BS: America WAS a Christian Nation

Subject: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:11 AM

America WAS a Christian Nation!


Today, we are asking God to bless America. But, how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to September 11, He was not welcome in America. Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.   Because the Muslim faith is so sensitive to the fact that the United States was founded on Christian principles and the politically correct left are doing everything that they can to force Christians underground, I suggest that the following bears repeating.

Since the middle 1960's, the United States has embraced almost every concept imaginable that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. The U.S. has embraced the occult, middle eastern religions, far eastern religions and have made up some of our own. We have decided that it is appropriate to kill our unborn children and that the family structure is whatever each individual decides that it should be.

We have forgotten the words of the U.S. Constitution and have chosen to make up our own rules in spite of the vision of our founding fathers. I think that it is appropriate every now and then to revisit our founders and appreciate the sacrifices that they made for us. Then, we need to ask ourselves, what are we willing to do to continue the freedoms that they gave everything to secure for us?

You are encouraged to make copies, and share with others, so that the truth of our nation's history will be told.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:26 AM

You know Chuck, the comcept that this nation was founded as a theocracy is not very accurate. Many of our founding fathers were fine men, who did not espouse the kind of "Christianity" you are referring to. There are lots of wonderful, ethical kind people in this world who are not Christians. I happen to ba a Christian, but this mentality I find offensive, and I feel that many non Christians would be also.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:35 AM

Thanks Chuck.

I have re-read the Preamble of the constitution, The 10 amendments, and a few other interesting bits recently. I have read the biographies of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, amd Jsames Madison. I rently a book called The Miracle in Philadelphia.

The end result seems to be a suggestion that the people of nation behave in a Christian manner. No where can I find a line that defines a church or a specific definition of a means of faith beyond that simple admonistion.

The idea of tolerance and forgiveness, both very Christian values, seem to have been lost in the practice of most Christian by Proclmation people abroad in the country of late.

Now, are you the same Chuck Hemrick who is a comic book author and artist from the Hudson River valley?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:38 AM

Chuck Hemrick,

Good to see you back!

Whatever you have to say is worth hearing.

If you re-join as a member, you will take some lumps from closed minds, but that is part of life. You know that aleady.

By my bedside I always have two books, The Bible and the U.S. Constitution.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

pdq:

Which Bible?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

why, I thought the leaders of our nation were avowed, dedicated, sincere Christians....just ask 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:46 AM

BillD,

The definition of a Christian is "one who believes, professes to believe, or is thought to believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ" ( I think that is from Webster's 3rd).

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

beardedbruce,

Since you asked, my Bible is "revised standard".

My copy of the U.S. Constitution is "pre-Janet Reno".

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM

Its interesting that any one of those definitions can apply without implying the other two.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

"what are we willing to do to continue the freedoms that they gave everything to secure for us?

Keep church and state separate, as you well know. It's this narrow vision of the world through a fundamentalist christian lens that separation of church and state is all about. And amazingly, it was the Baptists who fought the hardest to make sure church and state stayed separate--because they were afraid that otherwise the Puritans would legislate them out of existence.

I learned that from a friend who is a local Southern Baptist minister. Interesting guy. Who'd have thought we'd see eye-to-eye on anything?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:03 PM

What is so great about the US Constitution is that it protects those who do NOT believe that Jesus is/was a messiah, and likewise any who do not accept religion at all.

But I do agree with your thesis about Islam taking over in the US; however, not because people are falling away from Christianity but, far more worrying for the 'established' culture, through the vast and increasing number of polygamous families. While Isalm embraces and accepts that sort of thing the Christian way outlaws it.

It is only a matter of time until Allah takes over from Jesus.

I also think our constant harping and working to protect the rights of the individual while IGNORING the other side of the coin - responsibilities - is the main source of the evil that polygamity brings. I do not think I should begin to discuss the political/economic consequences as these are already eating away at what we take for normal

I also think a critical a reading history and Bible essential to anybody who thinks there is something out/up/there etc...would help a great deal. Chuck read it again - but this time think NOT like today and really much different to anything YOU COULD imagine.

Bad enough to have a money lender in my street, but his cousin's ancestor thumped into my head telling me to turn the other pocket?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:46 PM

Has anyone mentioned to Hemrick that Christ wasn't American?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: MaineDog
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:01 PM

Does anyone seriously think that Allah will "take over" from Jesus?

Christians can get to Heaven by faith alone ( I wish more of them had that much faith )

Muslims can only be sure of getting there if they die in a jihad while taking out infidels (Americans or other enemies) otherwise, you never know whether you have done enough "good works" until it is too late --

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM

. . . or that America was originally the home of indigenous peoples who had religions of their own when Europeans first arrived?

Canada has a multi-cultural society, and we seem to be doing OK accepting each other. I am Christian by definition--hell, I'm Catholic--but that deosn't give me a corner on the God market. Seems more and more that self-proclaimed Christians figue they really know about God, and everyone had better, too. So, while I appreciate your post Mr Hemrick, I don't see what it has to do with the Constitution. The functional clause was ". . .one nation under God . . .", not one nation under Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

America, assuming that the United States is meant by this rather than one or more of the dozens of other nations that comprise the American continents, is still a Christian nation. Most of the citizens and other inhabitants espouse some form or another of the Christian religion or, if they do not do so formally, share the same basic Christian values of their countrymen.   As GUEST,chuck hemrick so correctly says, "since the middle 1960's, the United States has embraced almost every concept imaginable that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles." Among these concepts is that of the religious fundementalists who teach that there is only one "true way," even if their version of Christianity has nothing in common with that of the Christians of early Rome, the teachings of St. Augustine, or the beliefs of our Founding Fathers.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:13 PM

RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation

"The functional clause was ". . .one nation under God . . .", not one nation under Jesus."

