BS: Do human beings really exist?

Subject: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:30 PM

Yes, do human beings really exist...or are they just a figment of my Divine imagination? A temporary blip in the eternal stream of consciousness that I am? Mere phantasms of space/time, playing out their imaginary and fleeting roles in the worlds of illusion?

Discuss...

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:33 PM

it's useless to discuss, since all discussions are only manifestions of YOUR exhalted Divine imagination.....sorta like a Solipist gazing at his own navel...

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:38 PM

define human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

That is an interesting viewpoint, Bill D. You seem to be leaning toward a dismissal of the validity of your own human existence. I'm not sure why you would choose to disempower yourself in that manner, but it's one way of looking at it.

Would anyone care to propose alternatives to what Bill D has suggested?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:45 PM

Human beings certainly do exist as the real God knows. Some of them assume what can be concieved as pathetic disguises, some even calling themselves Guest God. People who are in this way deluded are often very inadequate and have to make themselves appear something they are not or ever could be.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

Ah. "Human being". Very well. We can assume, merely for the purposes of this discussion that the term "human being" indicates a group of intelligent or at least semi-intelligent hominids of the genus Homo Sapiens on the little planet you call Earth. Those hominids would appear to be of several different races or colors, but they share certain basic characteristics. They are bipeds. They are more advanced than anthropoid apes. They form what are termed civilizations, usually making use of the written word (but not always) and the spoken word. They usually wear some sort of clothing and use a variety of manufactured tools.

Is this clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:50 PM

Understand, I have no personal stake in this. I demand nothing. I am open to all opinions, and I object to none. Carry on. I eagerly await your expressions of unique individuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

Someone in another thread said there were 1.6 human beings, so they must be quite rare.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

That person clearly has a very narrow concept of the term "human being".

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:05 PM

So you're open to any opinion, huh, "God"? That's good, cos I have a strong opinion to lay on you, Bub. Human beings ain't more advanced than anthropoid apes! Apes have proven over and over again that we are at least as advanced as humans and probably more so. Most of the humans I know come up short on the chimp scale of intelligence and efficiency, lemme tell ya. A buncha self-important bozos, I call 'em. And prejudiced! They think the world is their oyster. I'm here ta tell you it ain't.

Chongo Chimp

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:08 PM

well, then...here is a wide concept of a human being

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:17 PM

Do solipsists really have navels?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:18 PM

That is a fascinating sculpture, Bill D, and well done too. Thank you for contributing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:21 PM

Yet another guest hiding behind a pseudonym. It's time to out these imposters. This one is really Brahman. So there. Go back to sleep, guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:24 PM

"it's useless to discuss, since all discussions are only manifestions of YOUR exhalted Divine imagination.....sorta like a Solipist gazing at his own navel..."

"Would anyone care to propose alternatives to what Bill D has suggested?"

". . . at his own belly button..."

Yo, God, is this what you had in mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM

Brahman? I thought it might be a librarian in Schenectady with a silly sens of humor?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:26 PM

There are no librarians in Schenectady. I have this on good authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:31 PM

Chongo, I like chimps, and I also like bonobos. I really would like to be a bonobo when I grow up. Maybe that gets me in trouble with you, but ... ;)

Oh, and my dysnumeric tendencies got me in trouble ... that number of humans was actually 6.1.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

Human solipsists have navels. There is no doubt about that. As CarolC has cleverly inferred, this confronts the solipsist with direct evidence of the fact that he once had a mother...and by implication a father. This despite the fact that his view of reality is that only the self (his own self) can be known to exist! (Or her own self, in the case of a female solipsist.) The navel is a direct refutation of that false presumption.

The way the solipsist gets around that is by misinterpreting the evidence provided by the navel or simply ignoring it. This is similar to the way people in religions willfully misinterpret or ignore various information to suit their basic assumptions about reality. It is also true of many atheists and non-religious people, although their use of the same deceptive strategem is usually more subtle than in the case of the religionist.

Chongo - Well, I am pleased to see that you are proud of your species, and not afraid to take a stand in its defence. I will readily agree that apes are far less destructive to the natural environment than humans, and that indicates that they are more in tune with Divine Plan in a number of ways than their human brothers and sisters are. However, don't forget that it took a human mind to erect the Empire State Building! King Kong merely climbed up to the top of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:34 PM

"This one is really Brahman."

Like in lotsa bull?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM

Bonobos are okay. I've met bonobos I wouldn't mind having a drink with.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM

True about apes being less destructive; however, there ain't 6,000,000,000 of them either.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:42 PM

brucie...that is a very good point. If there were 6,000,000,000 apes on the planet Earth at this moment, it would cause quite a problem. To put it mildly: It would not be "more fun than a barrel of monkeys"!

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:44 PM

Like if this is really God, I hope "Yo, God" is OK with you when I pray.

