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help me with the Scots language

Margot 05 Nov 98 - 10:22 AM
05 Nov 98 - 10:35 AM
Mo 05 Nov 98 - 01:52 PM
Bill D 05 Nov 98 - 06:46 PM
Rincon Roy 06 Nov 98 - 02:33 AM
Cuilionn 06 Nov 98 - 11:00 PM
Frank in the swamps 07 Nov 98 - 05:46 AM
John Nolan 07 Nov 98 - 08:45 AM
Angus 12 Nov 98 - 10:55 AM
13 Nov 98 - 05:34 AM
Neil Lowe 13 Nov 98 - 11:55 AM
26 Nov 98 - 11:33 AM
Murray on Saltspring 27 Nov 98 - 02:43 AM
Frank in the swamps 27 Nov 98 - 05:54 AM
Annraoi 28 Nov 98 - 04:26 PM
Harry O 28 Nov 98 - 05:11 PM
Mo 28 Nov 98 - 05:21 PM
Harry O 28 Nov 98 - 09:36 PM
Frank in the swamps 29 Nov 98 - 05:57 AM
Bill Cameron 29 Nov 98 - 12:48 PM
Margot 29 Nov 98 - 05:49 PM
Jerry Friedman 30 Nov 98 - 04:05 PM
Margot 01 Dec 98 - 07:01 PM
09 Dec 98 - 12:09 AM
Sandy 09 Dec 98 - 12:55 AM
Mo 09 Dec 98 - 02:53 AM
Philippa 09 Dec 98 - 06:15 AM
Bill Cameron answers J Friedman 09 Dec 98 - 09:49 AM
Mo 10 Dec 98 - 05:41 AM
John Nolan 10 Dec 98 - 08:03 AM
Webby 10 Dec 98 - 11:58 AM
Wallace 10 Dec 98 - 03:19 PM
Mo 10 Dec 98 - 04:29 PM
Wallace 10 Dec 98 - 08:02 PM
Taconicus 09 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM
BobKnight 09 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM
Jack Campin 09 Aug 10 - 09:01 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Aug 10 - 12:17 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Aug 10 - 12:25 AM
BobKnight 10 Aug 10 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Allan Con 10 Aug 10 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Audltimer 10 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Allan Con 10 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM
The Sandman 10 Aug 10 - 01:11 PM
The Sandman 10 Aug 10 - 01:18 PM
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Subject: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Margot
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 10:22 AM

I love sea shantys and so many are in Scots. I would like to learn Scots. Can you recommend a beginner's book? Also, I am in Vancouver, Washington just across the border from Portland, Oregon. Is there anyone in this area who speaks Scots who wouldn't mind meeting with me to help me learn? (Its hard to get pronunciation from books)


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From:
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 10:35 AM

You might be interested in the Scots FAQ at ftp://jpd.ch.man.ac.uk/pub/Scots/ScotsFAQ.txt


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Mo
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 01:52 PM

Pedants Corner Inc. - Speaking Scots as such is as impossible as speaking any other country's language - those in the South near the border have a different dialect from those in the central belt (as the more highly populated bit in the middle stretching from coast to coast is called) - and they in turn speak differently from those in the Highlands, the Islands, and the North East. And all have their own words for certain things - just to make life even more fun!!

However, whinge over, if there is anything I can help you with online Margot, I'd be delighted. My main area of knowledge is Glasgow/Ayrshire - but I know a wee tate (a little bit - tate pronounced "tayt" - wee - well I don't think it can be pronounced any other way!) about the Doric language/dialect which is from around Aberdeen. Cheers,

Mo


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 06:46 PM

and I'll bet that there are places and/or people in Portland where you could get help/lessons. A university is a good place to start, but there are always organizations (like local Clan affiliates) which might know someone...


