eventually became Mudcat, so I have been watching things here for a long, long time. There are several reasons that I seldom post, none of which are important here.

I know you only through your posts. With some I agree, with many I am neutral, and with some I RESPECTFULLY disagree. Regardless of how I feel about your posts, I have ALWAY found them to be much more reasoned than about 98% of the posts here, and the reasons for what you believe has always been given. But much like this thread, you get stones thrown your way far too often from posters who do not exhibit your logical arguments and certainly demonstrate an inferior intelligence to yours. Far too often those who are the meanest in their demeanor toward you remind me of the screaming "news" shows on Fox or the radio shows like Rush L, while your posts are like the calm, reasoned approach of PBS.

Keep up the great posting you do. There is at least one old timer who greatly admires you!

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:48 PM

The thing I appreciate about Rabbi Sol is that he doesn't ever get into that name-calling crap, or labelling anyone who disagrees him with that phony "anti-semitic" label. I wish that the hate squad would use him as a role model.

I'd rather assume that what's involved in this case wasn't actually anything to do with the US legal system being anti-Jewish, but rather that's there's been some kind of horse-trading involved. Maybe there wasn't any US spy being held by Israel for an undercover exchange.

A dirty business anyway. And barbaric.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

McG of H; Good point. Exactly what I was trying to say---

Lyle: Carol C is her own version of Limbaugh and/or Fox News. Diatribes galore----not a bad title for a program---she should go on TV with it. Can I get an agent's commission for thinking up the title?


Bill H.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:08 PM

This seems to be your favored topic

No, actually I don't enjoy this topic at all. I have no opinion on the subject of whether or not Pollard should be released, but I do have some pretty big problems with the assertion made in the opening post that Pollard is being treated unjustly just because he is Jewish. And I have an even bigger problem with the idea that it is not permissable for anyone to question the assertions that have been made in the opening post.

And I really dislike the threads on the subject of the Middle East, Arabs, Muslims, and Israel. I'd really appreciate an opportunity to just have some fun in here for a change. But threads that target whole groups of people take a lot of the fun out of the Mudcat for me. I have difficulty just sitting by watching while people are promoting hatred. Makes it diffucult for me to feel good about myself if I do that.

Thank you for your kind words, GUEST,Lyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,A Mudcat observer
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM

I really dislike the threads on the subject of the Middle East, Arabs, Muslims, and Israel. I'd really appreciate an opportunity to just have some fun in here for a change.

Have a look at any of the threads that you claim to dislike so much. You, or you in tandem with Jack the Sailor, dominante every single one of them. You give the strong impression that you are consumed by a crusade. Without you and Jack, most of those threads would come and go much quicker. This thread is no exception, you and Jack are responsible for almost half the posts.

And frankly, there have been many occasions when you have instigated the nastiness by such tactics as comparing people who disagree with your to Nazis.

If you dislike the threads, don't perpetuate them. If you want to have an opportunity to just have some fun, then take it. I assume that researching and posting on the subject of the Middle East at Mudcat is not a full time job for which you're getting a huge salary. So nobody's forcing you to spend all of your time consumed by an obsession to counter every last post of a pro-Israeli nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

i've noticed that, sooner or later, every thread that starts out about israel or palestine eventually ends up being about carolc.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

GUEST,A Mudcat Observer, have you also noticed that I have never started a single thread on any of those subjects (with the exception of one continuation thread because someone asked me to as a favor). If I was really on a crusade, I would be starting threads to express my opinions about those subjects several times a week as others do here. But I would much rather see them disappear from the Mudcat altogether, deleted just like the threads that incite hatred towards Jews.

It's the people who start the hate-mongering threads who are on the crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,A Mudcat observer
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:21 PM

Near as I can observe, there have been three recent threads that touch on The Middle East.

This one, which Rabbi-Sol started about a prison sentence for a Jewish man in the United States that seems disporportionate to his crime. No hate-mongering.

A second thread, started by a guest, about an Arab newspaper editorial calling for Arafat, a corrupt politician, to resign. No hate-mongering.

A third thread, started by Amos, that drew attention to an essay by an Israeli professor who was critical of Moslems who are silent while other Moslems, of the Hamas and Al-Qaieda variety, have murdered thousands in the name of Islam. That is not hate-mongering, that is calling attention to a very real problem in the world today. And there are leading Moslem intellectuals, Irshad Manji comes to mind, who have made exactly the same point.

In more than one thread, I've seen you attack Sharon as a Nazi and criminal, you condemn Israel for electing him as their leader. And
yet you don't condemn Arafat for his long history as a terrorist and defend him as the elected leader of the Palestinians and make the point that it is only the Palestinians who have the right to choose their leader. Well, if that's true for the Palestinians, then its true for the Israelis as well.

You have often said that the Israelis are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. That is a hate-mongering lie.

I feel very sorry for you and the fact that you do not recognize yoyr obsession for what it is.

That's all I've to say to you. I will not fall into the trap of a long argument with you. As others have observed, you just wear people down with your obsessiveness. That's it for me. I'm outta here. As Ryan Seacrest might say, "Mudcat observer, out!"

