BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?

Subject: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

I posted a portion of this message over in the Tig's sister thread, but then immediately wished I'd just started another thread to discuss it, so here it is:

I've noticed there are more and more of these prayer/hug type threads creeping back in here at Mudcat. I thought a consensus of sorts had been reached to use Jon's forum for this sort of thing, because these sorts of threads eventually create so much dissension and discord in the forum.

Or has that compromise gone out the window, and people intend to use the forum as their support group again?

It would be nice if the forum could follow the example Rick Fielding set for this sort of thing, IMO.

Can someone update me on what proper Mudcat etiquette is in this regard? AGAIN?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:20 AM

It's a sort of stand-off....there is no 'official' policy, it just goes according to how many flames it gets. People post about their cats and personal problems *here* because this is where their friends usually read.

There IS some effort to keep serious religious chatter to PMs and other forums, but sore knees and dead pets and problems with boyfriends will probably always be part of daily chat between people who 'know' each other, even if only online.

I am trying pretty hard to shrug and not read/comment if I think it's not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: maire-aine
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM

Compassion is never out of place.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:30 AM

Now that the BS threads have been moved down to the bottom, does it really matter?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

No it isn't maire-aine. But to suggest that this forum is the proper place for prayer chains and discussions of peoples' personal traumas and dramas is misplaced, in the opinion of many here.

So I would think those who wish to show compassion, would do that by honoring the need to keep the forum free of flame wars over this issue. We need to be compassionate in ways that are hard for us, as well as easy for us. But that doesn't mean the one and only way of demonstrating compassion is by welcoming prayer chains and therapy threads, particularly when there is a good Mudcat alternative for it--Jon's annexe which DOES welcome those threads for Mudcat members only.

Jon's Mudcat annex solution, when combined with Rick Fielding's example of how not to abuse the forum by taking advantage of peoples' personal sympathies for your suffering, is pretty elegant and I think works well for the vast majority of forum users. Both Jon and Rick showed a lot of integrity about this, and I think it is always good to honor that sort of integrity.

I'm sure you would agree with that, wouldn't you maire-aine?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:33 AM

Compassion is never out of place.

Aloha nui loa Maryanne; my sister.

I agree completely.

I just wonder why some people feel threatened by others expressing their opinions.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM

Two Bears, please read my comments to maire-aine above. There is a very elegant, non-confrontational solution to this that is there exclusively for Mudcat members. Perhaps it is just time to remind people of it.

CarolC, I respectfully disagree with the notion that now that we have BS separate that it isn't an issue. Now, I fully understand people talking about members who have passed away, as we have seen down through the years. I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with the proliferation of the prayer/hug and therapy threads. I was also pretty uncomfortable with the way I felt many people here harangued Rick in his last 6-9 months to "share" his illness with them.

It is a prurient interest sort of thing with me. I know others have their reasons for not wanting the forum used like this too, and I'm sure they'll weigh in.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

Well, I personally would like to see fewer threads complaining about other threads/mudcatters/the mudcat. Some others would like to see fewer political threads. Some would like to see fewer silly threads. But we can't all have things exactly the way we want them, so I guess we'll all just have to deal with how things are.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:59 AM

The idea that prayer can accomplish anything is insulting to many people. It's difficult to point something like that out in a forum like this, where many practice it and apply it in cases where people are ill or otherwise saddened -- to interupt such a thread would be viewed, rightly, as incompassionate. I rarely open prayer threads -- religious tolerance and PC do not extend to the beliefs of atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:00 PM

Of all the thread that hould be limited, the sharing in rough times ones are not it.

It's almost like: "So you're sick - go talk about it somewhere else, we don't want that here." What a crappy attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:09 PM

Informationally-- since I coordinate the "prayer chain" and I don't want people confused by an uninformed use of the term--

There is no "prayer chain" in the threads. There IS an email prayer chain a lot of Catters belong to, and from time to time, notices about the operation of the chain are posted in the BS section. Not the prayer needs, or who's in the chain of people who pray about them, but the OPERATION of it. The current FAQ for it is viewable at the Annexe and people have to agree to it before they are added to the mailing list.

