BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?

Subject: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Chris Green
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM

I'm 27. For the first time I'm seriously considering not voting at the next election. The reason is that none of the main political parties actually seem to stand for anything. I'd much rather be in a situation where a party said "If you vote for us we'll spend the next five years doing this that and the other because we believe that this will then achieve such and such" rather than saying vote for us 'cos we're look nice and all the newspapers like us too.

I'm not quite in command of what I'm trying to articulate here other than that I feel a profound sense of disillusionment with the political process and also with the cardboard cutouts that masquerade as our representatives. I may sound like a right whingeing git but I cannot see that voting for any political party is going to alter my life or the lives of those I know one iota. Has it ever been any different or is this the way it's always been?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:23 PM

I suspose we vote in the hope that things will change. But if we don't vote we can be sure they won't?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Chris Green
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM

My point is though that there is no-one worth my vote at the moment. I can't in all conscience vote for Labour and I'm buggered if I'll vote Conservative. Lib Dem is a wasted vote as a) they'll never get in b) even if they do get in, they're nowhere near ready to govern the country and c) even if they become the opposition, I can't see that they'll provide any more of an opposition that the Tories have!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 09:41 PM

Wow. I had no idea that the UK is in the same difficulties that the US is!

Duelingbouzikis: "I can't in all conscience vote for Labour (US: Democrat) and I'm buggered if I'll vote Conservative (US: Republican). Lib Dem (US: Ralph Nader) is a wasted vote as a) they'll never get in b) even if they do get in, they're nowhere near ready to govern the country and c) even if they become the opposition, I can't see that they'll provide any more of an opposition that the Tories have!" Good luck to us all.

I listened to Howard Dean (US: failed candidacy)last night- I do wish that John Kerry (US: presidential candidate) could summon the eloquence and passion and body language that Dean has!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 10:03 PM

For more useful info on this very problem, consult this other thread:

non-partisan approaches to politics

The reason politicians appear vacuous is this: They are tied to political parties which are the servants of major lobbyists (not of the public). They do not serve the public, yet they must appear to want to serve the public. This calls for a phony act that must be quite difficult for most people to pull off, unless they are natural born snake-oil salesmen. Accordingly, most of them sound vacuous. They are attempting to walk the narrow line that wanders between half-truths and outright lies. They are trying desperately to sound sincere, while serving a master who is utterly without scruples and only concerned about one thing: Victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 04:43 AM

The political parties a beholden to big business, and to a decreasing amount on trade unions, for the finance to keep them going. Therefore the party leaders dare not upset them by passing legislation they don't like. [See Bernie Ecclestone] Candidates must agree to abide by the party manifest, or they cannot stand [see Ken Livingston / Dick Taverne] They must also obey the instructions of the party whips when it comes to voting in the house. [ see Dennis Skinner] If you do as you're told as an MP, lick the 'boots' of the party grandees, you may get a post in the cabinet.
Then just as you begin to get the hang of it all, along comes another election, and you've got to start being nice to the people who elected you in the first place, remember them! Oh what a nuisance, life as a career toady would be so much easier if they could dispense with those pesky voters.
I vote Scottish nationalist, which I'm afraid is another wasted vote, but I'm damned if I'd vote for any of the rest. I might consider voting for a party with a decent social agenda, if we had one!

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:13 AM

it's a lie - they are not vacuous - they are just plain simple folk like the rest of us except they are also inveterate liars

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:25 AM

(As guest 'cause I can't get my cookie to reset)


A brief look at history would indicate that change only comes by agitation from the bottom up. The origins of the Labour Party (believe it or not) lie in grass roots organisation and civil disobedience. Women gained the vote through the suffragette movement. Some might even argue that America pulled out of Vietnam because popular opinion at home moved against it. I suspect there'll be plenty of people here on Mudcat who took part in the protest movement at the time.   

DB you say: "I feel a profound sense of disillusionment with the political process and also with the cardboard cut outs that masquerade as our representatives. I may sound like a right whingeing git but I cannot see that voting for any political party is going to alter my life or the lives of those I know one iota. Has it ever been any different or is this the way it's always been?"   

Good. This seems to me to be an excellent starting point for change. I'd also say you are absolutely right about politicians and you are definitely not a whinging git. And yes it has always been that way. But disillusionment is the catalyst of change. Politicians are vacuous because they are not being challenged enough. Remember cardboard cut outs are totally spineless and have principles that can be bought and sold. They should be rattled and shaken at every available opportunity. Change takes time and people who firmly believe "It doesn't have to be like this", have a vision of their own, and are prepared to act on it.      

These people are variously branded as mad, dangerous, criminals, a "threat to the rule of law", sometimes they are terrorists, revolutionaries, dissidents or traitors. They'll be vilified, pilloried in the media, imprisoned and sometimes shot at. But the thing you can be most sure of is when their new idea takes hold of the public imagination, you will see established politicians of all parties falling over themselves to claim that it was their idea in the first place, and they've been suggesting it for years.   