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Rincon Roy
Date: 06 Nov 98 - 02:33 AM

The wonderful Scottish FAQ at http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/scotfaq/contents.html has a compelling resource page on the language at http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/scotfaq/3_2.html


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Cuilionn
Date: 06 Nov 98 - 11:00 PM

Och, it's sae guid that yir at least ettlin' tae lairn! If ye're wantin' resources, there are some auld storytellers an' sangsters ye can listen tae on tape, sic as Norman Kennedy...I'm thinkin' he's frae Aberdeenshire, but I dinnae ken. I try tae record interviews wi' Scots musicians aff o' NPR's "Thistle & Shamrock" program an' listen tae 'em o'er agin tae set my ears aricht. There's still plenty o' Braid Scots wahe maks its way intae th' craic. Anither source for vocabulary-buildin' is glossaries at th' back o' vairse-buiks frae Robert Burns, oor some o' th' auld "Kailyard" buiks by folk sic as Ian MacLaren. It's a wee bit sentimantal, aye, but some o' th' best wrichten-oot Scots I've seen. His maist kenspeckle buik is ca'd "Beside the Bonnie Brier Bush," wrichten aroond 1895, an' ye can find it at a hantle o' usit buikshops.

Here's wishin' ye muckle guid luck...Lang may yir lum reek, an' lang may th' guid Scots tongue keep waggin'!

Ilka blessin' on ye,

--Cuilionn


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 05:46 AM

The following sites are linked to one another, so if I only get ONE url right you're on your way.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/k27/

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/slrc/index.htm

http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~love/index.html

I'm also going to place a link in our links page to the school of Scottish studies, it has stories and ballads in print and with soundfiles.

Frank i.t.s.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: John Nolan
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 08:45 AM

I recommend The Concise Scots Dictionary put out by Aberdeen University Press. ISBN-0-08-028491-4


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Angus
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 10:55 AM

Ay, an aw tha couthie an' braw gab ye ghite...


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From:
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 05:34 AM

Howzitgaun hen? It's a wee bit hard wi aw thay dialects you know. I widna gi ya much chance o talking Glaswegian doll ,never mind auld Scots. Yer pronunciation fae some bam ye met and had a swallee wi,wid be his ane, his alane,but a the best onyway


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 11:55 AM

Just a thought: Do you suppose the movie "Trainspotting," set in modern day Edinburg, might help with pronunciation? If one could commit the dialogue to memory, well....


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From:
Date: 26 Nov 98 - 11:33 AM

if ye want REAL Scots language then learn tha language of tha Scots, that being Gaelic. Auld Scots is ultimately a branch of (northern)English...


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 02:43 AM

I can't let the last comment go by. Scots is a language in its own right, on the very same level as [Southern] English, since *both* are descended from Anglo-Saxon, but by different routes. and they have different histories. Modern English I think stems from the London dialect of Chaucer, while Scots is mainly from that of the Lothians, where Edinburgh is, and where the Royal Court was. But it's never been able to withstand the assaults of the English Bible, for one thing, and the regrettable idea that English English, the language of the London Court (even though the King was Scots) was the way to talk. So Scots declined into a number of dialects, none of which has real pre-eminence. There is a general sort of way of talking, though; and pronunciation is maybe easy enough. Make all your vowels pure (not many diphthongs), as in (say) Italian; though the "oo" sound can be heard as very close to the French "u" or the German "ue". Don't just trill the R, but RRROLL it. Practise the CH sound of German; and then get started on Burns, for instance. More to come, if you like. Cheers Murray


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 05:54 AM

I'm with Murray on this, on the links page is a "Wabsteid" called Wir Ain Leid. The section titled "What is Scots?" gives a good account of the origins of the language. It should also be pointed out that although the Scots (a tribe of Irish) eventually gave their name to the nation, Scotland has long been a mongrel land. Angles first entered Scotland as mercenaries in the Roman Army and have been there as long as the Dal Riadans.

Frank i.t.s.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Annraoi
Date: 28 Nov 98 - 04:26 PM

Why does "Cuilionn", a supporter of the Scots language and more power to him, choose a Gaelic soubriquet ? Another question. Frank i.t.s., Whowere the Dal Riadans ?