The prayer requests section at the Annexe usually contains much the same stuff as requests people post here in the Mudcat BS threads. Not every Mudcat BS thread about prayer needs appears at the Annexe, and not every prayer need posted at the Annexe is posted here, but they are usually pretty similar as to content and depth, and sometimes the request is a copy-paste from one site to the other.

Depth? What do I mean, DEPTH? I'm not sure-- maybe it isn't the right word-- but what I mean is that the EMAIL prayer chain tends to get requests more personal, more in need of privacy, in nature.... stuff people don't tend to talk about publicly, sometimes goes only to the prayer chain. Also, the mailing list includes a few non-Mudcat members, people recomended by chain members as folk of sound, mature judgment. We have never had a complaint that a prayer request get loose as gossip, and I have never had to bounce a member off the mailig list for violating the policies in the FAQ.

I don't think there is any more mention of "prayer," BTW, then there is of pagan practices, candle-lightings, etc., nor has there ever been. In short, Mudcat remains a reflection of the diversity of its membership and of the extent to which people of different belief systems interrelate, or don't interrelate, in general.

Sometimes I wonder if we need the prayer chain anymore, because it's been a long time since a flamewar blew up over the matter, and people have been posting a lot of stuff that had been inhibited, IMO, by the flamewars. I've wondered whether the BS division has made the chain obsolete. It makes me wonder if I should bother, or just expect to see such things here in the BS threads. But when I remember that we get requests that are NOT posted in the threads, I decide to keep it open, as long as people IN it are responding prayerfully and as long as the addys can be confirmed as existing addy's. And as long as I can find the time to keep it current.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

PS, what some have construed from time to time as an "agreement" is nothing of the sort-- it's the application of free will and maturing judgment by a few smart people who, IMO, learned from some things that happened as a result of widespread intolerance of various sorts. IMO, at most you could call it an implied or inferred consensus.

Speaking just for me,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

CarolC, I acknowledge that "I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about, and too bad if you don't like it" attitude is the one that currently prevails here. Which is why the BS section has become something of a sewer of late. There are a lot of personal attack threads going on (I thought the clones deleted such things) lately too, you are right about that. And as long as there are problems with the site availablity, there will also be "Is it Mudcat or is it me/my computer" sorts of threads and the bitch threads that inevitably follow them.

I would argue that the political threads were, in the early days of Mudcat at least, one of the main uses of the forum, because so many folkies are political animals in the Woody/Lloyd vein. Same with the writing threads, which grew out of peoples' creativity and desire to experiment with group writing exercises. Earlier incarnations of Mudcat had a lot of writers, especially writers of the sci fi/fantasy filk genre, who also often tend to be political animals. There also was once a much higher standard for really good political discussions that used to take place here. Those things were once defining hallmarks of Mudcat.

The "let's meet" and "announcement" threads are de riguer in any forum, as are the joke threads, and the "please pray for my deceased pet/send prayer hugs to my dying friend/relative" are too. The latter types of threads are ones that a good number of very vocal Mudcat members opposed, and for good reason. Once a forum is taken over by those sorts of threads, along with topical political discussions (rather than deeper philosophical political discussions as once took place here), it pretty downhill to banality. The threads degenerate into popularity contest sorts of threads, which we also see a lot of.

Now, the majority of clones, along with Max, are some of the people who first started the forum down the road to becoming a personal support group as they have gone through life's medical and other crises, for themselves and their friends. A lot of people have been put off by that sort of thing, as only the most popular people in the forum seem to generate sympathies and get the attention of the forum. Many people who have posted asking for sympathy and support over the years who weren't popular or well known by forum users have been blithely ignored, and others who wished to not have that sort of attention focused on them, as I think Rick Fielding wanted, didn't have their wishes honored.