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:57 PM

Well, GUEST,A Mudcat Observer, I disagree with you on the nature of the threads in question and the posts contained within them, as well as your assesment of my posts and the accuracy of the information I present. But I imageine you knew I would do that.

So instead of trying to engage in a back and forth debate on our disagreements in those regards, I'll just quote Israel Shahak instead:

Any form of racism, discrimination and xenophobia becomes more potent and politically influential if it is taken for granted by the society which indulges in it. This is especially so if its discussion is prohibited, either formally or by tacit agreement.

Racism, discrimination, and hate speach against Arabs and Muslims is so taken for granted here in the US, people don't even see it when it's right there in front of their eyes. And if anyone tries to bring it up, they are castigated and even abused for doing so.

This thread started to became the traing wreck it is when JtS and I were accused of posting to it just because the spy in question was Jewish. And implied accusation of anti-Semitism if ever I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:20 PM

This thread started to become the train wreck that it is when Jack the Sailor introduced his ignorance and hatred in post #3:

"I think it is disgusting that the US let the Israelis grant him citizenship and take him out of the country...Special treatment for Israel is wrong and it should stop immediately."

As Alonzo quickly pointed out, Jack was lying when he said the US allowed Israel to take him out of the country.

Jack the Sailor was lying when he said the US allowed the Israelis to grant Pollard citizenship. The US has no say in what any other country chooses to make its criteria for citizenship.

Jack the Sailor was lying when he said Israel was receiving special treatment. In fact, it's been shown that Pollard (Israel's not the criminal here, Pollard is) has been treated much more harshly in this matter than any other person convicted of a similar crime.

Jack the Sailor's hate-mongering in this thread have been blatant.

And then there's this whopper that came from you:

"Maybe your energies would be better spent if you were to try to persuade Ariel Sharon to return the stolen materials. Indeed, as a loyal US citizen, that should be your first priority."

Your hate-mongering implication is that an American's loyalty is suspect because he thinks that Pollard's sentence is unjust. Talk about McCarthyism, you reek of it. Furthermore, there's an assumption in your suggestion that as an American Jew, the Rabbi has some sort of in with Ariel Sharon. There's more than a hint of anti-Semitism in that implication.

You and Jack are real pieces of work.


Why should any American's loyalty have one in the US have persuading

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:53 PM

GUEST, you need to try to understand that most people don't really know anything about the Pollard case. In fact, on one site I was looking in, they said that one of the major news outlets had done a survey and found that the vast majority of people who knew anything about the case at all thought Pollard was spying on Russia rather than on the US. Most of the websites that have any information at all on the subject are not what one would consider objective, and most of them contain conflicting information. It's not hatred that causes people to be confused by this issue. It's a lack of non-conflicting sources of information.

All of the information I posted in this thread about the Pollard case (and most of the informaion JtS was working with about it), comes from POLLARD'S OWN WEBSITE (and Rabbi Sol's initial post). Including the information about Israel not being willing to return the stolen goods. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Mr. Pollard. This includes the information that Pollard got the life sentance because Israel isn't willing to return the stolen goods. And if anyone has a problem with the US government holding Pollard for that reason, their loyalty to this country should be called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

maybe some should gather up what carolc and jack the sailor have had to say about the us government, about president bush and other leaders, and print it up and send copies to homeland security and the fbi. then we'll see who's "loyal" and who's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:05 AM

"Pollard's own website," CarolC. The guy's been in solitary confinement since long before Al Gore invented the web. They don't let inmates in solitary have websites. Just another of your lies and distortions.

Oh! You mean a website in support of Pollard. That's something entirely different than "Pollard's own website."

Good night Carol. Give Jack a kiss for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM

Rabbi-Sol, an US citizen comes on here and accuses the government of this country of Anti semitism.

So are you saying the government of the US has locked up this man and punished him cruely and unusually because Caspar Weinberger, whose father was a Jew, hates Jews so much that he has singled out this one man for special punishment?

There couldn't be another reason? Maybe one that has to do with national security? Come on people!!?? Sorry Rabbi-sol this story just does not pass my smell test.

As a Rabbi, I understand your desire to stick up for Jews, but I don't like to see that applied to traitors. Especially traitors who spy for Israel. The apperance of conflict of interest does Mr. Pollard no good and it also reinforces negative stereotypes.

I think that having the government of Israel and all of these Jewish groups screaming for his release is probably not doing him any favor, the message sent to other potential spies would be disasterous. Maybe if y'all would let up, and maybe condemn him for spying on your own home country, maybe promise not to give him a parade, you might give him and the government a chance to work things out.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:41 AM

Isn't someone here to delete things like this?

From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

maybe some should gather up what carolc and jack the sailor have had to say about the us government, about president bush and other leaders, and print it up and send copies to homeland security and the fbi. then we'll see who's "loyal" and who's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:51 AM

Justice for Jonathan Pollard: The official Website authorized by Jonathan & Esther Pollard (http://www.jonathanpollard.org/)