. . . so, while we're mentioning revisionist history, . . .

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

The further anyone gets from "Ghad" or "Xtianity" the more respect I have for them...

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

It's the political correctness that gets me down on a such a subject as this...

Religion is a massive cause for wars in the world, I am technically a christian but I wish religion didn't exist, it causes difference which makes people feel they are the righteous. Look at 'jihads' (holy wars) and Israel. Such a mad world.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:28 PM

I am not a Christian.

Occasionally I encounter this smarmy, condescending, paternalistic, authoritarian dogmatism frpm self-styled Christians who are so unsure of their own natures that they let themselves get wound up about their fellow humans, and become preachers of intolerance, hatred, obsessive controlling resentment, anger and underhanded hateful control mechanisms.

I find these things, and these moods, and these people, temporarily, to be obsessive, neurotic, unstable, aberrated, and a poor example of human compassion, as well, often as being exceeding ignorant and dull of wit.

That's just my two cents' worth, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

The sooner this globe bans all religions and flags (until we're mature enough to deal with them), the better for all.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

Amos...you are not a Christian, you are an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:24 PM

Matthew 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
signs 2nd Thess 2:9, Rev 13:13

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

How bloody christian of YOU, pdq!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Well said Amos. And a lot more politely than I would have put it.

I learned a hell of a lot more about tolerance and love of one's neighbor, from a year living in an Arab village than I did from many years of "Christian" schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM

PDQ:

I refuse to stand up for the kind of bitchy intolerance the starter of this thread is promoting. If that makes me an asshole in your bnook, so be it -- I doubt it will sell many copies, though.

I think hateful and arrogant exclusionism such as promoted by Mister Humchuck upthread is unChristian in the extreme. I'm sorrry if you disagree with me.

Do you think Mister Bush is a Christian as well, then? On a Crusade, is he?

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:51 PM

Amos...your statement of 03:28 PM is beneath contempt. I have never met a Christian who matches the model you have constructed.

I will back off and say "the post of 03:28 PM is the type of statement that usually comes from an asshole".

Chuck Hemrick made many positive post as Tar_heel. His family band is truly folk music, the reason that Mudcat was started. If there is no room for non-PC variance on Mudcat, it is not Mr. Hemrick's fault, it is the fault of a small band of PC Brown Shirts.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:56 PM

Anyone here is free to try to convert others to his/her religious or political belief- Just remember that that means that the person trying to convert others is fair game to the efforts and comments of others. Only fair...

Are you an armed nudest, like the Bible tells you to be?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:57 PM

Were the Pilgrims who hanged the Quakers Christians? Is George W. Bush a Christian? He has signed more death warrants than any governor in history.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM

Luke 22


35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

PDQ:

I was describing people I have met. If you have not, well, perhaps I've just been unlucky?
ANyway, sorry I offended you -- I am assuming you don't think the shoe fits, anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:03 PM

And let him that is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:05 PM

ah, but those who are born again are without sin- and can throw all the stones they want...

"If Christ died for my sins, he over-reacted."

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM

BB,

That is the funniest line I have ever heard from you!! Thanks!

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM

As that great philosopher Peter Green once said, "Please don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answers that you want me to".

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

pdq:

Have you sold your clothes and bought a sword?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:02 PM

beardedbruce,

No, and if that is what the Bible demands, it will be a difficult decision.

First point, it gets a bit cold here in the winter. Also, as another great philosopher once said, "I just don't look good naked anymore".

Second point, a 38 caliber or a 44 is a proper arm, at least out here in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:03 PM

Ah, but the (red-letter in my Bible) words of JC specify a sword...

And what does your physical comfort have to do with fulfilling your religious obligations?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

Or are you saying you get to pick and choose which of His words you want to follow?



And yes, I have a sword... Got one before I was ordained, so I still have my clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

This thread appears to be a lot of trollishness. The original poster knows nothing about American history and less about the Constitution. He is a trolling proseletyser for HIS brand of christianity

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

And I shall convert him to the rightous path of armed nudism.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:17 PM

It's a calculated risk, bb.

As long a death bed conversions are OK, I am going to wait until the last minute!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:20 PM

so, why then should ANY of us follow any of the rules of the Bible?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:21 PM

This is your soul that you place at risk. What if you are hit by a truck?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:24 PM

How can you ask for anyone to base their behaviour upon the Bible if you are not willing to, yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM

And, in case anyone was wondering, our founding fathers did have swords....

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

I'd suggest sussing out truths rather than rules...they tend to retain their relevance a bit longer!

Our founding fathers did have swords, it is true...but I believe they also wore clothes.

Unless I have been badly misguided, which   is perfectly possible.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Kendall doesn't need a sword. He is armed with a rapire wit.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

Oh but I also have a Claymore for the folks who are not thinking!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

And Claymore has a rapire for those who are!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

I just attended a wonderful and enlightening lecture and tour at the Old Manse in Concord, Massachusetts.

It is clear that many of the colonial settlers, and colonies themselves, were founded by Christians, in particular, nonconformist Christians. The Puritans who settled New England were of the same sect that led to the overthrow of the English King during the Revolution in 17th Century England. The Quakers were instrumental in the founding of Pennsylvania. During the American Colonial Era, the Puritans gave way to the Congregationalists, who distinguished themselves by electing their leaders (and refused to call where they worshipped 'churches'). The Congregation split when the majority voted to become Unitarian.