It may not really matter anymore though. As I said, there really isn't much to distinguish Mudcat from most other online forums anymore anyway, as all those people who shared many of my feelings about these things, have left.

It never hurts to ask, though. Because a consensus about this was reached as I recall, and it wasn't all that long ago, either.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:19 PM

Wrong, Pinkie. I am an atheist and pray regularly. I would be happy to have that discussion in a PM to minimize thread creep.

Meantime, I too feel that BS below the line is an appropriate place for a prayer or sympathy request.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

Look, I know the tyranny of the majority is going to prevail, because it clearly already is, hence the thread title. So there is no need to prove it. I just thought I'd ask.

As I've said now a number of times in this thread, prayer/hug threads is one of the things that has contributed to the banality of Mudcat, IMO, not something that has made it better. Look at the "if you could only meet one Mudcatter" thread. Almost entirely a popularity contest. I think my post was one of a couple that actually showed some interest in meeting someone who was musically much more creative and able than myself, or (in the case of Isaac McKittery) a greatly entertaining writer. In other words, for a forum which portends to be about a creative endeavor, music, there is precious little interest among most Mudcat members nowadays, in things creative. RAther, it is all about the clubhouse chat aspect.

That is all I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:30 PM

I would also like to add that ONLY in a predominantly WASP/assimilated WASP/New Agey forum like this, can the guilt tripping WASPs/assimilated WASPs/New Agers claim to be persecuted for their religious beliefs.

You could give that one a rest too. Unless of course, your purpose for claiming persecution is start a flame war over it.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:34 PM

Before I get sucked in SINSULL ... which bit is wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM

I've never seen the majority prevail against a minority when there's a disagreement about what they should or shouldn't post here. People talk about what they want to talk about, period. No amount of complaining will make them stop. In fact, many tend to be challenged to write more by such complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM

Sorry, TBPL.
You said: "I rarely open prayer threads -- religious tolerance and PC do not extend to the beliefs of atheists."
As an atheist who prays, I disagreed. No "suck in" just willing to share some ideas.
MARY

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM

I have no problem with discussions about religion, philosophy, and political beliefs. I have a great number of problems with public forums with a specific focus (last time I checked, the Mudcat forum was still supposed to be about things musical and creative) gets hijacked by people who want to use it for their personal clubhouse, which is the way Mudcat has been since the Mudcat Royals took it over.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:49 PM

Look up, GUEST. There are almost twice as many music threads as BS.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

My original post, if anyone would like to read it (which I'm sure most of you don't want to be bothered with) isn't worded as a complaint. It is worded as a question, asking for clarification about this.

I've noticed a serious creeping proliferation of these threads that weren't here, as I recall, a year ago. I'm simply looking to see if anyone else's observations are the same as mine, and to ask if there wasn't a de facto agreement (since WYSIWYG insists there was NEVER a consensus about it) to keep these divisive sorts of threads out of the forum now that there were alternatives to using the forum for prayer/hug/therapy threads.

Apparently, now it is also a sin simply to ask for clarification of the rules of the Mudcat forum game. Not that this place is becoming increasingly hostile and intolerant or anything.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:01 PM

Never been any consensus about religious threads here that I am aware of. ALL obnoxious, to whomever is reading it and defining it, threads are up for being ignored. There has always been the group posting religious items and those on the other side whining about them.

God Bless
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:03 PM

sinsull, YOU keep ignoring the questions I'm raising in this thread. The point isn't that there are more music than BS threads. The point also isn't to deny the de facto "anything goes" nature of the BS section since the split of the forum.

What I'm mulling over here (and it really isn't anything more than that, so there really isn't a need to be automatically defensive bordering on combative about it) is the fact that the BS forum has really degenerated to this, as some predicted it would when the split occurred.

