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BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist
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Subject: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM I've changed my mind. I believe the real Antichrist is reality television. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:07 AM Maybe they are both appendages of the Antichrist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM Before reality TV there was actually Reality Radio. Really-- I just listened to an old episode (a lot like Cops). If we keep tracing the problem back in time it will surely be that the problem is Reality Itself. I am convinced it exists, but people don't seem to be clapping these days to keep it alive. And big bums keep coming and going, and people are looking for fiddlers and fiddles and now it's beautiful guitars. I just don't know where this will all lead. Air Guitar Olympics no doubt. I dunno, gods doing that, why would they. I know if Rick were still here, he could make sense out of it all! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM So, what is Wal-Mart's position on religion? Most stores have huge Bible departments, and I don't think they carry the "liberal" interpretations like the Revised Standard Version and the Good News Bible and the (Catholic) New American Bible. There does seem to be a religious element in the operation of the chain, something to do with the Divine Inspiration of Upper Management, with a belief that the battle against unions is the true Armageddon. I'm sure they have religious reasons for discriminating against women and fudging on overtime on employees' timecards. The seems to be a strong element of religious self-righteousness in their management philosophy - but it's religion gone wrong. The Catholic nuns I work for won't shop at Wal-Mart. I go there at times, but I feel really guilty about it. I wish I could find a store that offers both low prices and good business ethics. Yeah, maybe Wal-Mart IS the antiChrist... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM What is Wal-Mart? Obviously, a store but do they specialize in things for walls (switchs, paintings, hangers?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM As I have said many times here on the Mudcat, Wal-Mart is just a large department store that treats it's employees well. My son has worked for them for thirteen years and he makes a good salary, has good medical benefits, and rarely bitches about management. He ain't no dummy either. I'm sure there are exceptions based on individual personnel, but I certainly can report he is well satisfied with his employer. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM GUEST, please give proper credit to that great modern intellect whom you are quoting. Paris Hilton. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:16 PM But he ain't a union man, is he, Doug? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:28 PM Nope! And neither am I, Joe! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:28 PM Fuck the union. I'll take more merchandise for what I work hard for. Don't spend money at Wal-Mart. The ones who make bigger profit off of you are laughing at you when you leave their stores. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM Right, MG. WalMart charges less so they can make less profit. As if! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Frank Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:07 PM It could be that the AntiChrist is one of those proclaiming to be more Christian than others. :) Wallmart is the same as reality TV. It's about business and winner-take-all. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM Hey Doug - lucky he's a boy - if he was a girl, he'd be making less money. Of course, you probably agree with Walmart on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,amergin Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:12 PM Hmmmmm...I wonder what my good friend Mick would say about this... ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM guest, Frank you are so right about that. many posters here really know very little about business except that all big business is bad. How dated and narrow that thought process is. wal-Mart will take the slimmer margins and higher volume any day. And that means better prices for a lot of people. I think people such as the posters here who knock Wal-Mart are extremely narrow and not too smart. They really have no right to tell any one how to spend and where to spend the money they earn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM Neither WalMart nor television are the Antichrist. By definition, the Antichrist will appear benign but actually be the embodiment of evil. Both WalMart and television are way too apparently evil to qualify as the Antichrist. That rule also disqualifies anyone in politics or organized religion as well as the owners of record labels, movie studios, publishing houses and art galleries. The Antichrist is... You guessed it... None other than... Whoopi Goldberg And you thought I was gonna say William Shatner, didn't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM Too many people think Whoopi is evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:43 PM MG, The situation of WalMart is more complex than you suggest. They don't always save consumers money by accepting a slimmer profit margin. In many cases they simply pay less for their merchandise because of economies of scale and because it's often cheap to begin with. They force manufacturers to give them lower and lower prices, ultimately breaking their suppliers or forcing them to outsource jobs to Mexico and China. Then they pass those savings on to you. here is a very good and balanced article, pointing out the benefits but also the drawbacks of WalMart. Finally, MG, there are many philisophies of business. Just because you subscribe to one of them doesn't mean that people who subscribe to others "don't know anything about business." Many successful business owners would never dream of running a store like WalMart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Bill D Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:44 PM nawww...the anti-christ is really groups like AuntieChrist (I made a bet with myself I'd find something like this, and as usual, I won) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM Now now MG. Don't be silly. Otherwise we may have to point out the corollaries of the acceptance of economic warfare as legitimate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM Nope. I think women should be paid equally with men. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:17 PM Nerd, in case you were wondering, it's called capitalism. Leverage buying by Wal-Mart saves me money for name brand merchandise. No one is twisting any one's arm to sell to them. Their suppliers could say no, but they don't. The customers could say no, but record earnings and same store sales disprove that. Why don't they, Nerd? Could it be all of the demographic and competive information Wal-Mart furnishes it's suppliers? They get my business. The ones who can't market as well, don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:14 AM I've no problem with WalMart trading here in the UK as Asda. Second to price service is my main criterea and I will quote an example of the type of service Asda give. I went to the customer service desk with 2 queries. 1 - A broken clock radio for which I had no receipt and 2 - A double charge for a single item I had purchased the week before. Result. 1 - they changed the radio for a better model! 2. - remember I could never prove that I only had one of these items - I got a refund and an extra £5 for my inconvenience. I can't fault them of service or price! I have been in US WalMarts and they seem fine but I do not have enough experience of them to say either way. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:22 AM Our Mall Wart is 'crime alley'. Renta Ho?, need a Score? com on ova to Mall Wart after sundown! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:43 AM Joe-- Is there no Costco out there? Costco, though not perfect,-- (I think there is a recent lawsuit)--treats its employees far better than Walmart, in fact so much better that they have received some flak from stock analysts. (Walmart's stock has, however, been stagnant for about 5 years). At any rate, Costco treats particularly its low level employees-- (the majority of any business' workers)-- considerably better than Walmart--(see my 16 April 04 11:55 PM posting on the Walmart Sidesteps the Government thread, with specific figures taken from the Wall St. Journal this year.) Prices are also extremely reasonable--all that's required (besides annual membership, which I make up for in two trips) is that you have space to store in bulk since they sell in bulk. I stockpile all sorts of stuff--goal being to avoid emergency trips for staple items. Drug prices are very good---far better than CVS for instance. They also, amazingly enough, have good books at excellent prices. I feed my addiction all the time--I've picked up the McCullough John Adams book, one on Jefferson, two recent ones on John Paul Jones, the recent one on Washington (An Imperfect God), as well as a 3-volume photographic history of the Civil War ,and others---all hardback and usually half price or under (far better than Borders, for instance). I just ignore the Reagan hagiographies--no problem. It is in fact possible to give good prices and still not be a blight on the retail landscape. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: SINSULL Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:07 AM I have never set foot in a Wal-Mart. Walmart comes in; traffic and parking become a problem; little Mom'N Pops die. Less than desirable businesses - "Everything For A Dollar" but it's worth 10 cents - move in. And ultimately the neighborhood suffers. Then when Wal-Mart decides to close... DougR's son has had a good experience there. According to Walmart's ads, there are many like him. There are however far too many underpaid workers with no hope of improving themselves, too many young mothers forced to work odd hours for next to nothing or quit, too many law suits for unfair treatment of employees. I stay out of Denny's for similar reasons although their abyssmal food plays into my choice. And Cracker Barrel may soon be added to the list. