BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News

Subject: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:21 PM

Christian Science Monitor and BBC both are reporting today that Muslim families are still showing up at the cemetery which surrounds the Imam Ali Shrine to bury their dead as US bombs rain down from above, and in spite of intensified ground fighting all around the cemetery and mosque.

According to Reuters "US military aircraft launched several strikes on suspected Shi'ite militant positions". Which is the latest US military speak for bombing civilians. That sounds much better than saying they are targeting the civilian neighborhoods for bombing to flush out their enemy. Al Jazeera was reporting this morning that the outer wall of the mosque had been damaged by the US bombings, though US military officials would only say the bombing and shelling "was not aimed at the shrine or other holy sites."

Sure, it's all just meant to give the remaining 1000+ unarmed members of the Mahdi Army still inside the mosque a bit of a fright.

Although the US military conveniently doesn't count Iraqi civilian deaths, estimates by news organizations with reporters on the ground say the civilian casualties as a result of this latest assault on Najaf is at least in the hundreds.

The Beeb also reports that the US forces today surrounded the entire mosque and grounds with snipers and tanks within 250 yards/229 meters of the mosque itself.

There is only one place the gravediggers won't go apparently, and that is the Old Cemetery, scene of some of the heaviest fighting in the 13-day standoff between Shiite militants and American forces that continued throughout Monday with fierce battles and explosions in the heart of the holy Shia city.

Grieving families from all over Iraq, as well as from Iran, Pakistan, India, and much of the Middle East, still drive the roads to Najaf to bury their relatives here.

The Old City neighborhood is the scene of the most intense fighting, with the Muslim militas firing on US troops with mortars, the US responding with artillery and aerial bombing, gunfire heard all over in the streets, and black smoke from many locations rose and hung like a pall above the neighborhood as the sun set, and fires believed to be from the US bombing, are now lighting up the night sky over Najaf.

Today's offensive by the US has dimmed hopes of a peaceful settlement, and calls by Iraq's neighbours and other Islamic countries for international intervention to end the fighting in Najaf is being ignored.

From the CS Monitor:

"Even in the fiercest fighting of the past two weeks, Iraqi Shiites continue to bring their dead to Najaf in the hopes of placing their departed relatives as close to the Shrine of Imam Ali as possible.

The cemeteries of Najaf are the largest in the world - the Old Cemetery alone is estimated to be 35 square kilometers, and growing. It's a massive industry for the city, and a stable source of income for hundreds of gravediggers, who once worked the hallowed ground of the Old Cemetery, which has recently become a deadly battleground where US soldiers and militiamen loyal to Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr have engaged in hand-to-hand combat...

It's hard to tell now, but residents say that Najaf once was a lovely city of tourist hotels, bustling markets, and aquamarine-tile mosques. The holiest site in the Shiite faith is here, the Shrine of Imam Ali, cousin of the prophet Muhammad, which until recently drew millions of tourists each year."

Some news organizations are also now reporting (within the past several hours) that US aerial bombing of Baghdad may have begun again, in the area known as Sadr City, although the US military command has not confirmed the cause of the explosion there.

Despite a resumption of crude exports from southern Iraq, world oil prices rose again in London as hopes dimmed of a resolution in Najaf, opening at 43.85 dollars a barrel of Brent North Sea crude, up 33 cents.

As US military officials said it could take up to 10 years to crush the insurgency, one Turk and five Iraqis were killed in a string of deadly roadside attacks, US military and police sources said.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

Whew. Well said, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:03 PM

Thanks Guest m. It should also be noted that while world oil prices rose today, they declined slightly in New York.

According to the survey of news stories online at Google News at noon EST, no US news organizations were carrying the reports of US bombing causing damage to the mosque.

Also, there were no US news organizations reporting what was being reported by their international counterparts, that the US might have resumed bombing of Shia civilians in Baghdad.

