BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet

Subject: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

The left knows without a doubt, that we will be fighting, not voting for John Kerry. If you thought the anti-war's effort to put a million people in the streets in 2003 was impressive, just wait. We know the "Anybody But Bush" campaign is simply this year's version of the "Lesser of Two Evils" strategy, but MUCH MORE hyped up on hate.

From Todd Chretien (Nader/Camejo 2004 coordinator for Northern California):

"Unfortunately, many "sunshine patriots" are demanding that the anti-war movement that put over a million people in the streets in the spring of 2003 now line up behind a pro-war candidate. This is especially wrong-headed timing because the majority of the country is turning against the war and occupation. Medea Benjamin, Peter Coyote, Daniel Ellsberg, Tom Hayden, Barbara Ehrenreich, Norman Solomon and many other liberal and progressive leaders tell us that a Kerry regime "would be less dangerous" than Bush. This may or may not be true. Remember, it was LBJ who escalated the war in Vietnam, not Nixon. But, even IF Kerry is "less dangerous," he will be MORE capable of wreaking havoc on Iraq, Palestine, Venezuela, abortion, gay rights, civil rights and unions IF we sacrifice our political movement to getting behind him.

Tragically, rather than building on the great start we made in 2000 when Ralph Nader won 2.7 million votes for peace and justice, many of the very same people who helped that effort are trying to wreck it this time around. Rather than encouraging the Green Party and all anti-war organizations, unions, and civil rights groups to unite for a progressive campaign aiming to get millions of votes, they are condoning, if not actually leading, a campaign to villify as "Republican dupes" those movement organizers and ordinary people who believe Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo are right to fight for the chance to carry our mobilization for peace and justice into the ballot box."

From the Socialist Equality Party's presidential candidate Bill Van Auken:

"The Democratic National Convention in Boston this week provided the most powerful refutation of claims that the party's victory in November will yield a change in course from Washington's present policy of military aggression abroad and attacks on fundamental social and democratic rights at home.

The speeches delivered by the party's presidential candidate John Kerry and his running mate John Edwards, in particular, spelled out in no uncertain terms the sharp lurch to the right by the Democratic Party over the past year as the US ruling oligarchy has conditioned it for the potential assumption of power.

Both speeches were directed not so much to the cheering delegates or television viewers as to the financial-corporate elite and its media representatives. Their rhetoric was aimed at reassuring this select audience that a Kerry-Edwards administration will deny any influence to the antiwar sentiments to which elements of the party appealed during this year's primaries, and that it will make no attempt to resurrect the "liberal" reformist policies with which the Democrats were identified during an earlier period.

The convention's glorification of militarism and the party's subservience to big business were summed up in the presidential candidate's opening line: "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty."

And so is the progressive left. John Kerry made absolutely certain the battle lines were clearly drawn now.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM

"The convention's glorification of militarism and the party's subservience to big business were summed up in the presidential candidate's opening line: "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty."

oh, piffle! It was a silly line, but you give youself MUCH too much credit at mass mind-reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:50 PM

I'm told that any disenchanted "progressives" could always vote for Ralph Nader. There didn't seem to be any disenchanted at the convention though. I guess anti-war demonstrations by "progressives" are thought to only be effective against Republicans though. Is that right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:59 PM

The progressive left isn't mainstream, it is YOUR vanguard, BillD.

But apparently, that isn't a word in the middle class vocabulary they teach you in your post-secondary brainwashing sessions.

The opening of Todd's article is this well-known quote from Tom Paine:

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives everything its value.

-Thomas Paine, The Crisis, 1776

You can read the rest of his excellent article at the CounterPunch website here:

Believing in a Green Resistance

You can't bully and intimidate me, and millions of other progressive leftists, BillD. We aren't willing to sellout the hard won victories, big and small, that we have gained in the past 30 years fighting both the right wing fanatics and the moderate liberal New Leftists, to get where the movement is today, just to appese the guilty New Left's conscience. You are the ones who demonized our young people for taking to the streets in Seattle. You are the ones who backed as "moderate centrist compromise" the attack on the poor in this country under Clinton's "welfare reform" and supported the sanctions against Iraq which killed millions of civilians, etc etc ad nauseum.

