BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?

Subject: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: jimmyt
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:17 PM

I am wondering about people's perspective on occupations or professions. Do you think there are honorable or dishonorable professions or are the people who chose them either honorable or dishonorable? Before you suggest things like bankrobber, I am speaking about normal jobs that people perform. For example,I know some policemen who are real jerks. I also know some that are absolutely wonderful people who are true heros. Same goes for most professions and occupations.

I happen to practice dentistry for my job. I enjoy the folks who are my patients and get a great sense of satisfaction from helping people overcome their fears of needles, etc. I get a great sense of satisfaction from getting people out of pain, fix problems that they have, and to be perfectly honest, I also enjoy the lifestyle that this profession enables me to live also, but it would be a crappy job if I only did it for thew money, because as in all jobs, some of it is not fun at all.

The reason I am asking this is some folks here as well as in the community in general tend to paint all dentists with the same brush as money-grubbing assholes who are to be generally disliked. My contention is that people should be judged on their merits or lack thereof, not on what they do for their lifework. Anyone interested in sharing opinions? I am most interested in what you think

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM

Dr Dok Soo Ahn treated me when I was in need of major dental work. He had been in Canada for about four years at that time. He basically made it possible for me to sing again with most of my own teeth (was after an accident I had years back). He knew I was broke but he did the work anyway. Caps and all. I was able to pay him over time. He trusted me where another dentist wouldn't. That one wanted cash right away. I don't remember the other dentist's name. I remember Dok Soo.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Megan L
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM

Heck Jimmy I wis a traffic warden for four years, nobody was intrested that i was a keen local historian or poet but the all thought you shredded your birthcertificate when you joined. Dentists are a rare comodity over here and most of the ones i have met were decent folk, even the one with chronic haletosiss :)

When I was young we were brought up to respect proffessional folk, the doctor teacher dentist etc, mind you my mum did say respect had to be earned.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: jimmyt
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:40 PM

I don't want to appear that I am whining, but I find it to be curious when people make a judgment of someone because of their profession. I have many attorneys as patients, some terrific folks some jerks.

Once I took a job as a salesman, selling fundraising to service clubs and school groups. I was young, innocent, green ,and very timid about making my first few sales contacts. The first three I chose were pastors. That day, I found out that just because a person preaches Christianity does not mean they follow all of the tenants they preach. These three guys were perfect jerks. Same with people in my profession. Sometimes I wince at the lack of compassion some dentists seem to have, but I also know lots of them who go above and beyond trying their best to help as many people every day that they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:57 PM

Categorical judgements are pretty useless, especially when applied to somehting as lively as human beings, I guess.

Categorical generalizations are no damn good, including this one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

I've even know some honest and honorable politicians. Not many, but a few.

I suppose that you could be an honorable SS guard. Or an honorable drug dealer. "Honorable" doesn't imply "moral" or "ethical."

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: jimmyt
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

I guess I am using it to refer to honest and kind. Sorry didn't mean to confuse the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:12 PM

Unfortunately, "honorable" is too durn general to really make any kind of a real judgment.

An "honorable drug dealer"? From my perspective I have a hard time imagining that. Perhaps (s)he pays his suppliers in full, and maybe (s)he sells only reasonable quality drugs, in full weight or volume measure, to his/her customers. Some might say that's being honorable. I apply a meaning to "honorable" that would still not allow me to accept that word for a drug dealer, because the nature of the calling is to cause harm to the customer and to society in general.

But I'm sure that there are better and worse individuals in every calling.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM

There are some jobs where being honest and kind might get you the sack pretty sharpish.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM

I like my job. I like it a lot. I get to help people, to see kids' faces light up, to help make older folks happy. Since there's little enough happiness around these days, it's a neat thing to be able to help spread it.

Actually, I can't conceive of a "kind" drug dealer or concentration camp guard. You might be "honorable" but the profession itself is inherently destructive. Same thing is true about a pimp.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:38 PM

well, my current dentist is clearly an honorable, caring guy. He is also quite good at what he does. I know 'some' got in it mostly because they thought it would make them a good living, but I have only met a few of those.