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Harry O
Date: 28 Nov 98 - 05:11 PM

All this talk of Scots puts me in mind of the time when all Scots speakers referred to their mither tung as Inglis, Am A no richt ? Which is just an attempt to render "Am I not right ?" in such a way as to enable speakers of other dialects of English to approximate a Scots accent. We could all spell our local variety of English, or Gaelic, or what you will, using the orthographic conventions of another language. But doing so would not convey the "status" of a Language on it. "Un petit d'un petit" got it right, raight, ráit. Wadges thenk ?


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Mo
Date: 28 Nov 98 - 05:21 PM

I can see your point of view Harry, personally I'm not too fond of this way of writing. However, it's a free world (okay, that's an arguable point....) so I'm not going to be down on anyone for doing it - so long as they don't mind me speaking with a Scottish accent but writing in mainly Standard. By the way,(which, by the way, I'm told by my English friends is a particularly Glaswegian form of starting a sentence!) I once saw surfing the 'net described as "Stravaiging the World Wide Wab" - now that, for some odd reason, I like.... Ah weel - wha's like us, etc.! Cheers,

Mo


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Harry O
Date: 28 Nov 98 - 09:36 PM

Hi, Mo, Delighted to make your acquaintance. I have absolutely nae bo'er wi' fawks leid, and I take your point completely. As a Linguist, my prime concern is with language as a system of systems. It's when people misuse languages for political ends, appealing to pseudo-linguistic criteria to lend credence to their very often specious demands that I react. Witness the current campaign in Northern Ireland at the moment to have "Ulster Scots" accepted internationally as a fully fledged language. Lang may your lum reek wi' ither fawk's caw'. Harry


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 29 Nov 98 - 05:57 AM

Dal Riada was the name of the original kingdom of Scots who arrived from Ireland. It's drifting from the topic, but I mentioned it because many people on this side of the puddle (U.S.) who are vaguely Scottish often have a fanciful and frankly, simplistic view of Scotlands history and people. Many "clan members" here think that during the highland clearances all the ethnically "true" Scots came to America, and only "English" faux Scots were left behind. It often has more to do with racism than cultural heritage. It kind of gets up my nose when some racist nitwit who inherited a Scottish name from five generations back honks at me "Whut clahn do y'all b'lowng to?". Of course, I've heard the same kind of crap from American Anglophiles too. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, these nutters are in the minority, just not minority enough.

Harry O. Lang may yer lum reek! I'd forgotten about other peoples coal, I haven't heard that since my old grandpa Burke died. Thanks for reminding me.

Frank i.t.s.


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Subject: Lost tribe of ex-scots?
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 29 Nov 98 - 12:48 PM

The lost wandering tribes of Scotland...

It's not about language, but I just read a fascinating new book by Farley Mowat called "The Farfarers". It's a speculative reconstruction of a forgotten people he believes were the first European expatriates to settle in North America. He calls them Albans, and based on some archaeological evidence, claims they settled in Great Britain long before Christ, but being a pastoral people and not having warlike nature or advanced weaponry/armor, were gradually squeezed northward by, in sequence, the Celts (no romanticism here), the Romans, the Picts, and practically everybody else. For several centuries they occupied the Orkneys & Shetland, where they hunted the then thriving walrus, which was a highly valuable resource. As the herds diminished, they started making seasonal hunting trips to Iceland and Greenland. When the Viking raids started in the mid-millenium era, many surviving Albans decided to make permanent homes in Iceland and Greenland--there were no Vikings there (yet), and the commute to work was greatly reduced! Conventional Scandinavian history, of course, says that these islands were originally settled by Vikings, who then made bold voyages of discovery to Labrador and Newfoundland (and there is positive proof of their presence there--that Columbus guy of course didn't discover North America, he never even saw it.) Mowat, who wrote a book, "Westviking" 30 years ago, about the Viking voyages, now maintains that the Vikings made their way across the Atlantic doing what they did best--raiding and pillaging existing settlements, and taking over areas they found desirable.