I am not the least bit concerned with your scorn for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM

Well, it sounds as if the Anarcho-Syndicalists who are trying to co-opt the word "progressive" are planning to marginalize themselves yet again. That's fine, but it is unfortunate that some of the "undecided" voters will choose to vote for someone without a chance of winning rather than making a step, however small, toward getting this country back on track.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM

The strategy of the anti-war movement, DougR, because of the attempts of the Democratic Leadership Council to use 9/11, the Iraq war, and the Bush presidency as it's opportunity to do the bidding of the global capitalist ruling elite and crush the progressive left in the US once and for all, is to only do large scale demonstrations at the Republican National Convention this year.

However, it should be noted that the main thrust of the progressive left in 2000, was on the Democratic National Convention in LA. Which is why the Democrats this year are so vociferous and blind in their hate and brownshirt tactics against the progressive left, that they are now rivaling Limbaugh and his ilk.

Of course, that shouldn't bother you Republicans a bit. In fact, what the Democrats are doing to the progressive left, I'm sure, must cheer up all you Limbaugh Republican types DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:13 PM

And when logic fails, use name-calling, right artbrooks?

I'm not even remotely close to being an 'Anarcho-Syndicalist'. But then, you wouldn't know one if it bit you in the ass anyway. You just don't know how else to describe the opinions of someone who refuses to accept the legitimacy of your so-called moderate centrist (which is really right wing at this juncture of American history) arguments. If it were 1951 artbrooks, you'd be calling me a communist, and insisting I be blacklisted.

You middle class Democrat hypocrits make me belly laugh out loud when you start pulling this sort of "paint with the broad brush" or "ad hominem attack the guest" shit when you have no legitimate response to my comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:40 PM

Great stuff Guest ....The spirit of Woody lives on.
Before reading your posts ,I was beginning to think there were no balls left in the good old US of A.
Your right brother,or sister theres a change coming,not only in the US but in the UK as well.
People are beginning to see through the con, the politicians are on the defensive at last.
Folks are finally beginning to realise that money and materialism dosn't bring happiness.
Its a short life, too short to spend on a treadmill or out of our skulls on drugs,we all deserve to enjoy the gifts our planet can provide,if we learn to nurture them....Give em hell...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM

If there were a snowball's chance in hell of actually electing Nader or any "progressive" leader, I'd be all for it. However, such is not the case. The winner will be either Bush or Kerry.

In general, I agree that for years there has been little or no difference between the two paties, both led by millionaires, both beholden to corporate interests. However, this time I think there is a clear choice between ordinary garden-variety capitalists (the Dems) and flat-out fascists demonstrating the effectiveness of the well-known "Big Lie" strategy.

I sense that I'm not alone in this perception, and sincerely hope that this time, I'll be joined at the polls by a siginificant number of folks who have been too cynical to vote at all in recent years, or who voted for Saint Ralph last time around.

Incidentally, I'm a pacifist/anarchist myself, with some degree of familiarity with the many squabbling and ineffective factions of the old New Left. I myself could never be, nor run for, President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, and so I don't expect any candidiate to completely represent my quirky minority viewpoint. However, I am aware of the boundaries of "realpolitik," and of my right to paricipate in the choice of an executive leader by participating the national debate and finally by casting my solitary little vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

There are much more important things in life than winning, PoppaGator. Much more important.

A vote for John Kerry is a vote to destroy the progressive left and all the gains we have made in the last 30 years ESPECIALLY by those Kerry Democrat liars claiming to pacifists to score points in a debate on the internet.

