BS: Human shields (18 months later)

Subject: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM

This is a kind of follow up to This old thread about human shields that is closed now. You remember, those people who risked their lives to prevent the coalition of the willies from targeting the civilian population of Bagdad.

I love follow ups of all kinds (a deplorable weakness of researchers) that's why I read with great interest interviews with the best known of the German human shields. Among questions how they think now about their previous adventure, there was also the nasty question why they are not in Bagdad now. The people there need them. They could mix with people queuing for jobs at the security forces, they also could stand in front of police stations to dissuade the suicide bombers. Churches too would be a fine and surely televisable and newsmaking place.

All of them said not they wouldn't go there now. I have a deep understanding for that response for I wouldn't go there too. But when asked why they wouldn't go now they came up with all sorts of funny excuses: no money, no more vacation time left for this year, want to spend more time with the kids (the own kinds). My favourite response came from that guy who said he doen't speak Arab and therefore would be unable to dissuade the attackers (as if his English would have helped with the helicopter gunner targeting a plant (or a hospital, the preferred placement of the human shields). Not one of them said I'm scared, for I know that no dissuasion will prevent the terrorists from attacking civilians and security forces and I was not completely but fairly sure that the Americans would not attack when they knew a human shield was a one place.

Ken O'Keefe, founder of 'human shields' is now said (I've heard it as a rumor and would like to be corrected) to be in Hawaii fighting for independence of these islands from the USA. Now that's a really dangerous place to be in these times.

Wolfgang (in a very cynical mood)

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 04:43 PM

I've found you to be a reasonable man, I wonder if I've thought this through further than you or if you have knowledge I do not.

I'm pretty sure that the presence of European human shields would tend to discourage the coalition from attacking a specific target but that it would tend to make the target more enticing for the insurgants. Their continued presence would make targets of innocent Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

As of June 6, Ken O'Keefe was on hunger strike in an Israeli jail. I don't know if he's still there or not. It would appear that he is from Hawaii originally.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

And then there was Rachel Corrie, the American human shield killed by Israelis for putting herself between the army's bulldozer and a Palestinian family's home.

I think you are WAY too cynical Wolfgang, to suggest these people are cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:26 PM

It appears that O'Keefe has been deported from Israel, and this is what he says about what he'll being doing in the forseeable future:

"Over the coming months I will be travelling with P10K FORCE members throughout the UK, Europe, Japan, South Korea, South Africa, Canada and possibly the United States. Together we will continually register more P10K FORCE members and when we register 10,000 plus we will mobilize the P10K FORCE within 60 days of that time. I see no reason why P10K cannot become real within a year or less; and I will do all I can to make it sooner rather than later."

Is there any particular reason you didn't look up this information for yourself, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:28 PM

Thanks for the correction, Carol.

My focus is on the reasons they have given for not going and on nothing else. Had one of them mentioned a reason like you have, Jack, I most likely would not have started this thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:29 PM

They're still performing the function of human sheild, Wolfgang, just not in Iraq any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:32 PM

Is there any particular reason you didn't look up this information for yourself

Yes, Carol, because it was a minor detail which had nothing to do with the main part of my post. Therefore I designated it as a rumor, for I do not trust very much that particular German source.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

They're still performing the function of human sheild

Not those interviewed in Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:02 PM

The intent of Ken O'Keefe's P10K Force is to creat a ten-thousand person strong civilian observer force to observe events in Paelstine -- presumably as an offset against the superior physical force of Israel. Ken O'Keef has put George Bush on notice to this effect in this letter.

URL= http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/26879.php


A

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:16 PM

My guess, Wolfgang, is that individual human shields sign up to serve for certain periods of time, and then they return to their normal lives. So I would imagine that the particular ones you mentioned in your opening post were telling the truth about why they aren't doing it any more. I doubt that most people who get involved in this sort of thing do it for indefinite periods of time. It's probably more of a rotating personnel kind of thing like the military or the Peace Corps. But the organizations that are doing this work are still very much involved, just not in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:28 PM

Thanks Wolgang,

I thought that was it. I think maybe both you and Carol are right about this. Those folks probably were speaking the truth from their own perspective. The strategic thinkers ar probably much further up in the organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: mg
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:42 PM

Standing in police lines is going to dissuade terrorists? Are you, I am trying to be polite here, nuts? The coalition of the willies did not target the civilian population. It doesn't matter how many people say up is down and down is up...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:09 PM

Mary,

Hiroshima was a military target. You don't have to "target" civilians to hit them. Perhaps the "human shields" didn't have to be there in Iraq this time to protect the civilians but, God Bless them, they thought they were making a difference. Even so, plenty of civilians were killed in the effort to "win their freedom."