On the general topic, there are a few professions where it seems it is hard to compete unless you lower your moral standards a bit. My brother has sold cars most of his life, and the stories he has told me about the wheeling and dealing would make you shudder. (and he has 'mostly' worked for major dealers who are 'supposedly' honest!)

Sales work, in general, including lobbying and advertising, not to mention lawyering, seem to REQUIRE suspending your basic sense of 'fair' in favor of 'profitable'.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM

"Kind drug dealer" - that might depend on your definitions.

Someone dedicated to supplying people suffering from Multiple Sclerosis and so forth with marihuana would be a drug dealer in the eyes of the law in most places. That needn't such a person being the kindest and most honesty person in the world.

Even concentration camp guards - I think it is possible there are decent people who find themselves working in Gunatanamo Bay.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:14 PM

The lawful occupations I most despise are promotion, mass entertainment, and drug-law enforcement.

There are also occupations such as politics, journalism, & the military that IMO tend to collect bad people & make them worse, but, because they do necessary work, also tend to collect good people & make them tragic.

Altogether, the sentence "I'm glad I don't have your job" can be said with quite a variety of inflections.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:25 PM

I wanted to use the phrase "skilled in the pimptorial arts" in a sentence but I'm kind of in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

There are caring and kind people in the military -- I've met them and respect them. There are honest, caring lawyers -- I'm married to one.

It's anyone who allows greed (of many kinds) to overcome humanity that I part company with.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: JenEllen
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

Throw a dart, an' you'll hit an honorable person, or you won't....

With the balances in life being what they are, you could probably do a quickie mendel square and come out with fairly accurate proportions of crap people and professions versus honorable ones. Not that it means a damn thing....*g*

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:01 PM

Rapaire:

There is no honor in dealing with drugs. Honor requires a sensibility toward your connection with the species. A person of honor might give a drug to someone in pain, but sell them to the otherwise able? I think not.

Of course this is all a flimsy semantic distinction, but I hate to see the word diluted as it seems ot be in your definition.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:25 PM

After being made redundant as a Computer Programmer, I am making ends meet by working behind the bar at the local pub. There may be caring people in this profession but being disillusioned and cynical, I am a complete and utter bar steward.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM

I have never yet met a dentist that I disliked. That certainly includes JimmyT, who is a true gentleman, even if he does have odd taste in underware. The people who do billing for dentists, on the other hand, should be looked at very carefully........

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:58 PM

Hmmmm...you know, man, pot sellers, are, like, totally honorable in, like, the most grooooviest way, man... except for that evil little ratweasel who burned me last week, of course...

"Blessed are the meth drinkers, pot sellers
Illusion dwellers"- Simon and Garfunkel

I think it's difficult to generalise a whole proffession. As a child, i had a dentist who was extremely pleasant and, more importantly, gave me blueberry flavoured mouthwash. On the other hand, my current dentist is so occupied with his nurses ample bosom that he often forgets he's a dentist and reverts to lecherous old man mode. He often has small children run from his office in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:56 AM

I think anyone in business needs to be honorable. You must first of course have a fine product. I used to be a distributor for Fug Multi-Use Detergent. Great stuff!!! Laundry piling up? Fug it. Dishes piled high all over the kitchen? Fug them too. Or is your whole house a mess? No problem, just Fug the whole thing! Your woman wants to soak in a bubble bath? Fug her instead....she'll love it! Or if she's gone, just go Fug yourself.

Fug is made by one of America's Foremost Manufacturers....They've been manufacturing Foremost for years and have just come out with a new economy size, Fivemost. And if for any reason you are not satisfied, simply return the unused portion of the product and they will return the unused portion of your money!

Spaw (and Thank You Redd Foxx)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

"A person of honor might give a drug to someone in pain" - and in doing so they would be legally classed as a drug dealer.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:40 AM

I've lived long enough to have the opinion that there are TWO so called "INDUSTRIES" that seem to attract the scum of the earth, at least here in America.