A true pacifist, PoppaGator, would NEVER vote for Kerry, because of his pro-war positions. So nice try, but jesus, we leftists truly are not that bloody stupid. You are one disingenuous mother fucker, PoppaGator.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:51 PM

See, GUEST, that's where you lose me. Why would a vote for Kerry "destroy the progressive left and all the gains we have made in the last 30 years"? If Bush wins, why will that be BETTER for the so-called progressive left? You have never been able to explain this in any of the the threads you start or the ones you hijack.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:00 PM

Because electing Kerry will lulls the Democratic party mainstream majority into thinking that true change has taken place when it hasn't, and take the wind out of the sails of the movement.

It is called an appeasement strategy, Nerd. Here is your Merriam Webster definition of it:

Main Entry: ap·pease
Pronunciation: &-'pEz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ap·peased; ap·peas·ing
Etymology: Middle English appesen, from Middle French apaisier, from a- (from Latin ad-) + pais peace -- more at PEACE
1 : to bring to a state of peace or quiet : CALM
2 : to cause to subside : ALLAY
3 : PACIFY, CONCILIATE; especially : to buy off (an aggressor) by concessions usually at the sacrifice of principles
synonym see PACIFY

The result of Kerry losing, OTOH, will be to energize those people who will otherwise be appeased if he wins. When people are energized to act, they become better informed, do more to bring about social change...

I can cite several examples, actually. I just read them in an article that I cite in this very thread. Here you go:

From Todd Chretien's article linked to above:

"The great immigrant revolutionary, abolitionist and supporter of women's rights, Thomas Paine, made the point in 1776 that in order to win any meaningful battle, it is necessary not only to fight when it is easy. It is necessary to fight, and in fact, it is especially important to fight when all "pragmatic" opinion counsels compromise, retreat and surrender. Had Washington's army sued for peace in 1776 at Valley Forge then the world's first representative democracy would never have been born.

Visionary abolitionist Frederick Douglass advised John Brown to abort his ill-fated raid on Harpers Ferry, not because he opposed the rebellion, but because he believed it could not succeed in its tactics. However, when John Brown was executed by the slave power, Douglass lauded him as the "man who started the war that ended slavery."

In 1937, Congress of Industrial Organization union leader John Lewis dared the government to break the auto sit-down strikes and "shoot him first." The auto bosses and Roosevelt backed down and we can thank the Flint rebels for the remnants of unions we still have today.

Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat to a white man, touching off a direct action movement that bucked those who advised to let the apartheid courts work with "all deliberate speed." The racist backlash was intense and led to the deaths, beatings and jailings of thousands of young Black and white freedom fighters. But Jim Crow died as well.

Any serious consideration of American history shows that Thomas Paine was right. Independence, abolition, unions, civil rights, suffrage, abortion, Stonewall. All great rebellions and reforms came into being because the minority who advocated "unreasonable" demands refused to disorganize their forces under the pressure of majority opinion. Instead, they held to their principles, gathered their forces, weathered the storm and showed friend and foe alike that "truth and not lies are the motor force of history."

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

What's more important than winning when running for office? The winner takes over power and the loser is out. If Bush hadn't "won" in 2000, it is *very* unlikely that the US would be embroiled in Iraq today. If you think Gore, whatever his shortcomings, would have done the same thing, my only concusion is that you're an out-and-out paranoid.

For my money, real hopes of actually attaining most "progressive" goals would probably be *enhanced* if it were possible to destroy the narcissistic little factions of the intellectual left. They're much more interested in scoring debating points than in actually having an effect on the real world, where no one in power is paying any attention to their rhetorical squabbles.

I thought "GUEST" could be anyone, but lately in these political BS threads, there seems to be just one individual posting as "GUEST." I'm glad you're here, Nerd -- for a while I thought I was alone with ths guy, with no support. (Please see the thread I started today, "Kerry on Body Armor.")

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

I notice both the statements that supposedly describe the position of "the left" actually come from political candidates.

As we all know, opposing candidates are in the business of trying to prove that their positions are wildly different from those of the other candidates. They do this whether it is true or not.

I don't think either of these leftist tickets would do anything different about Abu Ghraib, for example. What would they do? And how would it help?

