BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,To Don Firth from Jeremy Boles
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM

I am looking for Don Firth who took classes at ECC - Fort Knox. Email me at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM

You seem to be cherry picking your polls Larry
read it and weep Larry K.

The USA today Poll puts Kerry at 50-46 with a very small sample of 763 voters

The NewsWeek Poll puts Kerry ahead 49-42

and there is some very good news for Kerry in the USATODAY poll,


Views of Kerry's personal characteristics and leadership improved; views of Bush didn't change much. Bush's edge in handling terrorism was shaved to 12 points from 18. In a switch, Kerry now is trusted more to handle the responsibilities of commander in chief, by 51%-46%.

Kerry's military service is seen as a plus. A 52% majority says it would help him be an effective president. More than one in four say it makes them more likely to vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

Nerd- In the latest poll Bush is ahead of Kerry 50-46.   Kerry slipped 1 point in ratings while Bush rose 5 points.   USA Today headline siad bounce from convention was lowest in history.    I guess the american people disagree with the pundits you quoted.

PS:   The pundits I quoted were from CNBC- not fox.    I was at the Gin Blossoms concert and got home at 11:00.   The oreilly rerun was on fox so i turned on CNBC.    W

What a surprise.   The liberal media and Jack the Sailor loved the speech.   Would never have predicted it.   Based on the results from the American public I hope Kerry gives more of them.

PS- only 26 seconds in the speech about his 20 year record.    For those of you not good at math- that is about 1 second per year.   If I had his record I wouldn't want to talk about it either.

Keeping it real and staying out of touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

Bushisms all, guest. Surely you are on their payroll... your brand of negativity will never evoke positive change.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:55 PM

I said Gore caved because it gave him a strategy by which he could discredit the left wing of the party AND the progressive movement that supported Nader in 2000, and thereby neutralize the left wing that they felt cost them the election.

The left DID NOT vote for Gore in 2000, and had they not been able to successfully demonize Nader and scare half the progressives away from Nader and the Greens this election year, while co-opting and recasting themselves as progressives they most certainly would go down to defeat this November. They had plenty of progressive presidential candidates this year to "prove" how progressive the Democratic party is: Carol Mosley Braun, Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, and even though Howard Dean is no progressive, he did manage to get progressives to sign on to his campaign.

The progressive left has now backed themselves into a bargain with the devil corner. All those who were vehemently anti-war now have to live with a pro-war hawk for their man. That causes some dissonance for them, as can be seen this week in all it's glorious dysfunctional splendor on the Democratic leaning news sites like Common Dreams and AlterNet, where the Nader bashing has been most intense.

So now, they are risking alienating all those nice millions who came out and demonstrated last year against the Iraq war for being duplicitous and not standing by their principles. The just look like the mealy mouth weasels that they are--and I include all the media darlings in this: Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins, etc. All of them have harangued Nader mercilessly and been dupes for the Democratic Leadership Council. It worked for them. Now all those people in the peace movement have to either go against their most deeply held values and do the politically expedient thing and vote for a man who stood before the nation this week and told the world he was sending MORE troops to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:23 PM

I do not post annonomously. If I mistakenly loose my cookie due to computer errors on my end, I clarify the vagary as soon as realize the mishap. You are a fine one to be accusing here... Once again, your logic is non-sequitor... So what's up, Doc? Run out of carrots? ;^)

ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:13 PM

Hey ya... pest ghoster! I've read every word you've written in this thread with a modicum of moderation in my muddy mind's eye... and I'm proud to say to you here and now, since you thrash and object to so much that I revere, thanks for thrashing me too, at least I'm in excellent company!

You go girl!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM

I'm the one who doesn't reply to or usually read anon Guests.

It feels to much like fighting with a blindfold on.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: RichardP
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Guest,

You have seriously undermined your credibility in your posty suggesting that Gore gave in supinely in order to open a new route to blame Nader (and you).

Firstly you cannot possibly square your jaundiced view of "Republicat" politicians with a suggestion that any of them would surrender a chance at the highest office in the land just so that he can beat you and your like over the head. It just does not fit in with your carricature of their characters. Furthermore, you have given no indication of the constitutional routes that would be open to them to challenge the Supreme Court ruling. It is just that - Supreme. Maybe it is as much a weakness of the constitution as it is a strength. It is certainly not a supreme example of the supremacy of democracy.

