BS: NON-Partisan political comments

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM

Arne,

YOU:"That Dubya out-and-out lied when he said: "He [Saddam] wouldn't let them [the weapons inspectors] in" and that is why Dubya decided to invade."


David S. Broder " The first -- and to my mind weakest -- instance is the claim that Bush took the nation to war on the basis of false intelligence about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. But there is no clear evidence as yet that Bush willfully concocted or knowingly distorted the intelligence he received about Saddam Hussein's military programs. Interpretations of that intelligence varied within the government, but the Clinton administration, of which Gore was an important part, came to the same conclusions that Bush did -- and so did other governments in the Western alliance."

We have gone around about the weapons inspectors- And the UN report says that Saddam was in "substantial non-compliance" at the time of the deadline. IF Saddam decided to let inspectors in AFTER Bush had mobilized troops on his borders, that hardly supports YOUR contention of why Bush invaded.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:39 AM

Beardedbruce, youve shown in your last thread a prime difficulty in having a non-partisan discussion. Is that possible when there exists such a thing as "the other side"?

As far as I can see those two thoughts ("non-partisan" and "the other side" (I wrote that aiming for crystal clarity)) are irreconcilable (at least until both sides have been to the guru I referred to 28 Nov. last)

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM

"You will never win a battle unless you can understand how the other side is thinking. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but you do need to understand what motivates them."


Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Arne
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 05:48 PM

BeardedBruce:

Except that I have brought out those facts, many times, and you insist on attacking me rather than discussing them.

I suspect you're mistaking a disagreement with what you're claiming for an attack on you. But do feel free to point to (or link to) what you think I so rudely ignored....

But before we begin, is Dubya one of the most blatant liars we have seen in high public place? C'mon, let's start with some honesty here. Otherwise, we can hardly start talking about your pet talking points, eh?

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 04:00 PM

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.-- Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

Hamlet

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:53 PM

Arne,

"Feel free to trot them out, and maybe we can have a discussion."

Except that I have brought out those facts, many times, and you insist on attacking me rather than discussing them. I await YOUR refutation of the multiple facts I have presented, then we can discuss you opinions about Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Arne
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:48 PM

Bearded Bruce:

Agreed, which is why I can't have conversations with you, or SRS, or Bobert.... You ( all) refuse to discuss FACTS.

Sorry if I seem reluctant to discuss "facts" you seem to think are self-evident. Feel free to trot them out, and maybe we can have a discussion.

In the meanwhile, care to either agree with or refute:

That Dubya out-and-out lied when he said: "He [Saddam] wouldn't let them [the weapons inspectors] in" and that is why Dubya decided to invade.

That Dubya out-and-out lied when he said repeatedly that wiretaps need a warrant and/or judicial approval and that we weren't wiretapping without a warrant (that is, he kept saying this until his secret wiretaps became public knowledge).

You may argue about the impetus behind these statements, or their "justification" under the circumstances, but isn't it a little disingenuous to refuse to admit that Dubya's been lying to us???? Once we extablish that predicate, maybe we can discuss other statements of the maladministration in the proper context....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:25 PM

sorry if I did not make it clear that was a quote from ejsant



"As long as they refuse to admit even elemental facts as a basis for discussion"

Agreed, which is why I can't have conversations with you, or SRS, or Bobert.... You ( all) refuse to discuss FACTS.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Arne
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 01:50 PM

Martin:

the FBI is interested in you.

Oh, really? Why, that makes us even. I'm interested in the FBI too.

But thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

Arne

the FBI is interested in you.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Arne
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 12:36 PM

BeardedBruce:

I have found on my nearly fifty year walk, mostly by my own actions, that the arguing of ones position by employing the technique of abuse and denigration of one's adversary may indeed produce the desired results but it rarely, if ever, produces acceptance of the alternate view.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

At some point, Bruce, you have to accept the fact that the folks you're talking to may be Limbaughesque DittoBots, and are impervious to either reason or facts. Normal discourse then becomes an exercise in micturation, and it's not going to hurt your case too much by engaging in "abuse and denigration".

Find me someone willing to acknowledge the fact that Dubya's a serial liar (a demonstrable fact), and there may be hope for a real discussion. As long as they refuse to admit even elemental facts as a basis for discussion, and I don't think that one may hope for more than playground "discussion".

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:48 PM

ejsant

I have found on my nearly fifty year walk, mostly by my own actions, that the arguing of ones position by employing the technique of abuse and denigration of one's adversary may indeed produce the desired results but it rarely, if ever, produces acceptance of the alternate view. This often times, if not all times, results in animosities being harbored and if we are ever really to live in peace and harmony with one another it is our responsibility to avoid actions that create or sustain animosities between ourselves."

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: GUEST,IVOR
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:03 PM

I've just been thru this thread.

Non-Partisan political comment might be a contradiction in terms.

Aritotle (I think) said "Man(meaning 'people',people)Man is a political animal".

I think that's probably because we cannot, a priori, tell the whole truth, we have to select, because of our limitations, and we're going to select according to one bias or another.