Finally, what "pro-war positions" is Kerry supposed to have? It is unfortunate that he voted to give GWB authority to go to war. But I don't think the statement "it may be necessary to go to war" qualifies as a pro-war position, and this is what Kerry's vote meant. Later, he voted against giving GWB a blank check to pursue the war. Why does that not count as an "anti-war" position, if the first was a "pro-war position?"

No, Guest, you are just too self-satisfied, and too certain that you're always right. Most people know that there ARE valid reasons to go to war, and don't consider recognizing that fact to be "pro-war."

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

You are a disingenuous liar Nerd, just like Thomas the Rhymer is.

You both claim to be anti-war when it is convenient to winning the argument, and score points with your Bush bashing buddies.

But when it comes to standing by the principle of being anti-war, and fighting for it, you run off with your tails between your legs, and hide behind Hillary Clinton's and Teresa Heinz Kerry's skirts, sticking your tongues out at the people who are standing behind their principles and their lifelong progressive values.

You lie about being progressives, you lie about being anti-war, and you lie about John Kerry. All to score debate points.

You hate the progressive left, and all it stands for. And now, when the progressive left is making a stand, and deciding to unify AGAINST Kerry, you pretend to be one of them. Some of us know all about that lame old tactic.

It's the same one the corporate bosses were using back in the 20s and 30s to beat back the unions and the socialists and the communists and the people fighting for your 8 hour day, so you could sit on your ass and harrass people working for true political change on internet chat forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM

" bully and intimidate me, and millions of other progressive leftists, BillD"...goodness! I was not doing either, I was being cynical about labels, ranting and slogans. I could even agree with 'some' of the concepts you propose if you weren't so righteous, dogmatic and impractical. I am not unaware of what individuals can do for causes, I was on the front lines in Mississippi in 1964-65...but you are not impressing me that you have any real 'plan', other than wasting your vote for a principle.

"You are the ones who....." *I* am not the 'ones who' anything...I think for myself. I supported some things you mention, and 'scorned' others. I certainly did NOT support destruction of property and alienation of the general public by disrupting traffic in Seattle!

You seem to think, like most 'movements', that being against something, with little practical ideas of how to replace it is enough. Ralph Nader and most of the Greens could do some real good as grass roots movements, but they simply could NOT govern and deal with the world situation as a whole. It would be a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:37 PM

GUEST,

your invective cannot have been intended to communicate with ME, since I already know whether I fit your lameass description or not (hint: not). Thus, it must have been intended to impress observers in this forum. In other words, to score debate points.

I could as easily speculate about you, thus:

You are a disingenuous liar GUEST.

You claim to be on the left when it is convenient to winning the argument, and score points with your Kerry bashing buddies.

But you are obviously a republican plant, sent here to bash Kerry, draw support to Nadir or the Greens, and thus help Bush win the election. When we call you on it, you hide behind Ralph Nadir's swinging dick, craning your neck up to lick his ass whenever anyone disagrees with you.

You lie about us being progressives, you lie about us being anti-war, and you lie about John Kerry. All to score debate points.

You hate the left, and all it stands for. And now, when the left is making a stand, and deciding to unify behind Kerry, you pretend to be one of them. Some of us know all about that lame old tactic.

It's the same one the corporate bosses were using back in the 20s and 30s to beat back the unions and the socialists and the communists and the people fighting for your 8 hour day, so you could sit on your ass and harrass people working for true political change on internet chat forums.

See, GUEST? Now to the onlookers here, I am just as likely to be accurate as you are. Probably moreso, as the political thread contributors will be well aware of my left-of-Kerry positions on many issues, and my opposition to this war, from long ago.

You, however, are an anonymous troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

Nice try Nerd, but that IS exactly what all of you have been saying about me since I came out in support of Nader when he announced he was running. That I'm not really a progressive leftist, I'm just a Bush plant.