Time for you to sharpen up your act and ensure that you are internally consistent and credible.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

I believe Gore and the Democratic party acquiesced as quickly and completely as they did (don't forget, the House Black Congressional Caucus and some of their supporters did not join that acquiescence), first and foremost because they knew they couldn't win. They knew Bush was in.

They also were very smart strategically to do it. By doing it, they were able to blame Nader, and by extension, the progressive wing of the Democratic party and the progressive coalition that was forming in 2000 that Nader took advantage of, and beat them over the head with it. They only appear to have acquiesced though, because everyone knows they've been fanning both the "Hate Nader" forces and the "Hate Bush" forces flames since 2000. Funding them too. They also cynically took advantage of the rightward swing of the population in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraq war, by shouting down, demonizing, isolating, and (when all that failed) locking up all progressive left voices of dissent. Don't forget, they too supported the Patriot Act. The Iraq war. The Bush tax cuts. They did all they needed to do to start getting the big money flowing back their way for 2004.

This year, they will likely outspend the Republicans, who weren't quick enough to figure out the 527 organization loophole and drive their Brinks trucks through it first.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM

Speaking as a foreigner, one of the weak points in this -- er, discussion -- is one of the guests' assumptions that the whole raison d'etre of the Democrats at the moment is their anger at having had the 2000 election stolen from them. This seems implausible: what amazed everyone else was how easily the Democrats (Al Gore in particular) threw their hand in -- as if it was crucial to back the President, whoever he was. It is hard to imagine the Republicans doing the same if the Supreme Court had given the election to Gore. We would be knee deep in conspiracies every day on every television network (apart from the obvious conspiracies that did occur, and which remain surprisingly of little concern). Letting this sort of thing get away reminds one of how strangely supine liberals can be when faced with ruthlessness. The great Arab historian Ibn Arabi had interesting things to say about this in his view of history as alternating between weak city liberals and vicious barbarian bandits (Ayn Rand had a similar perspective, which seems to have operated as a perfect guidebook for the neo-cons). Perhaps it requires years in the wilderness to rediscover your backbone.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM

It's about disingenuous people like you making statements suggesting that only Kerry voters love their country, like you did in your first post to this thread, which I quote:

"Love your country, vote FOR Kerry."

Or the disingenuousness of your outright lie, that anyone who doesn't vote for Kerry is what you keep calling "bushmen" like you did in this statement:

"...and now for the tsunami of negative attacks from the nay-faring bushmen... "

And here, accusing me (referring to me as 'pest ghoster'), a supporter of Nader and Cobb, of working for Bush in this statement (you wouldn't be the Mudcat member that keeps posting anonymously making the same claim in so many of these threads, would you Thomas the Rhymer?):

"The words are empty rhetoric, the attitude is cliche, and the purpose is pure 'Bush re-election commitee'."

And of course, third party politics and the progressive movement is your true target, oh reasonable and nice and loyal to the status quo Thomas the Rhymer, as we can tell from this statement of yours:

"Third party politics are only valid when the civil liberties of the American people are guarenteed... when the Constitution is being upheld... when the press acts with the clear intention of opening the public mind... when our mess is cleaned up in Iraq... when the Alies we once had come back to our side because we listen to them and act in concert with them in the world arena...

...and when the American public is resonably informed on the complex issues we face... and the true cost of pandemic ignorance."

In other words, NEVER!

We've heard all that lame ass "it isn't safe to be progressive right now, but we promise, if you help us win THIS ONE ELECTION, we'll be progressive LATER" from the Republicratic party before.

In 2000 from Gore/Lieberman.

In 1996 from Clinton/Gore

In 1992 from Clinton/Gore

In 1988 from Dukakis/Bentsen

In 1984 from Mondale/Ferraro

In 1980 from Carter/Mondale

See the pattern, there?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM

Mick ...Sorry took so long to respond.

Iv been on Mudcat well over a year now, and never been called a "troll" before.
Im a regd. member, only have one Mudcat personna and write as I feel.

If I were a "troll",I certainly would not be "trolling " for you, as I dont find your middle class ideas of much interest one way or the other .
Leaving aside your militaristic past, the fact that you were a Union organiser,means the Capitalist System is your "raison d'etre".