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM MG, I do understand what you're saying. Capitalism has many good qualities and has helped this country advance. But remember that there are other ideologies than capitalism too, even other conservative ideologies, that can work along with capitalism to improve on its benefits to society. Two examples are compassion on the one hand, and patriotism on the other, neither of which is always served by the purest forms of capitalism. A pure capitalist doesn't care whether he helps more people than he harms, or whether he helps or hurts his country. Like communism, capitalism is an internationalist ideology (though capitalists have changed the terminology to "globalization" to avoid SOUNDING like communists). So a capitalist doesn't care where his suppliers come from, where they do business, or whose nationals they employ. By offering the lowest prices through squeezing his suppliers to pay less to their employees, and eventuallly move their jobs to Mexico, a pure capitalist can actually create consumers [the employees and former employees of his suppliers] who are so poor they NEED the lower prices to survive. It's a great deal for those of us who only ENJOY the lower prices, as long as we turn off our compassion for those who lost their jobs, and our patriotism in wanting to help our country maintain a well-paid work force. As to "no one forces the suppliers to do business with WalMart," obviously the bigger WalMart gets, the less choice the suppliers have, since a bigger and bigger market share can ONLY be reached through WalMart. WalMart is the largest retail business the world has ever known, and growing. Many people are concerned, economists among them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Alaska Mike Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:36 AM Well said Nerd. It is why I stay out of Wal-Marts. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM it's also why you spend more than I do on the same item. I don't really find that something to admire. Unfortunately compassion and business hardly ever mix well. the strong survive, the ones who can't do it as well come in second or third. As for those poor people who need the low prices, good for them. we have cheap places to eat, also. True, Nerd about the market share thing. But there is always someone who is going to be the biggest and number one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Greg F. Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:58 AM "Reality TV"[sic] - like "compassionate conservative"[sic]- is a simple contradiction in terms. My son has worked for them for thirteen years and he makes a good salary.. Now there's the real spirit that's made the U.S. great- I've got mine, screw everyone else. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:03 PM Spoken like a whiner Greg F. No one says you can't get yours also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM As for those poor people who need the low prices, good for them. No, it's bad for them. It's good for you, which is why you like it so much. A sad comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:29 PM No one survives. The "strong" just cause more pain and misery prior to their ultimate demise. The present economic system is based upon doing precisely that, and speeding up everyone's collective ultimate demise by so doing. It is the epitome of ignorance and fear-based motivation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:16 PM This is relevant to the current discussion: Social Darwinism If you are not familiar with Darwin's work, read from the beginning. If you are familiar with it, scroll down to the section with the heading The Misapplication of a Biological Theory. This makes a perfect match with the dominant religious belief of the large percentage of Americans: Calvinism. Calvinism came over with the Puritans and remains one of the dominant religious beliefs in this country. It stresses the absolute sovereignty of God's will, holding that only those whom God specifically elects are saved, that this election is irresistible, and that individuals can do nothing to effect this salvation (which is to say that "the elect" are above sin and need not worry about their entrance into heaven, no matter how they may behave or how they treat others). One can always tell who the elect are. God allows them to prosper in this life. The poor are obviously not among the elect and do not deserve anyone's consideration. In fact, welfare programs contradict God's will. For further examination of this belief—which is also the basis of "Manifest Destiny," that allowed the extermination of the indigenous peoples and the turning of their lands into shopping malls and parking lots—read this: Tiptoe through the TULIP. This supposedly Christian religious doctrine, incidentally, contradicts the specific words of Jesus in passages such as Matthew 25:35-40. Many Americans (particularly those who have accumulated their pile of toys, or anticipate successfully doing so) have accepted Social Darwinism and the supporting religious doctrine (even many who don't go to church) without even thinking about the implications, and it goes a long way toward explaining the philosophy behind many avid supporters of unrestrained capitalism. But then, there are many bleeding-heart liberals like me who think every life is of value. (whine, whine, whine) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM Social Darwinism is the gospel of the criminally insane, to whom no amount of anything is ever enough. One of Canada's greatest Socal Darwinists, Conrad Black, is presently being indicted for robbing the shareholders of the company he was formerly CEO of, of about $400 million! $60,000 of it went to pay for one of his wife's birthday parties. She is also a famous Social Darwinist, a right-wing political columnist (and a very smart one), who was a radical leftist in her college days. She also now believes that "only the strong shall survive", as does her husband. He will now have to survive legal action for his grand larceny of other people's money. The theory of "the strong" has no basis in actual morality, because it does indeed believe that the end justifies the means. Add to that the fact that the end being sought is essentially a completely pointless one and you will see the futility and criminality of the entire notion laid out in pretty blatant terms. Where is your life happier and safer? On an island where 50 people all have enough to eat or on an island where 2 people have 90% of the food, 5 heavily-armed bullies work for those two for 5% of the food that is left, and the other 43 people are starving or on the edge of starving? Where are you safer and happier? The Social Darwinist fondly imagines himself on the 2nd island, inside his mansion/fortress with his 5 guards on the watchtowers and the best beach cordoned off for his use alone. He imagines himself as one of the 2 rich ones in the scheme I described, which IS the present scheme functioning in the World today (in a general sense). He is not safe. He is in great peril. If he imagines he is happy under that circumstance, well, he has a peculiar notion of real happiness, in my opinion, and no notion at all of what life is actually about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:03 PM That is all complete and total crap. You guys bring in all of this nonsense because I can pay $5.76 for a bottle of Tide laundry detergent instead of $6.99 at Wal-Mart? I'll keep the extra buck twenty-three and buy a couple of candy bars with it. It's laughable that this thread has deteriorated to social darwinism. Life is not Philosophy 101 24 hours a day. Consider that for some, it's about just being thrifty and giving a shit how their hard earned income is spent. Call it Bang for the Buck 101. Politics isn't even part of the picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:31 PM Martin, life as a human being is philosophy, whether you like it or not. Without a cohesive philosphy, one is hardly human, subject to little more than urges and instincts. Then, it's back to the jungle--as we see all about us. Just because someone wears a power-suit and a red necktie and sits at the head of a multinational corporation's conference table doesn't mean that his mentality is not that of a killer ape. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:35 PM Who did WalMart bang so you could save a buck, MG? But seriously, let me remind you that YOU were the one who brought up both politics and social darwinism. You said "it's called capitalism" and "the strong survive." (The amusing thing about social darwinism, by the way, is the following fallacy. Darwinism states that the strong survive because they live long enough to breed and have the largest number of viable offspring. True Social darwinism SHOULD say that those who have the most surviving offspring are by definition the strongest. Those are, in our society, the poor and uneducated!) True, Nerd about the market share thing. But there is always someone who is going to be the biggest and number one. That's true, of course, MG. But economists are starting to make the argument that WalMart is an entirely new kind of phenomenon because it has such a large market share of such a big retail product area. It's literally never been seen before, so the old rules may not apply. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:45 PM and so the world changes, Nerd. No, don Firth I disagree. Everything does not need to be put under a microscope and analyzed and waxed philosophical. One takes a dump because he has to. One needs to get laid because he is horny. People who spend so much time analyzing, and waxing philosophical over such trivia as saving money at a store really don't do much living I believe. It's like my ex-wife. She spent so much time in the bathroom getting ready, instead of living the situation that she was getting ready for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:01 PM and so the world changes, Nerd That's what the dinosaurs would have thought if their brains weren't so small. The point is, some changes are bad and should be prevented. And it can be important to try to predict which ones they are so our culture doesn't end up in the crapper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:02 PM Despite the complaints about Wal Mart, the fact is that the vast majority of people choose lower prices over local merchants. Otherwise, Wal mart wouldn't be so successfull. Local merchants can't compete head on or they get killed. They can compete my offering niche products or services that you can't find in a box store. ON that level they compete very well. In a previous job I used to have Wal Mart as an account. They were definately the 800 lb gorilla. If you backordered a product, there were huge fines and you could lose the account. Good for the customer. Bad for the producer. They had placed a multi million dollar order will us and than cancelled 2 days before shipment. We had already made the product in their boxes