Long live Google News.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:17 PM

It really easn't too hard to find information from the mainstream media. This from the New York Times:

NAJAF, Iraq (AP) -- U.S. infantrymen engaged in fierce battles with cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's militants Monday and U.S. tanks moved closer to the revered Imam Ali Shrine as the American military stepped up pressure on the insurgents to leave the holy site and end their uprising.

Late Monday, U.S. warplanes bombed the area of the Old City, and fires lit up the night sky, witnesses said. Ahmed al-Shaibany, an aide to al-Sadr, said shrapnel from the attack hit the shrine's golden dome, one of its minarets and the compound's outer wall.

This from the Washington Post:

NAJAF, Iraq -- U.S. tanks and snipers took up positions near the revered Imam Ali Shrine and engaged in fierce battles with militants Monday as the U.S. military stepped up pressure on the insurgents to leave the holy site and end their uprising.

Late Monday night, U.S. warplanes bombed the area of the Old City, and shrapnel from the attack hit the shrine's golden dome, one of its minarets and the compound's outer wall, said Ahmed al-Shaibany, an aide to militant cleric Moqtada Sadr, who is leading the uprising. A fire near the area lit up the night sky.

The U.S. military had no immediate comment, and there was no independent confirmation of damage to the shrine.

This from CNN.com:

Sheikh Ahmed al-Sheibani, an adviser to al-Sadr, said that one blast hit a wall around the shrine about midnight, inflicting several casualties. Al-Sheibani could not provide specific figures of those killed or wounded.

There was no immediate comment from the U.S. military on those reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:20 PM

OK---I am not that religious in my beliefs.    Seems to me that our physical well being might be better protected than the somewhat nebulous hereafter.   

That said---I do not agree with the Iraq war. I do, however, want to save the lives of our soldiers "conned" into this quagmire==which it is.

Should we care about the civilian casualties---sure--as much as we care about Rwanda and all the other places that have horrible attrocities going on.   But==-=the big DO WE. No self interest or oil to benefit our big corporations and SUV guzzlers.

Now to the Mosque. Tell me---how many churches and synagogues have been destroyed in previous conflicts.    Why is Real Estate ( and that is all that this is) so important?.    Sadr knows it---hides there---PR woud give us a black eye if we destroyed these bricks and mortar.    I fail to understand why.    A building--not a human entity---bricks, mortar and whatever else.


OK--Bill---lighten up. Right!!!

Muhamed Ali is a champ and has not mosque that I know of. I shall worship the upper cut and hope that Sadr can do the same while watching the bricks and mortar crumble===as should all such artifacts that---=as Shakespeare said in a different context---signify

NOTHING.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:21 PM

It is true. If all you want is the comfort of US spin, you only have to go to the Holy Triumverate of US print news sources, the NY Times, the Washington Post, and the LA Times.

If you really, truly, deeply don't know what the rest of the world has to say about the world's events of the day, please, please, please stay away from Google News. It will only make you profoundly uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:24 PM

Another no name guest---and, pray tell, what speak you of?   On topic---who could possibly know/

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:01 PM

In answer to your excellent question Bill, I care as much about the wellbeing of the Iraqi civilians I've never met, as I do about the US soldiers I've never met.

How do you suppose you'd feel if Muslims had invaded the US, and were holed up at Arlington National Cemetery? Would you want our troops to fire upon say, the Kennedy gravesite? Or if they were focusing on "Shia militants", to take out the Washington monument because hey, it's only real estate? Sure, we can do that.

But you see Bill, what is "just real estate" to you, isn't just real estate to most people in the world. Which is why most around the world that hears Americans talk like you are, hates us.

So, if it isn't just about real estate, why do we care? We aren't a Muslim nation. Churches have been destroyed in Europe during war time too. Those sorts of sentiments are another reason why most the world hates us. It wasn't ever American churches being bombed. Well except for the black Baptist churches and the Jewish synagogues, and Muslim mosques, and Buddhist temples being bombed by good ole red blooded Anglo Americans out to protect our national heritage from..."those people".