Stop shootin....Gun and mouth ,and start thinkin....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

I have never said or implied that I don't read your posts, 'pesty'... I'm interested in this thread, and sadly... your posts are in it. What are you on about, really... I mean this is pathetic!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:45 PM

Thomas the Rhymer, for a guy who never reads anonymous guests' posts, you sure seem to know a lot about what I say in mine.

Actually Don, I know I come off sounding judgemental to the people I'm criticizing, especially when my words hit close to home for them.

Why would that surprise anyone? There is, after all, plenty of people being judgmental about me in this thread too, now isn't there? Many more of you too, which isn't really fair now is it?

But I'm not complaining. I'll continue using the information I possess, my writing skill, and my logic to discuss the issues here. What people say about me is irrelevant. It's the opinions and the information exchange that count in discussions like this, not the personalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM

Sorry. Tossed my cookies when I shut down last night and forgot to log in today.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

GUEST, aren't you being just a little judgmental here? [Rim Shot!!]

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM

"...the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions."

well, I'm glad to be in such exhalted company....and I HAVE "some damn solutions"....but I don't post them here 'seriously', because they fall into the same class as did Will Rogers' when a reporter once asked him 'what to do about the German subs' in WWII..."That's easy, boil the ocean", said Will. When the reporter started to sputter and ask "how in the world he proposed to do THAT", Will said, "Oh, you don't understand..I'm just the Idea Man...we have technical people who'd have to work out the details."
...and that is the way of it...my training is in Philosophy, and my impulse in these discussions is to discern which arguments are resonable and coherent and ultimately, useful...as opposed to those which are based on false premises, bad logic, personal axes and animosities, impractical & short-sighted techniques...etc. It is NOT a precise science, but it can usually sort out the wheat from the chaff.
   Trouble is, people don't WANT to conduct meta-arguments about their positions, they WANT to yell, accuse, promote, dare, shame, tease, ridicule and otherwise put down positions which differ from their own! The situation is similar to the definition of Theology I saw once.."The finding of bad reasons for what one already believes on faith."

A lot of this discussion boils down to Pragmatism vs. Idealism...."lets vote for Kerry right now, as the lesser of two evils, and see what can be done on the grass roots level later" OR "let all sane men vote Green, or Libertarian...or Anarchist...and SHOW the bastards we aren't all taken in by their false promises"

NEITHER side usually considers the long-term solutions and strategies of it all...but I'll tell you, the Right-Wing Conservatives are doing better at it right now! They are Gerrymandering, packing the courts, designing single-issue topics to lure voters with narrow views and refining the art of making the other guy respond to spurious charges.

I'm sorry...I don't HAVE detailed plans to "make it all better immediately"...unless you grant ME unlimited power to rule by decree for a few years! No?...I didn't think that would fly. My platform would involve total re-organization of the voting process, (including the choosing of candidates), reform of the court system, wholesale changes in the tax system, ...and stuff done to the educational system that would leave your jaw on the floor! Add to all that many manditory restrictions on immigration and serious population reduction, and you'll see why I don't bother to run for office..*grin*...all I do from my position and at my age, is try to make points about the best Pragmatic choices we can make from the REAL choices available.....and KNOWING that I'm unlikely to change very many minds...here or RT, I also use this forum to hone my own thinking and to learn from the rest of you about possible directions & attitudes.

oh, and unlike some "Guests", I also post my name and laugh & joke and follow the folk music threads and MEET the good folks here and share life.

I personally, would REALLY appreciate it if "guest from Minnesota" would USE something like that to be sure the other ranting "GUSTS" (typo...I think I'll leave it...*grin*) don't get mixed up in my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

Dear Guest:

You have demonstrated one too many times that you don't know what you're talking about, no matter how passionately you talk.

Your carping has led me to this place before, and I waffled on breaking any link with you because occasionally I see a spark of intelligence and maybe an ideal or two peeking out of the clouds of harangue. But I am done with this crap. Don't bother trying to fool me a third time.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM

Pest Ghoster... you are easily as elitist as you say Amos is... but you are much more negative, and your views are simply nihilistic... please... think good thoughts. The 'I'm a mean and agressive (never passive agressive) burn the establishment, self agrandizing radical' trip is a looney toons misadventure all your own. Teamwork goes against grain of the pain you are nurturing...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

And here is a direct quote from the first post of another thread I shall not name, that exemplifies to a T what I am talking about regarding pathological hatred of Bush and a middle class values passive aggressive way of putting it "nicely":

"Anyone interested in a great article bashing G.W.Bush in the most polite & civilized terms?"

