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BS: Is Religion Rubbish?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:50 PM Well, that's just a matter of opinion. It depends what your definition of religion is. But I'll agree that Buddhism certainly differs notably from the more rigid types of traditional religions you mentioned there, s6k. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:49 PM Uncle Dave - Buddhism is NOT a religion, it is the number one common misconception of buddhsim, is that people say it is a religion. it is more a way of thinking, and living, than a religion. There is no god to worship, there is no sacrifices / pilgrimages that have to be made, no idols to bow before, no texts to read and no "rules" there are quite a few misconceptions of buddhism that are extremely common, but the most common of these is that it is a religion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:43 PM belter - You might benefit from reading some good books which go into the concept a litte more at length than I've got time for here. Let me put it another way: I believe there is a beneficent, intentional power within me and all around me that inspires me, assists me, works through me, and communicates with me powerfully as long as I am willing to listen to it and act upon what it tells me. I call that "God". I also call it "Life". I also call it "Spirit". I also call it "Inspiration" or "Muse" or "Intuition" or "Love". Because of it I perceive that I am not alone. Before I believed in it I definitely thought I was alone. Because of it I perceive that my real power lies within. Before I believed in it I thought that real power lay outside of me. Does that help? Have you ever read a good book on Taoism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Native American Medicine Way? Kinesiology? Meditation? Any of those might help. Why argue with me about it? Read what's out there and think it over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:33 PM Given that I've been that awful thing, an agnostic/atheist, (depending on the phase of the moon) since I was 13, I've wished for social reasons that I could find a concept of God that I could believe in. And I've told religious friends, observing that religious faith is a good, in that it comforts or strengthens the believer, it would be nice to have the assurance that believers tell me they get from religious faith. BUT! When someone says "God is everything" or some such I find it entirely too simplistic to be helpful or even meaningful. I "tried that concept on" for a number of years, but it wouldn't work. If God is everything, he/she/it is nothing uniquely distinguishable that calls for a separate concept and name. Also, it's hard (for me, at least) to think of a god who/which is everything as being a conscious entity. And, if he/she/it is not conscious of self, then he/she/it wouldn't be aware of us, to know or care whether we worshiped him/her/it. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: belter Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM Little Hawk: I find it a little spurious that you try so hard to define a god that is easy to believe in. The way I see it, you believe or you don't. I don't get this need to make something up just so you can believe. If you need to do that, did you realy believe in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:29 PM Barb'ry said, in part: I wonder if all religions are inherently violent, even Buddhism (ok, not a real religion)... Where do you get off saying that a religion that you don't agree with, which has a different orientation from that which you are familiar "is not a real religion"? There are millions of people in this world who do consider Buddhism a "real religion". That makes it one, despite whatever definition you might want to offer, based on the religious view you have presumably been immersed in since birth. So don't say, "ok, not a real religion", with the "ok" as if to say that everyone of course would have objected to calling it a religion. Same with Tao and Confucianism. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:37 PM Agreed, Two Bears, there are many basically peaceful religions. That doesn't stop unpeaceful people from espousing them and misusing them on occasion, though. Paranoid Android - You are not capable of denying the God of which I speak, because that God is the Infinite. The Infinite means: All That Is. Everthing. You are part of it, and our experience of Life is part of it. To deny it would be to deny yourself, life, and everything that you are experiencing. So I'm simply saying that ALL being is larger than any one limited part of itself. Not superior. Larger. More complete. I suppose you can say that something more complete is superior if you want to. Is the whole car superior to one bolt or piece in its body? I don't know, but it's certainly more substantial, that's for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the idea of vanity and greed as being an inherent part of religion. It may well be an almost-inherent component of leadership. Since most religions have leaders, that component of religion may be beset by vanity and greed - but they're in the leaders, not in the faith itself. In its essence, faith is a matter of seeking understanding of the mysteries we encounter. Some religious groups attempt to come up with easy answers and impose those answers on followers - but I don't see that as true faith. That's just another form of escapism - running away from the questions of life and trying to silence the questions and questioners with packaged answers. Along that line, let me quote Little Hawk and then twist and distort his words to my own purposes:
No? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:13 AM PA: Vanity and greed may be the basic elements in organizing religions, but they are not the basic elements in generating one. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Two_bears Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM LH: There are lots of peaceful forms of religion, and spirituality. Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Sufism, Hawai'ian mysticism, Native American Shamanism, Wicca, etc. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:52 AM Interesting that you should mention C S Lewis, shepherdlass. I've always thought that was a fairly potent theory, that we can't conceive of the next hierarchy up the line (let alone the next but three) just as bacteria can't conceive of us. I readily accept the possibility of higher life forms. But it hasn't persuaded me to be a worshipper for two reasons: first, we don't expect bateria to worship us; and second, even if there is a Great Architect in the sky, it must be wildly improbable that he/she wants his/her presence to rule our lives, or he/she would have been less equivocal about revealing that presence. The idea that it's all an elaborate test of faith is surely absurd. This would raise all kinds of questions. In the Christian sphere, for instance, is "doubting" Thomas roasting in hell because he refused to believe, or is he "saved" because he had the great good fortune to be presented with irrefutable proof? Joe, it's a fair point that at least some of the major reforms in the Catholic church have been "bottom up" initiatives. Maybe I hadn't thought about that enough. Equally some reforms - notably the one with a capital "R" - were flatly rejected and it is pardoxical as well as tragic that such splits, within institutions founded to promote the values of Christianity, should have resulted in such appalling bloodshed (for which I would not blame one side more than another). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: s6k Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:55 AM bunch of people made up some stories. eventually someone wrote them down, and there you have religion. bunch of arse |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,Paranoid Android Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:01 PM Vanity and greed are the basic tenets of ALL religions. Politicians (god bless them) crave power of a material kind, they merely want to control the secular aspects of your life. Religions, on the other hand, want to control your mind, your spirit and your soul. EVERY religion in its vanity believes itself to be the chosen representitive of the SUPERIOR BEING and in its greed wants the world population to surrender to it. Little Hawk can state with certainty that there is a superior being. I can state with equal certainty that there is no superior being but since I have no proof I don't expect anybody to believe me. The fact that he is more eloquent than I is not proof of the existence of the superior being. A man who is trying to impose his will on another (without resorting to violence) is not a true pacifist, hence my statement, "The only true pacifist is an atheist". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Sep 04 - 07:41 PM No, Barb'ry, not all religions are inherently violent nor are all philosophies. But all creatures who are deeply afraid are inherently violent. Observe this demonstrated amply in Nature, as well as in religions. All religions contain individuals who are afraid, but the really serious troubles arise when the leadership of the religion in question is afraid. This goes for political entities too. Buddhism is not generally a violent religion, but it is certainly possible for Buddhists to become violent under the pressure of fear of one kind or another. They then turn the religion to their own purposes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Sttaw Legend Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM My next door neighbour worships exhaust pipes. He's a catholic converter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Sttaw Legend Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Barb'ry Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM I wonder if all religions are inherently violent, even Buddhism (ok, not a real religion) with its involvment in the war in Sri Lanka - very violent on both the Hindu and Buddhist sides. I'm happy with 'live and let live' but wonder if we would be better standing on our own two feet and not constantly passing the buck when the going gets tough, to some imaginary person, whatever name you decide to give her/him/it. I think it is the continuous seeking for someone else to solve your problems and take the blame which gets my goat the most. Barb'ry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:37 PM Some of the Catholics that have walked the walk in my estimation are: Dorothy Day of the "Catholic Worker" The Berrigans Ammon Hennessey (the Catholic Anarchist) The Liberation Theologists of Central America Mother Theresa These folks are the antitdote to the poison of Bishop Fulton Sheen. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: shepherdlass Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM Hold on Sir John All wars are religious? Most wars are about territory (ie filthy lucre or the source of it) first and foremost. The fact that some clever spinmeister then portrays the war as religious duty just makes for more willing cannon fodder. For myself, can't see religion as a way forward, but also take heed of great scientific brain of C S Lewis, who could. Think it was his analogy that, just like bacteria can't conceive of the larger bodies on which they live and which can ultimately destroy them, maybe - and I know that's a big maybe - there's something bigger than us. From An Unashamed Fence-Sitter, Unwilling to offend a greater power she can't actually conceive of |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:55 PM This gets a little muddy because Little Hawk is responding to Bill who is responding to me, and I'm responding to Peter, but I guess that's OK. We just have to do a little gear-changing to follow the parallel discussions. Peter, there's another logical error that develops if you view an institution from the top down. Here in this Forum, I have often seen the Catholic Church condemned for having taken over older Pagan traditions and celebrations. From a top-heavy perspective, that seems to be true. I think there's another possibility: when people converted to Christianity from Pagan religions, they continued to practice the traditions and rituals they had treasured for generations, adapting them to their new beliefs in a process very similar to the "folk process" of the development of folk songs. The authorities in the Catholic Church simply confirmed this process, rather than imposing it. Change in the Catholic Church often takes place by grass-roots processes, processes that often aren't even understood or recognized by Church authorities for centuries. Eventually, the authorities confirm the process as doctrine because it's something that has always been done - failing to see the evolutionary process that has taken place. That's the usual process of doctrine - it evolves over centuries, and then is confirmed - it is rarely imposed. I see the Catholic Church as an organic body that has changed mostly by evolution. Relatively little in the Church has happened through imposition of authority, although the authority is certainly a very visible aspect of the organization. Evolution is a much stronger force, but it is much slower and much less visible. Much of the time, authority only confirms what has already taken place by evolution. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:05 PM Those are good questions, Bill. Here's how I would answer them...not that I'm saying I have the final answers, but it's my best guess at this point. 1)IS there a real cognitive, creative force behind the universe as we know it? Yes. All manifested reality has sprung forth out of a directed, conscious, creative intelligence that wishes to express itself in an infinite number of ways...and it does. Everything we see around us, including us, is an expression of that intelligence. Why does the Infinite do that? It wants to know itself. You can't know what you are until you know what you are not. This requires the creation of a world of relativity (apparent opposites). This led to a formless, measureless, infinite state of Being deliberately splitting itself up into millions of measurable, finite forms and phenomena which we call "the Universe". The Universe is a singularity, but it appears as a collective of many finite things. Thus the Infinite is able to know itself by observing what it is not....finite. And so on. It observes itself as light/dark, here/there, "good"/"evil", happy/sad, full/empty, and so on....temporary appearances of something that is all-inclusive and not temporary. It's outside of time. 2) IF there is, does 'it' care what we do, including worshiping 'it'? No. Not in the least. The Infinite, being the complete Unity of All that IS, lacks nothing. It needs nothing. It requires nothing. Under such circumstances it doesn't "care" what we do in the sense you mean. It certainly doesn't require us to worship it. We ARE it, individualized, and so is everything else. Would something require itself to worship itself? Only if it was insecure, and that's ridiculous. How can something which is everything be insecure? The best evidence of the fact that the Infinite requires nothing from us is this: we have absolute free will within the limits of the various natural laws that suffice to establish a coherent and functioning Universe that has form. This is not to say, however, that the Infinite does not Love us (and everything else). Why would it not. All conscious beings love themselves at a deep level, because they ARE the reality they know. 3)IF it does, how do we know what the rules are? There are no rules (other than observable natural laws, such as: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...that's what karma is!). There are no moral or ethical rules. We make those up ourselves, in our attempts to have a better life. If there were rules, it would stand in the way of our creative use of free will. So there are no rules, but there are useful suggestions...if we ask for them. Accordingly, let's say we want to live a peaceful and harmonious and prosperous life. Well, if you listen carefully to your better inner voice (which is the voice of the Infinite), you will soon be able to find plently of good suggestions as to how to achieve that...and help others achieve it likewise. If you listen to the voice of Fear (which arises out of your own consciousness of separation...the notion "I am completely alone here!"), then you will not hear those good suggestions. You will hear other suggestions, such as: If I get a lot of weapons and go and kill or enslave those other people over there and take all their land and goodies...then I will be prosperous, happy, and feared! Then I will be safe! Won't that be marvelous! I think I'll start raising my army right now and go out there and kick ass! That guy was not listening to the kindly suggestions that arise out of the Infinite (which knows there is already