"Facts" is another hot potato - see E.H.Carr's "What is History"; essentially 'facts' don't just lie there - we select them.
My choice of route thru is to become more aware, and to nurture increasing awareness in others.

We're also lumbered with a vast knowledge deficit. People owe a lot of their opinions to the varying depths of their ignorance. I include myself in that.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: GUEST,ART THIEME
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM

(I put my name in caps like JOHN HANCOCK signing the Declaration Of Independance!)

When people prove to be truly self-serving, as seems to be the political reality quite often, I will side with the more sharing and compassionate side every time. (No party designated!!)

ART THIEME

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 06:06 PM

"That's why it's so pointless getting angry here - whether they like it or not, the people with whom we are arguing are actually assisting us. Why on earth should we be angry with people who are helping us, even whebn that may not be their intention? Do people doing weight training get angry at the weights they exert themselves to lift? "


About the only reason that the arguments here ARE worthwhile- since I have YET to see EITHER side actually discuss the FACTS without getting into ad hominum arguments

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:54 PM

from GUEST,DB

"Basically, any group which claims to have exclusive access to 'the truth' is potentially dangerous and should be resisted."

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:35 AM

Jingoistic approaches to smearing the ideas of others is de rigurer for ... those who can't win an argument on its merits. Best to not discuss the facts or issues at all, just smear your opponents.


From SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 10:15 AM

"And keep your communications aboveboard, complete, and straight with yourself."



from Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:17 AM

from DougR,

"I don't believe that I ever questioned the right of anyone to think differently from the way I do, nor do I think I implied that because they did not agree with my POV the were inferior to me or less intelligent. We just thought differently. "

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM

and from Peace:

"I don't really care what people choose to believe. That has never been an issue with me in real or cyber life. However, it's the suppression of the right to think that grates my petunias. From either 'side' of this issue."

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:32 PM

Not political, (I think) but near and dear to my heart. Those who know me will understand.

old rule: "The ony way to be sure of having enough, is to always have a little bit too much."

Thanks, BillD!

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:01 PM

Yes, but having gathered around real fireplaces with friends in the past, I worry about the effects of the virtual one. It's too easy, and it's always there.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

Hey, Little Hawk, don't beat yourself up.

I have a brother who has lived in Bali off and on for a couple of decades. He speaks Balinese and has fitted in with the local people. A couple of decades ago i was talking to him about TV and its insidious effects on my kids. He pointed out that in Bali, people talked about everything at the end of the day, all sorts of things that were going on, including scandals, adultery etc, and all the family, including the young children, sat around and listened. He figured that TV was just another way of getting the same info to the kids!

Where is our fireplace to gather round? It is in our home, in our friend's homes, and in our mudcat friends homes.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

Oh. That's why this thread is going again. I wondered...

Going through it now, I am stunned by the amount of my life that I have squandered typing posts on this forum! When I finally depart this vale of tears, the Angels will say...

"Sad! He coulda done so much. He coulda been a contendah! But no, he spent all his time talking on an Internet forum. Sad!"

If I ever break this addiction, people, you will wonder where I went...

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:15 PM

From LH

"To denigrate anyone merely on the basis of them being a "liberal" or a "conservative" is downright stupid. It's a knee-jerk reaction, based on some painful memory one is carrying in one's emotional body, but not on the powers of reason. There are good people and not so good people in either camp...always have been, always will be. There are people who don't necessarily belong exclusively TO either camp. You don't determine people's worth by the color of the uniform they are wearing or by the one-word hate label you made up for them in your mind...you get to know them as individuals, because every individual is unique.

Unless, of course, you are a fanatic. Then only the hate label matters, right?

This removes the responsibility for actual thought or observation on the part of said fanatic, and also allows him/her to kill others guiltlessly. That's why young soldiers are trained to hate "the enemy" (someone who is probably just like themselves in nearly every way that truly matters).

Dictators and rogue presidents do NOT want you to know these things. If you did, you wouldn't be so willing to go out and kill people for them.

I am proud and happy to be a Leftist...but...I am not supportive of other Leftists when they choose to routinely demonize everyone who does not share their particular political viewpoint. In so doing, they will make the World worse, not better. There are destructive, vicious forces on both the Left and the Right. Always have been, probably always will be. Stalin was on the left. So too the NKVD. The Chinese bigwigs who slaughtered people at Tiananmen Square were on the left. Pol Pot was on the Left. They all equate to Hitler in my mind...and he was on the Right.

Righteousness is not guaranteed by your outer political label! You can belong to any political label whatsoever, and still be a noble person who helps humanity...or a totally destructive individual who does just the opposite. "

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM

"However, when people follow blindly after only half the story, they are little better than the folks they listen to who gave only half the story."


from Peace

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

from Don Firth:

"Actually, ignorance is not the problem. We're all ignorant of something. The problem is stupidity. Stupidity is when a person becomes aware that he or she is ignorant of something and refuses to to repair the omission in their knowledge, often because it might conflict with something they want to cling to. Or knowing that they are ignorant, but going ahead and acting anyway. "

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM

and from KateG

"But please, let's not demonize liberals, or conservatives for that matter. ALL solutions have unintended consequences, and one of the most valuable contributions of the "loyal opposition" is to help bring them to light before it is too late."