If you feel you can't vote, then please, please do go out and demonstrate. Personally I don't believe there is any such thing as a wasted vote. It was a hard one right and many gave their lives in the struggle for it, precisely because they wanted change. Please for God's sake use it; tactically as a 'protest' vote if necessary. Remember what happened to Michael Portillo.   On no account do nothing. Apathy is de-facto a vote for things to remain as they are, and for politicians to remain vacuous. The life blood of democracy are bright, articulate, loud-mouthed trouble makers. We used to have a lot of those, and there's always room for another one. Nothing will ever change if established politicians are allowed to set the agenda.   

There appear to be a lot of people of your age who share your view of the current political process. We hear a lot about our politicians being concerned about this voter apathy. In this case they are right. Personally I can hardly wait for the young firebrand that's going to galvanise all this apathy and well and truly upset the applecart.   The sooner the better.

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

To actually answer your query, "Why are politicians so VACUOUS?"----------It is, obviously because they SUCK. Right?

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 03:31 PM

So, let's go back to Kings and Queens and give them back total authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 03:41 PM

The notion of one person, one vote is good. However, look at the relative merits of the votes coming from people like Claymore, Bobert, BillD, etc.

They are voting for different 'parties' and each appears to have given very serious and complete though to their decision. IMO, they are good votes that will be delivered by good voters, despite the fact they 'disagree' with each other.

Then we have the dumb votes: I am voting this way because my daddy voted this way and by gawd, so will I and nothin' will change my mind. It's a poor reflection on democracy when people with fancy hairdos on the news can tell the electorate what their choice should be. But that is what it's comin' to.

If I may, duellingbouzoukis, please go to the polling station and at least mar your ballot. The day we can't at least do that is the day the 'music' will die.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Micca
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 03:47 PM

I have a simple Foolproof method of deciding my vote in any election, I examine the claims and promises of the candidates mostly their is not anyone I want to vote FOR but their is ALWAYS someone or some party I want to vote AGAINST. I find that I have managed ok over the last 20+ years in this way by voting for the people I object to least.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 04:01 PM

Preferential Voting in Australia
The system of preferential voting is employed in elections for the House of Representatives and all State lower houses in Australia, apart from the Tasmanian House of Assembly and the A.C.T. Legislative Assembly. Preferential voting is used in single-member electorates and requires the winning candidate to secure either an absolute majority (50%+1) of the primary vote or an absolute majority after the distribution of preferences. The main elements of the operation of preferential voting are as follows:

voters are required to place the number "1" against the candidate of their choice, known as their "first preference."

voters are then required to place the numbers "2", "3", etc., against the other candidates listed on the ballot paper in order of preference.

the counting of first preference votes, also known as the "primary vote", takes place first. If no candidate secures an absolute majority of primary votes, then the candidate with the least number of votes is "eliminated" from the count.

the ballot papers of the eliminated candidate are examined and re-allocated amongst the remaining candidates according to the number "2", or "second preference" votes.

if no candidate has yet secured an absolute majority of the vote, then the next candidate with the least number of primary votes is eliminated. This preference allocation continues until there is a candidate with an absolute majority. Where a second preference is expressed for a candidate who has already been eliminated, the voter's third or subsequent preferences are used. Following the full allocation of preferences, it is possible to derive a "two-party-preferred" figure, where the votes are divided between the two main candidates in the election. In Australia, this is usually between the Labor and non-Labor candidates.

The distribution of preferences takes place in every electoral division in federal elections so that national two-party-preferred figures can be calculated.

Advantages of the Preferential System

It ensures that only a candidate with the support of an absolute majority of the electorate can win, eliminating the possibility of minority winners. Put another way, the winning candidate is the "most preferred" or "least disliked" candidate.

It ensures that voters can support minor parties and independent candidates, knowing that their preferences may be used to decide the winner. Thus, votes for minor parties and independents are not wasted.

It allows parties of like-minded philosophies or policies to "exchange preferences" in order to assist each other to win.

It promotes a strong two-party system, ensuring stability in the parliamentary process.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: ddw
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 04:04 PM

Maybe politicians are vacuous because if they had any sense at all the general public would think they were too weird to vote for.

In the early 1830s Alexis de Tocqueville noted that democracy is the form of government designed to reduce leadership to the lowest common denominator. Looks like he was right, eh?