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:05 PM

"Well, you took the test and got less than a passing grade."

Another serious problem with the middle class that the working class and poor don't share: they have a lot of education, yet remain ignorant and ill informed by choice.

And Amos, you are smug and condescending to people here all the time. Your remarks: "I do think there is something wrong with espousing neediness" and "I have seen lots of need in my life. I did not stay that way" is a classic textbook example of the hatred of people in need I'm talking about. Classic.

And the traits I speak of are as common in Basra as Cincinnati. The difference is what can people of conscience and integrity who transcend those traits do there, as here, to bring about the needed changes to raise our societies up and with it, human beings treatment of one another.

If you live in Basra right now, there is precious little you can do to effect insitutional change because the institutions are in tatters thanks to the US led "Coalition of the Willing". Just as if you are among the poor or working poor of Cincinnati, there is precious little you can do to effect institutional change there because you don't have the power to influence those institutions. You may, if you are one of the lucky ones, be able to better yourself, hopefully your family too. But even that is a pretty tall order for most people who live at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Oh, I forgot to mention another trait I hate about middle class people like you Amos. A complete, utter lack of compassion and empathy for human suffering, unless it is you and yours doing the suffering. Then there is no expense too great to save you from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:52 AM

Well, you took the test and got less than a passing grade.

IF you think smugness and condescension are values -- especially for me -- you got two more thoughts coming. I don't hate people in need, either. I do think there is something wrong with espousing neediness, but I have seen lots of need in my life. I did not stay that way, though.

IF you're talking about the culture as a whole, yeah, I hear you; the traits you list are unpleasant; but I think they are as likely to be found in the streets of Basra as of Cincinnatti.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

The middle class values are:

conformity

indifference

greed

smug and arrogant

overly complacent

cowardice

passive/aggressive behavior as "normal and healthy"

pathological hatred of people in need (the disabled, the poor, the socially and politically disadvantaged, people in need of more education, better health care, etc)

That is a pretty good start of the values of most (not all) of the middle class people I know that are objectionable. Of course, everyone one of them would deny they are anything like that. They would tell me they are just like me, and they too are progressive.

You paint a nice, pretty, innocuous one dimensional picture of the middle class and of yourself, Amos. It isn't a realistic picture. I know that the above behaviors and values are just as prevalent among the working class and poor as it is the middle class. I know that there are good people who are middle class, and even a few good people who are wealthy (although those numbers seem to diminish pretty dramatically among the upper classes).

I am talking about the qualities, behaviors, values of the mainstream majority and the effect those behaviors and values have upon the dominant Anglo American culture. Intelligent people know there is a lot of racism among people of color, class bigotry among the working class and poor, etc.

The only real difference between working class and middle class is who much power do people wield in our society. There really isn't much the lower classes can do to bring about the needed political, social, and economic changes that would make us a much better society because they exercise no control whatsoever over the institutions. The middle class does. The middle class could, if it chose to, revolutionize our nation for the better, literally overnight.

But they don't. And they don't because they are conformist, indifferent, greedy, arrogant and smug, cowardly and over complacent, overly passive aggressive towards anyone who displeases them for any reason, and because they hate disabled people, poor people, people of different races and religions than themselves (regardless of their race, ethnicity, or religion), and anyone who needs them to provide care for them--like our children and elders, new immigrants to the US, etc and certainly for those rat bastard Arabs and Muslims (the current group most loathed by the US middle class). That is why we are at war with the Arab/Muslim Middle East.

John Kerry has no intention of ending that war on the Arab/Muslim world. He, just like Bush, will carry on with the imperial Anglo crusades.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

I'm in a swing state: Minnesota.

Now, the question is why aren't all of you haranguing the people who have said they too will vote Green or for Nader, like Bobert. I do see you being condescending and patronizing to him on occassion too.

The answer is, there is personal animosity towards me by the Mudcat royals, as akenaton has noted, that has gone on for a long time because I don't share Big Mick's views on the military, essentially. I'm not militarisitic enough for him, and refuse to worship at the altar of "our troops".