At the time of the split, I thought it was a good idea. Now, I think I was dead wrong about that. I think the split of the forum has resulted in profound banality in BOTH music and BS threads, and has destroyed the uniqueness of what was once the Mudcat forum. One of the (many) things I would point to that has caused the takeover of the forum by the pedestrian, the trite, the platitudinous, the prurient, the asinine, and the fatuous, is the recent proliferation of prayer/hug/therapy threads and cliche ridden "topical political hot button of the day" threads.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:07 PM

Now I think it's a troll thread. WYSIWYG insists there was NEVER a consensus about it That's not what I said above, at all, and I didn't "insist," I clarified via info, cuz ya knw what? It was me who was involved in the shift, so I offered INFO.

No tolerance for atheists? It is to laugh. I tolerate tons of atheism every day, and dearly love some friends who are atheists! (HI BILL!)

Sounds to me more like someone is trying to START a flamewar than avoid one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:12 PM

Hello faceless GUEST!


first of all, because you use the GUEST thing, yet are obviously a "regular" you already know that many of us at Mudcat have little respect for you if you start questioning anything on Mudcat. Is that fair? Probably not, but there's a whole lotta history here concerning GUESTS.

Secondly, did you read the first reply to your post? It's a sort of stand-off....there is no 'official' policy

I think this best sums up the situation. Max, Joe, etc. have repeatedly said that they choose not to control 99.9% of what goes on around here. Certainly, they're not going to restrict anything that is nice, positive, etc.

The Mudcat is the sum of it's parts - overwhelmingly determined by regular posters and what they choose to post.

Thirdly - since you've been around here for a while, why do you expect that every post in this thread is going to respond to your question? If you wish that to be the case, there's a couple Anal Retentive boards you might want to check out.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:20 PM

WYSIWYG you have to be the thinnest skinned, most egocentric person on this forum. Any time someone brings these issues up, you feel an obvious compulsion to rush to judgment and label them trolls.

Why must you insist upon always making these discussions about you and your beliefs? Jesus, you are A Holier-Than-Thou Blinkered One.

And BTW, if you think this is all about the atheists being offended, why haven't you directed your words to the only two people in this thread to have used the "A word"--sinsull and Big Pink Lad, hmmmm?

I'm not opposed to the prayer/hug/therapy threads because of my religious beliefs. I'm opposed to them because they bring out the prurient, the maudlin, and the misguided in people. I find them distasteful in the extreme, and don't mind saying so. But that doesn't mean I'm trying to flame and otherwise disrespect people who are suffering and/or grieving. That is a gross misrepresentation of my words here, as well as their intent.

Again--has anyone besides me noticed a real proliferation of prayer/hug/therapy threads--and no, I don't mean philosophical discussions about religion--of late? And does anyone besides me and WYSIWYG recall that there was some agreement/consensus/accomodation reached about the forum being used for prayer/hug/therapy threads when Jon created the Mudcat annex?

The annex was created prior to the splitting of the forum into music and BS, so it isn't like this is a completely irrelevant query, ya know...

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

Blackcatter, I have already acknowledged that my anon guest status will be problematic for some you who will particpate in this thread, as my and the other regular anon guests' presence usually is to your faction here. That is your issue though, not "all Mudcatters", so you may wish to speak in less sweeping terms and generalizations.

I also understand, and said so in this thread numerous times now, that I am not complaining that the BS section particularly, is unmoderated and will remain so.

The question I'm raising is about something I understood most forum users had de facto agreed to do, all by our lonesome selves, without anyone telling us we HAVE to do it, which is use the annex for prayer/hug/therapy threads, in order to lessen the rancor and flame wars over the subject. Perhaps those flame wars about these issues were before your time here?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:32 PM

No tolerance for atheists? It is to laugh. I tolerate tons of atheism every day, and dearly love some friends who are atheists! (HI BILL!)

Sounds to me more like someone is trying to START a flamewar than avoid one.