There were historical happenings known as The Great Awakening, and The Second Great Awakening. Some early luminaries such as Ralph Waldo Emerson gave up on Unitarianism and embraced Transcendentalism.

What this adds up to is that whatever you mean by 'Christian' was in fact a broad ranging exploration of the intellect that went beyond what many people, perhaps yourselves, regard as Christian in this day and age. When the Framers are referring to 'Nature and Nature's God' without mentioning Christ, I think you are hard put to make Jesus the center of some imaginary historical America.

That having been said, Americans have certainly put religion high in their personal lives. Early American villages were pretty much homogeneous and didn't perceive a difference between church and state. The buildings people worshipped in were the ones they conducted town meetings in.

My main point is that you can't properly put this issue on a bumper sticker. And if you want to sleep with a bible and a copy of the Constitution, fine by me. I just think a pillow is a bit softer.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Well, Chuck Hemrick, I have never hidden the fact here at Madcat that I am of Christain Faith but would take exception to your assumption that the "left" has much of an influence on the church or the policies of the government. You chose the 60's as the turnining point. To me and many other Christains, yes, the 60's was an important decade because many of us saw first hand what's behind those nice suits, dresses abd pot luck dinners at the church in Thursday nights and what we found wasn't at all pretty... Yep, I'm not sure where you were going to chucrn then, or if you were going to church but in thre church I grew up in, our fine caring minister was run out of the church for, ahhhh, being against the Vietnam War. So were many families, including my own where my father was a decon. Yep, this is what I saw and, rwll ya what, it was ugle and so unlike anything that I had been taught about the way Jesus wants us to live.

And it wasn't just my church that purged itself of them "commie bleeding heart peacenics" but churches across America as intolerant heathens showed loving compassionate folks to the door... Now I'm not going to say it was like that in every church but I don't think you would find too many liberal Chrisatins who went thru it that don't have similar stories about their churches.

Now, just in case an pinkos goy thru the first purge we have the anti-gay movement spreading thru what's left of Christain churches, further isolating anyone who might actaully believe in tolerance and love so that these folks will next be shown the door.

Now as Jerry Rasmussen pointed out this has not hit the black churches and I can honestly say that as a white Christain the only church I have felt comfortable in since the 60's are black churches, Oh, I'm sure this will get some folks going but, hey, its the truth. Seems that Jesus has holed up in them while white Christains figure out how to either get their churches back or start new ones...

As per usual, MO...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM

American Christianity today is hardly Christianity: it is less about the New Testament than it is about the Old Testament. No love, tolerance, peace, gentleness, respect for women, cheek-turning -- none of that wussy stuff.

American Christianity today is all about judgment, control (look out, women!), power, retribution, smiting, wrath, and imposition of all these things on others.

Abortions are not okay, but wars and executions are okay. It's not death itself that is bad -- only certain types of death.

Jesus Christ would not recognize what some Americans -- fundamentalist Americans -- call Christianity. He would be the first one judged and found wanting by these dipshits.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

I think we have been had. What Guest Chuck Hemerick posted looks like Spam to me. Look at what I have italicized. It seems he has cut and pasted someone else's editorial and turned it into a chain letter. It doesn't even appear that he included the stuff that was erased form the textbooks.

We seem to be spending a lot of energy and animosity on a hit and run post.

Today, we are asking God to bless America. But, how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to September 11, He was not welcome in America. Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.   Because the Muslim faith is so sensitive to the fact that the United States was founded on Christian principles and the politically correct left are doing everything that they can to force Christians underground, I suggest that the following bears repeating.

Since the middle 1960's, the United States has embraced almost every concept imaginable that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. The U.S. has embraced the occult, middle eastern religions, far eastern religions and have made up some of our own. We have decided that it is appropriate to kill our unborn children and that the family structure is whatever each individual decides that it should be.

We have forgotten the words of the U.S. Constitution and have chosen to make up our own rules in spite of the vision of our founding fathers. I think that it is appropriate every now and then to revisit our founders and appreciate the sacrifices that they made for us. Then, we need to ask ourselves, what are we willing to do to continue the freedoms that they gave everything to secure for us?

You are encouraged to make copies, and share with others, so that the truth of our nation's history will be told.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,The Allmighty Dollar
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:14 PM

Oh, sure, it WAS a Christian nation. Once. Now I am in command. I rule. Believe it. You all live to serve Me and worship at My $Feet. You will all die and pass away as the grass that withers and the day that ends. I will rule on. I am the Allmighty Dollar, and everything you do is done of, by, and for Me. I am the Unreal become Real, the Fiction made Flesh. I am the power of life and death, the reason behind all productive and destructive activities, the arbiter of all trading, the creator of weapons of mass destruction, the alpha and the omega. I am the Corporate Seal, Omnipotent, Deathless, and Eternal. Bow before me and tremble, ye CEOs, lawyers, bondsmen, and slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:34 AM

Welcome back, Chuck. I can't say I agree with your political or religious views, but I've certainly enjoyed your music that I've heard.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:48 AM

The love of money is the root of all evil. Just ask Cheney, Halliburton, Harkin and Enron.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

The belief systems practiced in the Americas prior to colonization were/are "authochthonous," meaning they rose and evolved with people in specific landscapes (the online dictionary says "originates where they were found") and they respond to the particular natural and cultural environment that exists in that place. They include ontological material such as origin stories; strict practices to do with living in the world and who does what; and a structured eschatological (death and afterlife) practices and beliefs.

