BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for the insight Ron.

Excellent point L EJ. I have been feeling better about the whole situation today, and I think you put your finger on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

I have to say that, regardless of who won and who lost, the debate last night was well conducted, featured some cleanly delineated differences in the candidates, and allowed some welcome interchanges between the two. The debates remain the single best event in the presidential campaigns, allowing something beyond sound-bite decision making and personal-attack volleyball. Both men came off much better in person than they do during stump speeches, convention appearances and attack ads.
It is always striking that, despite the personal animosity and mud-slinging, the debate format seems to bring out the best side of the candidates. I believe its akin to war. It's much easier to do killing at a remote distance from the enemy than it is chin to chin. To see both men shaking hands in front of the American flag and at least attempting to argue real issues gives me, as it always does, more faith in our process.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:44 AM

Tia - Not that I want to defend Fox, but what you saw on NBC was not the Fox pool feed.   My understanding is that Fox was responsible for providing a pool feed which is cut by a director and did not feature the side by side shots, as designated by the debate committee. I believe that C-SPAN would have used this feed. The individiual cameras were also made available to the networks, but they basically "take at risk". They could not be sure when the operator would adjust the shot.

Having worked in control rooms, I can tell you that each cameras is operated by individuals - the camera operator set up their camera shots to prepare for the director to take their shot.   Once the shot is ready, if the director likes the angle, the director will call for the technical director to take the camera. Since it is a live event, the cameras will shift to adjust for the subjects movements.

What NBC, and other networks, were doing was creating their own broadcast from the available cameras. Not having direct control of the camera operator, they had to do the best they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

This morning I heard an interview with someone from the Gallup polling organization. He said, in effect, their poll gave it to Kerry, 53 to 37.

He also said that because a challenger comes in against an incumbent with a less-known aura or image, that it was particularly important for Kerry to make a good showing, and it was in fact expected that he would improve his image vis-a-vis Bush, but that the amount he picked up was extremely impressive.

Asked about what he thought made such an impression on Kerry's behalf, he thought it had to do with personal impression, and especially speaking ability, which was commented on by a large number of poll responders.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:26 AM

by midnight east coast time, all the pundits were saying Kerry 'won'...even Republicans....the question was just whether anyone cared. Some Republican were saying "well, Kerry talks better, but I trust Bush to bash them terrorists for me more than I do Kerry"...or the equivilent.

I sure hope some of them get it thru their heads that there are other issues to be concerned about.......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM

If you watched NBC, did you notice how, in split screen, they kept shifting Bush up and down so the top of his head would be level with Kerry's? If you noticed the level of the podiums there was a noticable offset across the split, and it kept shifting up and down as Bush alternately leaned over and stood up straight. Not faulting the pool camerapersons (FOX btw) for doing it - just a little distracting is all.

Also - 11 year old daughter observed - "Dad, they are both animals...
Kerry looks like a horse, Bush looks like a turtle"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Tweed whoisalsotweed
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

Chimpanzee in a Suit V. Lincoln....Lincoln wins

Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM

The critical observation is that President Bush demonstrated only the ability to stay on script. He never answered any substantive claim or charge. When faced with mostly factual information, and challenges to his policy decisions, the President fell back to his canned responses.

Contrast that with Kerry. The Senator was engaged in the debate in a very real way. He presented his plans, he challenged the premises, and he continually pressed the President on his programs. He responded (unlike the President) when his positions were challenged with facts.

The only people that matter on this are the undecideds, the swing, the great middle. I believe Kerry will be shown to have gained in this group.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peg
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:12 AM

talk about repeating--robomatic, you have pasted the same response into two threads!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:53 AM

I was impressed by both sides of the debate. I think Bush was more articulate under pressure than I'd ever seen him. He appeared to think quite well on his feet and showed a keen awareness of world events. Kerry perhaps for the first time presented a 'complete' and consistent position at one time and place, and was on the attack.

I know that both teams practised like hell and had such a playbook full of rules for the debate that it seemed like a straitjacket was imposed on them, but the results last night made me feel better about our choices and proved that indeed there is a choice to be made.