So what exactly IS the Imam Ali mosque all about anyway, and why are nations around the world pleading with the US, the UN, the Arab League and anyone else who will listen right now, to intervene to stop the American assault on it?

Well, why not ask the American journalist just released by the Iraqi insurgents at the behest of Sadr himself? What on earth is he doing in Iraq? A damn documentary film on the plundering and destruction of Iraq's and the world's cultural treasures as a result of Our Holy Invasion and Occupation. He went straight back to work after getting the OK from an American doctor.

Why would an American documentary filmmaker care about the looting and destruction of Iraq's cultural treasures?

"If any of the holiest Shiite shrines at Karbala,
Najaf or Kadhumain are hit, we can only expect a very
angry reaction from Muslims everywhere," said Zainab
Bahrani, who was born in Iraq and teaches Islamic art
at Columbia University. "It would be like bombing St.
Peter's in Rome."

Because some of those villages most Americans, including our troops, consider as god forsaken, have, archaeologically speaking, already revealed themselves to be the world's earliest known villages and cities. It is in Iraq that we have found the earliest examples of writing.

The country is also one of the prime centers of Islamic art and culture. It is home to some of the earliest surviving examples of Islamic architecture — the Great Mosque at Samarra and the desert palace of Ukhaidar. Now, we damaged a few of 'em back in '91, like the ziggurat of Ur, which flourished in the third millennium B.C. and
is identified in the Bible as the birthplace of Abraham. But (((shrug))) so what? It was only real estate.

And who the hell are Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar, and Alexander the
Great anyway? Never heard of 'em. Ishtar's Gate, the Tower of Babel, Ninevah, who cares? Fuck the Arabian Nights and the horses they stole to ride in on. What does it matter if we blow somebody's granny in the grave sky high--I want OUR boys safe.

I mean, what the hell. They're only Iraqis, and as expendable as Rwandans. And it is, after all, only real estate. It's OUR boys, OUR Bradley fighting vehicles, OUR urban combat capabilities that are on the line here.

Right BillH?

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:39 PM

I think you have misinterpreted my comments.   We are in a war---in my opinion--that we should not be in.   We did not come to the aid of other oppressed peoples (Sudan, Rwanda,etc;) because it did not serve our financial and/or oil interests. That, to me is the great immorality and our great hypocrisy. We have also rid ourselves of all the goodwill the world showed us after 9/11 by the administration's (note I do not say "our") arrogance.

As to the "real estate" comments I made---perhaps I did not make myself clear. My point in all that was and is that if everyone would put more stock in human life rather than parochial beliefs and bricks and mortar (who says we don't pray to idols) the world would be a better and safer place.

Your Arlington analogy is not really that good---I think you would have to say---"...if our leaders holed up there in an attack on us". And--know what--I bet dollars to donuts that the enemy would bomb the place---they have already proved that on 9/11 (which was not Iraq--by the way).

I am quite aware of the early culture and history and antiquity---matter of fact as a kid I read a wonderful book called The Great Road--a history from UR to the then present time (which was when I was just a wee one as they say).   

So--I guess the question that really needs to be answered is: How many people have to die to save religious and oil interests?

And, since you mention ancient history--what can we say about the destruction of The Temple in days of yore in Jerusalem? What can we say years later by the burning of Synagogues. I guess it comes down to the old cliche about who's ox is being gored. That is the sad part--human life is a hell of a lot more important than "bricks and mortar". THe four little girls in Birmingham were worth more than the whole building---

People of ill will do the damage--be they white,yellow, black or green. My concern is for the safety of human life on both sides---and hoping that the conscience of those that have mistakenly put our people in harm's way will get their come uppance shortly.

Again--I still wonder why I reply to someone who just signs "GUEST".

Oh well---back to worshipping the other Ali---the one with the upper cut and class.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:25 PM

what can we say about the destruction of The Temple in days of yore in Jerusalem?

