BS: God's simple plan of salvation...

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:58 AM

I fail to see any great merit in any religion which involves a bribe which promises a personal reward, not for being "good", but for blindly acclaiming the merits of the so-called "only true faith".
Jesus Christ was a wonderful person---by all accounts [and I don't disbelieve them..], but he Himself was heard to query "Why callest thou ME "good""? The better human being is the one who a good person for the sake of being just that---and far superior to those who practise "goodness" for the sake of a promised reward.
   We have two bright specimens leading Britain and the USA---Blair and Bush. They are reported as having "prayed together" [preyed?]. As Rab Burns once wrote---"--If such as he in Heav'n may be, then welcome, hail, Damnation!"

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM

Georgiansilver, I do have quite a lot of freedom to decide what I will do and when. But that's not really the point. The point is that you may feel that you don't have time to study things because your life is very ordered, but that is just you. Some people don't have ordered lives, and some are able to find ways to study even within the well ordered lives they lead. And some of those who do study will come to different conclusions about spiritual matters than you.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:21 AM

A favorite of mine ( a caudated sonnet)


I think I have posted it in the past, but more people need to read it. Thanks, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:11 AM

Sorry.........

ABU BEN ADHEM
                   by James Henry Leigh Hunt
                            (1784-1859)

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:04 AM

Abu Ben Adhem
"Abu Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace
And saw, within the moonlight of his room
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom
An angel writing in a book of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold
And to the presence in his room he said
'What writest thou?' The vision raised its head
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered: 'The names of those who love the Lord
'And is mine one?' said Abu. 'Nay not so'
Replied the Angel: Abu spoke more low
But cheerily still and said 'I pray thee then
Write me as one that loves his fellow-men'
The angel wrote and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great awakening light
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed.
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest."

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:59 AM

John from Hull... We Quakers (also known as Quackers, Quakes, Quacksers, Qwookers (my Isreale friend Kay of the band Kay and the Boyz) Qwinks, Quacks,) DO pray, we pray everyone else whould stop attempting to convert the world, converstion is the ultimate act of disrespect for ones fellows and for the basic consept of a single God. I realize that in saying that, I am guilty of the same, but what the hell. As to non violent, yes we genneraly are, however some Quakers have been guilty of murdering those who promote the myth that we have ANYTHING to do with Quaker oats, other than there is a picture of me on the lable... Buelies (spelt wrong) in Ireland (the Tea company) IS Quaker owned, Cadburry, Hersey, Chase and Sandborn coffie, Folgers Coffee... all were founded by Quakes, as we have a maritime tradition and need the dry goods (we were Whalermen... sorry Sir john from HuLl... but we DID eat the cruthers...) and as to religion... I am not adverse to discussing it over a wee drink - though I don't genneraly drink)but I recall a great and late Quaker elder, Peter Fingesten who once wrote, "I drink therefore I think".
Well there we are... here I am, and what ever.\ Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:22 AM

CarolC I am happy for you to have a disordered life. When I took my early retirement, I considered that now was the time to live an unplanned/unordered day...to just do what I wanted with every minute of the rest of my life....it has been impossible! Other people make demands on time..I have started things which I continue with, many of which are regular. Much of my time...in spite of no longer working is ordered because I have allowed it to become so.
If as you say your life is not ordered...you feel free to do whatever you like, whenever you like...is that a reality? Do you have to be in particular places at particular times for anything? If your answer is negative then you are a very fortunate person.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

Note one thing about tarheel's last entry; the word "personal" never appears with "saviour" in the Bible; but a very high percent of American fundamentalists are so tightly programmed that they aren't quite comfortable with anyone who refers to Christ as their saviour without using the complete idiom including "personal". It's hard to blame someone for what has been instilled rigidly from childhood. Tarheel, I'll see you on the other side some day, and we'll rejoice in the presence of God together. You'll just be a little embarassed to see how many of the rest of us are there too.

'

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:24 PM

Matthew 24:23...

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM

I've taken the time ro read the Bible and some commentary on it, and I still do sometimes. I even went through a confirmation class a long time ago, and my uncle Newt was an Assembly of God preacher. How's them credentials? And I forgot -- I'm also an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church.

I found out some things about the churches' wonderful plan for my life and salvation, and nothing much about God's.