enough of everything for everyone to live well)...he was listening to his own separated fear...because he thinks he's alone! He's not alone. Now you take someone like that guy and put him in charge of a nation, a political party or a religion...And you've got a really big problem. We've seen this happen a lot on Planet Earth, haven't we? Talking as if one was representing the Infinite God, but really just representing one's own fear. People can believe in God, and still totally fail to grasp what is godly in terms of behaviour. And what is godly? To love without conditions, to be generous, to work in favour of all life, to allow, to accept, to rejoice, not to judge others, to endure in all those qualities regardless of outer conditions, and not to fear. To see Oneself in everyone and everything else. I believe this describes a man like Mahatma Gandhi quite well. He was well tuned in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM Peter, I can't argue with you, because we speak in different terms. You allow only the negative aspects of church history into your view of the Catholic Church, and you give no allowance whatsoever for anything positive. All the things you say about the Catholic Church are true - but they do not tell the whole story. Another thing - you view the Catholic Church only from the perspective of authority and leadership, and never pay any attention to the thinking and actions of the many saints and teachers and faithful people who are also an intricate part of the history of the Church. I think that if you view only the top authorities of almost any institution, you are bound to see that institution as profoundly corrupt. It's certainly true of the United States. In my lifetime, there have been only two or three Presidents that I have really been able to respect - but yet I love my country and see beauty and generosity and goodness wherever I go. But I don't think of Bill Clinton and George Bush as true representatives of America, any more than I think that the Spanish Inquisition is truly representative of the essence of the Catholic Church. Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Bill D Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:47 AM Joe- I hear folks saying, in essence, "if extreme versions and exercise of Catholicism (or any religion, for that matter) is wrong, where should the line be drawn? Why is a moderate version 'right'?" It may be that the same argument applies to the entire gamut of religious expression & belief. There is an old 'joke' about sex that goes "excessive sex is when anyone does it more that YOU do." I think that religion could be plugged into that joke with very little re-phrasing. There are only a few basic questions: 1)IS there a real cognitive, creative force behind the universe as we know it? 2) IF there is, does 'it' care what we do, including worshiping 'it'? 3)IF it does, how do we know what the rules are? If you are not sure about 1), then you don't even need to answer 2 & 3 and all the sub-questions that follow. All you need deal with then is what to do with all the people who are telling you that THEY know the answers and influencing the very fabric of your life with decisions, laws, and practices based on THEIR beliefs. I simply do not know any way to deal with question #1, barring a relevation so clear it CANNOT be mistaken. The answer to the thread topic is, simply, NO, religion is not rubbish, because the tendency to consider it has influenced most of mankind's history and we have the mental capacity to ponder the question....religion is VERY important. Now...Is religion 'true' or 'necessary'? There are a couple more topics that may be what Sir j0hn meant to ask in the first place! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 08 Sep 04 - 07:32 AM Belter, you express the dilemmas very well. Joe, you seem to me to be denying what's there right under your nose. From the early councils, which pre-occupied themselves in large degree with what any outsider would regard as fantastically narrow definitions, through the middle ages and up to the present, the popes (and indeed the anti-popes) have laid down the rules in terms that brook no compromise. And whenever the church has had the power, it has suppressed error and heresy by cruel means. What possessed arrogant, ignorant clerics to persecute Galileo? And what were your wonderfully enlightened Catholic universities doing to let it happen? What were free-thinking students doing about the many thousands of similar abuses that have gone on in the name of their church? How far have they persuaded the masses that the vast volumes of Catholic canon law, into which the church's doctrinaire edicts have been codified, are simply there to be broken? And where were the catholic universities while Rome was banning books by the thousand? The fact is that wherever independent thinking has crept in, or students have bridled against the evils imposed by the chief exec's department, the result has been bitter schism. Not even agreement to differ. So in short I would say yes, by and large, it WAS all indoctrination and rote memorisation of rigid dictate that got the church to where it is now. (The imposing of mindless penances such as having to repeat Hail Mary's ad infinitum speaks volumes.) The idea that Catholicism is some kind of collective, with the laity or congregation helping shape its core beliefs (as actually does happen in some churches) is not one I've heard before, and even suggests to me a misreading of what the One True Church is all about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,GROK Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:03 PM "Until very recent times, any tradition of independent thinking within Catholicism has barely existed outside the US . . . ." Bishop Romero--Liberation Theology |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:57 PM