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:28 PM

WHen you're dealing with people who have no regard for human life, adding human llife to their cost of implementation is trivial, and not a deterrent. These are extremists who blow themselves up -- why should they think twice about anyone else being around?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

I could be wrong, but I don't think the human shields are doing what they do to protect anyone from insurgents. I think they are primarily concerned with protecting civilians from certain governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

And of course Carol, there is no doubt in anyone's mind as to which particular government you are referring to. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 12:33 AM

In Iraq, Rabbi Sol, they were protecting civilians from the US government. In other countries, they protect civilians from other governments. And yes, one of those governments is the Israeli government. Are you trying to bait me, Rabbi Sol?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM

You know, I tried to answer Wolfgang's questions (and subsequent questions) about human shields without mentioning any specific governments because I wanted to try to avoid attracting any trolls or flamers. Is this still America, Rabbi Sol? Do I have to run everything I want to say by you before I say it?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 09:32 AM

Here's some more information about what some of the human shields were doing during and just after the war in Iraq, Wolfgang. It appears that some of them stayed in Iraq, at least for a while, to help with the rebuilding:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/29/MN81565.DTL

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: DougR
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 01:27 PM

Love it, Wolfgang, just love it!

The human shields are not in Iraq because they are smarter than some people give them credit for. If they went to Iraq they would likely get their asses blown away, and they know that. While it's true that coilition forces would not kill them were they using their bodies to shield innocent civilians, they know the terrorists would blow them and the innocent civilians to kingdom come without batting an eye.

Glad you did the follow-up. Confirms what I thought originally.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 04:02 PM

What does it confirm for you Doug? That morally the coalition is slightly ahead of the terrorists they created?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Jack ...dont allow your self to be pushed into defense of the bombers.
These madmen have no scruples about butchering their own brothers and sisters.
Most of the people who stand in line outside the police stations ,looking for a job are simply trying to feed their families.
They dont care about the Capitalist system, or any other system.

Sometimes we are so angry withour rulers and their bestial conduct that we forget the evil on the other side

No political or religious theory is worth the murder of innocent people to prove a point or gain an advantage

Fighting evil with evil will never work.
If there is ever to be a change, it must be a change of heart, starting with ourselves.
Im beginning to see a start, with environmental issues being taken up by "unpoliticised" people.
Love for our environment,will lead I hope,to love for all our brothers and sisters...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 04:47 PM

Akenaton what makes you think I would defend the bombers. I am simply saying that the bombers are the inveitable consequence of an illegal war.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

DougR, there are still peace and human rights activists going to Iraq on a regular basis and spending time there. They're just not performing the function of human shield there. They're performing other functions instead. But they're just as vulnerable to being killed or hurt as they would be if they were performing the function of human shield. In fact, some peace and human rights activists have been killed in Iraq.

Here are a couple of examples of current peace and human rights activities in Iraq:

http://vitw.us/archives/000797.html

http://www.doorcountycompass.com/events/040308martin.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 06:00 PM

Here's some stuff from peace and human rights activists who are currently in Iraq:

http://vitw.us/weblog/

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 06:01 PM

OK Jack...I think iv got your position by now, not too far from my own.

Our friends on the right have a nasty little tactic of trying to back us into a corner, and attempt to take the high ground,they're a devious bunch Doug and co.....Even Wolfgangs' worth the watching..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: mg
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:57 PM

Civilians theoretically do not have to be protected from the U.S. government. That is theoretical. Obviously in any war, some to many will be in unfortunate places. I think I have to spell it out here. We are the good guys. We are going in, with insufficient application of the Powell doctrine, to free an oppressed people. I hope they will join us and free the Sudanese and North Koreans. Unfortunately, terrorists and other versions of enemies will surround themselves with and embed themselves within the most innocent of civilians..nursery schools, old folks homes etc. It's a dilemma to be sure and mathematically sometimes you will save more people in the long run by going in with guns a blazing....This was a horrible situation. Hopefully in the long run it will be better by far. If not, we are dying trying. It's a bad world out there. Sometimes it's like a forest fire. You sometimes have to put one out before it engulfs you. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields (18 months later)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 12:44 AM

Mary, the founder of the "Human Shields" organization is a retired Marine. Why do you suppose, given his background, he would think that "human shields" might be a good thing from the point of view of the civilians in Iraq?