Christianity was at one time autochthonous--when it was a small belief system in the deserts of an area on the southeastern end of the Mediterranean. Now as an organized religion (i.e., "institution to express belief in a divine power") it acts like an institution or a corporation, expanding it's power base and always working on the promotion end of things. (Interesting also, that the other two industrial religions happened to arise in the same small area? They certainly learned to share the prostelatizing and recruitment behaviors.)

What christians today are practicing is something that has been translated, rewritten, and retranslated by powerful men for powerful rulers. It is in no way shape or form tied to the land or a sense of place--it has merged with science and business but is still disguised as simply a religion. It has migrated and colonized many parts of the world and has been the cause of many wars and land grabs.

Beardedbruce says Anyone here is free to try to convert others to his/her religious or political belief- Just remember that that means that the person trying to convert others is fair game to the efforts and comments of others. Only fair... but a lot of people practicing other religions in the world don't feel that way--they live and let live. The big three industrial religions don't--christianity, judaism, and the moslem religions. But they're based on an overt power base and of course want to convert new recruits--they're part of a vast and legal pyramid scheme. Marx didn't call religion "the opiate for the masses" for nothing--billions of people are to some degree controlled by their religions. The religions leaders at the top have a lot of cash to burn when their flock coughs it up every week in church, synagog or mosque.

That was a funny line, Bruce, about Jesus overreacting. Just thought I'd mention it since I haven't given you much slack in the past. And I'm not likely to on this, either, with all of the chapter and verse being ladled into this thread, even with the diversion of humor.

("Religion comes from the oppressed, but benefits those at the top," and other interesting quotes, appear here in a study-aid online from the UK.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Duane D. at work
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:40 PM

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Some folks here seem to think that reference to God automatically means Christian. There are many religions that reference God and followers who believe in God and are not Christians. Afterall, this thread does say BS, does it not?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:56 PM

The original essay from which the incoherent excerpty that started this thread was taken was apprantly from someone devout Christian named John F Morrison. It is rabble-rousing SOuthern-Baptist flavored intense ideology. I consider it is not in keeping witht he founding spirit of this nation. That is my own opinion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM

I hadn't noticed that the first message was a copy-paste. I should have known. It's less than our one-screen limit, so I won't hassle with it. This Google Search shows that the very same article appears in at least 285 other places on the Internet.

Our copy-paste limits apply only to non-music items. If it's about music, please post the entire text, if at all possible. For non-music articles that you want to copy and post, our limit is one screen of text, which is a lot of information. If the article is longer, post excerpts or a summary in your own words, plus a link to the source of the text. Whenever you post information from other sources, please tell us where you got it from - this is especially important when you are posting lyrics, because it helps answer a lot of questions. Generally, we ask people NOT to post lyrics that are copied directly from the Digital Tradition (or Yet Another Digital Tradition), or from messages already posted in the Forum - it confuses our song harvesters.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

At the risk of spoiling a perfectly good rant from Brother Chuck Hemmick, the Fathers of Our Nation were mostly Deists, NOT Christians...might want to research this, so as to be better informed.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM

Well said, TAH! But Upthread Chuck was just reflecting something someone else wrote, and that incompletely to the point of unclarity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

"The functional clause was ". . .one nation under God . . .", not one nation under Jesus."

Christians have a hard time reading?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Not reading--just differentiatin' ....

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: belter
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:41 PM

America WAS a Free Nation!

I seem to recall hearing in school that america had religious freedom. The founding fathers may have been nominally christion, or at least deist, but also were willing to discuss religion frankly. They had an open mindedness that was perhaps odatious for the time. If what they meant by "religious freedom" was actually the freedom of choosing your brand of christianity, then who cares? True religious freedom is essential to our way of life. Anything less gives the lie to our claim to being a free country.

I don't understand how calling something christian, like a country for example, makes it a good thing. If its good and it's christian then christians may be proud of it, but if its not and it's christian, then they should be assamed. Not call it christain as if that makes it good. Christianity, no dought against the teachings of jesus, has been used to justify all maner of war and atrosity for the last 2000 years. In this it is not alone among religions.

I'd like to sugjest that greater good will come from tollorence than from exclusion. I can tollorate chuck hemrick's close minded supersitious deist dogma. Opps, did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Many millions, myself included regard Jesus Christ as a giant flop as the Messiah.

I think I will continue to wait for the real one to show up.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

will you know him because he turns water into Manischewitz?

(that's a JOKE, son..)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Either that, or Mogen David!

Stay cool!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:16 PM

The trouble with missiahs is they have to do so much before anybody pays the slightest attention to them, then if it's attention they need and they are what they claim, why not grant totaly happiness to everybody?