I offer that the second to the worst of these two is anything connected to the insurance industry. By definition it is a numbers game, predicated first of all by guarenteeing the company profits by getting your money. I have NEVER met an insurance salesperson, and I know many, that I would ever invite into my home.

But by far the worst in my experience is the "CEMETARY" industry. I do not mean the funeral industry, but the people that own the land where huge profits are made by burying people. Here in Washington state, this industry is so rigged that it's vitually impossible to find any kind of burial place that is affordable and dignified. And the cemetary plot salespeople are really something to behold.

Just my opinion. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:16 AM

20 yrs ago I had a friend whose husband was a used car salesman. If I was a driver I would have bought a car from him, & I recommended his Company to other friends, but as the husband of a cancer sufferer he was an arsehole. He gave her no support in her bad times & insulted her for having thickened & inflamed scars on her breast. Her self esteem plummeted even further, & I couldn't understand why she put up with him. I do now - she was enmeshed.

I recently read about a survey of occupations, & used-car salesmen, real estate agents & dentists were near the top of hated occupations. I once saw a dentist who was pleased when I said I hated going to the dentist, because most people said they hated the dentist. He also told me a lot of dentists committed suicide because of this

I despise many local real estate agents as they harass me about selling my place or buying another (I tore up yet another unread letter tonight) but I have a friend who sells real estate. He has found life a tad difficult since stopping drinking & drugging, & trying to live life a day at a time. There are occasions he tells clients that the place he's selling is not really what it is made out to be!!

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:30 AM

Amos, I can concieve of an honorable, caring, kind drug dealer. But what I can conceive of and what they are (a bunch, IMO, of bottom-dwelling scumsuckers without decency towards anyone, including themselves [I'm trying to keep this free of really rude words], without whom we'd all be better off) are two entirely seperate things.

Does the public health dentist I went to as a child, a man who rarely gave anesthesia and was eventually convicted of embezzling state funds, rank as dishonorable? He did, after all, provide basic dental care to children....

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:42 AM

Sandra, Your comment @ the high number of suicides among dentists reminded me of a conversation I had with a deck customer once. He is a dentist. I knew the statistic and asked about it. He agreed and said it was because of the incredibly high stress in their day to day working situation. He said, "Think about it. All day we work VERY CLOSE to people that are usually stressed out, in pain. Try as I do to take frequant walks around the clinic and get my own emotions under controll, by the end of the day I'm totally beat." Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:59 AM

Sorry to hear that you have heard such negative comments from your community, jimmy, but you're not alone.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I'm sure someone has mentioned what bad press (and myriad jokes) are always around about lawyers.

My father was an attorney, and he was loved and respected by everyone who ever knew him. He was honest and did his work conscientiously. He also had certain limits to what he would and would not handle. For instance, he always refused to handle divorces which involved children. He knew how difficult and emotional they could be, most especially on kids, and just couldn't face being in the middle of something so potentially negative or harmful. It's only a shame because he would have been most compassionate if he had been willing to take on those cases...but he knew his own limits. (He also died from his second coronary, so this was a man who literally took things to heart.)

I agree that it's not the profession but how that profession is either used honorably or exploited. This can be true for most jobs. In the end, only the person him/herself knows the real answer to that one...if they are willing to see it.

I once worked in advertising. It lasted a month. I developed an ulcer because I didn't believe in my product, and felt I was ripping off my customers. I found more and more reasons not to go to work, and in the end, I walked away from the most lucerative job I'd ever had. I've never been sorry.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

I appreciate all the comments. It is true that not only do dentists work with high stress situations where people are in pain, etc but in addition, we happen to have a profession where we violate people's personal space all the time. Americans especially do not want folks close to them, and as a dentist I have to be in that no-comfort zone to do my work.