so we wouldn't backorder. They could get away with that because they were Wal Mart and there are very few other customer with that much opportunity. We had to eat the order and hold it till they eventually ordered it over the next few months. Its just part of business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:03 PM That's right, Don, all of life IS philosophy...in action. It is a person's philosophy that determines his behaviour in every area of life. That's why some people are more dangerous than others. They live by a dangerous philosophy...such as "Only the strong shall survive." As I said before, no one survives. So it's really a question of "What sort of person would I like to be between now and the die I die?" That is a question that seems to be too big for the social darwinist...or is it that he answers it in this fashion: "I am the World, to all intents and purposes. It doesn't matter what happens after I'm gone, because only I matter. Well, maybe my kids matter too... Okay, then, my kids and I matter, so what I am going to do is be clever and competitive and ruthless and fight my way to the top of the social pecking order. To do this I will hire people less powerful than myself to do the dirty work, and I will pay them the absolute minimum that I can get away with paying them. I will ensure that there are always a large number of unemployed people around, so that I can keep wages down as low as possible. I will ensure that there are always places in the World where people are wretchedly poor, so that I will always have a very cheap supply of labour...almost as good as having slaves...call them "wage-slaves". I will ensure that longstanding inequities in the World are not done away with, and that longstanding disagreements are not solved, so that there will always be war...because war is the absolute BEST way for me and my club to make the most money. After I'm dead I won't exist anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens after I'm dead, as long as my family does okay. If my family remains 5,000 times richer than the average family, then their position is assured. No...make that 10,000 times richer than the average family. That sounds safer to me. I must ensure that freedom is never achieved for most people, that the truth is never told to most people, that most people remain ignorant and addicted and powerless, that security is never provided for most people, and that equality and justice are never found for most people. In this way the game can go on and on and on. I will achieve immortality by passing control of this system on to my children. I will have won the game. I hate losers! I only love winners, and I intend to be the biggest winner of all." And there you have the philosophy of Karl Rove in a nutshell. Karl Rove is G.W.Bush's campaign manager. There you have the philosophy for the decline and fall of civilization as we know it, and for the destruction of a good future for all of our children, including the children of the rich. There you have damnation and desolation, served up on a platter of dollar bills. All for nothing. Never in the field of human tragedy has so much been stolen from so many by so few. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:52 PM Don, going back to Calvinism... wouldn't it depend on how you define "prosperity"? To one person, it may be having everything they want; to another, it may mean simply having everything they need. Big difference. Here in Nashville, most of the locally-owned shops are specialty groceries, used bookstores, and upscale boutique shops. The groceries and bookstores I can handle, and do shop there when I need something they have. But upscale clothiers? Forget it. I have a hard time paying $60+ for a pair of jeans, and probably wouldn't do it even if I could afford it. I'd rather get them at the Goodwill or the discount shop. One of the best-fitting pair of jeans I ever bought was from K-Mart, for under $20. And wouldn't you know - they don't make that style anymore... Even those of us who aren't dirt poor and totally broke appreciate a bargain. Bargains keep us from being dirt poor and totally broke. Here's a question - do people in Bentonville, Arkansas consider Wal-Mart a locally owned business? And how should I look at Dollar General, with its headquarters in Nashville? Is it a local business, or a chain? Another thing to consider is that sometimes Mom and Pop buy a franchise - so some of the businesses you think are corporate, may actually be independently owned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM Lttle Hawk, spoken like a true person who will never have much. "Nice guys finish last." ................................Leo Durocher |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:07 PM Kim, to Barbara and me, prosperity is having what we need. There are many things I would like to have, such as a van with a wheelchair lift, which would make my life much easier, we'd love to take a trip to Europe every year (we watch Rick Steves' travel programs on PBS and drool), I'd like a brand-new computer every couple years, I'd glory in a 52" wall-mounted HDTV, and we'd like more space to store what we already have. . . . But we do have everything we need. And we thoroughly enjoy life. But those who believe as the Calvinists and Social Darwinists do would consider us failures, not to mention obviously hell-bound. We drive a 1999 Toyota Corolla rather than having the desired van (fixed up luxuriously) for me and a BMW Alpina Roadster V8 for Barbara, we take a trip to Bob (Deckman) Nelson's in Everett every few months instead of an annual trip to the British Isles, I got a recent upgrade (new motherboard, CPU, hard drive, etc,) on my old computer instead buying new state-of-the-art, we have a perfectly adequate 13" TV, and too much stuff piled here and there because our apartment, although quite big, is a bit short on adequate storage and closet space. Books. My God, have we got books! And we read them. CDs (with a nice Sony bookshelf sound system) which we listen to a lot. We eat economically but quite well. And we have many friends and we entertain frequently. But with our combined incomes, we're well below the average income for our area of the country, although we are somewhat above the poverty line. Through careful management, we are debt-free (unlike many we know whose income is several times the size of ours). But as I say, we do enjoy what we regard as a rich, full life. And we don't shop at Wal-Mart. And Little Hawk, you got it, as I knew you would. What Martin doesn't seem to realize is that one need not spend all one's time "analyzing, and waxing philosophical over such trivia as saving money at a store." What one does need is a consistent philosophy that provides guiding principles for one's life, namely a set of ethical standards. This may require some study and thought in the beginning, and it must be constantly subject to re-evaluation. But to the person who doesn't mind using his or her brain for something besides a device to keep their ears from clattering together, that's not a chore, it's a pleasure. The acquisition of knowledge and the striving for the ultimate goal of wisdom are among life's greatest joys. And at the same time, provided you adhere to one's philosophical principles, you have the satisfaction of knowingly living your life with integrity. There are many schools of philosophical thought to chose from, ranging from the warped reading of Nietzsche by Adolf Hitler (creation of the ubermensch—"no longer affected by 'pity, suffering, tolerance of the weak, the power of the soul over the body, the belief in an afterlife, the corruption of modern values,' the superman determines what is good and what is evil, not allowing religion or society to determine these things for him, but by the dictates of his 'blood and bowels.'") to a broad range in which the goal is to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number through recognition of the kinship of all humankind. Everyone has a philosophy. The questions are: Do you really know what you believe?Plato said "The unexamined life is not worth living." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM That's not the way I see it, Martin. My life is filled with abundance. I lack for nothing. I literally have every material thing I could want at this point in life, the non-material side is good too, and I am happy. I consider myself very fortunate. I bet your life is filled with abundance too, despite our different philosophical take on this subject. Am I right? I decided not to shop at Walmart after, 1. Visiting the store...I don't like the way it feels in there...nor do I generally like the way big malls feel either...or casinos. They all feel like death wrapped up in a shiny package. and after, 2. reading a book about how Walmart has affected towns, employees, suppliers, etc. The book was written by a man whose company did supply Walmart and numerous other retail businesses for many years. He grew to hate the big "W" (for many good reasons) and wrote the book to let the public know how they operate. What do I care if I can save $1.25 at Walmart on something? It won't make any big dent in my life to spend that $1.25 at a store I have some respect and liking for. I give my business to people and places that I like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM How about shopping at Walmart for some things, like bulk items, but making sure you 'spread the dough around'? I am a Costco member for about twenty years and I've had two different reactions: 1) Storage awe - Just a feeling of walking through canyons of shelves without the 'art' of presentation and the variety of selection. 2) Good service. If you don't like it bring it back, no questions asked. And on more than one occasion when I've purposely gone to a locally owned specialist I've not found the variety I thought I would, ended up going back to Costco. But I still make the effort to spread it around. Don, in your previous reference to Social Darwinism, the link was interesting, but I think it didn't properly explain the difference between evolution and Darwin's Theory, which is a way to explain evolution. I have evolved a separate thread on evolution and 'W' so won't repeat myself. Social Darwinism was an attempt to justify the status quo by claiming it was 'scientific.' It was no different than claiming the divine right of kings. On the other hand, Martin is merely voicing the thoughts of most of the people who go to Walmart. The chain can sell a lot of stuff cheaper than anyone else through a sophisticated system of distribution and yes, non-union workers. I haven't caught them spending a lot of money on stars to promote their wares, like K Mart and Martha. That's fine with me. I don't like wearing clothes with someone else's name on 'em. I'm not an economist so I'm not going to get all philosophical about it, but I sure wouldn't open a small scale store to compete with them. There is competition out there, Target for one. I have friends who try not to buy anything made in the PRC. They can skip Toys R Us and whole sections of all the big box stores. They are also going to go without a lot of stuff unless they can special order them from Europe. I spread the money around, and rarely eat any fast food. Now let's talk about Starbuck's! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:03 PM Well, of course, if you like the place, by all means...shop there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:16 PM Exactly Little Hawk! And if you, don't, shut-up! Nobody is telling you how to spend your money or in Don's case, "what money?" Fuck politics when it comes to money made and spent honestly. By the way, that $1.25 saved is for one item. Multiply that by 10 similiar items in the shopping cart, you have $11.25 Multiply that by a number of months and over a year, you might have just made a couple of car payments or able to buy your wife something much nicer for her birthday. Or replace those rusty wires you call guitar strings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM By the way, that $1.25 saved is for one item. Multiply that by 10 similiar items in the shopping cart, you have $11.25 10 X $1.25 is $12.50, not $11.25, you dipstick! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM Ah, that's Martin! He's so funny when he's being pompous! Would love to hear him play - might even buy a CD if he;s that good! I did buy ALL the recordings of "The Portsmouth Sinfonia"... Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:29 PM Well gol danged, Herbie! Nice little food fight going on here. Shoot, we got folks draggin' poor ol' Pluto outtta his grave some 2000 yeras after he retired and then we got poor ol' Darwin gettin' a few laps 'round the track. Hope I didn't miss none o' the dead folks... But lets get real here. Walmart sucks! So do a lot of other folks... They just suck better than their competitors. Much better. And, whoever said they treat their emplyees well, get real. They don't. You go to Walmart in Leesburg, Va. and get a job and your gonna make about $8.00 an hour. The median home in the area is $275,000. You do the math... So lets talk about the WorlBank and the IMF fir a second. They make loans to third world countries, who in turn try to take the money and try to improve teir collective lots in the big fish bowl, only to find themselves "deeper in debt" as more and more necsities are privatized and more and more of the share of the wealth created by labor ends up on Dick Cheney's dining room table. Like what's with that??????? But back to Walmart. Hey, it *is* the system so why not play it to the hilt??? (But Bobert, ain't this thread about Walmart being the anti-Christ???) Well, yeah. And Halliburton, Lockheed-Martin, Costco, Bechtell, etc, ect, ect................ Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Teresa Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:42 PM isn't it interesting that these folk who call themselves "Darwinists" think evolution is an abomination? And rail on against Cuba, while buying boatloads of PRC products? I like J. K. Galbraith's observation: capitalism is man exploiting man. communism is just the opposite. T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: 42 Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:03 AM i love to save money. i don't shop at walmart. i do not want, in ten years, to have to drive 40 klicks to shop at walmart because they have drawn enough money out of my small community that all the stores have had to close. it' a simple matter of self preservation. although i may deplore the shady dealings in commercial enterprise...contract breaking, prohibitive penalties,employee mistreatment...it is purely my selfish desire to have the ability to choose where i shop that keeps my money in my community as much as possible. j ps. and i was expecting shatner |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:20 AM Let's talk about China for a minute. I know we'd all prefer not to buy goods made there, for a variety of reasons, some of which are pretty good. But let me ask this question: don't workers in China deserve jobs too? It isn't the fault of the general populace that their government sucks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 03 Sep 04 - 12:50 PM Changing our business practices regarding China has nothing to do with whether "Chinese people deserve jobs too." You might as well say "emancipation is all well and good, but you've just created a bunch of unemployed Negroes. Don't Negroes deserve jobs too?" Yes, Chinese people deserve jobs. But they don't deserve to live in grinding poverty so people like MG and me, whom they would see as fabulously wealthy, can own more stuff than we already do. The goal of many people with China is not to break the commies, but to insist on fair wages in countries with which we have favored trading relationships. This would have several effects: 1) make Chinese products truly have to compete in quality rather than in "race to the bottom." 2) Get those (Chinese) workers whose salaries we pay at WalMart and other places a living wage. 3) Discourage the outsourcing of jobs to places like China. It would ALSO have the effect of increasing prices on the cheapest goods, but in theory that effect would be offset by the benefits to our economy of the extra jobs and better products. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:07 PM "There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey." -- John Ruskin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:14 PM The bit about not buying stuff made in China is that maybe the people making it aren't being paid at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 03 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM Okay, that's fair enough. So remind me why we keep giving China "Most Favored Nation" trade status? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 03 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM True what you said about Greg F., Martin, but he would have to work for it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM Looking around the stores here I can buy at lower prices than Mall Wart, but OC you gets whats yes pays fer. What bugs me about the current Mall Wart disease is the crime that occurs around the stores. I guess if the folks who work there are so badly paid then we should not blame them for trying to get a money from someplace else ..ahem.. Mr Gibson is misinformed about the savings he thinks he gets. For one thing Mall Wart waters and underwieghs - like the guy in the old song "The Man Who Waters The Worker's Beer" they are very creative. The next thing about it is the inevitable bottoming of markets where the last poorest factories are at and they simply say 'no more price cutting' or in anger deliver dangerous goods - I think this has already happened. Mall Wart is a giant already wobbling under it's own overeating of the little businesses it scoffs up every day. I suspect with the inevitable increase in gas prices both Mall Wart and Chinese prosperity will begin to fall apart. Yeeehupp I would be selling that stock while it is still up thar... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:50 PM Guest, Sorefingers On what proof and evidence do you make your ridiculous assumption? Name brand items household and pharmacy products are hardly watered down and you sound like some old wive's tale storyteller for even making that statement. The manufactuers of these name brand items are hardly going to jeopardize the reputation of their trademarks by selling inferior products through Wal-Mart. You really sound like you are completely not in touch at all with the business world. What DO you do for a living? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Greg F. Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM Yup, Dougie Boy, if you don't know Rush Limbaugh, you don't know shit. And you know just a tad less about me. But keep on, its entertaining in a childish sort of way & facts never were your strong suit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:24 PM Lame comeback, Greg F. Try nah, nah, nah, nah, nah next time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:37 PM In Australia Walmart hasn't been doing quite so well. For a start, there are minimum wages and standards by law. When a fast food outlet sacked a minor age employee because he was the acting manager and had been mugged late at night carrying the takings to the bank, the US based organisation was shocked to discover that in Australia: They had to give him back his job and pay him damages, and fines: they had breached the law for sacking him unjustly. They discovered to the horror that such sorts of contract clauses are deemed by Australian law to be "unconscionable", unenforceable in the courts and illegal. They got much unwanted negative PR. The courts ruled that as a minor, if they wanted to employ him as a manager (and pay him minor rate wages!), they could not hold him legally responsible for his actions, as minors cannot be held responsible for their actions under law. Local councils are a bit of a hassle too, they insist on planning rules such as adequate parking on site, staff & public toilets, compliance with building & fire codes, etc. Destroys some of the cost cutting processes they can get away with in "The Land of the Free". Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM Crime follow poverty, Mr M G - you know it as well as the rest of us. So don't let yer kids near you know where after dark! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM Oh Hi Marty The Troll Script Robot! Nice to see you getting around. Dried your soulful tears yet? You will kick sand in the sandpit! ~~~~~~ In China they have great ways to undercut the price of goods. Have you ever seen the real low discount 'junk' stores that sell products with misspelt names on the labels etc? Well the Chinese Govt wants their manufacturers to make quality products, so for a foreign contract in which some 'unfortunate error' has been made, the Govt pays for the faulty goods (and lets the manufacturer keep them to sell) and the manufacturer then makes the goods correctly. Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:45 AM Kim C: I think the most favored nation status is in place so 1) US companies can avail themselves of cheap Chinese labor and 2) US companies like coca-cola can have access to the largest market in the world. The theory on that side is that the coke we sell them will offset the damage done to our economy by the loss of jobs. So in the abstract our "economy" does just as well. But the working class gets the shaft and the shareholders of Coke get the dividends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DMcG Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:13 AM An article appeared in the paper today headed "Wal-Mart upsets cosmic balance of ruins - Protesters decry building of store near mysterious Mexican city of Teotihuacan as attack on heritage". (see this link There seem to be a lot of issues here: for instance the benefits of tourism to the area that are put at risk (together with the environmental damage that brings in its own right), that the building is actually outside the controlled area, that providing something in the area seems to eliminate a 15 mile trip as an alternative (with all its impact on time, cost and environment), whether approving one building will ultimately lead to urban sprawl over a much wider area ... I'd be interested in reading some of your views. To prime things a bit, if anyone wants to support the "business have a right to do what they want" viewpoint, I'd like to see how they address the WalMart versus the Tourist Industry angle; and for those who want to follow the "no building should be allowed" line, can they address the environmental and social impact issues of the tourism! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM The prevailing madness of this whole culture is simply this: people are doing things for money rather than for actual result. And the actual result is the destruction of Nature and humanity...by degrees. Money is not real. It's a made-up idea and it has no real value. People have conspired among themselves to pretend that it is real. It was meant to serve them, but they now serve it. To no good end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:25 PM The quote is not "money is the root of all evil" but "The love of money is the root of all evil" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:56 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DonMeixner Date: 05 Sep 04 - 02:01 AM I shop at Wal-Mart and I'll tell you why. It's the first store on the left and it has a traffic light. My Uncle, Rev. Bill Gyatt was missionary in South America. He told Walton's big wish was to build an Assembly of God church in every major town in South America. That should explain Wal-Marts religious affiliation and their mission. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 04 - 02:22 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:37 AM sorefingers you have made specific assertions: That Walmart dilutes its products That Walmart underweighs what it sells That Walmart leads to increased crime in areas where they are built You have provided no backup assertions nor proof after being challenged on those assertions. Are we to conclude that you feel free to character-assassinate, provided that character is too large and amorphous for you to characterize any other way? If so, you are risking being called out as a liar. LH: Blaming money itself is no different than blaming printing for the fact that people believe lies, e.g. I refer you to sorefingers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:40 PM Looks like GUEST is speechless! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:32 PM turd used Latin ... lol as if anybody on this site cares a poop about it... ha ha...since 'Radox' is a bath salt sold in the UK... more giggles! I do not make asershuns robomouth, but I do repeat what I read and/or hear about the evil poverty machine.. The underweighing reports COME from a small independent Grocery company - they should know since they almost went belly up after Mal Wart closed down some of their little towns. Funny thing, in order to compete they had to invent to survive, so Mal Wart is barely hanging on there. Ass selling, well in my case I heard about it on CB and curious that I am had to take a peek. Shooore enough there they were, all lined up propping walls and selling ass. Hos, falling stuff, maybe prices as well, didn't ask. Would you like a quote robomouth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Sep 04 - 09:39 PM You misunderstand me, robomatic. I am not blaming money. I am blaming certain people's attitude towards money...their attitude being that "money is the most important consideration" (i.e. "the bottom line"). It's not. It's merely a tool to facilitate exchange. I do not judge tools as good or bad. They are neither, they are just tools. I judge human beings' obsession with this particular tool as being a self-defeating process that is destroying society and Nature. The real bottom line is Life. Whatever improves Life for all concerned is wise and efficacious. What improves Life for only a tiny minority and makes Life worse for the great majority (at the cost of damaging Nature) is unwise and disastrous. Money can be used wisely or foolishly. It can be used to do great good or great harm. But it is only a tool. I like making money and having money, as I'm sure you do too. I do not condemn money. I do say that it's a fictional construct, invented by people. As such, they ought to find more ways for it to serve them rather than them turning it into a huge God and serving it instead. That is a travesty. All the money anyone needs to be happy and fulfilled is "enough money". Tell that to the Walton family. They don't know the meaning of the word "enough". They think they're playing Monopoly. Have you ever played Monopoly? It's a game that illustrates perfectly the final end of corporate domination of a marketplace by giant centralized powers. One rich player (or a consortium of them) wins it all when the game ends...and EVERYONE else goes bankrupt. That is a recipe for social breakdown and disaster on a worldwide scale. That is the new Communism masquerading in the outer trappings of $$$Capitalism. That is poverty for the many and wealth beyond imagining for the few. That is war and bloody revolution...in the final end...on a worldwide scale. People have forgotten what the real Bottom Line is...LIFE! Because they are obsessed with money. That's not the fault of money. It's the fault of a very shortsighted and foolish philosophy regarding money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Sep 04 - 09:14 PM The corect ancient quote is "The _LOVE OF_ money is the root of all evil" The other quote is "He who dies with the most toys wins" Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Nerd Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM Sorefingers called me "turd." Didja think of that yourself or did your mommy help you? Honestly, you're a sorry comment on youself, buddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:09 AM Let's go back to the workers for a second. Most of us haven't had a personal experience with being employed at Wal-Mart - all we know is what we read in the papers, and perhaps some of it is true. But I think many of those same allegations could be made against other very large companies, if we looked closely enough at their employment records. In a large company, things sometimes happen because of an individual's poor judgment, and not necessarily because of company policy; and in a large company, there is likely to be a pretty fair number of jerks with their heads up their asses. They will do things that make the whole company look bad; and in our age of media sensationalism, the negative will almost always be emphasized over the positive. Now then... Doug's son has worked at Wal-Mart and had a good experience. I have a female friend who has worked at Wal-Mart for several years, and her only complaint is that her hours aren't as flexible as she would like - but that's the way of retail, and she knew that going in. She and her husband own a house and two cars, and have a lifestyle they enjoy. It's not upper-class, by any means, but they have what they need, and they're happy. If she feels mistreated by Wal-Mart, she hasn't said... but I know Sam, and if she did feel mistreated for one second, she'd leave there so fast that heads would spin. Anyhow, I'm not taking a side, or anything. I would certainly prefer that there not be so many damn Wal-Marts. On the other hand, my experiences there have always been satisfactory. Your mileage may vary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:47 AM L H thanks for the clarification. Sorefingers, your poor mode of expression says it all. You have trouble with spelling, punctuation, and distinguishing between a phrase and a sentences, at least when you are trying to write one. It may be that you have a handicap keeping you from properly using your keyboard. If so, you have my sympathy, and perhaps I should take your moniker more seriously. I can only guess that the content of your various harangues is: "Walmart BAD" Having saved you a lot of time and trouble, I expect you to at least be able to construct a few simple words of thanks, with or without "quotes". As for your education, you should look for a book called: "Eats Shoots And Leaves." It is not only somewhat humorous, but should allow you to better express yourself Yr. Obdnt. Srvnt. Robo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM Thanks, robo. Kim - Yeah, you hear different stories from different people. I'm sure some people enjoy working at WalMart and others don't. That goes for any big organization. It's more the effect WalMart has on the surrounding society that worries me. I am basically troubled by massive centralization in marketing. I would prefer to see more small and independent and locally-based companies, rather than a few giant corporations homogenizing everything. One of the things I loved in Cuba was: there were no fast food chains, such as KFC, Tim Horton's, McDonald's, etc. What there was instead was: hundreds and hundreds of handly little cafes and restaurants...each of them run in a unique fashion by a local person cooking REAL home-cooked food, not pre-packaged, microwaved junk food. The food was fresher, it was tastier, it was more healthful. What I saw in Cuba looked a lot more like real old-fashioned capitalism to me than what I now see in suburban North America. That's if your definition of capitalism includes notions like: individual iniative, freedom, and creativity. That's why I say that the new corporate mega-approach to marketing is creating a new, centralized, faceless, lifeless Communism under the mask of supposed Capitalism. The old Communism was concerned about centraling power in the hands of a few, period. The new Corporate Communism is concerned about centralizing power and WEALTH in the hands of a few. It's even more corrupt than the old Communism was, and it's far more clever in manipulating people, by appealing to their greed, their laziness, their desire for instant gratification, their desire for "toys" and distractions. Most people fall for it, and they become weaker and ever more dependent in the process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:16 PM Well, there is one very cool thing about Nashville. With the large immigrant population, we have TONS of independently owned restaurants, with just about every kind of cuisine imaginable: Mexican, Honduran, Peruvian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, German, Italian, Thai, Turkish, Ethiopian, Greek, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, good ol' American Meat & 3. One of the best burger stands in town is Fat Mo's - Mo being short for Mohammed. Beats McDonald's any damn day of the week. In one strip near my neighborhood, there's a Honduran restaurant, Vietnamese, and Ethiopian. All right there together, with a Chinese buffet on one side of the parking lot, and a steak house on the other. The upside is, Wal-Mart has created niche markets. There will always be a demand for things Wal-Mart doesn't sell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 07 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM The day of the "mom and pop" owned business is long gone, except as Kim pointed out, those that offer items or services the large stores like Wal-Mart, TARGET, KMART, COSTCO, etc., etc. do not offer. Might as well get over it, that's just the way it is in larger metropolitan areas. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM "The day of the "mom and pop" owned business is long gone. . . ." Well, it does look that way, but what I wonder is this: do you consider that a good thing? And if so, why? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:04 PM What's the difference? You make the best of it. And there is some good in it, for sure. Lamenting for the past and what has changed will not bring it back. Move forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:35 PM I don't consider it a good thing that it's more and more difficult for people to be self-employed, especially when it comes to things like health insurance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:42 PM I think it's just a sign of the times, Don. I doubt there is a big market for buggy whips today, but they were much in demand in earlier years. People rarely rely on horses to get them from one place to another, but at one time that was the way to go. It's just called progress. If you were to ask me if I decry the lack of demand for buggy whips, I'd have to say no. And I prefer my Honda Accord to a Pinto horse to get where I want to go. As to the mom and pop stores, they probably still exist in towns with populations under a thousand. If I felt stongly enough about providing support for the mom and pop's, I'd probably move to a town like that. However a move is not in my current plans. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:21 PM Mom and Pop stores gone and not comming back? Don't think thats too certain. Last time I really looked at this scenario, the future of MegaStores depended on the cost of transportation - which....... today ultimately depends on the EASE and cost of acquiring Gas and/or Diesel. After all shit is only half a cent a pound but where to get a thousand tons? The powers of our planet today are dividing up the known sources of Oil BY FORCE, because the balance of power depends upon it. Now I am not one to take what Governments do too seriously, but hey if they are worried enough to blow babies to smithereens to get it, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING ABOUT TO CHANGE .... whaddyathunk? Mal Wart is already falling down, the rise in oil prices is the bell before stink mart hits the junk pile. So I say sell Mal Wart stock while there are still suckers out there willing to buy a dead stock with high money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:40 PM Comparing the small family business with the making of outdated products like buggy whips is a bit disingenuous, Doug. Personal service will never be outdated, even if you have to search some to find it. And quality products will never be outdated, even if they're getting harder to find. But then, some people are satisfied with schlock. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:35 PM I see nothing disingenuous in comparing the two Don. They are both examples of the results of progress. Want some more? How about quills, fountain pens that replaced them, crystal radio sets, gasoline powered washing machines, pay telephones (headed toward extinction) etc. etc. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:50 PM No, Doug...this is progress: A better standard of living for all people, not just some people. An end to involuntary unemployment (I have no objection to voluntary unemployment). Equal educational opportunities for all people at no charge. Full medical treatment and preventive medicine for all people at no charge. Freedom for all people to travel wherever they please. Elimination of poverty and starvation in the World. Elimination of religious prejudice, torture, and execution by governments. Freedom from fear for the World's people. An end to war. Freedom of speech, press, and opinion. Freedom of religion. Freedom of sexual choice among freely consenting adults. Establishment of a worldwide minimum wage and minimum acceptable living standard. An end to secrecy in both government and business activities. The establishment of a worldwide Bill of Rights, a worldwide Constitution, a worldwide legal system, and a worldwide trading system...under the control of the populace...not special interest groups. Those things are progress, not erecting Walmarts and bigger shopping malls and filling them with products made by poverty-stricken Asian labourers. We are all One, Doug. Time to start acting that way. If your brother is in poverty, so are you...at some level you maybe do not perceive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Warren Buffet Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM Sorefingers: Let me know when you want to sell your stock. I'll give you a good price. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM Doug, if the small family business ever becomes outdated, this will be a very bleak world indeed. We'll all be working for huge multi-national corporations--tiny cogs in a huge machine--or sleeping under bridges. When people become a commodity rather than an end in themselves, you may as well replace human beings with robots. In fact, you will have replaced human beings with robots because the word "robot" (as first used by Carel Capek in his play R.U.R.) means "slave." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:34 PM Yes, and it will be the end of real capitalism and individuality too, Doug, replaced by a centralized multinational oligarchy, numbing conformity, a human anthill far more pervasive than anything Joe Stalin ever came up with. As a small-c oldtime conservative, you should dread seeing such an eventuality in the works. It's the power of money that drives it. Not the search for liberty, freedom, self-expression or anything like that, just the power of centralized money...made out of thin air...and not by governments, but by banks. A bank creates money out of thin air by pressing some computer keys when it makes a loan or provides credit (same thing). The banks control the money supply, not the government. The government is in hock to the banks. The banks control the political parties and the politicians. The banks are loyal to no country and no ideal, only to increasing their profits by lending fictional money that they themselves create at will. They are accomplishing the death of small-c conservatism and the death of classic liberalism as well, Doug...and your vote does nothing but elect the stuffed shirts that they trot out for you at election time...regardless of whether you vote Republican or not. You can't vote the banks out of office. Money runs everything in this society, Doug, and there is nothing your vote can do to change that, because your government is massively in debt to the moneymakers...and will do what they tell it to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM So it's MY fault, huh, L.H. and Don? I'm running the mom and pop stores out of business because I don't agree with your POV. L.H. what the post you contributed before your last one has to do with the subject of Wal-Mart no longer being the Antichrist is well beyond my comprehension. Kim posted this expecting an opinion on the subject. You give ME a lecture! The kind of civilization described in your last post, Don, is one of gloom and doom and will never exist. 1984 was a BOOK, that's all. We definitely will not stop living and prospering because mom and pop stores may cease to exist. Life will go on. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:24 PM Doug R.-- Obviously not by yourself, but with like-minded others--people who can easily afford to shop elsewhere but choose despite this to assist Walmart in its race to the bottom. You're "another brick in the wall". To link to the thread--Walmart is not the Antichrist, but, as the saying goes, "you can see it from there." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM Post# 100 Race to the bottom? Bottom of what? Wal-Mart is making money hand over foot because consumers LIKE to shop there. They are the largest and smartest marketing organization in the world. All your pissing and moaning and analyzing is not going to change that. PEOPLE LIKE TO SAVE MONEY! I can afford to shop elsewhere, but why should I? Why should I pay more for the same item elsewhere? What does it prove except you just spent more money for something you could have paid less for? All of this decadence of civilization talk is just crap. There is more decadence of civilization going on by the drunks in folk music pubs! Wal-Mart is providing steady jobs for many people. Don't want to work for them? Then don't. I never see any help wanted signs at the Wal-Mart stores I've been to. Perhaps some people are just to glad to work there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM The dinosaurs were the largest, but not necessarily the smartest living land animals. They had their time, but Martin, "All Things Must Pass", as will you and I. Money is not the root of all evil, it is THE LOVE of money... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:29 AM Actually, if all things must pass, then so will Walmart, so what's all the fuss about? Dinosaurs were actually pretty smart and swift, Fooles, or are you calling Mr. Steven Spielberg a liar? ;-)& |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Don Firth Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:45 PM "The kind of civilization described in your last post, Don, is one of gloom and doom and will never exist." For lots of people, Doug, it's here now. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:49 PM You may well be right, robomatic, some company or consortium of companies my buy Wal-Mart some day and create an even BIGGER Wal-Mart. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM Hey, I hope they do and we might even save more money! Fooly, you don't have to love money to want to spend it sensibly. You either have to work hard for it or just not take it for granted. Do you do either? Remember what that great American Ben Franklin said: "A penny saved is a penny earned." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:56 AM Martin-- If you don't understand by now, after 100 posts, what "race to the bottom" means, I won't waste my time explaining to you. Or, if you'd rather, check Kendall's post of 8 Sept 2004 8:11 PM on the Maul Wart Still Fighting the USA thread---it's very pithy. As for Walmart's presence, saturation has just about been reached and opposition is growing. The stock has been stagnant 5 years; that is, long before the market peak. Why do you suppose that is? Obviously no one can object to the fact that some people need to squeeze every penny, and hence shop at Walmart. My quarrel, and that of most of the Walmart opposition, I think, is with those who by their own admission can easily afford to shop elsewhere--support local businesses and farmers' markets, for instance. But, though they know of Walmart's exploitation of its own low-level workers and its destruction of US jobs, they still choose to patronize Walmart, thereby aiding and abetting Walmart in the above activities. Bigger is not always better, or would it make you happy to have one corporation rule the world? As I've pointed out earlier, I have no problem with saving money. Costco manages to both save money for customers ---- (I do, by the way, also shop locally and at farmers' markets)--- and to treat its own employees far better than Walmart ever has. See my posting of 16 April 2004 11:55 PM on the Walmart Sidesteps the Government thread, with specific comparisons, taken from the Wall St. Journal. Excerpt from a letter to the Journal--says it more eloquently than I ever could: "I will continue to seek out those companies that try to balance the needs of workers and shareholders. Not doing so is how we got to where we are now--companies focussed only on the short-term bottom line, and the scandals that have erupted from that mentality". It's only a question of time til we get the next scandal from Walmart---there have already been several. Why, pray tell, are there Walmart employees on welfare? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:34 AM Yup yup yup, we need to trim our sails here. How about 1929 for an example of what makes the last crash look like a sneeze? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:44 AM Also, Marty-- "You can't take it with you"---how many pennies do you plan to take with you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:35 PM As many as I can leave to my children, Ron or to Jewish charities. Not that it should really be any concern or your business at all on what I do with the money I honestly earn and spend, Ronnie baby. No one has lost any money with Wal-Mart stock either. Just went there yesterday. They had 10 cashier lines cranking it out in the nice upper middle class suburban store near where I work. A nice clean store, with employees who I have seen there for years and are helpful when you ask a question. Saved enough money to buy a nice dinner for my wife and I. Then when to an excellent bluegrass jam. What are you doing with your life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:44 AM The Australian Govt recalled all 1 & 2 cent pieces many years ago, so we can;t save any pennies here - come to think of it - we can't spend a penny any more either! Maybe that wrong with this country - it's full of sh.. sh... sh... shaving cream, shaving cream, makes your face all nice and clean... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM Depends on when you bought the stock Martin. I'm sure people have in fact lost money on Walmart stock. Say somebody bought it August 2001. After say, 2 years of the stock dead in the water, they sell. Just on commissions they lose money. And they have lost 2 years of opportunities to buy something worthwhile--say Costco ,for instance, which, in contrast to Walmart, has not been stagnant for 5 years. Also, I'm still waiting for an answer---just why are there Walmart employees on welfare? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DougR Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:13 PM Just curious, do you personally know any Wal-Mart employees on welfare? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM He doesn't. He's just a blowhard, DougR. An attitude problem because he hasn't got a pot to piss in, so all big business sucks. Achampion of absolutely nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 07:21 AM Doug R, Martin et al.-- Are you prepared to state categorically that there are no Walmart employees on welfare? If so, I would like your source. There are such things as unreliable sources. Among these would be Fox news and George W. Bush on one hand, and Ramparts (if it still exists) , the Nation and Al Franken on the other. There are also more reliable sources. One of these is the Wall St. Journal. In fact when I am debating Bushites I try to cite it as much as possible since as you know it is a well-known pinko leftist rag, right? This is one of those times. Therefore your quarrel is with the Wall St. Journal, not with me. I gave the issue of the Journal when I first cited it --it's 16 April 2004. Check it for yourself if so desired. The figures clearly indicate that there are Walmart employees paid below the poverty line. It is not the case at Costco. Martin--you don't read very carefully, do you? Over and over I have said that I have nothing against business, even big business. Yet again I will say it---it is possible to pay your employees a living wage, yet still give your customers good deals. Costco, in fact, does just that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DMcG Date: 13 Sep 04 - 07:37 AM As you might expect, the reality is more complicated than either side has presented. "Asda" is a major UK supermarket chain owned by Wal-Mart. According to the Times 100 survey, Asda is one of the top companies to work for, in terms of happiness of the staff, low stress, and so forth. For example, "Asda was our top company for flexible working last year and, with 20 initiatives to help people balance home, study and work commitments, it continues to be a leader in this field." However the staff believe (accurately or not is another matter) that they are on lower wages than comparable supermarkets and yes, the salaries are low enough to entitle some of the staff to UK 'welfare' in the form of family tax credits, and so forth. Wal-Mart is not alone in this by any means, but IF the staff are right about the salaries then a case could certainly be made that the general taxation is being used to allow Wal-Mart salaries to be lower than they would otherwise have to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:00 AM DMcG-- In the US, every company can set its wages as low as it wants--and frequently does so, subject only to what the market will bear. Only social pressure, especially through unions, can make a firm pay a living wage. However I am virtually certain that neither Costco nor Walmart is unionized. Yet Costco's starting pay is above the welfare level. Walmart's is definitely not. So common human decency, combined with a conviction that it is in fact good business practice to pay a living wage, can play a role here. This may also have something to do with the fact that Costco's annual worker turnover is 24%. Walmart's is 50% ( source--Wall St. Journal) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:09 AM For the annual staff turnover figures to back up your point you would need to also quote what age bracket the staff fall into. Do they employ school leavers/college students etc willing to take a low wage and with no intention of staying? Just in need of easy local part time work? Neither for or against Wal Mart, never been into one, just pointing it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:13 AM We are talking about full-time adult work. (One more thing, obviously, there is in the US a mimimum wage. Even Walmart pays this. It's not the same as a living wage.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DMcG Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:22 AM I agree with you, Ron, about the importance of paying a living wage. I just wanted to confirm that, at least in the UK, staff employed by Asda/Wal-Mart are 'on welfare' in at least one sense of the term and it is more of their staff than comparable supermarkets IF the survey is accurate. But DougR seem to be right on much of their argument as well. It appears, when all appropriate caveats are taken into account, that a lot of staff *do* seem to like working for Asda. I can't comment on Wal-Mart generally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:23 AM I think age still comes into play though. Younger adults often are looking for stop gap employment. As in school leavers/college leavers. In the Uk depending on the size of the family,and what child care arrangemnts are made, many employees have their income boosted by tax credits too. Think someone has already said that below. It is interesting though that you think they are not unionized.I can never understand why people would work somewhere that isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM Walmart is very aggressively anti-union. Yet there are places where it's one of the few firms offering any employment. We are not talking here about Walmart's famous "greeters" ,but about people at the cashier level and above. Starting salary for Walmart cashiers in its Las Vegas supercenter in 2004 was $7.65 per hour. It would be interesting to know what starting salaries were in Oklahoma, Texas etc---possibly even lower. At any rate Costco pays starting employees at least $10 per hour. $7.65 is below poverty level. $10 is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM The Bush admin is anti union. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 13 Sep 04 - 11:53 AM So am I. Plenty of union officials driving BMWs and Jaguars. And Ron, Oh great champion of all of the downtrodden, no one is forcing anyone to work a Wal-Mart. It is employment at will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:19 PM wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhat do youse peeple think ab bout i |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:50 PM Gee, "Martin"-- I'm deeply honored by being called a champion of the downtrodden. Never happened before. I don't deserve it. More somebody like Big Mick, who's actually doing something about it. Like him, all I really want is fair play for everybody, including business. It just seems pretty clear that Walmart is exploiting its low-level employees, and it seems any decent person would be against that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:53 PM Also "No one is forcing anyone to work a Walmart (sic)" Not so. When Walmart sucks out all the economic juices from an area and is the only sizable employer left, some folks have very little choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:56 PM There are worse places to work. I occasionally go into Best Buy and they usually have real loud hip-hop going on in there on all their car stereos and hi-fi sets. Walmart is way better than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Once Famous Date: 13 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM Wal-Mart for many is a clean, honest living. Ron, look up the word sarcastic and you might learn something. All's fair in business, Ron. Business is business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:29 PM People who are on welfare in the US are only allowed to make so much money from a job, or else they lose their welfare benefits. The downside to this is that a job that pays enough for them to lose their benefits won't pay enough for their health insurance. It's a vicious spiral. I don't think that's Wal-Mart's fault, since that system was in place long before they arrived. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 15 Sep 04 - 02:37 AM Life will go on with or without Walmart or mom and pop stores but thats not the point. Its the quality of life that matters to me. A happy, thriving community of people is the basis of a strong and healthy nation. To some people that doesn't matter. They just want more for less. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:46 AM Martin-- You? Sarcastic? Say it ain't so. You're always the soul of tact. And please, explain to me what sarcasm is. I have no concept. Kim C. et al.--- It's only Walmart's fault insofar as Walmart does not pay enough so that welfare for its employees is not necessary. To beat a dead horse yet again, Costco does pay enough. By the way, it's not all smoke and no fire. Walmart is always in legal trouble, and has paid many fines for sharp business practices, including a $50 million fine for one lawsuit. Now you would think that even a company with $8 billion in profit per year would not sneeze at $50 million. (After all, as "Martin" says, a penny saved.....) That would have paid a lot of legal fees. Obviously they made the calculation they would lose in the end. Also, from a 28 March 2004 Wall St. Journal article,---- to refresh memories: (I've already posted this earlier) Employees covered by health insurance: Costco; 82% Walmart; 48% Health insurance enrollment waiting periods: Costco: fulltime 3 months, part-time 6 months Walmart: fulltime 6 months, part-time 2 years Portion of health insurance paid by company: Costco: 92% Walmart 67% By the way, Costco is quite profitable, and has good prices. In a lot of areas, Walmart has a sorry record, to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:06 AM Ron: social darwinism at work, Costco is willing to pay more to attract and keep its workers so the less successful go to.... Seriously, it's food for thought, and here's more: Walmart Trying To Open A Store Near Mexican Ruins |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: DMcG Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:50 AM That's the same story I posted a link to back on 4 Sep, above. As I said then, this particular story gets more complicated the more you think about it. For example, quoting the Yahoo article: ====== Wal-Mart Mexico has local and state approval for the store. Federal archeologists monitoring construction say it poses no threat to the ruins, and officials say most people welcome the store for the low prices, investment and jobs it will bring. "This is a development opportunity," town secretary Jorge Lopez said. "We need water, drainage, pavement, schools." ====== Yes, my 'gut reaction' is that such a building should not be near ancient ruins. Probably the same benefits of jobs, funding for water, drainage etc could be obtained if a different site nearby was found. But I don't know if there is such a site that is not visible from the ruins, for example. And if Wal-Mart was taking the line it has only two suitable sites identified: there or in another town 30 miles away, I am not in a position to know what the social effects of that are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:04 AM No comment on the Mexico situation without reading more about it. However, in the US, water, drainage, pavement, schools are a fact. Another fact is that Walmart sends the vast majority of its huge profit back to the home office in Arkansas, and as Kendall has pointed out, is frequently not as generous to charities as the local businesses it has supplanted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:50 AM D: Sorry, I didn't remember your link. I thought the news was 'fresher' than it was. I checked back a few days and didn't see nothin' so I posted. I can't remember if Churchill said "Democracy is a terrible form of governement, except for all the others." and this has been adapted to: "Capitalism is a terrible economic system, except ...yada yada..." or the other way around. When you come upon an economic model that pays, a few things are going to happen amongst the rest: Someone is going to copy it for themselves, and someone (maybe the same person) is going to make it more efficient every way they can . I don't think it is useful to label it 'good' or 'bad', but a responsible society establishes a way to review consequences of its actions and institute correcive measures and/ or regulations. So is Walmart any worse than the coming of the 5 And 10 Cent Stores. It is taking advantage of modern warehousing and transportation, and fulfilling a lot of needs. This leads to a shift in how things are bought and sold, and the value of expert services. Isn't it parallel to the shift from small family owned farms to corporate farms and animal husbandry? And isn't it all driven by growing world population and growing world development? Is it worth lamenting when there is no better alternative? Again, there ARE other choices. There are other stores, there is increasing use of specialization stores which carve out niches the big guys don't, and eventually as one of another of these guys goes down the tubes, there will be interesting new indoor community centers or paper airplane hangers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM Ron, that depends on how you define "enough." What is "enough" for a single person still living at home may not be "enough" for a single mom on her own with 2 kids. Also keep in mind that Costco charges a pretty hefty membership fee. In Tennessee it was $49 last time I checked, whereas Sam's is $30. I doubt that many people who shop at Wal-Mart regularly have $49 for a wholesale club membership. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Costco in the Nashville area is in Williamson County, which has been the wealthiest county in Tennessee since before the Civil War. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:12 PM Kim C-- Re: single mom: what is your point? It seems that if you don't think Costco, at $10/ hr, pays enough to avoid welfare------- (I'm just basing "enough" on the official poverty line( ($18,000 for a family of 4, I think)---- then Walmart at $7.65/hr would be worse. So we would agree. Why are we arguing? I'm not saying that Costco is Utopia; just that Walmart, to refer to the thread title, is not the Anti-Christ, but you can see it from there. Re: Costco's fee: Costco's fee is $49/year; Sams Club fee is $30. That's a $19 difference in a year--isn't that surmountable? Obviously, far better than either would be to patronize locally-owned stores, farmers' markets, etc. But Costco will help to pinch pennies while not extracting a pound of flesh from its own employees. By the way, would you mind if I start a new Walmart thread?--this one is pretty long. I'll abide by your decision it you can tell me soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Kim C Date: 16 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM Whatever you'd like to do is fine. $10/hr might get someone off welfare, but after taxes & insurance deductions, let's say that ends up being $8/hr. Working 40 hours, 4 weeks, that's only $1280. Depending on geography, a single person might be able to survive on that. A single person with one child would have a really hard time. Here in Nashville at least 1/2 that would be rent. In the area where our Costco is, just about ALL of it would be rent. So yes, we would agree that it's better, but it still ain't so great. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:53 PM You're absolutely right, Kim. $10/hr is not enough to live on, for the reasons you cited, among others. But at Costco that's just starting pay--at Walmart starting pay is even worse. And the health care comparisons I listed earlier (15 Sept 2004 5:46 AM) make the single mom Walmart employee's situation pretty dreadful, much worse than with Costco. What's more, Walmart is touted as creating lots of jobs. Most are at the low end, so this gives an idea of what those jobs really are like. But every person who takes a job with Walmart then would not be counted as unemployed. Manufacturing and high-tech jobs are being lost in the US, and Walmart low-end jobs are being created---this is Mr. Bush's "improving economy". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wal-Mart no longer the Antichrist From: robomatic Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:37 PM You folks know more than me about pay scales, but let me add in that I've been treated pretty well personally at Costco in comparison to several local stores, and that Costco manages to stock local items in each of its sites, one of my favorite locally made breads in Anchorage, and Vermont cheeses in Massachusetts. One thing I'm sort of up in the air about, whether to buy books and CDs at Costco. They have a very limited supply of high volume stuff, but it kind of cheats the local bookstores. On the other hand, the time I made a real effort to patronize a local book store, it went out of business just as I was about to qualify for a free book. |