I don't buy the NT story simply because the main character spoke in riddles and never actualy - as reported - owned up to being anything other than a slightly fringy Jew, and here I must remind myself he wasn't that bad of a Jew to deserve execution, but ... hey, still ain't enough reason to call him 'the' Messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Bottom Feeder
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

Tar_Heel was a right wing, religious nutjob before he went away. To tell the truth, I am sorry to see his sorry ass trying to stir up more hatred and discontent. Crawl back under your rock Chuck, turn on Rush Limbaugh, and quit peddling your bigoted crap around here.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Chuck Hemrick
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:37 PM

just a note to say thanks to those who responded to the article i left here!!!!i am not back in mudcat as a member,but i do not sneak in here and leave rational messages,articles,etc.,for the enjoyment of upsetting anyone here,without leaving my name!
i know this group mostly consist of the liberal left,which i am not a member, nor support!
i am a hard nose conservative and state my beliefs just as the rest of you do!
(and,i am the same chuck hemrick...aka,tar_heel,that once was a member here)!
i am going the folk thingy alone now as "tarheel and friends"!
my son/daughter have their own lives to live and i do not pressure them to travel with me to perform anywhere!
my wife peg,has health problems and cannot perform with me anymore!
her bass fiddle is for sale to anyone interested!
you can see it in our website: http://hemrickfamilysingers.homestead.com
$1000.00 is the asking price...you pay for shipping!
it's the bass fiddle that is in the photo with poeg on the home page!
anyway,i'll be back from time to time and leave more conservative views of mine!
i support our troops,the president and god bless the u.s.a.!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

TO GUEST:BOTTOM FEEDER!rather be a right wing nut than a low lying commie,el pinko liberal like you!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

tar_heel...thanks for the visit. God bless, and may you and your wife be well.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:16 PM

Hey, Chuck!!

Thanks for coming by -- I wish I could take you up on the bass fiddle!! Sorry to hear about your wife's health troubles, and I hope she recovers her full stamina.

I t looks like you've been making some beautiful music for many years, and I wish you many happy returns from all the joy you've made playing for others. Regardless of our political leanings, we are about music, here, and you're part of that family even if you only show up once in a great while!

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:24 PM

Hi, Chuck! You may be pleased to know that one of my best musical friends locally describes himself as so rightwing that everyone else in the World is to the left of him...and yet we get along fine. He says there is no one he can vote for because none of them are far enough to the right. I am a left wing radical, a strong believer in the benefits of socialism. He and I usually disagree on a lot politically, yet we tend to identify a lot of the same problems in society...but propose different solutions to them.

Strange, isn't it?

He would like to turn the clock back to when Canada was a white, Anglo-Scottish-Irish culture (with a French enclave)...kick the French out...kick all the other "foreigners" out and relive the "good old days".

Ain't gonna happen. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

Funny, Little Hawk, that your friend doesn't realize that Canada was never like that. Even without the French or other foreigners, there were still the native people who were here before the European whites. What would your friend make of them?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:02 AM

it should be stated that there is no reference to Jesus in the US Constitution. Hardly an argument for a Christian nation.

Also, John Adams informed the island of Barbary Coast to it's Muslim inhabitants, "We are not a Christian nation."

Tom Jefferson in his letter to the Baptists reaffirmed his view of separation of Church and State. Jefferson would not recognize the religion of the right-wing evangelicals today as being a valid Christianity.

The Ten Commandments were based on The Code of Hannarabi, a pre-Christian ideal from the Indus Valley.

In short, the so-called religious Right-wing evangelicals have hi-jacked Jesus for their own political advantage. They seek to impose their limited moral values on the rest of society by offering the ruse that God is somehow being outlawed. This is not true. Any school kid has the right to pray whenever he or she wishes as long as it's not forced down the throat of others who have the right not to.

The US is not a Theocracy and never will be. For the evangelists, it's a losing battle and they only hurt themselves by ignoring in economic disparity in the country today.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM

"Right-wing evangelicals have hi-jacked Jesus for their own political advantage."

Frank, you are so right. Jesus is respected by the Muslims, and accepted as one of their most important prophets of God. Jesus is accepted by the vast majority of Hindus and Buddhists and revered as one of the most important prophets of God. Most Native American spiritual leaders admire Jesus and his essential teachings, because they are universal teachings. The people whom I regard as almost the least exemplary of Jesus' actual teachings are the Religious Right in America. Like the fanatics of the Spanish Inquisition before them, they have co-opted a beautiful spiritual teaching and turned it into a monstrosity.

And as others have pointed out, "God" is not an entity exclusive to the Christian religion, therefore a nation "under God" is not by definition a Christian nation. The Christians don't "own" God. :-)

peedeecee - Actually, my rightwing pal is very pro-Native American! In this he is consistent, as he always tends to favour the indigenous people (those who have been in an area longer) over the new arrivals. He's basically anti-immigrant. This is a bit ironical, though, because HE emigrated from Scotland to Canada when he was in his 20's. :-) He figures that doesn't count, because Canada was already an English-speaking and predominantly Anglo-Saxon culture when he arrived. He seems to be bothered by different cultures arriving from foreign shores. He is under the impression, same as Kipling was, that "the twain shall never meet".

What he is really objecting to is change, and that is a typically old time conservative position, isn't it? But it's not neo-conservative! Those guys would like to make big changes...all for the worse (unless you're very rich). He's not neo-conservative. He's old time conservative, but more than most. This helps explain why he can't find anyone to vote for. His kind of conservatism has almost ceased to exist on the political party level.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

In the United States, at least until recent years, religion has been safe from interference by the government. But especially within very recent years, the government has not been safe from interference by religion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

True enough, but that's small potatoes when compared to the influence of $money...(the real prevailing religion these days)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 04:02 PM

. . .and religiou$ money. . .

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

The main thing wrong with this thread is the title. It's bullshit. America never was a Christian Nation. Show me ONE reference to Jesus in the Constitution or B of R. Show me ONE! And if you can't, then kindly #@%* &!! about it. Warmest thanks.

Chuck, I hope your missus heals, buddy. The best to you both.

B Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:01 PM

True enough, Stilly.

