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BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?

Rabbi-Sol 24 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 24 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM
GUEST 24 Aug 04 - 12:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 04 - 01:00 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM
Once Famous 24 Aug 04 - 02:48 PM
mooman 24 Aug 04 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Aug 04 - 03:00 PM
alanabit 24 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM
Once Famous 24 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM
Fishpicker 24 Aug 04 - 03:32 PM
beardedbruce 24 Aug 04 - 03:40 PM
Bill D 24 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM
Once Famous 24 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM
Bill D 24 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM
Once Famous 24 Aug 04 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM
Once Famous 24 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM
artbrooks 24 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM
Wesley S 24 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM
Wesley S 24 Aug 04 - 05:48 PM
beardedbruce 24 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM
Peace 24 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM
Bobert 24 Aug 04 - 11:10 PM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 04 - 11:54 AM
Chris Green 25 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM
Raedwulf 25 Aug 04 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,x 25 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM
GUEST 25 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM
M.Ted 25 Aug 04 - 02:14 PM
Rabbi-Sol 25 Aug 04 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM
mg 25 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM
Wilfried Schaum 25 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM
Wolfgang 25 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM

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Subject: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

If and when Bin Laden is captured, stands trial in an American court, and is sentenced to death, who should be the one to give him the fatal injection ? Should the deed be left to a state appointed executioner or should a close relative of one of the 9/11 victims be allowed to carry out the task ? I know that there would be many volunteers. I hear that former mayor Gulliani, during whose administration the attacks took place, voiced the desire to be the one that pushes the button. What are your opinions in this matter ?
SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM

What a marvelously needless question. One does not better the World by murdering a murderer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

I think it is a real shame that people can alleviate their loss by murdering another human being.
And no, if one of my relatives had been a victim I would still have this point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:48 PM

Sorry LH crossposted with you there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM

When Bin Laden turns himself in on November 1 2004 after "The attack that will make Halloween scary." His death will be faked and he will go back to his job as a CIA Middle East adviser. After 2007 when Bush is officially designated as "He who has descended to Earth to save us" Bin Laden will then "come back to life" to play the role of the AntiChrist. This will be a real source of consternation to the real antichrist, Rupert Murdoch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:00 PM

Excellent analyis, Jack. :-) I am glad to see that this thread is getting the respect it deserves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

I doubt whether Bin Laden, if captured, would ever live to reach an American court room. He would probably die of "natural causes" while in American captivity much like Abbu Abbas, the terrorist who hijacked the Achille Lauro and murdered wheelchair bound Leon Klinghoffer did. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:48 PM

Bin-Laden should be executed and made an example of.

If you don't think so, why don't we support him on your tax dollars and silly pity. He wouldn't give any of you the time of day.

Former Mayor Gulliani would be an excelent choice, Rabbi Sol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: mooman
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:49 PM

Nobody. But he should spend the rest of his life in gaol.

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:00 PM

Sometimes people who are executed are made martyrs of, Martin.

And scuffling over the right to kill someone seems despicable to me.

Hell, do it right, put it up for bids. Give the runner-up the right to laugh delightedly in Osama's face as the winner pushes the button. And all bidders will be allowed to cheer and throw small objects as he's scourged through the streets. See if that demolishes Al Qaeda.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM

Bin Laden in an American prison would be a nightmare for the security forces and the justice system. An executed Bin Laden would bring reprisals on all those involved in his death - and probably some innocents besides. The safest place for Americans (and all the rest of us for that matter) for Bin Laden to stay, is either where he is now - or an Arab prison, in which case the inevitable reprisals would be taken against someone else. The longer the myth of Bin Laden lives on, the safer George Bush's presidency will be. The fanatics need him as a hero and the Republicans need a healthy devil. History will eventually strip him of his mystique, but for the time being, it is in the interests of many people to keep it going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

Only a matter of time before someone so left-winged thru Bush into this. It's in the interests of many people to see him dead and Al-queda without it's leader. I say go get him and let him face trial against the American people.

I think he should stay at your house, alanabit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Fishpicker
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:32 PM

"What a marvelously needless question. One does not better the World by murdering a murderer."


I know! lets give him a green card, drivers liscense, social security benefits, welfare and an honorary sociology degree from berkely.

                                  FP


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:40 PM

You forgot the tenured faculty position...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM

"Who should have jurisdiction over a captured Bin Laden?" is a matter for serious debate..so is the death penalty.

The question as asked is pretty tasteless and inviting of other cute answers. I see it worked.

Who, me? No sense of humor?...naawwwwwwww


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM

I hardly think Rabbi-Sol wanted it to be a tasteless question promoting cute answers.

I see it as a serious question, that obviously some just can't deal with because of some extreme liberal idealism that we can't fry this scum bag because it is either too barbaric or not the Christian thing to do.