If my vote is so irrelevant there Richard, why are people here so damn concerned with trying to get me to see things their way, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: RichardP
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM

Since this thread has largely deteriorated into a harangue over the justification for Guest voting green, it might be useful to know whether she lives in a genuine swing state or in a safe state where the result is already decided beyond all reasonable doubt. If the latter, she should be allowed to go ahead and vote with her perception of her conscience since her vote is politically irrelevant. If she is in a swing state, she needs to consider the consequences of a Bush victory in that state by a margin that is less than the Green vote in that state especially if that state is the Florida of 2004. In that case she and her like would have put Bush back. She would have ensured an ultra-conservative supreme court for the foreseeable future. She would have undermined everything that she holds politically deirable and worse than all these she would then live through the next four years in total denial of her responsibility.

Empty gestures are worth the content of any empty pot - nothing.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:31 AM

Oops ...conscientious behavior... it's too late for this boy. G'nite...

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:25 AM

As far as I'm concerned, pest ghoster is emulating again... The words are empty rhetoric, the attitude is cliche, and the purpose is pure 'Bush re-election commitee'. The democratic movement that is happening here, with Kerry's nomination, is clear to the American public, and the world at large. The US government is going down a very dangerous path, and we must turn back. We have to backtrack, and we need a centrist oriented politician to do this. A guy with a keen appreciation of conscietious behavior. There is a certain 'health' that a democracy must have in order to attain the vigorous societal growth that radical positive change requires. Third party politics are only valid when the civil liberties of the American people are guarenteed... when the Constitution is being upheld... when the press acts with the clear intention of opening the public mind... when our mess is cleaned up in Iraq... when the Alies we once had come back to our side because we listen to them and act in concert with them in the world arena...

...and when the American public is resonably informed on the complex issues we face... and the true cost of pandemic ignorance.

Kerry is exactly who we need right now, and guest's mock radical performance is just making this all the more obvious...

Small steps in the right direction sounds good right about now...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

Guest:

As far as that goes, what is this definition of Middle Class values that you keep accusing others of?

The middle-class people I know strive to live peacefully, contribute value, earn the wherewithal to survive, raise their kids the best they can see to do, support various churches or not, pay their tithes and taxes to town county and State, get laid once in a while and have friends. They try to do right in the world. What is it you think they should be doing that they are not?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM

The entire country is REALLY tired of hearing the Bush bashing that is de riguer at Mudcat. I started speaking up about it for the first time after Nader announced his candidacy when the primaries ended. But the rest of the country is REALLY sick of the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions.


GUEST, you have serious delusions of adequacy. The country is REALLY sick of us "republicrats" and REALLY appreciates you greens, huh? That's why 96% will vote for either dems or repubs, and 4% if you're lucky will vote Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:46 PM

The problem isn't with where they are at on the political spectrum Amos. The problem is where they get their funding.

Voting for Kerry ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT get big money out of office.

I think you must be insane, Amos. For a smart guy, you are pretty damn ignorant of the facts. But then, self-serving Republicrats for Middle Class Values like yerself are very seletively ignorant when it comes to politics anyway.

And BTW, I do a lot more than just vote every 4 years Amos. I'm an inner city public school educator. I am an active governing board member for my housing coop. I am an active member of my food coop. I also volunteer here and there all over the place as my time and energy and schedule allows. I donated money and/or volunteered time this year so far to Nader, the Greens, the bus drivers strike fund, Democracy Now, Center for Victims of Torture, and KFAI radio. I am an organic gardener. So I do lots of stuff, and I don't feel guilty about a thing. As far as I'm concerned, voting Green isn't intellectual masturbation. Voting Republicrat is.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

I should say, if Kerry can win with at least a 10+ point victory AND have Congress change from Republican to Democratic control, even marginally, then the Democrats might be able to declare a modest, temporary victory and get on with repairing the damage done in the last 30 years under both Democratic and Republican administrations. But that is ONLY if Democrats are emboldened to effect true change. If it is back to the Democratic dominant status quo we had for most of the last century, we are truly fucked.

Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:22 PM

Well, your stuffed-shirt intellectual criticism is pretty easy, just wave arms and tongue in equal vehement measure.

What I see is denigration. What I see is criticism without any positive approach. Oh -- except for voting for the Green party on principle. Good luck with it.