I do not get this attitude all that frequently, but I do appreciate all of your opinions and comments. jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:23 PM

There are jerks and good people in all professions and there are people who are perceived as both on any given day.

jimmyt, I am sure there are people who have quit you as their dentist because they moved or found someone closer. But odds are their are probably some who quit you for other reasons, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

WS Gilbert put it well:

When a felon's not engaged in his employment
Or maturing his felonious little plans,
His capacity for innocent enjoyment
Is just as great as any honest man's.

And no doubt that even applies to Estate Agents.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM

Deckman: Yes, insurance stinks -- and what it stinks of (like its moral opposite gambling) is the continual presumption & temptation of fraud. But, like some of the other occupations we have mentioned, it is actually useful, so I am inclined to cut it some slack when I am damning things to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:17 AM

I have a dentist that is a star but I know what you mean about stereotypes. "Teachers are all the same you know ... and the reason the system is a mess is because of them." Yeh right!

or..."I just loved my 2nd grade teacher!"

One is just as bad as the other.

If you enjoy your profession, keep doing your best! And whatever else, get a good hygienest!

d

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Morticia
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 12:51 PM

I think it would be fair to say that I am in one of the most depised professions of all.Social workers are damned if they do, damned if they don't.At their best seen as ineffectual and incompetent, at their worst as agents of satan who's sole mission in life is to tear children away from their loving families or leave them to die in uncaring and abusive ones. We hold lives in our hands on a daily basis and yet are in a profession where we aren't honoured as medical personnel are, nor rewarded financially as they are. The stress levels mean hundreds of us falling sick every week, and some of us are killed just going out there and doing our job.If a fireman dies, he's a hero, if a social worker dies it doesn't even make the papers.

Still, I keep on doing it,eh? Someone has to, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM

In all the jobs I've worked in, mostly journalism and social work, the pattern has seemed to be that the foot-soldiers are pretty good, and the management are pretty useless, or worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:07 PM

Morticia -

I agree. Social workers have terrible working conditions and are truly unsung heroes. So many jobs are steeped in bureacracy that it is almost impossible to do what we are supposed to be doing. The work load is incredible for the average bureaucrat but the time and money continue to increase for the bosses who are supposed to keep the machinery well-oiled. Seems the scum always rises to the top.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:25 PM

Like so many other things, one's opinion depends on one's perspective. I, for instance, hate the sound of a siren, In my opinion there has never been a happy siren. Even on Independence Day when fire trucks moan their small scale sirens, I don't like it. To me, it seems like bell ringing would get just as much attention - in traffic and whatever - and wouldn't carry for blocks around.

The other perspective: A schoolteacher friend tells me that they teacher the youngsters to say when they hear a siren, Somebody's getting help!

It's all in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:35 PM

Doc, as the wife of a cop, I know exactly where you are coming from and so does he. Now, as for dentists, I LOVE mine and would hate to ever have to give him up.

I'm married to what a lot of people in this town (NOT just me....!) see as the only Kind Policeman. Just because a cop CAN write a ticket doesn't always mean he should. As in many other professions, they need to learn to make value judgements. Most dont' bother and just consider everyone who is not in the legal system to be a 'scum bag asshole'.....and some IN the legal system are that. Like the lawyers and judges and cops who put cocaine up their noses....etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:04 PM

sorry you have been made to feel that way jimmy about your job. We all need guys like you. you must know that , cheer up.

peoples attitudes to jobs are funny.

A comedian friend of mine who had been an ambulanceman and a fireman in a previous life put it in a funny way - funny peculiar that is.

He said when he was an ambulance man, he used to see grieving relatives go up to other ambulance men and thank them for their efforts.. Sometimes (this is going back a bit before they were all trained paramedics) the very guys that were being thanked had caused the deaths of their loved ones by being stupid, ineffeicient, not knowing their jobs well enough whatever - but they got thanked.

When a comedian doesn't know his job - can't make people laugh, can't judge the audience right...he had seen peole ready to attack the guy, furious with him, threatening to beat him up.

