BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:50 PM

if so=can you prove it, ie have you seen him?
or if there isnt, can you prove it, ie have you not seen him?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

Yes there is.

If it could be proved one way or the other we wouldn't need faith and that has to be a basic tenet of all religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

I say no there isn't... but one cannot prove a negative...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
-Carl Sagan-

I see no evidence at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM

How do you see something that is within, around, and composing and ecompassing EVERYTHING right to the atomic level, jOhn?

Tell me when you've not seen God. :-) Does a fish see the ocean? Does a bird see the air? Does your eye see the World and your own reflection in the bathroom mirror? If so, you have seen God.

Your problem is, you seem to expect God to appear in a handy, compact, limited form for your entertainment....maybe wearing a crown and wielding a thunderbolt or two. Don't hold your breath waiting around for that kindergarten level image of God to show up. You could wait a long time, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM

jOhn!!!! please stop....we do not need more of these threads..

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:31 PM

You wouldn't know God if She kicked you in the balls, Clinton. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:43 PM

Bill D
"jOhn!!!! please stop....we do not need more of these threads.."

"WE" speak for yourself Bill D and not the rest of Mudcat if you have an issue sort it yourself, keep at it jOhn its a free world, write as you wish.

CH

You are alive, what other clues do you need?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:52 PM

Right on the mark there, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

well said guest!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:19 PM

Of course there is a God. How else can humans explain the inexplicable. Long ago there were many gods because we needed explanations for the sun, the moon, the harvest, the rain, war, love, death, children, craziness, sanity, etc. As science advanced, most of these inexplicables were finally understood and those specific gods were no longer needed so they fell by the wayside. Science still hasn't found explanations for everything, so some people must still have a God to believe in so they don't have to worry about the things they have no answers for.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:23 PM

I'm alive...

That's biology... not god, in my book...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:29 PM

The problem is a matter of interpretation. As Litte Hawk said, if you expect the creator to appear in some sort of god suit, forget it.

God is a creative energy, not an old man with a long beard keeping records of which of his/her creations he/she is going to destroy. There are those who believe that God and nature are the same thing. I don't argue with that.
To look around you at the wonders of this world and say there is no god, is like getting up from a banquet and saying there is no cook.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:29 PM

It isn't that the inexplicables were explained by science, Alaska, so much as that the observable mechanics of the inexplicables were explained. Good poetry and good philosophy will always shed further light on matters of which mere knowledge of the mechanics does not suffice to illuminate. Science tells you what, where, when, and how. Poetry and spirituality tell you why. And that is the most interesting question of all. (and I do not mean "why" in the sense of cause and effect, but in the sense of consciousness and intention).

I say this as a great respecter of both science and spirituality. Science is the highest means of observations using the five senses, and equipment that extends the reach of the five senses. Spirituality is a means of inner experience that goes considerably beyond using the five senses. Science can build you a better vehicle. Spirituality and poetry can build you a better human being. (depending on what kind of spirituality it is...!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:31 PM

God is a wonderful excuse. It's also how some people explain their own goodness. Others, their vileness.

There is no evidence that Mumbo Jumbo is not the one, true, jealous god. Refusing that, I will believe in no other. Lord Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:43 PM

Good for you, Lord Whitehead. I hope your new Mumbo Jumbo church attracts thousands of deluded Mumbo Jumbo aherents as quickly as possible and gets 'em off the streets for at least an hour a week.

It doesn't matter what you call It. Not at all. It matters what you learn from It, and how you apply what you learn. Same goes for science.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: khandu
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:48 PM

He who beholds me has beheld the Father.

ken

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:59 PM

True enough, Khandu.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:01 PM

With all due respect, this stuff has all been run through, and long, long ago, by better minds than we are likely to find here--

Here Thomas Acquinas' fifth proof, from the Summa Theologica, article II Whether the existance of God is Demonstrable:

The fifth proof arises from the ordering of things for we see that some things which lack reason, such as natural bodies, are operated in accordance with a plan. It appears from this that they are operated always or the more frequently in this same way the closer they follow what is the Highest; whence it is clear that they do not arrive at the result by chance but because of a purpose. The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God.

--in other words, order is impossible without intellect, so the fact that there the universe is ordered proves that there is a maker or planner behind it all--

This gem of reasoned thought is the underpinning of modern science, because it reconciled science with the idea of faith--without it, it would have been impossible to study science in Christendom--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:41 PM

I dunno, John. With you starting all these religion threads, I'm really starting to wonder. Are you some sort of undercover evangelist, or something??
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Padre
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:20 PM

Yes
Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:26 PM

Padre-How do you know, ie have your family [parents/grandparents etc] always believed in God, so you do, or God spoke to you, or some other reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

It just depends on how you define God, John. By the by, how DO you define God?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

From what I have heard and seen in my life's experiences, it is very common for those of no faith like Clinton Hammond or John from extremely Dull to have found God very quickly when they are on their deathbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Padre
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

jOhn - it would have done me little good for my family to have believed (they did by the way) since we all have to find Him ourselves. If by 'speaking to me' you mean did I receive a sudden phone call from God one night, (the 20th century version of St. Paul's calling) the answer is no. It was because I majored in biochemistry and came to realize how utterly complex was the web of life. That led me (inexorably, I believe) to faith in God, the ultimate source of that life.