What appeals to me most is what they call philosophical Taoism. I think. What Lao Tzu said, anyway. Basically, that you can spit farther down- than up- wind, and keep your face cleaner. I'm not sure if it's a religion, but it's ok.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

Correction: *presumptuous*

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:00 PM

I won't speak for the rest of the people in the world, Georgiansilver. That would be presumptious. I can tell you that my own life is anything but ordered.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:58 PM

Who are you speaking for then please....when you quote "The rest of us".....??????
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

OOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh. So are you saying that people don't live ordered lives Carol???? that they live for the minute in hand...or are you speaking for you???

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:52 PM

People lead such ordered lives in general that they cannot find the time to study anything.

This is a very presumptious thing to say. You know nothing about most of the people in this forum and, indeed, about most of the people in the world. You are entitled to speak for yourself, but that is all. The rest of us will speak for ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:48 PM

How do you reach that conclusion Carol? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

I think you presume a lot, Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:45 PM

I do apologise if that's how it came across but who is prepared to spend the time these days on anything other than their own following? People lead such ordered lives in general that they cannot find the time to study anything.Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

Rersearch and study will teach you all you really need to know but are you prepared to do it....to spend some of your valuable time studying it??? I think not!!!!!

Did you intend to come across as being very condescending, self-righteous, and preachy in this post, Georgiansilver?

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:30 PM

and one more thing, "God" is not a real estate agent. any claim to land or territory based on what was allocated by a "God" is the biggest load of tripe thats ever been passed of as holy word from on high.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM

Forgive me for putting my "two penneth" as us Brits say, in here but God does have a simple plan for salvation of all his children.......even those who don't know him yet!!!! How many of you have taken the time to find out what he has planned??? Try now! Rersearch and study will teach you all you really need to know but are you prepared to do it....to spend some of your valuable time studying it??? I think not!!!!!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:06 PM

attetion: this is not a PASTE!...oh well,i got you attention,didn't i?it just blows my mind to read the answers in here to my question about ,what do you believe ?if i had given those reasons for not accepting christ as my personal savior,to my parents,they would have had me shot at sunrise or run out of town "tarred and feathered" for sure! anyway,it was an interesting thread!i learned a lot about all of you (that i had suspected anyway)!it just confirmed my suspicions!
so........thanks for the answers and i still think many of you need to "get a life"...get out in the real world and find out how life really works!....regards,tarheel

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM

And yet I have heard it said recently by spokesmen for the "War on Terror" that torture is justifiable in certain cases...when it is used on terrorists to gain vital information!

My, my. Sounds like how the Spanish Inquisition used to justify its bloody practices, doesn't it? Beware of such scoundrels posing as the protectors of humanity. They protect nothing but their own turf.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:57 PM

frogprince, that's where I stand also. The defining moment for me came when it occurred to me that mankind has what seems to be an inborn understanding that torture is an evil thing. Why then would mankind's creator indulge in such an evil? Extinguishment I can understand, torture never.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:52 PM

For quite a bit of my life, I was a fundamentalist. Then, by degrees, I began to reconsider some of the implications. I still believe that we are all created in the image of God. But, by fundamentalist tenets, God created us knowing that we would all be imperfect, and that, by "His" very nature, "He" would be forced to condemn us to eternal Hell for the least imperfection. Granted, because "God so loved the world", he gave us an out, by allowing a perfect person to face the death penalty in our place. But if you are raised in a non-christian faith, and fail to renounce your background and convert, or have the misfortune of not hearing the Gospel presented in a convincing way, you are way out of luck, for all eternity. No human society, however barbaric, has demanded the death penalty for absolutely every human imperfection, or because of the imperfection of one's forbears. Jesus (for one)taught us the great value of simple forgiveness among men; how have we ever conceived of God as being totally unable to forgive the children he loves, without having
to put someone to a bloody death in order to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM

Two bears says: "I live by the one HUNA commandment "Harm nothing with hatred."

Guess you can kill any ol' sombitch as long as you smile while doing it. Then you have harmed with a smile, not hatred. Nice organization! Is that the same one Hitler used???

guest: Then you don't know anything about it.

I don't harm anything unless I need the plant or animal for food, or some animal or human being doing their best to harm or kill me.

I even catch poisoinous spiders under a glass and release them outside unharmed.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:02 PM

No, Guest, Hitler used hatred in an entirely obvious manner (and so does George Bush and so does Al Queda). It is the inner intention that is crucial in a spiritual sense. If you genuinely live by the credo "Harm nothing with hatred" then you will not be taken in by a leader like Hitler, regardless of whether you are a religious person OR an atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:54 AM

After serving a southern-style ham dinner to my paw in law one night, while caring for him so my maw in law could go on a trip, I asked him how he liked what I had made-- not my usual style of cooking, and I don't like ham myself. Crouched over his plate with his hunched up back and frail, spindly arms, fingers managing to spear the ham and swirl it in the creamed corn, he looked up from under his cowboy hat and said only, "He made a perfect world."