Thank you for your tolerance and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Tig
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

I assume GUEST that you are not the Mr Guest who I met at Warwick - who seemed a thoroughly nice chap!!

I am sorry if I have upset your sensibilities by asking for help for my sister this way. Since I don't frequent Jon's Forum - or know HOW to for that matter - I didn't even THINK it might cause you any distress. However if Sue, who I keep encouraging to believe Mudcat can offer her something in both her musical interests and friendships, jumps to this thread it will probably cause her even MORE distress.

I put it as a BS with the title I did so that people who already know me (yes, there are a lot of Mudcatters who know me!) and who felt able to send hugs (and a lot of us DO!!!!!!) could open the thread and read it - and anyone who wasn't interested/didn't believe in such things wouldn't bother. There are a lot of threads I wouldn't even DREAM of bothering to open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was there really any need for you to open it or were you just feeling sore at the time that nobody was hugging YOU?????? I only hope that when you are in need of the support you get from a group of friends from all around the word someone is kind enough to do the same for you!!!!

I would have hoped that if you are already a Mudcat member you would at least have had the decency to post under your proper name - and if not why not get off the site and let us use it for what WE will!!!
(Maybe you are afraid I might want to PM you and try and force some HUGS on you!!!!!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:47 PM

Tig, I am not going to buy your manipulative guilt tripping. Your post is proof positive of why people don't want this sort of thing in the forum. You get to paint me as a bad guy, as someone with no compassion, and garner support of people with like minded views of yours, for yourself and your sister.

I moved the discussion out of the thread about your sister. I apologize for putting my .02 worth in that thread, but not for saying what I have said here in this one. I believe it needed saying.

"(Maybe you are afraid I might want to PM you and try and force some HUGS on you!!!!!!!!)"

Actually, that is exactly right. I don't want personal sympathy, hugs, or prayers from strangers on internet chat forums. You should have the decency to respect that.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

I gave my non-combative opinion: "Meantime, I too feel that BS below the line is an appropriate place for a prayer or sympathy request.
SINS"

GUEST, since your valid inquiry has degenerated into a name-calling contest, I will bow out and leave you to fan the flames.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM

I'm sure a lot of people besides me must be scratching their heads and saying "what consensus?"

How long ago is this supposed to have happened? I've been around here for nearly two years, and many regular posters here have been around somewhat less than me. Whatever flame wars arose from these threads certainly must have been before my time, and that of a great number of others reading this.

Personally, the support that Mudcatters give each other is one of the things I really like about Mudcat, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this opinion.

As for the idea that only popular and well known posters get attention and support, I have not found that to be true at all. I started a thread last year about a problem I was having with flatmates and my need to move, and I got wonderful responses from many people. When I had to disconnect my computer for a while, I printed out the thread so I could look at it, and the support I felt meant a lot to me.

I have seen many other similar threads which must have been very welcome for the people who started them, and I don't recall any flame wars in them - maybe some other types of threads, but not these.

By the way, I have not noticed any more than the usual number of these kind of threads - certainly not a proliferation. I think we should let well enough alone and let people post what they like, as long as it is not actually offensive. You can't force this sort of thing. It will become what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:16 PM

Yes Jenny-O, and I was among the people who offered you advice and support. I never, however, offered you prayers or hugs or played therapist to you.

Thanks for answering my question about how many of these sorts of threads there have been lately. I appreciate getting the feedback, and would welcome it from more than one person (which is why I asked!)

As I said earlier in this thread, I was uncomfortable with the way I felt many people here harangued Rick Fielding in his last 6-9 months to "share" his illness with them. I felt a lot of it was rooted in prurient interest. A sort of gawking at the car wreck sort of thing.

