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BS: Is Religion Rubbish?
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Subject: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:01 PM All the wars [or most of them] is about religon, and most terrorists are religous [like the IRA ANd al kyeda [sp?] and pope saying that that people not allowed to use condoms because its against the church rules etc, so people im africa get aids. and catholic church is full of kiddy fiddlers. and bosnia war was serbs againnst muslins. anyay=you never see buddists making wars! [they are vegetarian, and dont like killing people, [or animales] and isreal war is about religon ie jewish folk against not jewish. would we be better off with out religon or not? ie=ban the whole lot of it, eg-tell people not to be religous. waht you think about this? john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM anyway=most religois folk are ok, it just a few of religous nutters waht spoil it, i know plenty of religous people and they are ok, even my own cousin is religous, [hes a vicar], and he knows all about god and jesus and stuff like that [hes called pete]. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:09 PM terrorists think they are bolddy great, but theu arent, they are rubbish! i bet , if they want religous, they wouldent bother been terrorists. they think they going to heaven, they arent, they going to the rubbish dump, like all the other shitty people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM I guess my first post never arrived: I can only reprise the great comment by the late and great THEODORE from his stage performance: "Who knows what is in the great beyond---we do not even know what is beyond our behinds". Man sure had insight. I am honored to have known him. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:19 PM I am not religious myself, but I'd hardly say "rubbish". For many people it is a real source of consolation, of joy, of reassurance, of strength, and other good mental and emotional things. So hardly "rubbish". On the other hand, for millennia religion--or should I say extreme religionists--has/have been the source of much of the world's evil, much as you referred to in your examples. Even on this negative side, I would not use your word "rubbish", because that trivializes the negative. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:19 PM hello, only war i can think of that is not religus is falklands war. [and second war], but they was picking on the jewish people, so thats religoius really isent it! i dont know about the first war because i dont know anything about it my grandads dad was in that, but i dont know anything about it, i think germany started it, but i'm not sure really, it might of been russhia, not sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:23 PM I misquoted THEODORE. "Who knows what is behind the beyond---we don't even know what is beyond our own behinds" Record straightened out. THEODORE speaks once again. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:32 PM Sir John: To name only a few non-religious wars: American revolutionary war War of 1812 (US/England) US/Mexican war Perhaps US/Spanish war Probably Britain/American Colonies/French & Indian war. That is not to say that proponents of either or both sides in these wars didn't use the "God is with us" propaganda. Both politicians and sincere religionists trot that old warhorse (pun!) out. But I don't see religion in the causation of any of those. Some might add the US Civil War to that list, but I think there was a good deal of religious feeling worked into it, so I didn't list it there. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:33 PM Thanks for the clarification, Bill, but who is the great Theodore? He could come in handy in this year of great debates if he has more quotable contributions. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:46 PM John: No, in itself religion is not rubbish. What IS rubbish is two things: intolerance, and trying to make religion into civil law. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:49 PM jOhn, you are careening and stumbling around where Angels fear to rollerskate. :-) Why do you always spell like you've just downed a couple of gallons of vodka? I would retort that the Falklands War was in fact, religious, like all wars...only it wasn't tied to a traditional church religion. It was tied to slightly more subtle forms of religion. In the case of that one it worked this way: Argentina: 1. was religious about the notion of its national territory and sovereignty over that and considered the islands to be part of said national territory. 2. And their flag...! (grin) 3. And the generals were religious about staying in power, and hoped to distract the public in Argentina with a foreign foe, and 4. gain a victory, thus guaranteeing popularity. Didn't work out for them, though, did it? Great Britain: 1. Was likewise religious about the notion of their national territory, yadda, yadda 2. and their bloody flag as well! (double grin) 3. and Maggie Thatcher was religious about staying in power, and hoped to distract the public in the UK with a foreign foe, etc.. 4. and gain a victory, etc.. And it worked out for Maggie! Now there are some great religious underpinnings for the Falklands War, only just not CHURCH-based religion, that's all. Now sober up and get serious, mate! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM This guy John from Hull's posts are quite pathetic to read. A top hat and cane wouldn't improve this guy's act. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:23 PM litlle hawk-waht does careening mean? i look in the dicshunarry, but it doesent say anything about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:24 PM martin gibson-get lost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:40 PM move sideways or in an unsteady way; "The ship careened out of control" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM oh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Cluin Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:53 PM Religion in itself is not rubbish, but most peoples' use of it and way of approaching it is. We're just not mature enough yet to deal with it so they'd best put it on a shelf till we're ready to play nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Dewey Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:13 AM Most Religion Is Ageless Wisdom, (not just Christian Religions) But When Others Try to Interpret the Religion And Believe It Will Solve Every Problem One Encouters in one's Life, I believe that it the Folly, If not Insanity of Religion. Many Years Ago I had A Health Care Professional tell me He's Seen More People In Mental Hospitals Over Too Much Religion Than from any other cause. I Have A Close Catholic Friend of Mine That Has Too Much Religion, and personally I question his ability to discern reality. For Example Some of the Following Statements Are His Convictions: 1. He was taken up into Space (during an immoral act of co-habitation) Toward the Planet Pluto and was set on Fire, Told To return to earth, where he would become an Angel and Destroy the World With Fire on the great judgement day which is to come. 2. He saw the Virgin Mary in Resurrection Sementary and Later Saw Jesus Standing on the Banks of the Red River of the North. ( Wow I thought Jesus was supposed to come a second time for us only, not a third) When I ask how he knows that he saw these beings, he cannot answer but is postively sure he is right. He also believes he must continually suffer (and actually WILL physcially suffer on a cross, just like Jesus and reminds me (every single day) That the world might end today. Anyway, was it Religion that did this to him, Or His abuse of Religion. I would think the later. Religion, like most activities can either be healthy or unhealthy, depending on how balanced the person is who is participating in the religious experience. Habit and Environment are the keys to a well balanced religious individual. Religious Fanatism, Revivalism etc. are usually the results of weak minded suspectable individual's who do not control the thought impulses and directions of their minds. Thought Impulse combined with emotion, create actions and beliefs, People thus that cannot control their minds, cannot control their outcomes. I think all religious fundamentalist are a little on the mentally ill side as emotion and religious excitment gains more importance than logic. Illogical actions, leads to mind control and/or mental illness. So in many ways I would agree with you, that religion does NOT largely help the world, in that it is hard to control when placed in the hands of competant rabble rowsers that can manipulate and milk the sacred texts for all they are worth for there own benefit. Religious scriptures in any religion should only be read by competant people that have the ability of reason and can use the full faculty of thier minds (to make the religion compliment thier lives) Unbalance people that fall for anything, need help and discernment, more than they need there Bibles. I know for me, religion (not just Christian religion) has made my life an enriching experience of pure joy, but like everything worthwhile in life, the proper balance of all experiences is what brings the real joy in life (i.e. you don't need to live your religion 24 hours in order to be religious) Even my new mystical experiences, I try not to overdue, If I did, I believe that just like the Religous Fanatic, I too would lose track of the fact that they are just that: experiences, not constraining rules and prisons of non-discernment. Dewey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Date: 03 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM The Falklands war was not religious, it was the Great Bitch Queen Thatcher, who sent British soldiers to their deaths in order to ressurect her dying political career. eric |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: greg stephens Date: 03 Sep 04 - 04:53 AM CareeNing is cleaning a ship's bottom. CareeRing is staggering about out of control. Some religion is rubbish eg Spanish inquisition, witch hunts. Some religion is sublime. eg singing "Precious Lord, Take my hand" or "Dear Lord and Father". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:09 AM "This guy John from Hull's posts are quite pathetic to read." "A top hat and cane wouldn't improve this guy's act." MG John from Hull has but one face any many people know who he is, you hide behind a stupid name and have many faces. Your feeble attempt in the music thread is pathetic to say the least. Why make a personal attack on john he has done nothing to you, and neither have the others who you bait to trade insults with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST,Banjoman Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:56 AM Lets get things straight: what this thread is on about is organised religions which impose a set of rules for living one's life. By and large, adherence to these basics (love thy neighbour as thyself is really the only one) would eliminate all wars and friction between ethnic groups. However, there is a great and fundamental difference between Religion and Faith. Faith (for me at least) is a belief in the existence of a bountiful and merciful God who's only son (Jesus) suffered and died for us all, and will come back to claim us one day) Unfortunatley, many groups (Catholics included)decided at a very early stage that it was necessary to make rules and regulations as to how one should follow Him, taking a leaf straight from Judaism, which became obsessed with adherence to the rules rather than seeking the truth in ones own way. So, there are many of us about who profess a faith of some sort, but do not claim to be a partaker in any from of organised religion. Simple adherence to the love thy neighbour rule should suffice for all, but thats a very hard thing to understand and could mean letting go of long held beliefs and prejudices. Hope this screed hasn't bored anyone, but its a good thread and is at least thought provoking. Blessings |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:01 AM buddhism - the true path (but its not a religion) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: mooman Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM I agree with s6k. Buddhism is non-theistic (i.e. no god) and is more a way of life than a religion although it is often classed as such. Peace moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM Greg: Careen has too meanings, one of which is given above (move sideways or in an unsteady way; "The ship careened out of control" ). To careen a ship is not cleaning her bottom, but laying her up on the strand in order to clean her bottom. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: greg stephens Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:21 AM I tend to think(I know opinions differ on this one) that "the ship careened out of control" is a mistake for "careered", not a second meaning of careen. I appreciate that once a mistake is made often enough, dictionaries should start recognising the new meaning, even if it was originally a mistake. I would say we havent quite got to that point with careen/career yet, but I'm sure we can agree to differ on this one, Amos. On the other point, I am totally clear that careen can mean either to tip the boat over, or to scrape the barnacles off once you have tipped it over. This usages are long, long established. Eg " we spent a week in the bay careening the boat". It didn't take a week to tip it over. I'm not an amateur pedant, Amos, I'm a full-timer. My two parents, four grand-parents, and only aunt and uncle, were all school-teachers. I've got it in the blood! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM Okay, Greg, thanks for clarifying your professional status. I guess we all reach a point where we know more than the dictionaries do, as we mature. That's why dictionaries were invented!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:45 AM I think JFH is realy a deity testing us. Did you realise that J is only 3 letters away from G, F is 9 letters away from O and H is 4 letters away from D? Add the numbers up (3+9+4) and you get 16. Add those up (1+6) and you get 7. And we ALL know the significance of the number 7!!! So if JFH and GOD add up to 7 then we must all bow down and worship him in all his splendour. Remeber well his commandments Keep holy the sabbath curry ship Thou shalt not commit sobriety Thou shalt punch the horse I'm moving to Hull tomorrow... Cheers DtG (Isn't work boring on a Friday afternoon...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:45 AM American Heritage: v. ca·reened, ca·reen·ing, ca·reens v. intr. To lurch or swerve while in motion. To rush headlong or carelessly; career: "He careened through foreign territories on a desperate kind of blitz" (Anne Tyler). Nautical a. To lean to one side, as a ship sailing in the wind. b. To turn a ship on its side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing. v. tr. Nautical To cause (a ship) to lean to one side; tilt. a. To lean (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing. b. To clean, caulk, or repair (a ship in this position). n. Nautical The act or process of careening a ship. The position of a careened ship. (Also offers that originally the term came from carène, (on) the keel, from Old French carene, from Old Italian carena, from Latin carna) Religion is even more complicated than language, however. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:53 AM Religion - Good. Religiosity - Bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM "Religious Fanatism, Revivalism etc. are usually the results of weak minded suspectable individual's who do not control the thought impulses and directions of their minds" Dewey, I couldn't agree more. Excessive Use of Capital Letters is Another Symptom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:51 AM Sir jOhn, judging by the experiences and points raised in the thread concerning the Muslim way of fighting terrorism in France, the answer to your question may well be "yes". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 03 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM my answer is yes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: robomatic Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM Religion is the awe in which we hold our ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST,observer Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:36 PM Cluin, you've got it right! There really is nothing wrong with religion as such, but the fault is with religious people. The vast majority of religious people use it to gain an edge that on others. It is the ultimate "show off." And the real harm is done by political leaders who use the NAME of religion, not the idea of religion to get whatever they want. Bush is a master at this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: belter Date: 03 Sep 04 - 03:58 PM I'd have to say that technoly, religion IS rubish. It probobly all started because some prehuman couldn't handle telling his kids that gramma was dead, so he said she's gone to heavan. In short, he lied. On the other hand it searves some useful purposes, like helping people deal with death, convincing the otherwise morly bankrupt that there are concequences to evil, and getting idiots to voet for the republican party. The problem with outlawing religion is that religous persicution is MUCH WORSE rubbish than religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM John, I side with Joe Campbell on this one. Religion can serve a function in the way that myth serves an educative role showing how societies can behave with civility. This was f the motivation in the establishment of religion. Religion has been distorted, perverted and neurotically abused by ego-maniacs, dictators and power-hungry leaders. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM Charley Noble: THEODORE was a truly intellectual performance artist (prior to the use of that term). I have seen him from the 50s on. He made many appearances on early Letterman programs. Performed till he was about 92 and died at 94. I interviewed him at his apartment for my program back in 1997. I still feel priviliged and lucky that this came about. A man with a wonderful history and a very tragic life. I am sure that at Halloween I shall play an excerpt of his material on TRADITIONS--which I co-=host with Ron Olesko. You might Google Brother Theodore to get a memorial page with his bio. His bizarre tales held many nuggets of truth and insight into the human condition.. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: MaineDog Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:53 PM Religion, as we mostly see it today, is indeed rubbish. However, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are very real. Understand this, and you will do well MD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:18 PM Most religion's are but codes of conduct to live by whether that code of conduct actually believes in a supreme being or not. The problem comes when fanatics/fundementalists try to make those codes into laws to control other peoples lives. The fanatic/fundementalist are so wound up in their own ideals they cannot see that other beliefs are equally valid. The result is then repression, hatred and war, inquisitions and burnings. All of the major religions (with the exception of Buddhism) have carried out purges either within or outside of their particular beliefs usually for the gain of power by their leaders. Even countries without a recognised relgion, China for example, has had codes of conduct which have been regularly hijacked by fanatic groups within, resulting in things like the Cultural Revolution and other purges since it's foundation in 1949. Religion is not rubbish if it is persued in the manner in which most of its founders set out. Sadly there are too many fanatics and fundementalists hijacking the initial good thoughts and ideas. I am not religious but nor am I an athiest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religon Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:10 AM Amos, have you considered the fact that virtually all our civil laws are based on moral and philosophical concepts that have come down to us through religion? Think about it. It is utterly impossible to separate religious thought from civil law. This does not mean, however, that civil law should be under the management of the clergy! Hardly. s6k - I am trying to grasp how a Buddhist could possibly indulge in launching a thread concerning "A fart on your houses". It doesn't add up. :-) Buddhism is indeed an excellent philosophy, full of wisdom. So is Taoism. Check it out if you get a chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:01 AM Most religious groups have a power structure, and it's almost inevitable that people in power are not exemplary people. I think that when many people look at religion, all they see is that power structure, and they aren't able to see the idealism and depth and goodness that form the heart of many religious groups. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 04 Sep 04 - 07:08 AM Martin Gibson, perhaps you'd take take time out from sneering at John's spelling to explain what you meant by "And know one knows yours..." Then of course feel free to resume scorning those of us who can't communicate. John, according to the Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, religions are memes - viruses of the mind that propagate themselves exactly like other viruses, preying on the weak and gullible. HERE's an essay by Dawkins that illustrates the insidious way that religion spreads, and the way that the innocence of children is abused in the process. It begins thus: A beautiful child close to me [...] believes in Father Christmas, and when she grows up her ambition is to be a tooth fairy.[...] This little girl is of an age to believe whatever you tell her. If you tell her that bad children roast forever in hell, she will have nightmares. I have just discovered that [...] this sweet, trusting, gullible six-year-old is being sent, for weekly instruction, to a Roman Catholic nun. What chance has she? Like sheep we can be steered to all kinds of assumptions, no matter how irrational. For instance, we accept (and many assume) that the north pole is on top of the world (except that you can get gimmick globes in NZ that have south at the top). Equally we accept media conventions whereby kids of four or five can be "muslim children", "protestant children" etc, In reality they lack the maturity to have decided what they hell they are, yet we are happy to project on to them the gullibilities of their parents and communities. But like sheep again, the children do indeed, on the whole, turn out to be whatever their parents are. At this rate its going to be many years before we can claim herd immunity from the pernicious virus of religion. But even in the God-fearing USA there's hope. More than 90 per cent of the members of the US Academy of Sciences are atheists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:28 AM i just bought a book on buddhism |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:16 AM "I am trying to grasp how a Buddhist could possibly indulge in launching a thread concerning "A fart on your houses"." People seem to forget that eveyone farts, The Queen and The President to name but two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:21 AM Excellent beginning, Kay. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:27 AM Sorry forgot about Buddhist they also fart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM why shouldnt a buddhist launch a thread entitled "a fart on all your houses" ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM
What a horrid fate!! -Joe Offer- |