That's one vote that won't be part of the Richter scale. And probably some others that haver been dissuaded by the high-falarum politick-thinking from your camp.

At this point I only see one real short term goal, which is getting the goddamned big money out of office. Your branding them all with the same fancy label as Republicrats because they are both too close to the center for your tastes just does them a disservice. But that's what you do best, is disservices.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:08 PM

"The voting system is not "capitalist", but republican (lower case R) or representative. Capitalism is an economic methodology."

Doh!

Amos, you know what I said about you middle class liberals not getting it?

It is dangerous because everyone knows that the Anybody But Bush mentality is really just Democratic sour grapes over being robbed in the last election. Kerry is right about the Bush bashing in that respect. The entire country is REALLY tired of hearing the Bush bashing that is de riguer at Mudcat. I started speaking up about it for the first time after Nader announced his candidacy when the primaries ended. But the rest of the country is REALLY sick of the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions.

Voting for another Republicrat doesn't seem like much of a solution to most Americans. Which is why we are in grave danger right now. With Kerry as the Republicrat candidate, the big danger is EVERYBODY STAYS HOME. He or Bush squeaks in on a 51/49 vote, and it is hostile, open warfare between the Republicans and Republicrats for another 4 years while the rest of country watches "Amish in the City", drinks heavy, and the domestic violence rates go through the roof.

Unless there is a landslide victory by Kerry in November, the polarized dynamic won't change, and it will be at least another four years of dealing with polarizing personalities instead of the issues that desperately need attention. Which is just what the global capitalists want. Fewer voters--but ESPECIALLY fewer working class and poor voters.

So long as the Republicrats for Middle Class Values keep nominating Republicrats for Middle Class Values to run for office in the US, the working class and poor voters stay home, The same is being done by the Anglocentric global plutocracy in Britain, the US, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. The Anglo plutocrats are currently beating out the European Union plutocracry, (especially with those juicy reconstruction contracts in Iraq, not to mention all that Iraqi oil that used to be in the hands of the EU plutocracy) and that is what this whole "international" spat with Bush/Blair has been about.

You all think it is just a coincidence that the Coalition of the Willing was an Anglo coalition? That the Iraq invasion worked like a charm to beat out the EU coalition in getting it's hands on Saddam's oil?

The global capitalist ruling elite orchestrates all this. Which is why they keep rigging the voting systems in the US, Canada, Australia, and Britain. They haven't succeeded yet in New Zealand, France, and Germany where there are strong currents fighting to keep the capitalists from completely taking over. The Russians have organized crime syndicates running the show, which also prevents the Anglo or EU global capitalist plutocrats from gaining a foothold there.

But the Anglo global capitalist plutocrats are winning so far, and one of the main ways they do it is by peddling this rotten to the core political systems running in the US, Britain, Canada, and Australia. So long as they can keep it running without any changes, the effect is to have a Saudi-like political realities on the ground (a repressive plutocracy with no elections), with the capitalist Anglocentric plutocracy, with the illusion of democratic elections.

The only way a Democratic victory in the US will be a good thing is if the Democrats defeat the Republicans in the presidential AND congressional races, and win the White House by a HUGE margin--at least 10+ points. That would be the equivalent of an 8.0 earthquake in political terms in the US.

If Kerry can pull that off on his own without any catastrophe or crisis occuring to sweep the Republicans out (like a major terrorist attack or something), I'll eat ALL my words. But I ain't holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Deda
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

I loved the Kerry speech, and the entire convention. I watched it every night, although I missed a few bits, including Theresa H-Kerry -- but I already knew I liked her a lot, for all the reasons that the press tend to piss on her. She's a smart, free-thinking, independent, strong, unafraid woman -- that'll get her plenty of terrible press, and my admiration. The whole week was politically very encouraging and hopeful for me. I was sorry that the serious war protesters were shut out, and that there were efforts made to make the Kucinich and Dean delegates changes sides -- but I was pleased that a number of them didn't. I am extremely grateful to Dean and Kucinich for broadening the debate, for carrying the message that there really still is a LEFT wing in American politics, the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

The polls still show the Rs and Ds neck and neck, but that's because they only poll the likely voters. The Dems, at least in Colorado, are making a serious, organized effort to register and bring out the UNlikely voters (renters, college kids, single mothers, Latinos, non-English speakers, et al). Colorado, which has historically been a solid republican state, is now in play. I'm tentatively optimistic that the polls are seriously wrong nation-wide.