As for the Cardinal that spoke in error about AIDS and condoms, all I can say is that a lot of us Catholics didn't believe him. He was wrong. That wasn't a myth - it was just misinformation. A myth is a sacred story told to attempt to explain mysteries that are unexplainable. While the details of the story may be fictional, the heart of the story may convey profound truth that cannot be expressed in scientific terms. Much of what was written about Jesus may or may not be mythological in part - but the story of Jesus expresses profound truths that have inspired many through the ages. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:40 PM Don't be so sure it's a joke when you say that, belter. I have known numerous atheists who were religious. It's just that they weren't religious about God, that's all. :-) You don't have to believe in God to be religious (in my opinion). Anyway, all those believers have a hard time agreeing on what God is, don't they? I think it's because they get lost in the details...or the jargon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: belter Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM I'm afraid the things I've said weren't clear. Some of you say them so much better. I certainly desire religious freedom what ever your faith. Mine happens to be atheism. My little jock calling it a religion. I do think religion can serve some useful purposes, and I've no dought there are many good, decent, relious people. I hope they will make the best possible use of there fath to motivate them to be kind and useful members of society, to serve as a philisopical anchor for their personal self actualization, and to guide them morally and ethicly. But I feel sorry for them. One reason is that I know that they are vonerable to the minipulation those who would hijack religion for their own evil purposes, which has already been much discused hear. Another reason, and I'll admit this is subjective, is they are being lied to, and spreading the lies they were told. They are being controled by long dead liers, and they will infect there childeren. It doesn't matter what religion, orginized or not, how enlightened a lie their religion preaches, I just cann't ignor the lie. Even if accepting it might make me a happier person, and have social advantages in the society that I live in. No dought they pitty me as well, because I'm going to hell, or what ever they believe. I know it's hard to reconcile this almost millitant atheistic view point with my stated suport of religious freedom. Freedom is what it's about. I may prefer them to wise up and smell reality, but I would fight to the death for their right to their beliefs. Wich was a major point I tried to make in an earlier post. Some one sugjested outlawing religion. That would be a terany at least as terible as any commited in the name of god. I like to say that I'll never ask anyone to kill for my god. If you disagree with me, please do not be angry. Life is to presious to waste on anger. Enjoy your own belief system, make the best of it, and I'll try to make the best of mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,GROK Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM Well, that's different. It is well know here on Mars that Canada's William Shatner IS a god, worshipped by British people, American people, Canadian peo--why, the list is endless. It is also well known that your particular place in the 'karmic to be' is assured due to your veneration of this great man. Your stalwart defense in the face of his seven or eight human detractors has been duly noted by the Keeper of the Earth History and Grocery List. Speak on, O Little Hawk. Amaze the masses with the TRUTH about the human we affectionately call Willie. Indeed, tell us about your Willie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM Have I fully explained the tenets, requirements, and rewards of Shatner worship to you yet, GROK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,GROK Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM I object to PEOPLE telling me about their religion or their God after I have made it clear I am not interested. I don't do that to them. My remark about other folks' religions being rubbish was facetious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:22 PM OK Joe, what about the myth peddled by the president of the Vatican pontifical council for the family, that the HIV virus can pass through the membrane of condoms with the consequence that condoms are helping to spread AIDS by promoting a false sense of security? The World Health Organisation line on Cardinal Trujillo is: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million." Ignoring the question of what good Trujillo thinks he's doing by pontificating on a matter so far beyond his authority (you would perhaps say he's not likely to be sincere anyway, being "upper management") his intervention would certainly be consistent with his church's long history of "imposing answers." Until very recent times, any tradition of independent thinking within Catholicism has barely existed outside the US, and even now there are substantial communities, some of them relatively primitive, where it has yet to penetrate. In such communities the church retains - and sometimes exploits - the capacity to do great harm with its myths. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:14 PM Actually, within my own religion, Roman Catholicism, we have both schools - those who explore questions and those who wish to impose answers. I think that's true in many religious groups. In some ways, I don't think it's totally wrong to hang onto answers - I think we all have a need for answers, as long as we keep ourselves open to other answers and other understandings. Sometimes, it's not a bad idea to hang onto answers that may not be incontrovertible truth. Is it wrong to cling to a mythology or a tradition, even though it may not be scientifically correct? In our "modern" age, it seems that some people will respect the myths and traditions of other cultures, while rejecting the myths and traditions of our own. Maybe that's not right. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM WELL SAID, Joe! It is religion that poses questions that can lead us forward to greater understanding. Avoid like the plague religions that impose answers!!! (Jehovah's Witnesses are a spectacular example of the latter approach...but they are mostly rather nice people, I find, although very rigid.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Two_bears Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM Two Bears - Yeah, you're probably right about that. I find Taoism to be very appealing and sensible. I LOVE the creation myth of Taoism. I like Zen Buddhism because of it's Taoism influence. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:02 AM I suppose there are two different perspectives of religion - one perspective explores the questions of life, and the other imposes answers. I think one of those perspectives is very healthy, the other quite dangerous. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM TROUBLED - I feel that everyone else's religion is their own chosen path to Self-Realization...which is just fine for them, in all probability (and just fine with me). That's why they chose it, because it suits them. Later on they may very well choose something else. That also is fine with me. What I object to is people trying to force, threaten, or cajole others into accepting their religion in exclusion to all others. Religion should not exclude, it should include, if it is not to do great harm and trespass upon people's freedom of choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Sep 04 - 12:00 AM Okay, Alaska Mike, sounds like we're on the same track there. I have no TV, do not listen anymore to commercial radio at home, and live rather simply. I agree along with you that organized religion has done great harm over the centuries (and some good here and there but a lot more harm). I think the all-pervasive pressure of marketing has utterly dwarfed religion as a cultural influence in most developed societies, though. Where you find religion exercising a much more dominant role is in some of the Third World cultures, specially the harder line Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Religion is just used as window trimming in the West by cynical politicians. What really drives policy is corporate marketing schemes. Religion is used by people like George Bush as a way to influence certain voters, but money issues are the real force behind the throne. Most North Americans are religious about these 3 things: convenience, conspicuous consumption, and instant gratification. They have been encouraged into this pathetic Homer Simpsonesque couch potatoe lifestyle by ceaseless corporate marketing via TV, radio, and print. Most notably TV. You cannot even go to a modern cineplex now and see a friggin' MOVIE without sitting through a whole bunch of adverts first! Nor can you rent a video or DVD without sitting through adverts for a bunch of other movies you probably DON'T want to see. It didn't used to be like that. It's damned annoying. I do not pay to see a movie and expect to have to sit through ads for cars, lip gloss, soft drinks, other movies, and whatever the hell else, but I no longer have any choice. Thank God they have not found a way to beam advertising straight into your skull somehow. They would if they could. Organized religion is a bit player now in North America and western Europe. It's not the power it once was. People have got their minds mainly on the material rewards of life, not spiritual considerations. Two Bears - Yeah, you're probably right about that. I find Taoism to be very appealing and sensible. Paranoid Android - Gandhi was a pacifist. He was not an atheist. Jesus was a pacifist. He was not an atheist. Mother Teresa was a pacifist. She was not an atheist. Buddha was a pacifist. Most of the saints were pacifists. Most serious spiritual seekers are pacifists. I have all my life been, in practice, a pacifist. I am not an atheist. Your statement simply does not hold water. In fact...where did you ever get such a bizarre idea???? I have to wonder about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,TROUBLED Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:53 PM The thread title asks a question. From what I have read above, the answer seems to be a qualified yes. Everyone ELSE'S religion is rubbish. Now I see, Grasshopper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Two_bears Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:30 PM A study of Taoism (a philosophy more than a religion) leads to this kind of broad view of things. You can see that there are just a few basic impulses and thoughts behind people's behaviour. One is...they want to believe in something...some kind of moral and ethical structure that underlies and supports their actions and renders their world comprehensible. Religion is usually There is more religion in Taoism than you think. I would HIGHLY recommend for you toread "The Shambhalla Guide To Taoism" by Eva Wong. She discusses several different forms of Taoism. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Two_bears Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:19 PM I agree with s6k. Buddhism is non-theistic (i.e. no god) and is more a way of life than a religion although it is often classed as such. And you're sure about that? Then please explain to me what the buddhist phrase "Namu amida Butsu"? It is Pureland Buddhism invocation of the Amida Buddah; who is everywhere and at all times (sounds Theistic to me), and to invoke the Amida Buddah into them and become a living buddah. I'd have to say that technoly, religion IS rubish. It probobly all started because some prehuman couldn't handle telling his kids that gramma was dead, so he said she's gone to heavan. In short, he lied. On the other hand it searves some useful purposes, like helping people deal with death, convincing the otherwise morly bankrupt that there are concequences to evil, and getting idiots to voet for the republican party. Belter: I guess you have never seen anything happen that convinces you that a religion is real. Up till 8 years ago I was a convinced athiest; but I had an OBE in 1996 that turned my then worldview om it's head, and gave me a spiritual awakening. In the last 8 years; I read four translations of the bible cober to cover, assorted scriptures in Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, mormonism, Gnosticism, and a lot of other isms. but I NEVER received any peace until I got away from organized my religions. After exploring Native American Indian spirituality, and Hawai'ian mysticism; I began to have mystical experiences that proved to *MY* satisfaction that my form of spirituality was real. i just bought a book on buddhism s6k: what book did you buy? I am enjoying "The Three pillars of Zen" by Phillip Kapleau. I just finished reading "Zen Keys" by Thich Nhat Hanh. Those are the only two buddhism books I would recommend of the 20 or so I have read. In case you are not aware; Zen is a blending of Buddhism and Taoism. A friend recommended that I study Dzogchen Buddhism. He recommended that I read "Dzogchen: The Self Perfected state" but the book did nothing for me. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Bill D Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:51 PM If you'd like to read some of the best writing ever done on the subject, I offer this: In 1959, at Washington University in St.Louis, I attended a lecture by Walter Kaufmann, professor of Philosopy at Princeton...I practically ran to get his book, "Critique of Religion and Philosophy"....later he wrote another ...."The Faith of a Heritic" below is an excerpt about it from this page "Writing about religion has always been a risky endeavor. There are few subjects which so often provoke banal,intellectually dishonest discussions that rarely get to the heart of the real issues. But Walter Kaufmann, one of the greatest scholars of the last century, succeeds in Faith of a Heretic where so many others have failed. Instead of defining concepts like "faith" and "religion" without examining their historical and cultural uses, Kaufmann traces religious ideas through their development in the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and subsequent philosophical discourse. This analysis results in a study of religion that avoids the reductionist condemnations of faith so common among today's "free thinkers," and the simplistic diagnoses offered by writers in the "science and religion" movement. If you want to start thinking seriously about religion, this is the place" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: GUEST,Paranoid Android Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:17 PM The only true Pacifist is an Atheist |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Cobble Date: 06 Sep 04 - 08:19 PM Just to finish an earlier banter. From the Oxford English Dictionary:- Careen 1, Turn (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking or repair. 2. N Amer. Swerve about; career. (Based on Latin carina "keel") Careenage. Bye Cobble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Alaska Mike Date: 06 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM I'll stand by my original statement, Little Hawk. I agree with you that commercial advertisement is as evil as you seem to believe. But religion has been around for thousands of years longer and has developed into a much more insidious evil. I don't watch much TV, I don't buy anything on credit, I barter and recycle, and I try to keep religious zealots far away from my front door. I know where the chains are, how are you doing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 04 - 06:51 PM The con job I am affected by when I sit in the restaurant is a barrage of inane and obnoxious advertising pouring at me over a radio station...NOT some religious messages. If you think that religion is the "biggest, most successful con job ever perpetrated on humans", you're mistaken. Aggressive consumer-directed marketing of commercial products is the biggest, most successful con job every pepetrated on humans...and it's EVERYWHERE in this society. It is what is wasting the World's resources, funding the World's wars, and ruining our future on this planet. Religion is a mere sideshow in comparison. How you gonna remove your chains, Alaska Mike, if you don't even notice they're there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Alaska Mike Date: 06 Sep 04 - 05:11 PM IMO, religion is the single biggest, most successful con job ever perpetrated on humans. It was begun long ago so that the "holy" men could control their local populations. When money came into being, it flourished. Now days, the