BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....

Subject: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

Well, fir those of you who were gomnna watch tonight's debate between Kett and Bush, you can take a pass on it. Yup, whatever TV station or newspaper you read, Bush has allready been declared the winner...

Yep, in addition to the dumbed down media the various "undecided" voters who will be asked their reactions have average I.Q.'s in the low to mid 80's (with a tail wind) and therefore the dumber candidate will better relate to their un-decided-ness...

Actually, given Bush's anticipated thrashing of Kerry, many in the media are considering just calling all three debates off entirely so their viwers won't be inconvienced by the pre-empting of their 24/7 Stroker Ace NASCAR programing...

Details at 11............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM

Bobert,

Chill, dude. It ain't over til the f*t lady sings.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM

"Oh...ohhhhh....sayyyyyy...cannnn....youuuuuu....seeeeeeeeeee---"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:16 PM

Ah, man, I got stoned and missed the debate? Like, what date is it now, man?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:28 PM

hey brucie....lol   it's 10:25pm,edt,and the debate just ended on Live TV...all networks including PBS!but dont belive it if you hear it from dan rather!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:32 PM

Hey, Chuck. Hope you're feelin' well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

Well, now that I've seen the debate, I must agree that, given the fact that facts and intellegence had to be checked at the door, that Bush won hands down...

Hey, how about that move that Stroker Ace pulled on Kid Drogin on that last lap??? I mean, screw Iraq and them terrorists. Did ya see that move?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:49 PM

I think Kerry won by a small margin and was far better at marshaling facts, while Bush relied on his hominy grits to sound folkie. Bush acted cute, Kerry acted intelligent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

Hey, Amos. Intellegence ain't in these days... Now get back to yer all-night NASCAR station.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

Bush WON - hands down!!!

As terrible a public speaker Mr. Bush is......poor Kerry was caught, trapped, skinned and broiled on an open-spit....before a live audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:59 PM

My respect for both men actually increased, just listening to what came out of their mouths. But when I read their faces and tried to feel what was in their souls, Bush shriveled and died. He is very small of soul.

Kerry is a man for the ages. One of Bush's less fortunate tactics will be to make the Presidency so Plebeian and Philistine that Kerry will appear too good for the job. Only an idiot would fall for such a crude jackhammer job, but...it has been known to happen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

As for Bush winning hands down, I'm afraid you must have been watching a different cartoon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:07 PM

Guest - I hate to break it to you, but you were tuned to the Food Network. That was Emeril who you saw doing the roasting tonight.   Next time, check your TV Guide!! You missed a well run debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Bobert--


Well, I hope and I suspect that your somewhat slanderous description of the undecided voters is off the mark.

Bush was certainly acting on your assumption--his favorite mantras "mixed messages" and "don't say 'wrong war, wrong place, wrong time' " pounded in over and over so that if a brain can't register more than 2 phrases in 90 minutes, it'll get those.

But I thought they will also realize that Kerry has self-confidence and a consistent message, and that Bush misled both Kerry and the rest of the electorate in how he started the Iraq war, continues to mislead it and therefore as a CEO should be fired. Kerry had to establish himself as a credible leader, and I would think, to any undecided voter, he did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

From the Toronto Star:

...An ABC News poll of 530 people had 47 per cent suggesting Kerry had won the debate, 36 per cent saying Bush was victorious and 17 per cent suggesting a tie. But the same voters surveyed said the debate hadn't changed their minds about who they'd vote for.

Kerry argued during the debate that Bush should have spent more money guarding American seaports, airports and nuclear and chemical plants in the wake of 9/11 instead of ushering in major tax cuts that benefit the richest Americans most.

"Those aren't my values. I believe in protecting Americans first," he said.

Bush, who often leaned on his podium in a casual stance, attacked Kerry for voting against increased funds for Iraq but was met with a sharp retort.

"I made a mistake in the way I talked about the war. The president was wrong in invading Iraq. Which is worse?" Kerry said.

The Massachusetts senator opened the debate by thanking the University of Miami and moderator Jim Lehrer for hosting it and expressing condolences to the people of Florida, who have been devastated by four hurricanes since August.

Bush sometimes smirked and tightened his lips in frustration during some of Kerry's answers to Lehrer, while Kerry smiled and often shook his head while Bush spoke. ...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:20 PM

Bunch of commie Canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Don't forget that famous "Deer in the headlights" look of Bush's. It was there again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

That is no way to talk about deer.... Shame on you!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

When he got off his stepstool, Bush looked like a slightly bruised Danny deVito, short, running to fat, smiling but not sure why. Oh, and short, too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM

Man. Amos, I am glad you watched the debate or I'd have to ask myself if I was watching the wrong channel.