One thing we can say is that nearly 2,000 years down the line, and it is still a major factor in a situation that is getting people killed today.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

McG/Harlow: I suppose that could be a whole new discussion---my recollection of this is that no one is thinking of attacking the Dome of The Rock. People merely go to the walls of the old Temple Mount to pray. Which, by the way, was denied under Jordanian (Arab) occcupation---now all sites are open to all.

But, I digress. We are back to Real Estate and people's strange perceptions of that and human life.

Remember the old phrase---"bury the hatchet"? I bet some jackass would dig it up and say---hey, this is for my ancestors that got killed years ago---whack!!!.   Peace will come when we not only bury it but make sure that is is burned, chopped up, and totally gone.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:51 PM

Is that a good ending for the thread or what????

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:57 PM

There is no good ending coming, BillH. The US continued it's nightly bombing campaign on civilian neighborhoods in Najaf tonight for the 6th night in a row. The number of Sadr loyalists continues to grow, despite the efforts of al Sistani to calm the situation.

From today's report by the CS Monitor:

"Even as the standoff between the Mahdi Army and US forces appears to be subsiding - with Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani scheduled to begin talks Friday in Najaf for a Mahdi withdrawal from the shrine - Mr. Sadr's organization, already battered from weeks of battling with the US, continues to be resilient.

Almost unknown to the world before its violent uprising last April against US forces in Baghdad and elsewhere, the Mahdi Army is emerging as a well-organized parallel government that aspires to govern Shiites according to its religious principles. Its models are the violent militant organizations (designated as terrorists groups by the US) with social programs like Lebanon's Hizbullah and Hamas in Gaza, and its goals are at least as ambitious.

In most cities where the Mahdi Army is present, there are Mahdi Army religious courts for resolving disputes and punishing criminals; Mahdi Army police patrols; and even Mahdi Army town councils for planning social programs.

All of these services pay political dividends, earning the admiration of many Shiites who don't necessarily support Sadr or his militia. And while Sadr's militia has suffered major losses in Najaf, by standing up to the US and Iraqi forces for weeks, Sadr has also raised his stature in the eyes of many Iraqis."

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

It was only the thread I was referring to---dear unnamed Guest. And my thoughts and others on the "real estate" vs "humanity" and life.

But, since the thread has digressed so I will reply to something that is on another one:   I would add that not one person knows who a Guest is---other than that person. Sort of like anonymous poison pen letters. You have an opinion---voice it and be proud of it and give your name.

I really must learn not to respond to the "masked riders" amongst us. Back to your caves and draw the pictures on the wall.

I kind of like my name and opinion:

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:11 PM

Yes, there are many here who are overly attached to the perceived sanctity of their names and opinions, Bill Hahn, and you can join them in any number of guest bashing threads as we speak.

But where would folk music be without anon?

Good day to you, sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:25 PM

So are the writers of ransom notes and poison pen letters

Mr X

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:09 PM

Now that statement tells us all much more about Bill Hahn's worldview than it does about mine. Guilt by association as a smear tactic. I know the Bush campaign is looking to replace some of their volunteers after this week's Swift Boat fall out.

I suppose you are used to inhabiting the territory where people regularly attack others based upon the label/stereotype they perceive them to be wearing, since you are so very good at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:49 PM

Not really---just those who post notes and/or other material anonymously.

I don't know you stretched that into BUsh/Swift Boats/etc;---you have a very good reach that leads to great incomprehension.

Though the thought occurs to me that you are probably the famous literary figure---E. GUEST. I stand in awe.

Then again you might be just a house guest---and you know the old cliche that hangs on walls about house guests and fish I am sure.   

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:53 PM

I'm bored trading insults with you BillH, so you can stop trolling by refreshing this thread every day now, to try and bait me to do it some more.

Subject: RE: BS: Today's Silent Night/Six O'Clock News
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:59 PM

Agreed---though I did notice you did not respond to a legit. query---and the comma goes elswhere---E. Guest would have known that---so you must be the house guest/fish example.

Your erstwhile friend,

BH