The North American evidence consists of forty-odd peculiar stone foundations, in the Eastern Arctic (Baffin Island and extreme northern Quebec & Labrador) which resemble longhouse walls--but have no trace of roofing, and are found in treeless areas where no timber was available. He calls them "boat-roofed foundations" and believes that the Albans made winter accommodations for themselves by overturning their large walrus-skin vessels on them--and boat-roofed houses are an ancient tradition in Shetland & Orkney. There are also dry-laid stone cairns which appear to be marker beacons, all over the Arctic, Labrador and Newfoundland.

Finally (hoo boy) he points to the existence of a people known as Jakatars, who still inhabit some parts of Newfoundland which have these stone cairns. Mowat suggests implicitly that these people are the direct descendants of the Albans--and have continuously inhabited Labrador and Newfoundland since before 1000 AD!

Of course, this is all speculative, but Mowat spins it into a highly plausible yarn. Reminding us once again that so many peoples have inhabited the different parts of Scotland that there just ain't no such thing as a an exclusive claim on "true" Scottishness.

Incidentally, Frank, I always thought the Dal Riadans were a mythical Irish kingdom--I'm interested in hearing more about their presence in Scotland.

Bill "2nd-gen Scot" Cameron


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Margot
Date: 29 Nov 98 - 05:49 PM

I'm overwhelmed by such a wonderful response to my stated desire to learn Scots. After having read the history of the development of the languages in Scotland, I too am convinced that Scots is indeed a language unto itself. I'd like to converse directly with anyone about Scots and language in general. I am at jbw@iname.com The FAQ sites were particularly helpful!

Margot


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 30 Nov 98 - 04:05 PM

Margot, why am I guessing you only read one side of the history?

Bill Cameron, does Farley Mowat discuss the possibility that cairns and boat-roofed (or hide-roofed) houses might have been built by the actual Native Americans and Greenlanders? It is good to have a reminder that the Celts were probably not the original inhabitants of Britain and Ireland, though.

Harry O, don't you linguists distinguish between accent and dialect? In "lang may your lum reek" you can certainly argue that the first three words are the same as words in my dialect or yours, but pronounced differently--that difference being indicated for lang/long by a difference in spelling. On the other hand, there's no "lum" in the way I speak, and this meaning of "reek" has been obsolete for centuries in most of the U.S. and England. Surely this is more than a difference in accent?

Whether it amounts to a difference in language is another question, and as you say, some of the people on both sides have political agendas. But that doesn't make the "Scots is a language" side right or wrong. So where can we find the official definition of "language"? (And does this official definition have any political bias?)


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Margot
Date: 01 Dec 98 - 07:01 PM

Hello Jerry. Thank you for your response on November 30th. I'm not stuck on saying that Scots is a language, but I do recognize that there are plenty of words used that I do not know how to pronounce or know the meaning. I am primarily a singer, and it is a no no (at least for me) to sing words the definition of which I do not know.

It is interesting for me to ponder your question of what exactly language is. I have two children, both with autism. Neither child has developed language at a normal rate; indeed we have spent thousands of dollars in the last few years on therapy.

Veronica is 6 and has just begun to really use language to express her needs. Her speech is awkward sounding and often mispronounced. But the difference between hearing her say faffle peese (waffle please) and having her tug on my arm and whine is like night and day. Everyone is far happier responging to the spoken mode of communication.

Language is a tool for communication, but it can also be so pretty. I like poetry and verse. How ironic that I have always picked up different languages so easily and my two children can hardly speak English, my native tongue!

I am eager to learn the Scots language or the Scot's English, whichever it may be!

Margot jbw@iname.com


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From:
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 12:09 AM

bliadhna mhath ur!


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Sandy
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 12:55 AM

In response to a couple of thoughts/questions above: Yes, Norman Kennedy is from Aberdeen. My wife and I met him at the School of Scottish Studies in Edinburgh in 1958, and gave him a lift home from there (to Aberdeen) when we took the great ballad singer Jeannie Robertson home to record some of her songs. Later, of course, when Norman came to this country, we produced his first recording, still available as a "custom cassette" in our catalog.