Tom Brokaw said afterward that the Republicans heard Bush say the things they want him to say, while the Democrats were impressed by John Kerry. I agree. I was trying to picture some of the neo-cons that I know listening to Bush- and I suspect he is all they heard.

On the other hand, John Kerry was intelligent, fluent, his body language was comfortable and focused and on target. Bush- if his face had been flushed he could have passed for being slightly inebriated. He slouched, he smirked, he repeated - and repeated - -and repeated- his key words, he very often did not address a single pont that John Kerry had made.

But yes. I can believe that those who think Bush is on the right track STILL think he is on the right track.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Mickey191
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

I think Kerry handled himself very well-his facts & figures on the mark. He drove the point home when he said there were more Americans killed in july then in june. more killed in August then in July, & more in Sep't. then in August.

BushBaby sometimes looked angry, and at times, as if sucking a lemon.

I think it was Leno who said Bush would have a prompter in his ear, so he could get the answers from President Cheney. Anyone spot it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:43 PM

What I saw tonight was a triumph for Kerry. What others saw was a win by Bush.

What we all saw and what we all think won't matter a bit -- now the media will put their spin on it and tell the American people not only what they saw, but also what to think about it.

Where is Don Firth?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:47 PM

As usual, people see it (and everything else) through the tinted screen of their own perceptions (e.g., prejudices and establised biases).

That means: Bush supporters saw it as a Bush win. Kerry supporters saw it as a Kerry win. Am I surprised by this? No.

I was a bit surprised at how well Kerry came across in his general presentation. I didn't expect that. Bush seemed a bit tired, but they always do after 4 years of being president. :-) Well, except for Bill Clinton, anyway.

Bush made a little speech at the end that sounded almost biblical. I think he quite possibly believes in everything he is doing. If so, that's quite worrisome.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:51 PM

Was it my set, or did Bush have an unusual orange glow about him?   The past few days they have talked about Kerry's tan, but he seemed pale next to Bush.

And who dressed Laura and Teresa?   Was it in the agreement that the wives would wear nearly identical dresses?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: emjay
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:55 PM

Bush hesitated and seemed to grope for something to say. Frequently he didn't respond to the question and certainly not to what Kerry had said. I saw Kerry writing as Bush talked and Kerry seemed to respond well, both thoughtfully and intelligently to anything Bush said. Kerry's talking about the number of deaths that increased each month was a very telling part NBC interviewing a group of undecideds in Ohio showed several indicating that they thought Kerry had won.
Sadly when the local station interviewed locals none seemed to have changed their opinions--they still admire Bush--but this state is solidly in the Bush camp anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:30 AM

LittleHawk, you said that Bush sounded almost biblical at the end. Check out the thread I started called "Bush As American Saviour - Seriously." You won't believe your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:03 AM

Oh, I have...I have...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Bush
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 04:43 AM

If I was referring to a decent man, I'd say--"Poor George..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:53 AM

I was impressed by both sides of the debate. I think Bush was more articulate under pressure than I'd ever seen him. He appeared to think quite well on his feet and showed a keen awareness of world events. Kerry perhaps for the first time presented a 'complete' and consistent position at one time and place, and was on the attack.

I know that both teams practised like hell and had such a playbook full of rules for the debate that it seemed like a straitjacket was imposed on them, but the results last night made me feel better about our choices and proved that indeed there is a choice to be made.

I'd give Kerry the edge for two reasons: A normally verbose speaker, the short rigorous time limits on the answers/ responses (2minutes/ 90seconds) could have made his answers truncated or incomplete, but instead made him perform quite intelligibly. Secondly, as a challenger, he won by 'not losing'. He looked Presidential.

This was mostly a draw, however, and its already being spun like sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peg
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:12 AM

talk about repeating--robomatic, you have pasted the same response into two threads!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM

The critical observation is that President Bush demonstrated only the ability to stay on script. He never answered any substantive claim or charge. When faced with mostly factual information, and challenges to his policy decisions, the President fell back to his canned responses.

Contrast that with Kerry. The Senator was engaged in the debate in a very real way. He presented his plans, he challenged the premises, and he continually pressed the President on his programs. He responded (unlike the President) when his positions were challenged with facts.

The only people that matter on this are the undecideds, the swing, the great middle. I believe Kerry will be shown to have gained in this group.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Tweed whoisalsotweed
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

Chimpanzee in a Suit V. Lincoln....Lincoln wins

Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM

If you watched NBC, did you notice how, in split screen, they kept shifting Bush up and down so the top of his head would be level with Kerry's? If you noticed the level of the podiums there was a noticable offset across the split, and it kept shifting up and down as Bush alternately leaned over and stood up straight. Not faulting the pool camerapersons (FOX btw) for doing it - just a little distracting is all.