And yet what did it matter really if the comedian was crap at his job, no one was dead, nothing depended on it

all jobs have their downside. I hope you soon get to feeling good about your work jimmy - from what you say, you have a lot to offer your profession

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 07:30 PM

I have somehow given the wrong impression here, that I am unhappy with my choice of professions, or that somehow I have been losing patients or having more folks unhappy lately that I am geting depressed about it or something. Not at all the way it is, I have more patients than I could ever see to the point that I am presently adding another dentist, and my practice is doing very well. My staff is happy and we are in a period of the most rapid growth I have ever had in 22 years. If anything I am experiencing growing pains in how to keep this thing under control.

It is just WHEN someone makes a blanket statement that they hate all dentists, or we are ONLY in this to get rich, it tends to bother me that someone could possibly make such a blanket statement.

I appreciate all the kind words here regarding this, but mostly wondered if a significant number of people out there ( or here in Mudcat) actually equate good and bad based on the job instead of the person who performs the job. Thanks again jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:10 PM

I have the utmost respect for social workers, entirely because some of them have had to deal with me and anyone willing to take on such a monumental task should be automatically elevated to sainthood...:)

I count myself lucky to know a number of police officers, dentists, lawers (of the human rights variety) and other members of generally despised proffesions who are compassionate, honorable, and otherwise beautiful people. I have also had encounters with police officers and lawers who expressed a level of inhumanity that made my blood run cold. In every occupation, there is a cross section of society and therefore it's impossible to make generalisations.

I also know several drug dealers- not the type of low-life scum who push heroin to the vulnerable who, i fully agree, are not worth the air they breath- but who sell pot, a relativly harmless social drug, to adults buying it of their own free will. These people, and i must stress that point, *people*, are my friends, and i do not associate with arseholes :). Once again, it's impossible to make generalistaions, or accurate ones anyway! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM

We share a common occupation, and it's always been my assumption that when someone says, "I hate going to the dentist" one of the things they are really saying is, "please don't hurt me (like someone else has)". As we both know, sometimes it's really easy not to hurt them, and sometimes it's really, really,really hard not to hurt them. I think this aspect of dentistry is still my biggest daily challenge. This, and the fact that even if our fees are reasonable, what we do is often a financial hardship for a sizable percentage of the population brings more tension to my day than anything else. Certainly there is a special place in hell for people who only do health care "for the money".We both know who you are.

Keep those margins tight, and enjoy the fact that we get a chance to change those negative perceptions, one patient at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:24 PM

When you've got a really bad toothache you are motivated to feel very favourably indeed about your dentist. "PLease God he/she can fit me in morning". And once the dentist has stopped you hurting, that feeling continues, other things being equal.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM

Do people REALLY hate dentists? Don't think so, they hate DENTISTRY, not the person performing it. They're just scared of the unknown and of being hurt (and speaking as someone who, dental-treatment-wise, has had the effing lot, I think their fear-level is often illogically over-elevated).

BTW, not shouting up above, I just don't know how to do bold/underline/italics etc here on Mudcat. Maybe some kind soul could educate me?? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 03:40 AM

Strollin' Johnny, just put an I between the less than, <, and more than signs, >, for whatever you want in italics, then close off the italics part by doing the same thing, but put a forward slash, /, in front of the I. For bold just use a B, instead, or U for underline. Also, there should be no spaces between the arrow signs and the letter in between them.

Jimmy, I judge by how the job is done by that particalar person, not by the profession/occupation. I was taught and have learned over the years there are too many exceptions to the stupid generalisations, anyway!**bg** Thank goodness!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Cllr
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 05:30 AM

pharmacists whats wrong with pharmacists (drug dealers) sorry couldnt resist 8-)

Politicians: as I am a politician I have to say I know lots of good honourable kind politicians

Dentists: Jimmyt He's the best

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Occupations or people? Dishonorable?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 12:25 PM

Katlaughing, thanks for that mate.
SJ :0)