One of our favorite sources for definitions of Scots words is Chambers' Scots Dictionary. Margot, you should be able to find a copy by searching the inventories of the many fine used-book sites on the Internet. Try Bibliofind, or MX Book Find, Advanced Book Exchange, or some of the others. If you need more help locating them, let me know. I can send URLs (but not now, 'cause I'd have to look 'em up).

Reach us through our web site (www.folklegacy.com) or via e-mail at folklegacy@snet.net. We'll try to help.

Sandy (Folk-Legacy's resident folk fogey)


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Mo
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 02:53 AM

Bliadhna mhath ur? It's not Hogmanay yet....!! Can anyone remember the Gaelic for Merry/Happy Christmas?

Cheers, Mo


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Philippa
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 06:15 AM

Nollaig Chridheil


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Bill Cameron answers J Friedman
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 09:49 AM

Jerry Friedman inquired:

Bill Cameron, does Farley Mowat discuss the possibility that cairns and boat-roofed (or hide-roofed) houses might have been built by the actual Native Americans and Greenlanders? It is good to have a reminder that the Celts were probably not the original inhabitants of Britain and Ireland, though.

Were _definitely_ not.

Oh aye, but dinna fash yersel'. (By the way, the peoples you're referring to--many very different nations-- certainly don't call themselves "Native Americans" in the Arctic or other parts of Canada) Part of Mowat's theory is that the Albans associated closely with the pre-Columbian Arctic inhabitants known as "Dorsets", who were subsequently displaced by the more warlike Inuit (aka Eskimos, no longer a PC term) much as the Albans were by the Celts & Vikings. But the Dorsets didn't build ships--no timber in most of their range--and their ice & snow houses (smaller and better insulated) were much more comfortable than a big hide-roofed stone foundation--remember there's no firewood there. Would have been friggin cold in fact! So I think its quite credible that they would have regarded these longhouses as a tolerable eccentricity on the part of the white strangers--not something they'd want for themselves!

Bill


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Mo
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 05:41 AM

Thanks Phillippa!

Possibly controversial point this - but - I don't really care too much what my ancient ancestry was. I was born in Scotland, my parents were born in Scotland, at least 80% of my grandparents were born in Scotland, therefore, qed,etc etc, I'm Scottish. End of story! And anyway, we're all Jock Tamsin's Bairns.....

Nollaig Chridheil when it comes!

Mo


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: John Nolan
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 08:03 AM

Apart from the Concise Scots Dictionary mentioned above, another interesting book is The Language of Walter Scott - a Study of his Scottish and Period Language, by Dr. Graham Tulloch, published by Andre Deutsch.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Webby
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 11:58 AM

What's Gaelic for Merry Christmas? It's ...... " Thanks, I'll have a double "


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Wallace
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 03:19 PM

Oh dear me, More feeble Anglo-saxon attempts at wit.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Mo
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 04:29 PM

Actually, as our measures are significantly bigger than English ones(especially in quarter gill bars - to hell with metrication!) we don't need to go for doubles.... Civilisation - that's when they do more than just dampen your glass with the spirit.....

Cheers!

Mo


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Wallace
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 08:02 PM

The pair of you want to try Irish measures. Now there's civilisation for you. I've tried it once (I think) so I ken whereof I spake. Wallace


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

Ever wonder about the meaning of words in Scots English folk songs? Here's a link to the Online Scots Dictionary.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: BobKnight
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM

I'm sick of reading here on Mudcat about the Scots being an Irish tribe. This is an old story that has been passed on, ad infunitum until it has become, "The Truth." Excavations by the University of Strathclyde Archaeological Department in the west of Scotland where the Irish tribe (the Scotti) was supposed to have settled, have produced no evidence to support this story. It's about as true as the legend that the Scots are the lost tribe of Israel.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM

Oy McVey


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:01 PM

Taconicus - Scots English is not Scots.