Now, I never met Rick or corresponded with him privately, so I have no way of knowing what his feelings were about the way people kept 200+ post threads going ABOUT him and his terminal illness, with very few contributions FROM him about his health status. In fact, I don't recall him ever divulging much about his actual health status. I just am remembering it as him never asking for people to pray for him, etc I do remember him giving the occassional update to be polite. I hate the feeling of being coerced into being polite to people, out of a sense of etiquette and decorum because they are being nice to me when I am suffering. I read Rick's posts sometimes (though certainly not all of them) and to me they read as appreciation for peoples' concern. But the posts of his I read also seemed to be evidence of the possibility that Rick preferred to keep it private, and out of the forum.

Some people wish to keep such matters private and separate from their online activities. Some people wish to discuss them online, and the more people involved, the better.

I just wish, considering that there IS an alternative, that those who want to engage in the prayer/hug/therapy threads, would respect people like me and my wishes. All it would take is posting the info to a thread where someone starts a prayer/hug/therapy request, about the Mudcat annex, or a PM to them if they are members.

Is that too much to ask of one another, really?

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

Anonymous posts should be treated like anonymous letters, with contempt, and totally ignored.
In my humble opinion if the writer is not prepared to stand up for his/her beliefs, opinions, etc., in person then they are not worth bothering about.

GUEST, the simple answer is, if you don't like it, go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:40 PM

Now that the BS threads have been moved down to the bottom, does it really matter?

No

Well, I personally would like to see fewer threads complaining about other threads/mudcatters/the mudcat. Some others would like to see fewer political threads. Some would like to see fewer silly threads. But we can't all have things exactly the way we want them, so I guess we'll all just have to deal with how things are.

Carol. We can only hope and pray.........

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

I actually think GUEST has a point here. I personally don't feel really strongly about it, but the hug threads always struck me as weird. Then again, I posted with sympathy to a dying cat thread today...

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:52 PM

Sigh.

Of all people I would have hoped would understand Shambles, you certainly would have been on the list.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about,
here is a link
to a Mudcat forum search with the keywords "prayer threads".

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

And for those of you who don't want to wade through them all, so you know I'm not making all this up, here is a quick, short post to illustrate my point. This is a thread that was originally directed to Joe Offer, who has been quite vocal about his position on the prayer threads. As you can see, this thread goes back to 2001, and it shows there was a perception of an agreement to keep these sorts of threads out of the forum, and in the PM and email realm.
---------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM
In The Mudcat Shop: Warfare

It's started again.......oh crap. I was almost certain it would. Friends, we DID agree to keep it to e mail and PM.....perhaps the new ones don't know that, but they should by now, at least this time around.


Nothing against anybody personally here; I am just sick of the intercine warfare. Think I'll go away and just lurk for a while til this is over.

-----------------------------------------
So it isn't just grumpy ole guest complaining, folks. If you do take the time to read through any of these, you can see that many of the current members have been biting their tongues about this.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:27 PM

Times change and so do people's views.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM

Max's post about healers and those criticising them (a couple of years old).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM

The idea that prayer can accomplish anything is insulting to many people.

Aloha BPL:

I am sorry those unenlighened people are offended by the idea that prayer changes things.

I'm allowed to make such statements because *I* was one of those unenlightened people (an athiest most of my life); until I had an OBE that gave me a spiritual awakening in 1996.

I am on the other side of that fence now, and I KNOW from personal first hand experience that prayer DOES change things. I have seen the higher power INSTANTLY heal people through prayer MANY times.

The problem is not with religion; the problem is; people have a lack of faith that the higher powers will hear and answer their prayer, and people have NOT been taught the spiritual technology of prayer.

rightly, as incompassionate. I rarely open prayer threads -- religious tolerance and PC do not extend to the beliefs of atheists.

You're wrong about that too. I am very tolerant of athiests because I WAS one from the age of 12 to the age of 42. And I know from first hand experience that someone preaching at an athiest is pointless. because they think science has all of the answers, and they look at prayer as something that defies the laws of physics; so they close their mind to it.

I want to ask you to do two things BPL.

1: Would you admit that science does NOT have all of the answers?