The ape thing: neat idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:47 PM

I lay down no rules or restrictions about that, brucie. "Yo, God!" is perfectly all right. It's the inner intention that counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,archie the cockroach
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:47 PM

well suppose there were as many humans as there are cockroaches and we will be around long after you humans are gone so you had better beware.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:51 PM

Archie, you may well be right about that. Cockroaches are hardy and resourceful creatures. Certainly if humans continue on their present wasteful course they will soon put themselves in a very bad spot and possibly consign the future of the planet to your race instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:38 AM

Brahman is the god who, sleeping, dreams the universe. Didn't you go to Sunday School?

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,Goddess
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:52 AM

I gave birth to you all, yes, even you, God, in a moment of loneliness. I listen to the stars singing every night, and dance withthe sunlight every day.

Pride of Erin, anyone?





Mother of all Dimensions

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:08 AM

So if the 6.1 humans invented God and Goddess, and God and Goddess created them, which thing happened first, or did they both happen at the same timeless point?

T

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:20 AM

These things do not occur at all within time as we know it...except for the part about humans creating gods and godesses. So timeless is your answer. To put it another way, it all occurs simultaneously...but then it manifests time & space Universes in which things unfold within what certainly appears to be a timeframe...if you exist as a separated consciousness that observes things from its own reference point(s) as they move in relation to it.

Since God is omnipresent (being everywhere and everywhen) there is no time or separation from anything at that level of consciousness. It's already everywhere. It's already within every moment. A being that still believes implicitly in its own separateness cannot perceive that state. It can talk about it, though, if it chooses to, in terms of discussing a theory. But that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:12 AM

Oh darn. Well, it's fun to talk about it anyway. but sometimes I could swear I experienced it when I listened to good music. :)

T

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,shycat
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:29 AM

..you got it, LH!

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: GUEST,gillian nerdsworth
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:37 AM

because our reality is a drab, limited version of what it could be if we truly perceived life in all its vibrancy, we do not truly exist, but merely experience a diluted version of reality. that's all we can cope with.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:43 AM

To me, it doesn't seem very drab at all. :)

T

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:52 AM

"Ooooook?"

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:40 AM

Which God are you? The God of love and peace and all that happy stuff or the God that smites amongst much weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth?

It is important to know these things before I answer (or not as the case may be) :-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:53 AM

Nothing exists unless it is observed, touched or heard, [ possibly smelled ]


eric

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:05 AM

Hang on a minute! YOU don't exist...I do. As a believer in the Godess I can't possibly be talking to you since you don't exist. Pass me over to the Godess please

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:01 AM

Eric, I can't see your brain, I can't hear your brain and I can't touch your brain....I certainly can't smell it!! However I do accept that it is there!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:03 AM

I guess we are all only limited by our own perceptions.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:34 AM

I have a string feeling that only one solipsist need have a navel, but I'm not sure I can make a good case at the moment.

How many solipsists does it take to change a lightbulb? (I don't know the answer, I'm just curious.)

If a human being falls down in the forest and there isn't a tree there to hear it, how does he (the hb) justify his/her belief that s/he's in a forest?

Is there no end to this inanity?

Steve
PS Yes: it stops here.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:38 AM

Not a string feeling (except I could tie myself in knots with this). A strong feeling.

God, do you have a navel? If Adam did, then you must, obviously; but if you do, what's it for? And don't give me that stuff about holding the salt when you're in bed: if you're omnipotent you don't need to do that.

Steve
PS It didn't stop there, did it? Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:45 AM

a little something about nothing

more about 'being' in general

the whole thing gets REALLY complicated after awhile, God...why don't you send us a clear explanation about how you really started this mess....

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:57 AM

'Why is there something instead of nothing?' .. good question, Bill. A not-really-an-answer answer: if there was nothing, we wouldn't be able to ask the question; the question would have no meaning: indeed, it would not be able to have a meaning. This the the Anthropic Principle, sort of.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM

Well, it depends, for starters on some definitions. For example, "something" can mean 'anything existing' in which case the question is absurd by being redundant. More often, "something" means "an object in physical space, or an object in mental representation".

Those who dance through the labyrinths described by Heidegger, and others with serious language complexes, don't advance the subject when they don't arrive at clear conclusions that can be clearly communicated.

It is possible that the real nature of awareness is actually a nothingness in terms of space, time, or other thingy structures. This makes an excellent chase for those who insist on finding it in the brain, for example.

As far as the question of the thread goes, who wants to know?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

well, as the one article says, the whole point is that although "why is there something.." IS the primary question, but since we cannot answer it, it is the very process of questioning that becomes important, and how we do THAT that defines our relationship to out being....

I, personally, kinda like it that way....others seem to have a need to HAVE an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM

Oh, so it's not a question, but a carousel, then? Makes sense to me. BEtter than a rollercoaster, I guess.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do human beings really exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM

"...clear conclusions that can be clearly communicated."....oh, my, Amos, I have seen the results when someone says "I have a clear conclusion, and here is my clear statement of it.....now everyone pay attention!"

I prefer to dance with Heidegger and not get trampled in the fray as several others with "clear conclusions" meet in dark alleys.