I suspect you just made up "Scots English" yourself, without realizing it was an established phrase for a specific (and commonly spoken) dialect you'd never heard of.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:17 AM

I'm not clear if BobKnight disputes that the Dalriada came from Ireland or that the Scots language was imported by an Irish tribe. The Dalriada called themselves "Gaels" not Scots and there is little dispute that they came from what is now Northern Ireland. The Romans called them "Scotti" and from that derives the name of Scotland but they spoke Gaelic, not Scots. As a language Scots is an Anglo-Saxon branch of German as is English. There is another old thread currently running with better explanation of the same subject and perhaps they should be combined.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:25 AM

>>The Romans called them "Scotti" <<

...as in the well-known Latin tag "Me bime uppus, Scotti"?

~M~


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: BobKnight
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:52 AM

I'm not disputing anything. Especially not language. I'm just giving the latest, (for the last twenty years or so) research on the legend that the Scots came from Ireland. Of course there was trading between the two countries way back, but of the invasion and settlement of the Scotti, as already said, there is no archaelogical trace. There used to be a fair bit about it on the University of Strathclyde website, have a look, it may still be there.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:38 AM

"Scots came from Ireland"

It of course also depends on what is meant by Scots. Mostly when people think of Scots then they think of the people who inhabit Scotland and of course it is pretty evident that most of the people who inhabited Scotland in the first millenium did not come from Ireland. By tradition one of the peoples (ie the Scotti) who came to make up the Scots of the later Scottish nation came from Ireland. By tradition they came across with King Fergus about 500AD. Most Scottish historians now seen to concede that this could simply be a change of power base from Ulster to Argyll and that Dalriadan influence itself traversed the Irish Sea and that there would already have been a Gaelic speaking population in Argyll prior to his supposed arrival. There isn't any proof of any violent mass invasion which leaves the possibilities that there may have been a trickle movement over time; there may simply have been a Gaelicisation of the upper stratums of society which eventually led to cultural dominance; or the Epidii of the early 1st millenium may have already been Gaels with no need for any movement from Ireland. In truth we don't know for sure! They either came from Ireland originally or were simply already part of a greater Irish (or at least Dalriadan)cultural area. Either way the Gaelic language then spread over most of the rest of Scotland to at least some degree.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: GUEST,Audltimer
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM

You might like to try this http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk
Some verry good, Some even difficult for me.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM

Movement of people and cultures over the face of the earth is continuing and ongoing as it has been ever since the dawn of mankind. Some movements were sudden invasions where large groups displaced the native population. More often emigration was more gradual and peaceful and assimilation changed both groups. In tribal societies borders were not well defined and kings were leaders, not rulers, as in a feudal society. There is some disagreement about wither the Picts were "P" or "Q" speaking Celts but most likely they were "P" like the Britons. In any case many believe that their culture and language was close enough to the Gaels that they blended into one.
By the way the Gaels also emigrated to Ireland many years earlier from Spain and to Spain from the Middle East and on it goes.
Another influential emigration to Scotland was the Normans who started out as Vikings invading France. They spoke French when they invaded Britain. The Vikings also invaded Scotland directly and blended with the natives to the extent that some Islands in the Hebrides with large Gaelic speaking populations descend more directly from the Norse.
After saying all that as a language Scots is Germanic and only distantly related to the Celtic tongues.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM

"There is some disagreement about wither the Picts were "P" or "Q" speaking Celts but most likely they were "P" like the Britons"

I've got quite an extensive library of Scottish history books etc and one thing the modern historians (ie real historians rather than folk interested in history) seem to pretty much agree on is that Pictish was P-Celtic. There had been as you say disagreements in the past but it seems pretty settled now.


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:11 PM

jack campin, why dont you fuck off


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Subject: RE: help me with THE SCOTS LANGUAGE
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:18 PM

correction,to above
haud awa churl, lang nebbit jockie


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