What's good for the goose, as the old saying goes. Don't like having that kind of invective spewed at you? Then stop doing it to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 07:12 PM

Oh, so you admit you are just lying to redress what you saw as an injustice against yourself. Fine, then!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 07:27 PM

Maybe we should stop watering this plant... It emits a foul odor. Obviously Rush Limbaugh's version of a 'radical'.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:15 PM

No Nerd, I'm not admitting to lying. I was referring to the last line in your post:

"You, however, are an anonymous troll."

And of course, there is Thomas':

"Obviously Rush Limbaugh's version of a 'radical'."

I'm not even willing to say you aren't lying, Nerd, because I believe both of you are. I think you and Thomas are being quite duplicitous, to score points in the debate. You claim to be something you are not: progressives. Neither of you are, and the audience reading the threads can tell that, because the positions you espouse are not consistent with the well known, easy to find positions of the progressive left. You claim to be progressives, and then spout the Democratic Leadership Council party line.

You fool no one, except the Mudcat members who are easily duped into believing you because they don't like me. But they don't count anyway. Anyone who has political principles based upon an insecure, dysfunctional need to take the opposite opinion to their friends and acquaintances' enemies, are as phony and duplicitous as you and Thomas. I also know most the people who will rush to your defense here are just that sort of person, because I've seen them do it over and over again.

I don't know why you think no one sees through your duplicitousness. It is SO obvious!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Here is another one of those times when I actually have to wait to post... because I'm laughing so hard I can't see the keyboard for the tears and convulsions... another brief pause... Oh my...(wiping the tears out of my eyes... again) You're REALLY on to us now!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 08:56 PM

Maybe it's a Ashcroft plant pretending to be an Anarcho-Syndicalist...it's such a perfect textbook example!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST,rich
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

Guest dah-ling,

You are obviously intelligent and well informed. You regurgitate and rehash here what others have written elsewhere quite well. You do put a lot of information out there on mudcat that people with less time to pour over leftist information sources might otherwise miss. So you are of some value.

But then there's the fact that you berate, abuse and bully anyone who responds to you with anything but blanket congratulations. ANY other response you mock.

As I said, the information that you provide is something of value and did you not beg for attention with your constant, misdirected foul condemnations, you might enjoy some real conversation. But you do not want conversation. You want attention. And you want to destroy.

I honestly hate to think of you as "an inner city public school educator." Do you treat the children with the same contempt as you treat us? You spew so much hate here, don't you loss yourself occasionally in school and verbally assault a child?   I do remember something you wrote about a child being "too precious".

As an active governing board member of your housing coop to what abuse do you subject those who don't perfectly fit into your mold, which from what I can see, is NO ONE?

In the gardening coop, if someone wants to try a gardening method of which you disapprove, do you scream at him or her, call them names and stomp on their vegetables?

You say "I also volunteer here and there all over the place as my time and energy and schedule allows". Honestly, how could you possibly have time? With all the reading and posting and creating of art that you do? Where does a miserable, abusive person like you volunteer? I shudder to think.

"I am an organic gardener." In the city? Wow, impressive. That costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time.

"I donated money and/or volunteered time this year so far to Nader, the Greens, the bus drivers strike fund, Democracy Now, Center for Victims of Torture, and KFAI radio."

I thought you were one of the working poor? As one of the working poor, I know that food and shelter very often override donating money and time to causes but you seem to live on some other plane so….

With all you claim you do, I find it very hard to figure it out how it is even remotely possible. Some of it may well be true the time spent on this forum alone excludes you from most of what you espouse.

"I love working as an artist activist in a progressive community of people." What's this art exactly? Is it a window display in your co-op called "Tourette and Me – a personal fucking diatribe". Or how 'bout "RANT: a play for one"? Am I close? " Ode to the Odious or Everyone but me" maybe?

You are such a fraud. Please, if you were a true peace lover you would treat others with love and peace and you do not. You are sycophant. You spend a lot of time ALONE in your "co-op" hating yourself and lashing out at the world. I believe you do very little to improve this world. You enjoy inflicting damage and yearn for retaliation because you hate yourself and the world. As I've said before go get a good spanking and move on for crissake.

rich

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:05 PM

Looks like the trolls have the thread.