Also - 11 year old daughter observed - "Dad, they are both animals...
Kerry looks like a horse, Bush looks like a turtle"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:26 AM

by midnight east coast time, all the pundits were saying Kerry 'won'...even Republicans....the question was just whether anyone cared. Some Republican were saying "well, Kerry talks better, but I trust Bush to bash them terrorists for me more than I do Kerry"...or the equivilent.

I sure hope some of them get it thru their heads that there are other issues to be concerned about.......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

This morning I heard an interview with someone from the Gallup polling organization. He said, in effect, their poll gave it to Kerry, 53 to 37.

He also said that because a challenger comes in against an incumbent with a less-known aura or image, that it was particularly important for Kerry to make a good showing, and it was in fact expected that he would improve his image vis-a-vis Bush, but that the amount he picked up was extremely impressive.

Asked about what he thought made such an impression on Kerry's behalf, he thought it had to do with personal impression, and especially speaking ability, which was commented on by a large number of poll responders.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:44 AM

Tia - Not that I want to defend Fox, but what you saw on NBC was not the Fox pool feed.   My understanding is that Fox was responsible for providing a pool feed which is cut by a director and did not feature the side by side shots, as designated by the debate committee. I believe that C-SPAN would have used this feed. The individiual cameras were also made available to the networks, but they basically "take at risk". They could not be sure when the operator would adjust the shot.

Having worked in control rooms, I can tell you that each cameras is operated by individuals - the camera operator set up their camera shots to prepare for the director to take their shot.   Once the shot is ready, if the director likes the angle, the director will call for the technical director to take the camera. Since it is a live event, the cameras will shift to adjust for the subjects movements.

What NBC, and other networks, were doing was creating their own broadcast from the available cameras. Not having direct control of the camera operator, they had to do the best they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

I have to say that, regardless of who won and who lost, the debate last night was well conducted, featured some cleanly delineated differences in the candidates, and allowed some welcome interchanges between the two. The debates remain the single best event in the presidential campaigns, allowing something beyond sound-bite decision making and personal-attack volleyball. Both men came off much better in person than they do during stump speeches, convention appearances and attack ads.
It is always striking that, despite the personal animosity and mud-slinging, the debate format seems to bring out the best side of the candidates. I believe its akin to war. It's much easier to do killing at a remote distance from the enemy than it is chin to chin. To see both men shaking hands in front of the American flag and at least attempting to argue real issues gives me, as it always does, more faith in our process.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for the insight Ron.

Excellent point L EJ. I have been feeling better about the whole situation today, and I think you put your finger on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

You could say that the two men in question are inherently more decent than their promoters and campaign managers. They are superior to the $y$tem that trots them out in front of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:29 PM

It certainly imposed a human scale to the issue, didn't it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:36 PM

I watched the debate on TVLand.

Oh wait, that was Herman Munster, not John Kerry.

Kerry was just like all of those product packages that shout at you: New! Improved!

And then you realize it's just the same old tired product inside that didn't change at all but was packaged differently.

Subject: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Genie
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM

Curious thing about the mainstream TV 'news' channels.

Building up to the debate, I kept hearing about how fantastic Kerry's oratorical experience and skills are but how stiff and cold he is, and how style, image, body language, mannerisms, etc., were "as important as" what the candidates say. They kept referring to things like Al Gore rolling his eyes or invading Bush's personal space or Dubya's dad checking his watch during his debate with Clinton.   They also built up how folksy, down-to-earth, and "comfortable in his own body" Bush is and how formal and academic Kerry comes across.

Some networks (e.g., C-Span and CNN) showed a split screen during much or all of the debate; others pretty much focused on whoever was speaking.   It was reported that people who did not see much of the candidates' nonverbal reactions thought the debate was more of a tie, while those who did see that "reaction" feed tended largely to see Kerry as the victor.

Now the post-debate spin seems largely to focus on any "factual errors" or "inconsistencies" in Kerry's statements -- or on the verbal statements made by the candidates in general.   It seems that, since Kerry pretty clearly seemed calmer, more poised, and more confident than Bush -- especially while reacting to his opponent's statements --, the media have decided to DE-emphasize the "style" and focus on the verbal message.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:52 PM

Both candidates surprised me, a little. I don't agree with Bush's policies, or "vision", but he was a little more competitive than I expected. He learned a new word - denigrate - and used it several times correctly in sentences. He said something a little weird when he was talking about the mother of the killed soldier - something about not being able to love her the way he should - but I haven't read any reports that picked up on it, or read a transcript to see if I heard what I thought I heard, and anyway it was minor. He didn't make a convert out of me, (any more than Kerry probably made converts from the Bush camp,) but I could see more clearly what it is that Bush supporters want and think they're getting from him, and why they're so willing to turn a blind eye to the devastation in his wake.