Cut his balls off and stick them in his mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM

If the decision of those who have jurisdiction is that he should be executed, I have no problem with that....if it is America, then it is simple, the state does it, as always. Asking for 'volunteers' or holding a lottery among victims families is a tacky idea. You don't make him deader by adding in something (as MG so cheerfully suggests) that will just cause more problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM

I think speculating about Osama Bin Laden is usless. I hope that after November 2, the US has a President with a real incentive to catch him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:55 PM

So do I. Either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM

You don't believe even slightly in karma, do you, Martin? :-)

I don't normally believe in executing anyone, but it depends on the situation. When there is an extremely volatile emergency...such as looting and violence in the streets during wartime, let's say...or people shooting at other people...then I would sanction security forces to shoot to kill in order to restore order. That's not quite the same thing as execution, though.

If people in the world could get around to putting as much vital energy into doing something positive for themselves and others as they customarily put into fear and hatred of others...there would probably have been no Osama Bin Laden for you to get upset about in the first place...and no Al Queda either. Osama would be doing something else altogether, rather than seeing himself on a holy crusade to fight "the Great Satan" (as he sees America).

Remember, Osama thinks just the way you do. Only, he's on the opposite side of the fence, and he's way better at organizing people, evidently. Seems to be, anyway.

Gosh! I hope I am not underestimating your abilities on that score, Martin. :-) For all I know, you could soon be on the Arab World's list of "10 most dangerous terrorists in the World", and there would be Arabs sitting around having the kind of sadistic fantasies about you that you are having about Osama. To no useful effect, of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

Some people are actually afraid of goats, Little Hawk.

I mean, there is real fear, there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM

One of the reasons I asked this question was that the man who hung Adolph Eichmann in Israel, recently toured the USA on the lecture circuit. He described why it was so particularly important that Eichmann be tried in a Jewish court of law in a Jewish homeland. It showed the world that the very people whose demise he sought to bring about with his "final solution" not only endured and survived, but ended up being the ones who brought about his demise. Israel was very careful not to have any prison guards of European (Ashkenazic) ancestry involved with Eichmann at all. Only those of Middle Eastern (Sephardic) ancestry were involved in his incarceration and ultimate execution. Yet, this man of Sephardic descent felt that he was avenging the blood of his fellow six million Jewish brothers when he pulled the hangman's rope ending this murderer's life. He said this experience made him a much more religious person and better human being. He has since retired from the prison system and spends his time in Bible study all day. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

Goats? You mean...someone's afraid of Esmeralda? Come on-n-n...!

Chimps, though...yeah, I can see that some people would be quite fearful of chimps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM

Who Should Execute Bin Laden?

There are a number of steps to be taken before this question can be answered. (1) Where is he caught (assuming he ever is)? (2) Who catches him? (3) Does the US request extradition, if applicable? (4) If this request is made, is it granted? (5) Is he turned over to New York for trial for multiple murders or tried under US anti-terrorism laws? (6) Is he convicted? (7) Is he sentenced to death?

The rules of law must be followed. This, at least, is a point that is undebateable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM

If I had ever hanged someone, I figure I might spend my days in Bible study too...or something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM

My original question assumed that all the legal steps and requirements were followed to the letter of the law. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM

Hmmmmm - Does he get to have a trial first ? Or do we plan to just get rid of that little technicality ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:48 PM

And the letter of one law says "Thou shalt not kill"


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM

WesleyS:

Try reading it in the original- the word is "murder" ie, unjustified killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM

I don't really care who. S'long as it gets done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:10 PM

Bin Laden is allready dead, however, on October 4th, just as yers truely ahs predicted, bin Laden will be killed in a fire fight on the Pakinstani border by US troops. His body, needless to say, will need no autopsy since he will have several rounds of ammunition that have entered and exited his body...Keeping the blood fresh is a nightmare for the Bush folks, plus the worry that someone is gonna turn them in fir this little campaign stunt...

Bush: "Well, I told Karl it was a dumb idea."

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:54 AM

And who makes "the law" (civil law)? People do. Are people fallible or infallible? What then about "the law"? I look beyond the civil law to my own conscience and to a higher teaching to settle questions of this nature. Civil law is a temporary adjustment to changing conditions and varies greatly from one place to another, according to people's cultural prejudices and perceptions. It is often behind the times, and usually inflexible and limited in its ability to deal with human situations.

The only thing you can definitely say about civil law is...it's better than having no laws in effect at all, given the present state of human evolution! :-) But people should not bow down to it like it was some sort of God on a golden throne. It's an imperfect attempt to deal with an immensely complicated situation called "life".


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM

Good news - Osama bin Laden has been given the death penalty. Bad news - David Beckham's taking it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:28 PM

In the words of the cook, "First, catch your hare..." No jugged hare without the hare, gen'lemen!