big religious con continues to rape the pocketbooks of rich and poor alike. People do find solace and friendships in their congregations and that is a good thing. But that is one of the reasons the big con has continued for so long. If there were no religions, we would find some other means to "congregate" with people of like minds. Religions have always taken a role in politics throughout the ages. The power of the church had to be appeased in order for the politicians to administrate. This put enormous power in the hands of the clerics to make laws which increased their influence and eliminated their rivals. This is just one of the very important reasons our founders wanted a separation of church and state. Our constitution was written to protect religious sects from government persecution, but it also protects the citizens of this country from the imposition of religious doctrine by any sect that might be in the majority. I am concerned that too much religious influence is infesting our government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 04 - 12:59 PM Yes, well, I think religion is Universal, Dave. I'm a philosopher by nature. I don't think people can help but be religious. It's in their very fiber. Just about what is the question? I don't call this "circular reasoning", I call it careful observation of human nature. A study of Taoism (a philosophy more than a religion) leads to this kind of broad view of things. You can see that there are just a few basic impulses and thoughts behind people's behaviour. One is...they want to believe in something...some kind of moral and ethical structure that underlies and supports their actions and renders their world comprehensible. Religion is usually an attempt to establish moral and ethical ground rules. Even atheists definitely want to establish such ground rules, they just don't want to link them to any nonhuman or superhuman agency. John from Hull, however, was obviously talking about religion in the more conventional sense when he started this thread...church-based religion positing the existence of a God or Gods. What do people want? That's the question. In general they want: Air. Water. Food. Shelter. Companionship. Affection. Entertainment (fun). Love. A sense of purpose! A sense of identity! A sense of meaning! (they often look to organized religion for those last three in particular) They find these things whatever way they can, usually prompted by the established programs of the culture they are born into. I find looking at these things in a broad way a lot more enlightening than bitching about whether or not religion is "rubbish". It is a meaningless statement to assert that religion is rubbish, since there are about a million different varieties of religion out there. It's more useful to look at what unites all people than to quibble over the details that divide them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Sep 04 - 12:37 PM Okay, now that you've defined "religious" so VERY broadly, I'll go along with the idea that everybody is religious (in that broad sense). But that's only because you've defined it to include behavior and attitudes which are universal. Circular reasoning, or "begging the question" in formal logic. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion Rubbish? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Sep 04 - 09:02 PM Peter K - I like your answers. :-) I too have had precisely the experiences you describe with Jehovah's Witnesses on a number of occasions, and once with an earnest pair of young Mormons too. It was fun talking to them about the general subject of religion, which is why I bothered to do it. I didn't convert them to anything, but I certainly gave them something to think about and raised some doubts in their minds. I think if I had been representing any church I might have got those two Mormons interested enough to come back and discuss it again. As for the JW's...forget it. They're sure they are among the elect, "the few" who will be saved! It it makes 'em happy, well that's okay with me. :-) I'm fine with people following any path they want to as long as they don't unduly trouble other people about it. Yeah, I'm positive you're religious about some things, but that's not saying I know what they are... And I don't mean religious in a church sense, needless to say. I tend to use the word religious to describe any strong and deep level of belief in anything which rests on faith alone, or on established habit, or on various other quite arbitrary cultural assumptions...and we all have such assumptions. Most people never even examine those basic assumptions. We have them about things like money, romantic love, political parties, moral practices, sexuality, dress codes, personal grooming methods, whatever we have absorbed holus bolus from our culture, and in the process, taken for granted and made part of our own identity. We all do bizarre things and think they are "normal", necessary, and efficacious when they are usually arbitrary and unnecessary...and sometimes downright harmful. I call that being religious...because it is thoughtless programmed behaviour acquired from others through the passing on of mythology...which is what religion is for many, many people. They let someone else do their thinking about life for them and they then think it's the ONLY right way to think about life. Scary! John's original question was a bit silly. However, it's stimulated some interesting debate. Dave - Yeah, I guess I do consider that those "three statements are really true beyond argument." But that's just me... :-) You can, of course, argue with them by all means and you have a perfect right to. No problem. |