Bruce - Well, I think what the poster may have had in mind was that mainstream North American society was mostly composed of at least nominal Christians until fairly recently...whether or not it was so stated in the official governmental documents. Most people at the time of the Civil War, for instance, would certainly have identified themselves as Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:21 PM

IMO, LH, the 'one nation under God' was put there to allow for other religions. Christians don't seem to allow for much that ain't Christian. Kinda lately it's 'my way or the highway' and I'm tired of it. No offense to anyone. The fundies seem to think they have a corner on the God market--and the reserve parking in heaven--and it don't wash with me. They are trying to manipulate the American government (and doing a good job at it I might add), and I find them to be untrustworthy bastards no matter how much they stuff God down my throat. Sorry, but that's my view. I don't have the wisdom of Solomon, but then, neither do they. They seem to have got his riches, though.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:03 PM

The teachings of Jesus have a long history of being hijacked, edited and rewritten to suit the needs of powerseeking people whose sole desire is to maintain a stranglehold over the lives of others. It began just a couple of centuries after Jesus' death when the gospels which portrayed Jesus as a teacher who said "I'm not so special. Each of you has the potential to be as I am." were tossed out and labeled heresy while only those that portrayed him as a leader who said "I am unique and you must worship me." were retained as part of the canon. How can a hierarchal church seeking to control the lives of its followers embrace a figurehead who says that hierarchy and control are illegitimate? It can't. So, it cherrypicks the stories that work toward its ends and ignores the others. Remember that Jesus himself wrote nothing. The gospels upon which the Christian religion are based were written by his followers. And like the blind men describing the elephant, each of the authors of the gospels described the aspects of Jesus that he perceived. Taken as a whole, they may do a fairly good job of portraying a man who was, undoubtedly, one of the most enlightened beings to ever walk the earth. But the gospels which the early church canonized (and upon which all subsequent flavors of Christianity are based) don't tell the entire picture and I, for one, will not associate myself with any church that claims that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:13 PM

Well put, BWL, and more succinct than my post several yards up the screen.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: belter
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 04:37 PM

Right on, BWL.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

there are a couple of issues...one is whether ANY religion makes any sense, the other being how to deal with the very strict, non-compromise statements of the New Testament, which give ammunition to those who would promote Conservative Christianity as **THE** religion, no matter what the Constitution says.

If one believes in Jesus, and accepts that "I am the way, the truth..."etc...and that "no man comes unto the Father but by ME", (and other narrow statements) then they are sort of compelled to force their religion on others.

Many other religions have a simpler attitude.."We have OUR prophets and Gods, you have yours...we don't argue with YOU unless you make fun of US!"....the USA is supposed to allow free expression of religion, while promoting none..but you'd never know it to hear blessings invoked "in the name of Jesus" for everything from sports events to wars to mall openings!

I get rather annoyed...I'm sure that if there is a God, he can hear your prayers if you do them silently

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

So Chuck Spams us, then comes back to tell us that he spammed us and will do so again, then he insults a couple of people does another ad then slinks off again. Good for him. I hope he sells his fiddle.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

Friends,

    1)Jesus spoke kindly and openly to a woman of a different nation and religion and culture. You all are name-calling and you supposedly have this group in common. Stop that.

    2)Jesus spent His life reaching out to those whose lives and choices weren't always the best ones... the Christians out here seem to be pre-occupied with quoting Scripture and, as He said, "neglecting the weightier matters... justice, mercy, good faith." So stop that, too.

    3) The Bible is the record of God's love for man, and the pronouncement of judgment on those who reject that love; salvation is for those who believe in the One God sent and persevere in well-doing, not losing heart, not rendering evil for evil but always being the most humble examples of Christ-likeness. I hear you Christians trumpeting about how right you are. Stop that, too.

    The Christ I serve is the One, though blameless and sinless, died a sinner's guilty death and never even cursed those who killed Him. You can't even bear to converse without slamming one another. Stop that.

    The Bible says to exhort and rebuke with all patience and long-suffering so that our brethren can learn to be more like Jesus. Fellow Christians, consider yourselves rebuked in love for the sake of our precious Master. I love you.

FoF+

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:18 PM

Who is this fop?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:26 PM

Me? Just a fop. A regular old fop. Like all the fops you've seen before.

    Just trying to get people out of each others' hair over the whole Christianity vs. patriotism thing. I see often that some people don'tthink the two are very compatible, others think that Christ is a Republican. All I'm doing is getting the Christians (hopefully) to stop quoting all the stuff about judgement of others and start them thinking about servanthood and humility. Big fop that I am, after all.

FoF+

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:50 PM

PLEASE...no preaching here! We can discuss religion, but you are PROMOTING religion.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

I'm confused (again and still). Is Tar-Heels the Mudcatter who openly pursued Sandy Toes through the forum a while back? And is Peg Sandy Toes?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:10 PM

well jack,believe it or not,there is life away from the computer,especially the Mudcat room!
and,if i may say so,it's a beautiful life out there and i don't intend to waste my time and energy wondering who's going to insult me,or ridicule me next,in here!
after all,if it wasn't for the hard nosed conservatives like me in here,you liberal jackels would be bored to death day to day,trying to come up with something worthwhile to say and print in your little biased forum here!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM

Chuck! You're back and you aren't preaching or selling anything! Welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:18 PM

sorry jack...SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:30 PM

America, at her best, is a place where people can escape what they once were and pursue the chance to be something they are not yet. Most of the flag-wavers who argue about whether America was or is a Christian nation or not fail to see the trend of right-wing Republican Christians trying their hardest not to allow people to pursue what they can be, but trying to FORCE people (and this nation) to be what they believe it should be.