I would cheerfully press the button/inject the syringe/pull the lever. Not because Osama is Osama, but because I believe the death penalty can be justified (even I, a steenkin' heathen, know the difference 'twixt "Thou shalt not kill" & "Thou shalt not murder"), and should be applied, provided the crime is appropriate & the guilt is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. If there is the slightest doubt, life-means-life imprisonment, because then we can correct a mistake (if the doubt turns out to be a truth).

But is there anyone here who believes that Osama was anything other than the Guiding Light behind 9/11? His guilt, surely, is not in doubt? And I can't help feeling that, dead or incarcerated, he's a martyr & a liability either way. On the other hand, executing him saves the risk of him escaping! (I hasten to add, I'm being just a little tongue-in-cheek with the last remark!)

Sol - If you really wanted the question to be taken seriously (well, frankly, don't post it on Mudcat! ;) ), you would better have not suggested that the execution might be 'given' to a volunteer, leave alone to a relative of a 9/11 victim. For many people, judicial killing is justifiable, if unpleasant. Slaking a thirst for vengeance is hard to differentiate from murder.

Were I the Man In Charge, I would insist on carrying out sentence myself. Not from desire, or vengeance, or a sense of satisfaction; but both because I believe I could cope with the consequences (personal & emotional), & so that no-one else should have to! Never ask someone to do that which you would not...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST,x
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, maybe someone could enlighten me and then you can continue as though I never asked...

How many states have the death penalty?

How does it work, does it mean that if you commited the crime in that state you could be given the DP?

Or is it the state that you are arrested in that decides your fate?

I don't agree with it myself, but why don't they sort of do it like a firing squad...where ten people all press the switch, but nobody knows who's switch was the 'live' one? That way nobody can revel in the glory of being the executioner or have pangs of conscience over it, should they ever have a change of heart over the DP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM

The first fucker with a decent sight picture and clear shot at him......


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:14 PM

This isn't a very important question--partly because we haven't caught him, )and probably won't catch him, because Bin Laden is apparently planning for to his own martyrdom in battle)--but mostly because it is one of those stupid PR/Photo op deals that look great on the news, but have little or no practical value--

Practically, whether Bin Laden is captured or killed, doesn't much matter--his elimination can be bloody and painful, or he is simply can be confined to a cream puff house where little fairies wait on him--getting him out of the way is all that really matters--

Or, rather, what really matters is the fact that, with all the money, energy and lives that have been expended, he still isn't out of the way--


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:27 PM

To GUEST x: It is the State in which the crime is committed that determines what the punishment is, because that State is also the venue for the trial. If the pepetrator is arrested in another state, the state in which the crime was committed files extradition papers with the arresting state, and if the accused does not waive extradition, a hearing is held before a judge in order to obtain an order for extradition. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM

Moral or not, executing Bin Laden may not be smart. It won't demolish Al Qaeda, and may well make him a martyr, especially if the surviving Al Q members hae anything to say about it.

The ideal would be for him to be executed by Al Qaeda itself, for betraying the cause. That'd destroy his credibility. Maybe. I'll get the CIA right on it.

clint

"First, catch your hare..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: mg
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM

In any execution case by injection, which seems the most humane way of doing it, it should be by no one less than a doctor, preferably an anesthesiologist, and I would say retired and fairly old. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM

Bloody nonsense. Do it the military way.
If he is a terrorist, decapitate him by the good old machine invented by Dr. Guillotin.
If he is a freedom fighter, drum him out with the death roll to the ramparts of any fortification (Pentagon?) and have him shot by a platoon, the coup de grace applied by an officer ( I should'nt like to be this man: I'm no hangman).
But this depends on twelve men brave and true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who Should Execute Bin Laden ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM

executing Bin Laden may not be smart. It ... may well make him a martyr

Could be, Clint, but I'm not sure for one reason:

Of all the Nazi leaders who have died, committed suicide, been sentenced to death, or sentenced to less than death, or even acquitted at Nuremberg, there is one single man whose grave has become the focus of Neonazi pilgrimages and at whose birthday they try a show of strength (very few, I'm glad to say) in memory demonstrations. That is the only one who got a life sentence (and lived in jail well within his nineties): Rudolf Hess. "Free Rudolf Hess" was for them a rally cry, making an impression on some especially after he was ninety.

Well, that's just only a single example (I have no other) and the circumstances may have been special. But I always have that example in my mind, when I read the martyr argument. The over ninety old frail and weak wreck of a man who was held in solitary confinement for the last 20 years or so was better for Neonazi propaganda than a dead Hess could have been.

But what is better in terms of propaganda can neither be an argument for nor against capital punishment.

Wolfgang


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