From ham to kosher dogs, and everything in between-- SOME things are obvious all on their own.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:46 AM

If you want to see god, get a kosher hot dog with mustard, relish, onions, pickle, tomato on it.

If you want to see the devil, order a goyisha hot dog with just ketchup on it.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:36 AM

Two bears says: "I live by the one HUNA commandment "Harm nothing with hatred."

Guess you can kill any ol' sombitch as long as you smile while doing it. Then you have harmed with a smile, not hatred. Nice organization! Is that the same one Hitler used???

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:27 AM

The Irish comedian Dave Allen used to close his show by saying ' may your god go with you ' this is a sentiment I can agree with and wish on all you believres.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: MaineDog
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:01 AM

I cannot object to this thread because it is properly labelled, and no one has to read it. I would object if someone disrupted it with personal attacks or profanity, just because they don't agree.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:36 AM

It seems to me that there are a lot of devout believers and holy zealots in this world who want to kill people who do not believe what they believe, I'm an atheist and I wish no harm on anyone.

Eric:

I live by the one HUNA commandment "Harm nothing with hatred", and I am NOT an athiest. ;-)

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:19 AM

It seems to me that there are a lot of devout believers and holy zealots in this world who want to kill people who do not believe what they believe, I'm an atheist and I wish no harm on anyone.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Dewey
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:11 AM

My Friend,

As A fellow brother in Christ please do not great me here as, "MY FRIEND" it comes across as one who thinks himself more enlightened and spiritual, and also has the same horrible rapport with the non-believer as well.

As a christian I have occasionally stated my opinions here as well, but more indirectly, which made them SLIGHTLY more tolerable.
(at least I sincerely hope this was the case. And my fellow mudcatters have my WORD that I will not abuse them with excessive religious profundity)

My apologies to all hear for talking religion to much in the past.

Thick Biblical Verse references, posted in most forums always draw more criticism than acceptance.

A preachy approach becomes a self-centered approach and bores/offends the audience its seeks to reach, while exciting the person only who is delivering the sermon, All others run to avoid having to hear it.

Do not wish to hurt the feelings of this poster, as I am sure he/she is sincere in their convictions and/or since of duty.

In my early days of Christianity I used to Bible thump with the same zeal. Then one day, after seeing all the negativity that resulted from the thumping, I stopped thumping.

Both me and my former "audience" have been much more happy and receptive to my Christianity since.

Dewey (who hopes he has not offended this otherwise very nice christian person)

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:49 AM

When I was a child, I had bad experiences of having christianity shoved down my throat, and of being judged not worthy by lots of do-gooding hypocrites,

Jenny: We should get together and compare notes, and let me show you the 50-75 scars on my arms where good "Christians" burned me with cigarettes as punishment.

I suppose I would describe myself as a pagan. I don't follow any rigid rules, but I feel that we are all connected, and that includes animals plants and rocks too, therefore I try to do no harm, to contribute in positive ways where possible to the wellbeing of others. I also believe my soul is on a journey of discovery,

You should read my website here

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Dewey
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:04 AM

I am a Christian myself, yet to this day there is something about the Tract-pushing style of Christianity that gets my goat.

You can't convince anybody of anything unless their heart is ready. Ususally tract pushing has the opposite effect, it leads people away from Christ instead of toward.

There is a time and a place!

Please don't give me a tract, when I deliver a pizza to your door. I HATE when this happens!

There is something condescending and self-rightous about tract peddlers.

I believe in their sincerity but not their methods, religion is personal, and not contained in the person's execution of alot of miscellaneous Bible quotes to a captive listener who may not be in the mode to hear it, or even tolerate the views.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

Well, Christian or not--tarheel is a bit of a plagarist--Sad when one is not able to find one's own words to praise God's glory--

God's Simple Plan of Salvation

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

By the way, Carol C, Little Hawk and Two Bears put it very well IMO. I wish I could have said it as well as you, Carol.

I'm finding this an interesting thread. I'm glad it wasn't deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:28 PM

I regard it as a meaningless question too, in the context in which it is usually uttered, though of course it is meaningful for the one uttering it. Life does not judge people, people judge people.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Some of you guys must have awfully small screens. It's just over a screenful for me. I don't see what the fuss is all about. I don't happen to believe what tarheel does, so after the first couple of sentences I only skimmed it, then moved on to other posts.