2. Would you read my website huna and test this spiritual technology for yourself? I am not asking you to do anything other than test this spiritual technology with an open mind "This stuff COULD be real" then after a fair test make up your own mind "This technology works" or "Two Bears is losing his grip on reality".

With that spiritual technology; I have seen the higher powers do INCREDIBLE things. Help relieve pain of a friend that had a slipped disc two thousand miles away in just minutes, I have a folder full of Reiki attunement experiences where I modified these people's energy pathways (Chinese call them meridians and Qi vessels) from 5+ thousand
miles away. I have seen nerves, muscles and tendons repaired in minutes, and the person regain the use of her injured hand. This person was NOT a believer. She was a convinced disbeliever because just a few minutes before she had told me "I don't believe in any of this crap, and after her 3-4 minute healing; her expression was "Damn! This is cool!" This was a lady I just happened to meet at the laundry mat. I have seen many other instant healings.

I have also seen this spiritual technology change the weather too.

In 1998 I was sick and in the hospital, and I had mumbled about this energy work, and they thought I was way out there, and they would not release me from the hospital until the psychiatrist talked with me. She was asking about this energy work and she was convinced that I was loosing touch with reality

Instead of denying this energy work; I challened her to allow me to give a Qigong demonstration to show her this energy was real. She agreed to let me give her a demonstration that afternoon.

First I demonstrated my breath control, and showed her how hot my hands could become (98.2 f between my hands) when the same thermometer was 96.2 f under my armpit, and the same thermometer in my mouth only reached 98.4 f (an alleged impossibility)

Second I asker her to withdraw a vial of blood, and by focusing the mind was able to stop the flow of blood then start it again (just with the mind. (another alleged impossibility)

Third the gentleman on the other side of the room had a rapid heart beat, so I told her to watch the meter while I placed my hands about 6 inches over his heart and by the mind caused his heartbeat to slow down to a normal heart rate.

fourth; I asked her to pick out a cloud we could see through the window. She asked "What do you think you are going to do?" I told her I was going to direct this energy that had done the three things in the test to punch a hole in the cloud. She laughed at me, and said "I'll believe it when I see it!". Two minutes later there was a hole in the cloud and she was in shock, and she said "Mr. Lambdin: Obviously you do not need MY help and she signed my release papers.

About three weeks later; I had the pleasure to teach her Qigong.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Wolfgang:

I am a healer, and *I* criticize some healers.

1. Some of them are poorly trained to serve as a healer, and have no business doing that.

2. Some of them have a higher opinion of themself than they shouldm and in blanket statements and instruct the people to throw their life sustaining medication away "Because you don't need it any more".

3. If a "healer" make you uncomfortable for any reason; use your feet and WALK!

A person should always seek proper health care FIRST; then use healers as a supplement to speed up the healing process.

We are NOT the healers. The higher powers AND the person's subconscious mind willing to be healed fo the real healing. we helers only direct lifeforce energy to get the process started.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM

Wolfgang:

Fumble fingers strikes again.

Here is what part 2 was supposed to say.

2. Some of them have a higher opinion of themself than they should, and in blanket statements instruct the people to throw their life sustaining medication away "Because you don't need it any more".

My appologies for the typos.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM

Please don't misunderstand, Two Bears and others. This isn't about whether I approve of anyone's beliefs. It is about whether or not these sorts of uses of the forum is appropriate, considering how strong peoples' feelings are about this.

Max feels one way, Joe Offer another.

Many of the people who have posted to this thread defend their right to use the forum for prayer/hug/therapy threads, regardless of the bitterness and rancor it can cause. That is why a nifty, elegant solution, which I have referred to a number of times in this thread, but the pro-prayer folks keep ignoring, was worked out years ago.

It was worked out as a way to show some consideration for the forum, not one or side or the other in the debate over whether it belonged here. It was such a dividing issue, people decided that in the best interest of all forum users, the best solution was to use the PMs, email list and the Mudcat annex for the prayer/hug/therapy threads.