Brucie, there is an excellent reason why nobody responds to your request for some of Bush's positive accomplishments. It is not that we don't understand the question. And your posts ARE arriving legibly, comprehensibly. See if you can guess why there are no answers.
Hint: Try asking people to list their favorite purple cows.

Guest, please do vote for the Greens.
PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 03:10 PM

I also voted for Dean, GUEST. I organized and volunteered and donated to to his campaign, too. But he didn't make it. Such is life.

I'm intrigued by your partner's argument:

My partner, who has the one and only rationalization for voting for Kerry (which incidentally doesn't include anything to do with the war), does make sense, but the strategy is extremely high risk. The rationalization is we need to "throw the bums out" at the election, because when the politicians are guilty of such egregious misconduct, in a democracy, the only recourse you have (if you can't get them prosecuted legally) is to vote them out. So my partner's rationalization is, we need to vote them out regardless of who is opposing them. However, my parter does concede that when this is done, it needs to be done overwhelmingly and decisively. We agree that if Kerry just barely squeaks into office in a 51/49 scenario, we are screwed, and the rationalization and strategy will have turned out to be very, very wrong

Why so dangerous? Why does the sky fall if Bush loses 49-51?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM

Mick, you are beginning to appear pathologically obsessed with your struggle to denigrate our eloquent Guest. Take a few deep breaths and give it a rest.

FWIW, my analysis concurs, and I agree, with everything she says EXCEPT that I'm convinced that this time, just this once, we can't afford not to vote for the one candidate, warts and all, who can defeat Bush.

See my thread "The Speech that defined Kerry" for an interesting transcript of an address he gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 02:30 PM

Ake, I admire your nerve .. in trying to bait someone who has far greater depth than you using any number or criteria. Won't work. And I would guess that if you asked Pete, he would tell you to vote for Kerry. I already know Frank Hamilton would.

Yes, I believe positive changes were made, and we were well on the way to a better society. But we overstepped, and the average person left us. When that happened, we got our butts kicked around and couldn't buy an election. We allowed the adversaries to define us. We lost the House, we lost the Senate, and when we won the Presidency and the House we then lost it midterm. In doing so, we lost much in the way of progressive legislation.

By the way, don't mistake the fact that I choose not to debate the finer points with GUEST as being out of my league. I might be, but I don't think so. I don't debate it, because I reject the whole premise she builds her arguments on. I feel she is wrong, period.

Ake, you really need to tighten up your trolling technique. It is transparent as hell.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:38 PM

Mick ...I admire your nerve....In trying to patronise someone of much greater depth both in politics and humanity.
It occured to me while re-reading this thread, What side do you think our great folk song heros like Pete Seeger, Woody,Leadbelly ect would come down on?
I think they would support the man with vision, not those who continue with a status quo that turns human beings into automatons,
Cannon fodder ,on the treadmill from cradle to grave.
Can you say honestly that this society has improved since your youth?
Some of us may be better off financially,but at what a price to our basic humanity. We are simply numbers, conditioned not to see, not to think, and not to love others or the wonderful planet we live on.
If people dont start to examine themselves and the system that enslaves them it will be too late....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM

The voting system is democratic by definition. The political system is less so. It would be better if the popular sources of information weren't all controlled by commerce.

CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC are all ratings driven, they cover the process as if it were a horse race rather than a way to set our goals and priorities for the next four years.

Fox, claiming the "conservative", "America love it or leave it" audience for itsself panders to that point of view.

PBS is careful not to offend its donors, people of means and big corporation.

Look at all of the commercials from lobbyists like ADM on the Sunday morning political shows. Why is there subsidized corn in nearly every processed food you can buy in this country?

Politics in this country is using large amounts of money to obatin obscenely large amounts of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM

There is only one way to get the larger changes, election reform, lobbyist reform... that is to join one of the parties and work from within. Remember that most of Kerry's platform has been taken from planks built by Dean from the left and Clarke from the right. Plus a heaping helping of Edward's positive approach. The Green party doesn't have a chance to develop a broad base because the other parites will simply adopt their good ideas. Kerry's platform represents a blending od the positions of a very broad group of people. Not enough dovishness for Kucinich not enough fight for Zel Miller. But, by far the party is together, partly because they want to win the election, partly because they want America to have a chance at the unity it had after 9/11.