I think what Kerry was able to do very well was to reassure his own supporters that they're not backing a dud. I've heard a lot of people say that they're voting AGAINST BUSH who may feel a lot more comfortable saying they're voting FOR KERRY, having seen this debate and seeing the contrast between the real Kerry and the caricature of Kerry that the republicans are trying to sell us. I think Kerry did really well. I wish that he could always choose his words as deliberately and confidently as he did last night.

From what I've read, the republican spin machine is going into overdrive trying to do damage control, and I think things are going to get very nasty. That's probably a safe prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

The AOL group surveyed over a million people and handed the debate to Kerry 53% to 47%

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM

"Oh wait, that was Herman Munster, not John Kerry."

Unfortunately, there are many Americans that were watching the debate on that level.   I have a friend who considers himself a staunch Republican who told me that he watche a "little bit" of the debate before he fell asleep. He wondered why they were only talking about Iraq.   I mentioned that the idea behind the debate was that they were going to focus on Iraq and national security and he replied "oh." And of course, he thought Bush won.

If you are looking for Herman Munster, you will find Herman Munster. If you want to see Bush as the village idiot, you will find the village idiot. Most of us watched the debate with pre-conceived notions, and we found EXACTLY what we wanted to find.   I don't think many of us really watched with an open mind.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:42 PM

I have mentioned up thread that I thought Bush held his ground better than I thought he would, smirks or no. ANd I was glad to see KErry do better than I worried he might. They both looked a lot more human afterwards. Which (for Bush) is a major accomplishment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

Before the debate I said on this forum that both sides would declare victory, and the media would declare Kerry the winner and say the race is tightening.   Exactly what happened.   So predictable.

The most honest and telling response was on CSPAN who had a camera on Lockhart after the debate. McCoury went to Lockheart and without knowing the cameras were rolling asked what he thougt.   Lockheart responded "We had it as a draw".   That is the only honest response of the evening.

Most polls had Kerry the winner but had almost no change in the polls.   ABC had Kerry the winner of the debate but had the polls at 50% to 46% before the debate and 51% to 47% after the debate.   I guess the big loser was Ralph Nader- he went from 4% to 2%.

More important is the internals of the polls.   What you find in looking is that Kerry won on style and Bush won on subtance.   On issues of leadership, consistency of message (flip flopping) and sincerity Bush landslided Kerry.

There are three elements of the dabate.   The one day reaction, the week reaction and the effect on the polls.    I think Kerry made a number of mistatements which will haunt him this week.   1. Subways closed during RNC concention- not true 2. Never called Bush a liar- he is on record calling bush a Liar on numerous occations 3. The Global standard before going to war   4.   Spent 200 billion on Iraq- only 120 billion- the other 80 is for Afganastan.

The DNC is making a video of Bush facial expressions during debate.   The RNC is making a video of Kerry mistatements during debate.   Which do you thing will play better?

The vast majority of voters are simple people.    I think Bush kept his message simple and pounded it in.   Kerry was more eloquent but all over the place.    We will see which strategy was more successfull.    Last election the polls all had Gore winning the first debate but losing ground in the polls.   Dick Morris made the statement that with more wins like that he would be out of the election.   Should be an interesting week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM

"That was the only honest response....."

Larry:

What definition of "honest" are you using? Are you implying that those responses given by others that thought otherwise were _dis_honest?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:58 PM

"On issues of leadership, consistency of message (flip flopping) and sincerity Bush landslided Kerry"   Larry K - you heard EXACTLY what you wanted to hear. Thanks for proving my point.   

Most people feel that Kerry did a good job of explaining his stance. Bush kept up the usual rhetoric and talking points that his handlers fed him.   It isn't working.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:16 PM

"1. Subways closed during RNC concention- not true 2. Never called Bush a liar- he is on record calling bush a Liar on numerous occations 3. The Global standard before going to war   4.   Spent 200 billion on Iraq- only 120 billion- the other 80 is for Afganastan."

Looks like Larry listens to Limbaugh!!!! Amazing how the disinformation gets passed around.

1. Yes, subways WERE closed during the RNC convention. They were not allowed to pass under MSG.
2. There is a difference between saying the administration lied and Bush lied.   
3. Do the math. 80 & 120 = 200. Kerry was talking about the war on terrorism. Yes, he did mention Iraq in the previous sentence, but the conversation was on how much we are spending to fight this war.

Even IF the above were true, these are really weak points.   Why is the Republican way to twist and turn their opponents words instead of using their own words to get their message across? The reason, their backs are to the wall.   People fall for the BS. You fell for it. You listen to Limbaugh and buy his blabber as the truth.   It is a real shame.