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 07:33 PM

from Amos:


"...He has exercised his God-given right to have an opinion and to voice it. In that respect he is no disgrace to anyone. THe merit of his conclusions may be in question, but there is no disgrace in having opinions as such.

I feel his reasoning has flaws in it, and he feels the same way about mine, but how can you dare try to embarrass him into not communicating?"

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 10:04 PM

The Basic Rubbish of Stupidity
From: freda underhill - PM
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM

.. Things like


* labelling people if they say something that doesn't fit your world view (eg, "left"or "right", "liberal" or "conservative")

* assuming people to have a pre packaged view within a particular set of dogma that covers a response to every issue

* declaring others are "wrong" and you are "right"; and spending an obsessive amount of time proving your "rightness",

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:53 PM

Excerpted from Greater Democracy:

Citizens are NOT consumers of Democracy. The FCC's last two chairmen
have referred to we the people as being mere one dimensional
consumers. For a recent example, see David Isenberg's comments on FCC
Chairman Martin's new The Four Internet Freedoms.

The essential and fundamental objection to the Martin's suggestion
that we are not citizens, but only mere consumers, is that it is
totally anti-democratic and contrary to the spirit of the America's
founding principles.

Democracy is a process of continuous creation by citizens practicing
self government. It is not a product from a 3rd party to be consumed.
Thus, to relegate citizens to the status of simple consumers, is to
attack the very foundation of our experiment in democracy. Democracy
can only be kept alive if we citizens are engaged daily in its
production.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:59 PM

"You seem incapable of accepting that people disagree with you. You think that the reason people don't come over to your point of view is that they have some sort of "mindset" against it--You are wrong in that view. Reasonable and intelligent people can differ on things and usually do--the fact that you don't understand that makes it look like you are not a reasonable or intelligent person-- "


from M Ted

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

"The truth!?? The truth!?? I can't handle the truth!!!"
                                                         —Red Green

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:41 PM

from akenaton



Akhenaton....1350 BC.

Why seekest thou revenge, O man!
With what purpose is it that thou pursuest it, thinkest thou to pain thine adversary by it?
Know that thou thyself feelest its greatest torments.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:25 PM

all should be taking this in[regardless of what you want to belive,either way] with a bucket of salt.

jpk

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:35 PM

All politics is apple sauce.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM

If there is to be any progress made, we must look VERY honestly at exactly what seems to be happening.

BillD

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

Except that there aren't just two basic ideas pushing modern politics. Especially when you take into consideration politics in the larger, global sense. The labels are just convenient ways for people to pidgeon-hole each other so they can avoid engaging in any real, meaningful discussion, or to come up with any new solutions to problems. Labels are for lazy thinkers.


From CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 10:11 PM

When we take upon ourselves to be as vindictive as our foes, we have lost...


From bobert

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:08 AM

It seems that those who want power the most are those least suitable to wield it.

from LTS

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:33 PM

From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad 24 Jun 05 - 11:30 PM

"Didn't Thomas Jefferson propose that ? I seem to recall that he thought it was a good idea to find a qualified person for the job of President and make them take the office. He was suspicious of anyone who would actually seek out the position.

So am I. We should all be wary of anyone who wants to be the president. "

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM

I seem to be seeing a number of threads here that are being criticized for presenting songs that were sung by Germans in WWII.

If we are going to require that only the songs of the winning side in a conflict are studied, perhaps we should remove a number of traditional songs from the DT, as they were sung by the losing side.

I do not have to support the sentiments of a song to be able to appreciate that it meant something to those who sang it, and possibly like the tune or structure.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:04 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:12 PM

and from Amos- though I am sure he does not see the humor in it...



"It is the wild generalizations of sardonic hate -- which are untruthful, adversarial and essentially without any referent by which they could be called truth -- that annoys me. "

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 05 - 07:15 PM

not political, but it could be...


from brucie

"You are free to think my views are stupid, idiotic, etc. That's cool with me. You are more than entitled to hold the views you have. And argue them, and restate them. That's one of the things I like about the place."

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:42 PM

and from the Unitarian Jihad...

Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true.
Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:04 PM

and a true gem, from Little Hawk.


Simply approach everyone with a generous reserve of goodwill, no matter who they are, even if you don't have a clue what the heck they stand for, and even if they oppose everything you think you stand for...and take some time to give them the benefit of the doubt. You might learn something new. And if they are really trying to upset you...why give them that sort of power by getting upset? What good does it do you?

Obviously, what they are up to makes sense to them, otherwise they wouldn't do it, would they? They are you, in another skin, through another set of perceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:43 PM

What I am against is quotas. I am against hard quotas, quotas they basically delineate based upon whatever. However they delineate, quotas, I think, vulcanize society. So I don't know how that fits into what everybody else is saying, their relative positions, but that's my position.

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:32 PM

ok, third try... let me hand edit...


You've got people so crammed into roles and you ASSUME they'll follow your little script that it makes you blind and deaf to what they actually DO say. You wind up just looking stupider than your own role calls for when the person doesn't behave in the expected manner.