When I was a child, I had bad experiences of having christianity shoved down my throat, and of being judged not worthy by lots of do-gooding hypocrites, particularly in my own family. My brother copped it too, but we both rode it out and are stronger for it.

My brother is happily agnostic but makes a living with his group singing early sacred music in churches and cathedrals all over Europe - he sees no problem with that.

I also am wary of religions which claim to be the only right one. In my opinion, it is this attitude which causes the worst wars and violence on this planet. I have long thought that if hostile aliens were to land here and try and take us over, we would pretty soon learn to stick together - united by a common enemy, so to speak. Unfortunately, it would probably take something like that to make people realise that we are all in this thing called Life together, and that is in our best interest to get along and work for the good of this planet.

I suppose I would describe myself as a pagan. I don't follow any rigid rules, but I feel that we are all connected, and that includes animals plants and rocks too, therefore I try to do no harm, to contribute in positive ways where possible to the wellbeing of others. I also believe my soul is on a journey of discovery, in this life and many others, and that every soul has to find its own path. That is why I would not condemn tarheel or anyone else for putting forward their point of view.

I didn't always feel this generous - it took me a while to get over the bitterness I felt about so-called christians, but I found that once I was able to let people and things just be what they are, life got a lot simpler. The more I let go of control, the more things just seem to work out and come to me - not heaps of money or anything, but friends, happy "coincidences", good times and music, even parking spots :-)

So in answer to the initial question "Are you saved?" - In the context of the person who asked the question, no, I'm not, but in the context of my life as I see it, the question is meaningless. I don't feel any need to be saved. I'm quite happy where I am thank you.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Two_bears
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM

But I'm not a Christian. I simply want a recognition that there are a bunch of good values to have that are agreeable to Christians as well, but were not invented by Christians. Like the ten commandments, as a minor example.

Robomatic: I am not "Christian", and had more than enough of the bible shoved down my throat as a child.

I am a devout pagan.

I believe that, like me, you, tarheel, are a tiny spark of divinity doing your best to make your way through the process of your growth as a spiritual being, and the emergence of your understanding of your true self. I believe your salvation is never in question, but that you may need to believe that it is from time to time in order to learn whatever you wanted or needed to learn from having such experiences and holding such beliefs.

Carol: I agree completely. Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit, and has a spark of divinity in them.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

I have never hidden the fact that I am a Christain and won't now. I do, however, have problems with many Christain churches that I do not feel best represent the teaching of Jesus. Some seem to just skip right over Jesus!?!!...

As for salvation, the word that I do not recall reading in tarheels intial post is the word "faith". Faith is at the centerpiece of anyones spirituality. Without it, beliefs are at the mercy of winds and whims.

As for my own life, I have both a belief and faith that thru Jesus I shall know the Father (God). I have experienced this knowing in my own life. And I love the Father for I have seen His awsome powers in the way he lovingly works in my life...

I can't think of anything that I can add to this thread that I haven't just stated.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:13 PM

7 and a half screenfuls for me!

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, that's the problem with a lot of religions...

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:46 PM

'There are many ways to the top of a mountain'

Having a Christian belief is not an automatic ticket. My problem with Christianity is that it seems to condemn anyone who does not share it's beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: khandu
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:45 PM

I am a Christian who "works out my own salvation with fear & trembling" & who allows others to do (or not do) the same. I discuss my beliefs with anyone who is sincerely interested, & with none who aren't.

ken

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:40 PM

Ever had this experience where you're in a dream and nobody sees you or hears you? You talk to them, but they don't realize you're there at all. They're too busy or else they're deaf and blind. You jump up and down waving your arms but they don't see you. You yell, "Look out! You're gonna drive right off the road!" No reaction whatsoever.

Then you go down the road and come across this temple that a bunch of them put up in your honor, and none of them can see you either! More than that, they go on babbling about all kinds of rules you supposedly laid down a few thousand years ago and the horrible punishments you supposedly doll out to "sinners", and then they go and viciously persecute other people for breaking the rules THEY made up in your name!

It would take almost infinite compassion to be able to put up with this sort of nonsense on a daily basis and still love people.

You'd have to be God to be capable of it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: God's simple plan of salvation...
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

Do you have any reason to believe that when you see evidence of the existance of God, that you will recognize it?

It has been pointed out that people believed that the sun revolved around the earth because that is how it appeared--