It was really nice that those who favor using Mudcat for their prayer chains, healing circles, etc. did that for the sake of the forum. It just seems to me there has been some slippage on it recently.

I'm not looking to start up the war again. I'm just wondering why the prayer threads are back, after quite a long absence, and if people are planning on keeping them here instead of in the PM/email/Mudcat annex realm.

If I know that is what is going on, then I can act accordingly, and so can others.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

Well GUEST - It appears that the only consensus you've seen is one from Sorcha dated a while back.

And the Cat will do whatever it wants to as long as the owner tolerates it. End of story Bro -

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:58 PM

That is why a nifty, elegant solution, which I have referred to a number of times in this thread, but the pro-prayer folks keep ignoring, was worked out years ago.

That was before the Top/Bottom split. I think the forum has a different dynamic now because of that split, and we don't see flame wars over threads like those any more, with the exception of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:07 PM

GUEST, what in the world is your problem?

If you don't like a particular type of discussion, don't participate -- don't even read it.

Every individual member (and non-member, and member-pretending-not-to-be-a-member, like you) has a different set of beliefs and a different attitude towards this forum and what it "should" be. So be it! None of us, as an individual, can change this fact, anyway. So, read the threads whose titles indicate a subject in which you're interested, and skip the others. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you can dig it, dig it; if you can't dig it, don't dig it!

I wish I could take my own advice in this regard, of course. I'm ashamed of how many minutes and hours I waste reading through these inane back-and-forth name-calling sessions. It's pretty much like watching a train wreck; I can't not look.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 06:39 PM

This is off topic, and I apologise, just replying to something (equally off topic) earlier from Two Bears. I won't do it again -- honest.

I want to ask you to do two things BPL.

1: Would you admit that science does NOT have all of the answers?

I will AGREE that science does not PROVIDE all the answers, I will not be manipulated into any admission as though I had tried to perpetrate something dishonest. Science simply means knowledge. It has not the capacity to know anything.

2. Would you read my website huna and test this spiritual technology for yourself? I am not asking you to do anything other than test this spiritual technology with an open mind "This stuff COULD be real" then after a fair test make up your own mind "This technology works" or "Two Bears is losing his grip on reality".

No, I won't be doing this. But as you're already expert in it why don't you do it for me? Pray for something to occur that we could both agree would not occur without your intersession. Anything reasonable, you can even get a third party to act on my behalf as you've already decided I have a closed mind. Let's see how that works.

Subject: RE: BS: What's with all the prayer/hug threads?
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM

Please don't misunderstand, Two Bears and others. This isn't about whether I approve of anyone's beliefs. It is about whether or not these sorts of uses of the forum is appropriate, considering how strong peoples' feelings are about this.

Excuse me; but what is wrong with freedom, and allowing everyone to talk about whatever they want to talk about; then you ignore the threads you are NOT interested in? That's what I do.

Many of the people who have posted to this thread defend their right to use the forum for prayer/hug/therapy threads, regardless of the bitterness and rancor it can cause. That is why a nifty, elegant solution, which I have referred to a number of times in this thread, but the pro-prayer folks keep ignoring, was worked out years ago.

Excuse me (again) but the only bitterness and rancor I have seen is from you and others that want to quash the freedom of those they disagree with.

here. It was such a dividing issue, people decided that in the best interest of all forum users, the best solution was to use the PMs, email list and the Mudcat annex for the prayer/hug/therapy threads.

Excuse me (for the third time); but how the heck are those of us (wanting to discuss this material) supposed yo find the others wanting to discuss this material with one another?

I'm not looking to start up the war again. I'm just wondering why the prayer threads are back, after quite a long absence, and if people are planning on keeping them here instead of in the PM/email/Mudcat annex realm.

I am not wanting to start a war either. I just do not want some self appointed dictator stating what we can and can not discuss.

ANL -2B