As to how I came to be a priest in the Church, I'll save that for another time.

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

Don't hold your breath in my case MG...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM

well, if you MUST wallow in this over & over, you might as well have some really turgid stuff to play with.

Not enough? ..here's more. ..and more .....oh, yes...another one...math, this time

and I guess that if THOSE don't convince you, this surely will!

(I repeat...we don't NEED more threads on this. There are umpty-leventeen which debate the topic on all levels, from petty prosyletizing to stimulating theories with reasoned responses....but be my guest...uh...I mean, go right ahead.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:58 PM

Obviously, some of us just enjoy the subject... :-)

For me it's simply a way of honing my own thoughts regarding this kind of thing. Besides, it's important to me. People naturally tend to want to discuss things that are important to them.

It's also fun hearing skeptics use exactly the same kind of articulate reasoning I used so confidently myself between the ages of say, 6 and 24 or something like that, when I believed in nothing spiritual (except ghosts...I saw a ghost once...of a CAT, no less!). I was sure puzzled about that incident, cos it did not fit my scientific view of things in the least. I sort of filed it away as "just one of those inexplicable things".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Hmm. There went another one...!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:41 PM

Not not.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:42 PM

Who isn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:56 PM

"Pay no attention to that *** behind the curtain

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 12:00 AM

You will only find out, IF there IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:39 AM

It might be a good idea to define "God."

Way too many people in this country -- this world -- know that power (often in the form of one of its major aspects, money) is God.

clint

(And I don't understand why monotheism is considered a more reasonable and advanced concept than polytheism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:42 AM

The thing about Bush is........ oh... sorry, wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

I know that there is a part of us all that belongs to god or the creator - its called the soul. We are loved, we deserve that love and we are not alone. This is a knowledge that took a long time for me to achieve, no overnight realisation, more like a constant drip. I don't use the words belief or faith because for me its a kind of knowing. I started to read about different religions and how similar the beliefs of the afterlife. The last two years have brought me to this state of knowing. I know I am here for a reason, I just wish I knew what that reason is.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

SHE says of course I exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dewey
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:24 AM

"I think, therefore I am"

Descarte

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:45 AM

"From what I have heard and seen in my life's experiences, it is very common for those of no faith like Clinton Hammond or John from extremely Dull to have found God very quickly when they are on their deathbed."

A good observation, but why personalise it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:36 AM

"I am therefore I think"
PP
God of the Gaps
Paleys Watch
Feminist whit

Yawn Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:56 AM

"I think I think, therefore I think I am."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:09 AM

not

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:27 AM

If ' god ' existed and was as great and good as christians and other believers would have us believe then he is indeed cruel in the extreme. Would a merciful god allow bad people to kill children and babies for political purposes ? and if you trot out the old argument
about him giving us free will I ask you this, why did he let my old man die, a man who never harmed anyone or anything in his life and died in pain leaving a wife and four kids ?
There are no gods.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM

eric the red:

Your arguement is a good one for the idea that there is not one god- but allows for several gods in conflict with each other...

But I have to say that LH's comment is the most significant so far-

"It just depends on how you define God, John. By the by, how DO you define God? "


I think the pharse is that "each of us define God in our own image."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:49 AM

eric, I believe that when we come into this life, we came with certain soul promises. You have heard the saying, no pain no gain? Ok, think of it this way, as you progress through school, each class is a bit harder than the previous one until you attain the top. Ok, we must go through "hell" to gain enlightenment, and all sorts of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune will be visited on us on the way. Each incarnation is tougher than the previous one.

Or, if you prefer, "I saw starving children and I screamed at God. Then I realized that those starving children were God screaming at me"!

Finally, if you prefer, nature is not cruel; nature doesn't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:53 AM

I don't define god, I have been an atheist since my old man died fifty years ago.
Incidently though, I do respect other peoples rights to believe any creed or religion they chose providing it does not affect or encroach on my or other peoples lives.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

Wanna hear God laugh? tell him what you have planned for your life.
I've lost many dear friends and relatives in my life, some died way too young but that doesn't mean there is no God! Just because I don't get my way I'm supposed to believe there is no God? That would require quite an ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: IanC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

So, Eric

If the god we believe in makes it clear that we should be affecting other peoples' lives for the better (for example if they are starving or being murdered in Sudan) then we had better not do anything about it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

NO of course I don't believe that, but that religious zealot Osama Bin Laden does and Irish catholics and protestants have been trying to kill each other for generations, just don't shove your religion down someone else's throat.
I'm an atheist and if I can help someone during my day it has not been wasted, regardless of race creed or religion.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:54 AM

Yes...but It is a absentee Landlord, and we tenants live in the Projects