I'd give Kerry the edge for two reasons: A normally verbose speaker, the short rigorous time limits on the answers/ responses (2minutes/ 90seconds) could have made his answers truncated or incomplete, but instead made him perform quite intelligibly. Secondly, as a challenger, he won by 'not losing'. He looked Presidential.

This was mostly a draw, however, and its already being spun like sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Bush
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 04:43 AM

If I was referring to a decent man, I'd say--"Poor George..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:03 AM

Oh, I have...I have...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:30 AM

LittleHawk, you said that Bush sounded almost biblical at the end. Check out the thread I started called "Bush As American Saviour - Seriously." You won't believe your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: emjay
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:55 PM

Bush hesitated and seemed to grope for something to say. Frequently he didn't respond to the question and certainly not to what Kerry had said. I saw Kerry writing as Bush talked and Kerry seemed to respond well, both thoughtfully and intelligently to anything Bush said. Kerry's talking about the number of deaths that increased each month was a very telling part NBC interviewing a group of undecideds in Ohio showed several indicating that they thought Kerry had won.
Sadly when the local station interviewed locals none seemed to have changed their opinions--they still admire Bush--but this state is solidly in the Bush camp anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:51 PM

Was it my set, or did Bush have an unusual orange glow about him?   The past few days they have talked about Kerry's tan, but he seemed pale next to Bush.

And who dressed Laura and Teresa?   Was it in the agreement that the wives would wear nearly identical dresses?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:47 PM

As usual, people see it (and everything else) through the tinted screen of their own perceptions (e.g., prejudices and establised biases).

That means: Bush supporters saw it as a Bush win. Kerry supporters saw it as a Kerry win. Am I surprised by this? No.

I was a bit surprised at how well Kerry came across in his general presentation. I didn't expect that. Bush seemed a bit tired, but they always do after 4 years of being president. :-) Well, except for Bill Clinton, anyway.

Bush made a little speech at the end that sounded almost biblical. I think he quite possibly believes in everything he is doing. If so, that's quite worrisome.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:43 PM

What I saw tonight was a triumph for Kerry. What others saw was a win by Bush.

What we all saw and what we all think won't matter a bit -- now the media will put their spin on it and tell the American people not only what they saw, but also what to think about it.

Where is Don Firth?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Mickey191
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

I think Kerry handled himself very well-his facts & figures on the mark. He drove the point home when he said there were more Americans killed in july then in june. more killed in August then in July, & more in Sep't. then in August.

BushBaby sometimes looked angry, and at times, as if sucking a lemon.

I think it was Leno who said Bush would have a prompter in his ear, so he could get the answers from President Cheney. Anyone spot it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM

Man. Amos, I am glad you watched the debate or I'd have to ask myself if I was watching the wrong channel.

Tom Brokaw said afterward that the Republicans heard Bush say the things they want him to say, while the Democrats were impressed by John Kerry. I agree. I was trying to picture some of the neo-cons that I know listening to Bush- and I suspect he is all they heard.

On the other hand, John Kerry was intelligent, fluent, his body language was comfortable and focused and on target. Bush- if his face had been flushed he could have passed for being slightly inebriated. He slouched, he smirked, he repeated - and repeated - -and repeated- his key words, he very often did not address a single pont that John Kerry had made.

But yes. I can believe that those who think Bush is on the right track STILL think he is on the right track.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

When he got off his stepstool, Bush looked like a slightly bruised Danny deVito, short, running to fat, smiling but not sure why. Oh, and short, too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

That is no way to talk about deer.... Shame on you!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Don't forget that famous "Deer in the headlights" look of Bush's. It was there again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:20 PM

Bunch of commie Canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

From the Toronto Star:

...An ABC News poll of 530 people had 47 per cent suggesting Kerry had won the debate, 36 per cent saying Bush was victorious and 17 per cent suggesting a tie. But the same voters surveyed said the debate hadn't changed their minds about who they'd vote for.