Have fun girls, I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

Hey, if John Kerry had come out and said that the invasion of Iraq was wrong, wrong, wrong and been consistent in his opposition as Deniis Kucinich has been, this thread would not exist. Problem is, he didn't and isn't...

That is a majot peice of why true progressives just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about the guy. When we'd like to hear less woof-woof, we're getting more?.... No matter how bad Bush is, it sure makes it tough for progressives to support Kerry...

Throw in Kerry's silence on corporate globalization and exploitation by the World Bank, et al, and we have more problems...

Yeah, Bush sucks... So does Kerry... Maybe less but still sucks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:44 PM

waaahhhhh! *sniff*...I work SO hard, and *I* don't get flamed and called nasty names!....I think I will assume it's because I am clever and hard to dispute, rather than that I just being ignored as irrelevant... but I will still pout!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:33 AM

Well, GUEST,

Now I understand. Your problem is you think you own the word progressive. Well, lots of people say they are progressive, silly. To claim that other people are LYING just because they don't interpret the word "progressive" the same as you is...well, it's kinda stupid.

And, as rich points out, you're obviously a liar to boot.

Y'all come back now!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 12:26 PM

From GUEST on 1 Aug at 2:13 PM:

And when logic fails, use name-calling, right artbrooks?

Does anyone else find this as laughable as I do?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:06 PM

These are the choices as I see them...

Kerry:

- Absolutely certain to wage war against Iran and/or Syria, although it might not be actually called a war (the way, for instance, the war in Vietnam was called a "police action").

- Probable abandonment of any help to Iraq and Afghanistan.

- Probable increase in support for environmantally sound policies.

- Possible increase in support for the middle and lower economic classes in the US.

Bush:

- Continued involvement in Iraq and possibly Afghanistan.

- Continued undermining of enviornemtal issues.

- Continued undermining of issues that benefit the middle and lower economic classes in the US.

Hell of a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:14 PM

Uh, CarolC, where do you get this from about Kerry?

Absolutely certain to wage war against Iran and/or Syria, although it might not be actually called a war (the way, for instance, the war in Vietnam was called a "police action").

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM

Let's call it a hunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:25 PM

But if he does get elected and that's what happens, remember you saw it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:30 PM

Oh great! The level of discourse has now dropped from "what other candidates say about Kerry must be true" (GUEST's original deception" to "CarolC's hunches about Kerry must be true."

Honestly!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

Take it or leave it, Nerd. Like I said... if he gets elected and that's what happens, remember you read it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:40 PM

If that happens, refresh this thread and I will post my congratulations!

In the meantime, there's no real good evidence here, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:42 PM

Ok. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:58 PM

Jeeze! You guys sure enjoy beating up on each other. Guest makes some good points I believe. After all, if you are TRULY anti-war, how in the world can you vote for Kerry? Just today he said (on the Fox News Network of course) that he wouldn't be able to pull the troops out of Iraq until about 2008! A true anti-war progressive would, I believe, pull the troops out of Iraq immediately upon being elected! And any TRUE anti-war progressives would applaud his doing so. Instead, most of you folks are going to vote for a guy who has been touting the anti-war sentiment for over thirty years, but when he becomes president, he is going to proudly be a war president. IF he is elected of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 08:50 PM

You're quite right, Doug. (Hey, I'm agreeing with you!)

Thing is, Kerry is less of a scumball than your guy. Maybe not much less, but less.

As Michael Moore said: If Kerry gets elected, I'll be after him on day 2.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Left to Kerry: you ain't seen nothin yet
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

And I don't doubt it for a minute, Michaelr. If Moore has an opportunity to skew facts and make a few more bucks, I have no doubt that Kerry will be in his sights in a New York minute. MM is the torch bearer of the Democrat Party at the moment, but should Nader luck out and win, RN would be the next one in his sights.

DougR