    Granted, I believe that the nation whose God is the Lord (YHWH, the I AM) will be blessed, and America has been. But America's future is no different than the future of any other nation on earth: We will all stand accountable for the gift of life God has given us. Those of us who try to legislate righteousness are going to find out that "the wrath of man worketh NOT the righteousness of God."

    I am a dyed-in-the-wool Christian, but believe me when I say that if adherents of other faiths treated me the way some of my Christian brothers treat people from their puplits, this would be a scary and miserable life indeed.

FoF+

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Reality Check
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM

Mommy, he's baaacck.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Reality Credit
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:16 PM

CHUCK HEMRICK:

You have despoiled the nature of Christianity by bringing it into the base world of politics. Shame on you. Fu#k off and sin no more.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 10:19 PM

SIghhhhh.

America's blessings come from her trilliions of dollars worth of natural resources, her natural isolation by large seas from other parts of the world east and west, and the fact that her indigenous population had not developed steel, more than they come from any pie-in-the-sky foofaraw two-bit figure head of sanctimony.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM

I think FoF misses the point. I don't see Christians slamming each other. What I see is many who use Christianity to inflict their views on others. The problem with using an approach that preaches by exhorting others to "stop that" is that it often reflects upon the "preacher". Why is it that the preacher consider himself as so special to talk down to others?

Too many preachers abound but few who can walk the walk.

There is not one unified Christianity today. There are sects and followers who disagree on the nature of Christianity as there always has been throughout our history. There may have been one Jesus and I think that his teachings are loud and clear in the Beatitudes. I don't see them being followed by any so-called Christians today.

As to this business of "righteousness". It's a quagmire because those who espouse it misuse it as if to say they know what it is and others don't. This kind of condescension gives Christianity and religion in general a bad name.

I am impressed with the interpretation of Joseph Campbell, I believe to be a genius, who sees the power of myth in religion as a socializing force but sees it also as deviant when it is narrowly and literally applied by demagoguery.

This is an important discussion because religion has found it's way into the political area through the devious mantle of "values" which are lauded by the Religious Right and have ignored basic human rights and values such as economic relief for the working poor, the corruption found in many major American corporations today, the infringement of civil liberties through fear of "terrorism" and the neo-con subjugation of women through attempting to legislate their bodies. Also, the introduction of pre-emption as an American foreign policy has defiled any claim to divinity.

The "religious" wars have been manufactured as part of the Culture Wars at the expense of a class war which is very much with us today.

You will begin to see, now, the rise of the Religious Left which is concerned with these human rights and have been silent too long through the intimidation of the media, and neo-con pundits.

It's a new day.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:24 PM

Frank,

You are one smart guy, amigo!


A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

Yes, and there most certainly IS a religious Left.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Dewey
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:43 AM

I understand your point reguarding the moral decay of the nation. I also see *THAT* more as the issue than the population getting an influx of other religions.

We would be somewhat LESS of a nation, if we told other human beings which God they MUST Worship. It is after all: a free country.

I believe many of the founding fathers DID read the Bible, i.e. Washington, Franklin, Jefferson etc.

I also know that despite there Christian experiences, they also taught religious tolarance and acceptance toward all cultures and religions, and also believed in a "Supreme Being"

This is the God of the United States, in the founding fathers time as well as now. It was made so, not because the founding father didn't have their own views on God, they certainly did. They just understood the importance of the free discourse of ideas as well as the moral necessity to Rely on a higher power for guidance (i.e. God)

If you think that christianity is declining however, I would strongly disagree. Actually I believe there are probably more christians now than ever before, and churches are flurishing (Just look in you local phone book for Christian Churches and I am CERTAIN you will find more of this variety than any other PERIOD. So I can't see the problem as that.

I think if America is to be a strong nation it has to sincerely believe in the right of freedom of religion and political discourse. I know Franklin had a lot to say on that in his writtings. I have always admired the man because he had an OPEN mind.

For example, established Christianity in America would be far from open: and there is a good and logical reason not to let the Jerry Fawell's and the Pat Robertson's of the world make the laws of the Nation. I can't think of anything more anti-democratic than that.

I think the old addage and song, "You go to your church and I'll go to mine" applies here.

I see the ungodliness not so much in the fact that America has synogues and mosques (however you spell it) But in the General Lack of Morality over all. This is the real SIN, not the fact that everyone in America is not Christian.

When for example America allows Howard Stern on prime time radio and television, (and in front of our young people and children) to talk about oral sex and and asks various guest to strip before him and show him their "Arse". Then the country has a real moral crisis on its hands. Judgment will come on America for THESE THINGS ONLY, not freedom of choice, even Jesus did not DEMAND we be christian, that was our choice and a free choice at that.

Please stop fearing Christianity as on the decline, it is still number one in American Society. As for the moral standards of the country that is another issue entirely.

America HAS turned away from God but not because it tolerates other religions and fellow citizens. I see this more or less as healthy for the nation not harmful. For example, Go try living under the Iranian government's policy of religion if you doubt me.



Sure we Christians lose a few battles (i.e. the Ten Commandments, prayer in school, the controversy over the pledge of allegence etc.)

Just Remember it isn't bad to have separation of Church and state, even if some of those people out there (atheists, anti-christians etc.) occasionaly have there way with policy. One still can go to a church of one's choosing and read the bible. I know my own is within less than a foot of me, and no-one from the government has come around yet to take it from me, and much like the heritage of my flag, the Country will always have Jesus in their hearts and in their homes, As for how they live their lives nowadays, that is another issue entirely.