Democrats can say all they want about Bush's policies. It just makes him dig in harder, but when the people on his own side of the aisle speak up, he listens.

If you want the Republicans to tone down their extreemism, join the Republicans and preach moderation. Same deal for the Democrats. Thats the only way to change things. Third parties have the same effect as special interest groups, they cannot weild political power.

Nader was more effective when he was writing books and leading lawsuits. The Greens are more effective when they educate than when they campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 12:47 PM

Your view of yourself and your importance is far greater in your own mind than in anyone elses.


I think this is true of most people, at least up to a point.

I concur with your admiration, Mick. And witht he caveats.

The voting system is not "capitalist", but republican (lower case R) or representative. Capitalism is an economic methodology.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 12:01 PM

You know, if you weren't such an asshole, you could actually score some points. But you have this vision of yourself as the saviour of all us ignorant people. That is why you will never be anything more than an angry voice at the fringe. Your view of yourself and your importance is far greater in your own mind than in anyone elses.

I am willing to concede some things in the debate. I will concede that if there is a divide that separates the Republicans from the Democrats, it is small enough that the main players can shake hands across the fence. But what you just don't get is that is how the majority of folks like it. So in order to effect social change in our society, it must be done in small steps and over the long term. That is, unless you are advocating violent overthrow and takeover of the system. But unless you are willing to subjugate the average folks in this country, your way will not work.

One thing I want to make clear. I admire the principal of your stand. And you have intelligence and the ability to express it. But you are a jerk, with a martyr's complex. I have seen your type before. They are usually dangerous to those around them because they can't see or don't care, about the practical effect of their politic. You are willing to destroy people to save them. Historically, recent and ancient, has shown that folks that share your view cause more misery than improvement in society.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:38 AM

We aren't stupid Jeri. We know we aren't ever going to get everything we want. We are intelligent enough to have a strategy that counters the propaganda, that gets people working in the right direction in small ways that cumulatively have big effects. We realize that the most important work we do has absolutely nothing to do with the capitalist political system.

We do work outside the system. We have no delusions about being the winner take all in the capitalist system. Our strategy is to create a parallel world that will one day reach a critical mass--not of voters, but of human beings doing what is best for themselves AND their neighbors AND their enemies AND the planet.

This is so far beyond those of you who can only think within the narrow confinces of the conventional middle class two party capitalist paradigm, not to mention as far as the next election, that we know you don't get it. But that's OK. With people like me haranguing you, and refusing to cut you any slack, as well as the example of alternative life styles that so many of us are living, you'll get the email eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Peter T...Greens....oh, the irony.

It comes down to how badly you want change, and whether ego is more important. People who are way outside the center, in a small minority, are never going to get everything they want. If they're willing to compromise, there's a chance they'll make an improvement, even if it's a small one. If they hold out for everything they want...it ain't gonna happen. Not all at once. But folks who don't care much about making things better if it means being flexible are more concerned with feeling morally superior than making things better.

I voted for Dean, but he didn't make it. I'll vote for Kerry, because he's better than Bush, and yes, he DOES actually have a chance of being elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:22 AM

The United States is a great country Mick, I know that. I've travelled a lot outside the US, and I know how good we have it, and how bad others have it.

But those who have it bad--and I mean really bad--are counting on us to hold the global capitalists in check, so they can get some breathing space on this planet, and hopefully survive and be able to give their kids a much better future than the one the global middle class stole from them.

I could give a shit about you and your cozy ass Big Mick. I'm voting Green to keep AFL CIO monsters like yourself from fucking up the world any worse than you already have.

I'm done being nice to you Democratic liberals bastards drunk on power, greed, and rage.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:15 AM

Oh and Peter, I think you made a stupid mistake in your post there. I'm sure you are aware, since you are such an intelligent person, that the US electoral process isn't a democratic voting process. It is a capitalist voting process.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM

You've done pretty well by this system. It allows you to throw out your stuff, and never have to really do anything. But, hey, it gets you attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:08 AM

And when that doesn't work Peter, you can give us Greens a call.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:59 AM

Hate may not be much of a positive motivator, but it sure is a great negative motivator. Voting the stupid bastard out is the only intelligent thing that mass democratic voting does.
yours,

Peter T.