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 07:28 PM

Im a professional politician and these generalisations are just that generalisations, one could go far and say actually the comments are quite biggotted but then us folkies wouldn't be likr that would we?Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:11 PM

Because they are Politicans and will probably have to cover their asses in the future. Says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:10 AM

Because they mostly don't care where they go as long as they get to drive.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:04 AM

The Australian system sounds very fair but complicated to administer Freda. How then do you explain the lovely Pauline?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:40 AM

They are vacous because that is what we really want them to be...we just resent it the obviousness of our own reflection.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 06:18 PM

Cllr - I'm only going on my own experience. The only politician I ever came across who struck me as a man of principle was my former local MP Dave Nellist (although I don't necessarily agree with everything he says). No personal slur intended and I hope there are those in political life who have principles and fight for them - I just haven't met any of them. My current MP, by the way, is Geoffrey Robinson. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

the nice thing about Kings and Queens in the UK is that they have the right (ney duty) to KICK ASS. If enough people feel that the politicians are flouting the constitution then Liz can really go for the S&M. Well according to our constituion as written - but has anyone seen our written constitution? I saw the latest version (with numerous corrections) in Salisbury Cathedral and King John only signed that page under duress.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:20 AM

The UK does not have [unfortunately] a written constitution. I don't think the Liz 2 has the power ot fire TB [what fitting initials]. Were she to do so she might find herself out of a job, as there is a lot more republican sentiment around these days than I can remember. Particularly among the present government with it's large majority. As seen in the poll tax riots, and other civil disobedience, revolution in this country is not as far below the surface as I imagined.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 09:07 PM

They're just like folk singers. They play for their audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

...because most of society is superficial. Politicians reflect what the majority want to see. Nobody cares about sincerity or integrity. Ethical conduct is laughable. People who dare to care are considered to be fools or naive at best. To speak about justice or fairness or equal opportunity does not instill confidence.

In a world where most people feel powerless, they will usually align themselves with the bully just to be on the safe side. We therefore get the same old shit and it just keeps getting deeper.

I'd actually welcome a politician with scruples but then where would the money come from? The only way to keep our politicians honest is to bring the large corporations to their knees. The only way to do that is through boycotts and general strikes. Then again, maybe we should look at the way campaigns are financed and change the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 08:16 AM

I tend to agree.

The vacuity, the empty spaces are a bit of light relief from the things they do have opinions about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 09:34 AM

Successful politicians are not especially vacuous, but they have to sound that way so as not to risk offending any potential supporters. Each party has a "power base" that it can't risk eroding by taking controversial or even innovative stands. So they say as little as they can get away with. This year in the US they're saying even less than usual.

The popular news media are also involved. They know that viewers and readers will go elsewhere if they're bored. Nothing is more boring to most people than setting forth the subtleties of complex issues. One result is that scandals, potential scandals, and now non-scandals (the *possibility* that 30-odd years ago 25-year-old "W" accepted special treatment in the Texas ANG!) become the focus of interest (i.e., marketing).

Endless public opinion polls lie behind much of this. Years ago candidates could at least afford to take consistent stands because they had no reliable way of knowing how many potential voters they were turning off.

Our celebrity culture is another factor. Candidates are entertaining celebrities. They make us laugh, groan, cheer, feel good about ourselves. They entertain us on late-night talk shows with music and patter. In office, they can reassure us, scare us, crank up the drama, vanquish the villains, cut taxes (i.e., hand out prizes).

What they think or stand for becomes almost irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

Vacuous truth

Informally, a logical statement is vacuously true if it is true but doesn't say anything; examples are statements of the form "everything with property A also has property B", where there is nothing with property A.
For instance, the statement "All elephants inside a loaf of bread are pink" is vacuously true since there are no elephants inside a loaf of bread; here property A is "being an elephant inside a loaf of bread", and property B is "being pink".
Another example is "if a prime number is even and bigger than two, then it must be divisible by three"
There are no such prime numbers, so in a sense the truth of this statement "doesn't matter".
The statement "0 mathematicians can change a lightbulb" is not vacuously true (or, indeed, true at all); the lightbulb joke "in a group of 0 mathematicians, any one of them can change a lightbulb" however is vacuously true.

Vacuous truth should be compared to tautology, with which it is sometimes conflated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:36 AM

Don't you just love it when folks just come straight out with it, and don't mince their words!
Giok ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM

It's because the people that vote for vacuous politicians are themselves vacuous. They haven't done their homework.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:52 PM

This is what I mean when I say that people vote according to their social status or family background, for a party and not for a candidate. No thought required!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: Chris Green
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:20 PM

Precisely. Problem is, at the moment, who else do we vote for?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are politicians so vacuous?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:25 PM

Politicians are not vacuous, they are very intelligent, with extremely well-disciplined minds.

Remmember they must constantly serve their corporate masters while appearing to serve their electorate.

Can you imagine how hard that must be?

I think it's a little harsh to criticize them for the odd vacuous stare into space every now and then.

Of course a good politician can pull it off virtually seemlessly, but then you get your mug politicians who give the game away every time they open their mouths.