Peace to All From a Loving God

Dewey (The Tolerant, Christian Heretic)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM

I know a fair few muslims, and none of them have anything to do with polygamy, and Im sure would find the idea bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:10 AM

Great Movie Quote applies here:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Elmer Gantry

They liked it so much they used it in Corinthians Chapter 13, verse 11

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:10 AM

ROFLMAO, robo!

Dewey, a reasonable post, thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Daithi
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM

Forgive the intrusion - as I'm neither American nor Christian - but from what little I know about the US constitution and your Founding Fathers (not to mention yiour bank notes)it seems to me that there is a distinctly Masonic flavour to the way in which God is referred to by some of your early movers and shakers.(no pun intended)

I'm not referring here to urban myths and conspiracy theories about freemasonry - just the fact that it teaches tolerance of all religions ("under God") respect and compassion for one's fellows and a basic moral approach to life. Seems to me your nation was founded on Masonic ideals, not specifically christian ones. Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

Yes...there is language there that may indeed reflect some of the founders beliefs...especially in your know what to look for...there were certainly Masons, as well as Deiests and 'regular' Christians among the Founders, but to their credit, they managed to craft documents which did not overtly 'promote' any particular creed or way of life. Those very same documents, however, being non-specific, have been read by many as supporting THEIR position.

The point I find in the Constitution is that there should be freedom to practice whatever religion you choose, but no obligation to choose any! This is the point so many ardent Christians have trouble with. "We are in the majority, we must be right"....With demographics changing daily, they might NOT be the majority forever...then what?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Daithi
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

I agree Bill. The problem is mainly with religions which insist that they have a monopoly on the truth...(avoids trying to work out a definition of Truth - not enough hours in the day!). Many of the fundamentalist versions of Christianity - including the evangelical and proselytising sects - cannot admit this. In the UK we have an established church which, to be politically correct and liberal, wants dialogue with other faiths (of which there are now many in an increasingly multi-cultural Britain) but also can't stomach sitting down with some who it disagrees with. It's Karl Popper's "Paradox of Democracy".
D

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:17 PM

What I don't understand is why so many followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are uptight and fretful about things outside their religion. I am a Unitarian and a Pagan and am entirely comfortable about my faith and practice and an genuinely happy when other express thay have a chosen path (or in the case of non-believers - have that).

I only get bothered when someone expresses hatred about my faith or if they belittle it. I will defend my faith at that point, and will take measures to fight for my and other people's rights to practice those faiths in this country.

I've been a witness in 7 child custody hearings in Florida and Tennessee. Each case revolved around a father who wanted to take the kids completely away from their mother simply because she was a Witch/Pagan. Luckily, the courts in each case eventually held up the mother's rights to practice a religion that was not harmful to herself or her children. But in several of the cases this happened AFTER the kids were forcably removed from the mother's care by law enforcement agents.

That is why I fight against the religious "right" whichever faith they may claim to be. Their intollerance of other's faiths not only hurts good people, it pushes the human evolution back to the level of the Crusades.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:32 PM

Guest Blackcatter:

I think you have brought up an important point. Those of us who feel there is no 'one way' have more in common, though of different original backgrounds, then those who grow up steeped in inerrancy, whatever their faiths.

Maybe that's why God has arranged that there are so many faiths. So we can figure out for ourselves that no one path is the only path.

And getting back to the Founding Fathers (and their wives) that is why in the Declaraion of Independence the invocation is to "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God..." which belie the evangelical rightists of our current era.

The Founding Fathers were creatures of The Enlightenment, and were a well read, well briefed group of very bright folk. They were not eager to return to the dark ages of religious orthodoxy.

No rule by mullahs!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM

The problem will come, not when America stops being a Christian nation, but when Chuck Hemlick stops being able to practice his particular version of Christianity--

I don't agree with him on much of anything--which is probably as it should be, but I respect his life, which has combine family, music, and a real life committment to religious values, as he experiences them--

When Chuck says that America is moving away from Christian Values, he is telling us that he feels that there is less place in America for the life he, his family, and friends, have been invested in--and that he sees a future in which there may be no place for it at all--

A lot of people feel like this--that their world, their, lives, and their faith, are slipping away--and, to a great degree, they are right--

And, fairly logically, they are angry at the people who are promote and support the changes that are squeezing them out--For Chuck, that includes the pinkos and liberals here--

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:03 PM

A lot of people feel like this--that their world, their, lives, and their faith, are slipping away--and, to a great degree, they are right--

And, fairly logically, they are angry at the people who are promote and support the changes that are squeezing them out--For Chuck, that includes the pinkos and liberals here--

That's an interesting dilemma there, M.Ted. According to that way of looking at things, it would seem that for people like Chuck, in order for him to feel secure in being who he is, other people can't be who they are.

I had a similar dilemma with my mother in the last decade or two of her life. She had become an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, and according to her way of thinking, hers was the true way and all other ways were evil and products of the devil. It was quite a balancing act to try to uphold the validity of my own beliefs and experiences (which in my mother's eyes were "of the devil"), while at the same time trying to avoid invalidating my mother's beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM

It is somewhat instructive and interesting that the premise of the thread title has been so easily accepted as a valid point for argument/discussion. It's much like saying that the flesh from three-legged chickens taste better breaded and then baked--and then another person argues that no, it tastes better marinated then fried. Folks, there ain't no three-legged chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:49 PM

I think many of us are ignoring the title as nothing more than a place holder. Sort of like Christianity was a place holder for the past 2000 years until humans get a clue. Just joking, of course.