Kerry argued during the debate that Bush should have spent more money guarding American seaports, airports and nuclear and chemical plants in the wake of 9/11 instead of ushering in major tax cuts that benefit the richest Americans most.

"Those aren't my values. I believe in protecting Americans first," he said.

Bush, who often leaned on his podium in a casual stance, attacked Kerry for voting against increased funds for Iraq but was met with a sharp retort.

"I made a mistake in the way I talked about the war. The president was wrong in invading Iraq. Which is worse?" Kerry said.

The Massachusetts senator opened the debate by thanking the University of Miami and moderator Jim Lehrer for hosting it and expressing condolences to the people of Florida, who have been devastated by four hurricanes since August.

Bush sometimes smirked and tightened his lips in frustration during some of Kerry's answers to Lehrer, while Kerry smiled and often shook his head while Bush spoke. ...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Bobert--


Well, I hope and I suspect that your somewhat slanderous description of the undecided voters is off the mark.

Bush was certainly acting on your assumption--his favorite mantras "mixed messages" and "don't say 'wrong war, wrong place, wrong time' " pounded in over and over so that if a brain can't register more than 2 phrases in 90 minutes, it'll get those.

But I thought they will also realize that Kerry has self-confidence and a consistent message, and that Bush misled both Kerry and the rest of the electorate in how he started the Iraq war, continues to mislead it and therefore as a CEO should be fired. Kerry had to establish himself as a credible leader, and I would think, to any undecided voter, he did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:07 PM

Guest - I hate to break it to you, but you were tuned to the Food Network. That was Emeril who you saw doing the roasting tonight.   Next time, check your TV Guide!! You missed a well run debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

As for Bush winning hands down, I'm afraid you must have been watching a different cartoon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:59 PM

My respect for both men actually increased, just listening to what came out of their mouths. But when I read their faces and tried to feel what was in their souls, Bush shriveled and died. He is very small of soul.

Kerry is a man for the ages. One of Bush's less fortunate tactics will be to make the Presidency so Plebeian and Philistine that Kerry will appear too good for the job. Only an idiot would fall for such a crude jackhammer job, but...it has been known to happen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

Bush WON - hands down!!!

As terrible a public speaker Mr. Bush is......poor Kerry was caught, trapped, skinned and broiled on an open-spit....before a live audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

Hey, Amos. Intellegence ain't in these days... Now get back to yer all-night NASCAR station.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:49 PM

I think Kerry won by a small margin and was far better at marshaling facts, while Bush relied on his hominy grits to sound folkie. Bush acted cute, Kerry acted intelligent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

Well, now that I've seen the debate, I must agree that, given the fact that facts and intellegence had to be checked at the door, that Bush won hands down...

Hey, how about that move that Stroker Ace pulled on Kid Drogin on that last lap??? I mean, screw Iraq and them terrorists. Did ya see that move?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:32 PM

Hey, Chuck. Hope you're feelin' well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:28 PM

hey brucie....lol   it's 10:25pm,edt,and the debate just ended on Live TV...all networks including PBS!but dont belive it if you hear it from dan rather!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:16 PM

Ah, man, I got stoned and missed the debate? Like, what date is it now, man?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM

"Oh...ohhhhh....sayyyyyy...cannnn....youuuuuu....seeeeeeeeeee---"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM

Bobert,

Chill, dude. It ain't over til the f*t lady sings.

A

Subject: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

Well, fir those of you who were gomnna watch tonight's debate between Kett and Bush, you can take a pass on it. Yup, whatever TV station or newspaper you read, Bush has allready been declared the winner...

Yep, in addition to the dumbed down media the various "undecided" voters who will be asked their reactions have average I.Q.'s in the low to mid 80's (with a tail wind) and therefore the dumber candidate will better relate to their un-decided-ness...

Actually, given Bush's anticipated thrashing of Kerry, many in the media are considering just calling all three debates off entirely so their viwers won't be inconvienced by the pre-empting of their 24/7 Stroker Ace NASCAR programing...

Details at 11............

Bobert